Is Centrelink Giving out Money Too Easily These Days? Do We Need Tighter Laws to Prevent Centrelink Fraud?

xdigger on 08/12/2020 - 14:05
Last edited 08/12/2020 - 14:15

Is Centrelink Giving out Money Too Easily These Days? Do We Need Tighter Laws to Prevent Centrelink Fraud?

I was shocked to read on the news today that someone with "five joint home loan accounts" which I read as multiple investment properties could still access a huge amount of money from Centrelink.

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/courts-law/mum-who…

More disturbing is the fact that if she had kept quiet and didn't make her TV appearances she wouldn't have been caught. How many undetected Kim Castles are out there making a killing off Centrelink by lying low and gotten quiet hardworking Australians to fund their holidays and lavish lifestyle?

Do we need stronger policing of Centrelink funds and stronger regulations to ensure only the needy gets what they need and not give dishonest dole bulgers an unfair advantage in owning investment properties when young Australians today are having a hard time even getting their first homes? Also, is the single parent payment paraxodically bad for society by indirectly encouraging single parenthood (cue single moms with four kids by different dads living in social housing spending Centrelink money on drugs, etc)? In an alternate reality where the single parent payment didn't exist in the first place, do you think that those single moms would have reconsidered having kids as she wouldn't be able to afford them, and probably actually had to work an honest job and live a honest life, thus reducing crime rates?

Constructive thoughts and civil discussions are welcomed.

Poll Options expired

  • 310
    1. Yes, we need more stringent requirements surrounding the disbursement of Centrelink money.
  • 320
    2. No, we are not called the Lucky Country for no reason.
Financial

Comments

  • GG57 on 08/12/2020 - 14:13
    +103

    As the "news" article linked relates to the outcome of a (successful) legal prosecution, it would appear that the laws are already in place.

    • xdigger on 08/12/2020 - 14:15
      +2

      If she had kept quiet and didn't make her TV appearances she wouldn't have been caught.

      • GG57 on 08/12/2020 - 14:19
        +19

        Not necessarily.
        The 'tip-off' could have been from a neighbour who knew that she was receiving Centrelink payments whilst she and her partner living at the same address; regularly took holidays together; had five joint home loan accounts, three joint bank accounts, and two joint personal loans.
        By making TV and magazine appearances, it just proves how stupid she was.

        • xdigger on 08/12/2020 - 14:30
          +3

          By relying on tip offs from neighbours and such, it means there are others who could go uncaught if their neighbours weren't aware of their Centrelink payments. In any case should we even be encouraging neighbours to dob on each other who may not know the full situation, rather than imbue Centrelink with more investigative powers like the ATO have to uncover fraud?

          • GG57 on 08/12/2020 - 14:38
            +26

            @xdigger: No one said that Centrelink is relying on tip offs. My understanding is that cases of fraud are brought as the outcome of any number of investigative measures for compliance (including sharing of information with the ATO).

            Why are you blaming Centrelink, when it is the fraudsters / criminals who are at fault?

            • Scrooge McDuck on 10/12/2020 - 04:06
              -7

              @GG57: We need to end intergenerational welfare dependence. It causes unnecessary misery amongst those born into it, and our economy can't afford the deadweight especially as automation is rendering more jobs redundant. A simple solution is to require long term recipients to be sterilised for continued access to welfare payments.

        • DoctorCalculon on 08/12/2020 - 21:31
          +11

          You must be dreaming, mate!

          How many people do you know of discuss their private financial positions with total strangers let alone their close families?
          This is why the checks and balances need to be more stringent before handing out taxpayer funded dole money rather than relying on an unreliable dob-in service.

          • macr0hard on 09/12/2020 - 13:42

            @DoctorCalculon: I know my neighbours - the wife is on centrelink, husband works his 4ss off and pays for everything in the house, including allowances for his wife, $250/week. She's on full centrelink payment because on paper they're divorced and she's a single mum who doesn't work. I know because he's really frustrated that his wife has too much money and spends stupidly, keeps on changing furniture in the house every few months so complains to me all the time, but because of their cultural background he's not able to do anything. I so want to tip off Centrelink but he's a really nice guy and I'm not sure what to do.

            • squall3031 on 09/12/2020 - 16:15
              +2

              @macr0hard: Let the guy work his issue out himself.

            • Willco88 on 09/12/2020 - 20:50
              +2

              @macr0hard: Cut the allowance.. if she's receiving free money from Centrelink not paying for anything…. Or tell him to dob her in himself…

            • The-Kremlin on 09/12/2020 - 21:58
              +1

              @macr0hard: He should divorce. She sounds like an entitled brat.

              • squidz on 11/12/2020 - 20:02
                -2

                @The-Kremlin: "they're divorced and she's a single mum who doesn't work"
                how do u divorce a widow?

    • sarahlump on 09/12/2020 - 20:48
      +3

      Woman jailed for two years…woolworths $400m wage theft….hmm,bonus for shareholders. Someone here's a crook an it seems pretty obvious who should be prosecuted……..

  • brad1-8tsi on 08/12/2020 - 14:24
    +78

    It would be good if they started with the Catholic church who continue to draw JobKeeper payments for months after they have made staff redundant.

    Centrelink can't be that easy. My 19yo couldn't get it after her casual job disapeared. 7 months with no income.

    • jv on 08/12/2020 - 14:48
      +21

      It would be good if they started with the Catholic church who continue to draw JobKeeper payments

      How about Australia Post who have been get jobkeeper whilst making record profits?

      Churches have been closed for most of the year…

      • GG57 on 08/12/2020 - 15:07
        +28

        And how about the real estate agents asking their employees to refund JobKeeper payments out of their commissions.

        And the likes of Gerry Harvey who have paid large bonus payments to executives whilst claiming JobKeeper to 'keep their businesses afloat'.

        I'm not critical of the policies such as JobKeeper; I'm critical of those that attempt to rort the system (at taxpayers expense).

      • brad1-8tsi on 08/12/2020 - 16:38
        +2

        Churches have been closed for most of the year…

        That's not relevant in the situation I'm referring to.

        The catholics employ more than just priests and those they employ aren't necessarily Catholics (because to insist on a Catholic in an administrative position would be illegal).

        • jv on 08/12/2020 - 16:41
          -1

          because to insist on a Catholic in an administrative position would be illegal

          why ?

        • sjj89 on 09/12/2020 - 11:45
          +4

          The church has the right to do that, they are exempt from those laws

      • serpserpserp on 09/12/2020 - 20:49
        +1

        There are many businesses out there that have basically made strong Net Profit positions from JK. It is interesting to watch a lot of businesses tap into it as a just in case, but are now just building their retained earnings for a nice little dividend down the track.

      • frewer on 10/12/2020 - 15:52

        To be fair, Miss or Mrs Christine Holgate did more good thing for small post office than the big 4 banks. And no Im not a postie nor its employee

      • boretentsu on 12/12/2020 - 16:07

        Australia Post has done more for me than the Catholic church in 2020

        • jv on 12/12/2020 - 16:08

          The might explain your funny walk…

          • boretentsu on 12/12/2020 - 16:22

            @jv: Taking the high road as always

    • mapax on 08/12/2020 - 15:17
      +1

      She should have been able to get jobseeker if she couldn’t get jobkeeper?

    • ozhunter on 08/12/2020 - 15:22
      -6

      I know someone who quit their job and got jobseeker straight away.

      • Cyphar on 09/12/2020 - 13:58
        +18

        No you didn't.

        If you quit your job, the seperation certificate will reflect as much and you are on a 12+ week waiting period.

        • lunchbox99 on 09/12/2020 - 14:03
          +16

          Anecdotes mean more than real evidence ever could. I heard Homer Simpson likes to sleep nude in an oxygen tent because he believes it gives him strange sexual powers.

        • ozhunter on 09/12/2020 - 14:10
          -2

          A number of waiting periods were waived. I'm not sure if he mentioned if he had a even had a job or he just applied anyway, but was definitely getting it.

    • SlavOz on 08/12/2020 - 20:13
      +3

      It would be good if they started with the Catholic church who continue to draw JobKeeper payments for months after they have made staff redundant.

      Got a source for this?

      I'm genuinely curious, do you want all charities, schools, and hospitals to pay tax or just the religious ones that you don't like?

      • Dr Ginger on 09/12/2020 - 10:55
        +10

        Personally I would like to see all charitable orginisations held to the same standard. If a church can do the same as every other charity it should get tax free status.

        If a church is not a charitable orginisation and just a business selling religion then it should be taxed like a business.

      • TheBird on 09/12/2020 - 16:43

        Got a source for this?

        I don't have a source for you (it was in the news about Apr/May, but it's correct.

      • belongsinforums on 09/12/2020 - 18:29

        The church is a charity? News to me

        • SlavOz on 09/12/2020 - 20:26
          -1

          Yes mate - Red Cross, Caritas, and Vinnies are charities.

          • belongsinforums on 09/12/2020 - 23:13

            @SlavOz: No, the church. For example, the Catholic church. Or the church of England.

            • SlavOz on 10/12/2020 - 08:52
              +1

              @belongsinforums: The Catholic Church owns, funds, or operates most major charities in Australia and around the world.

              Tax them and you're taxing hospitals, schools, and missionary/volunteer programs.

              • belongsinforums on 10/12/2020 - 10:29
                +2

                @SlavOz: Private schools get public funding plus their private stash of money. Missionary programs are a form of ethno cleansing. Can't speak for the rest. But hey, as long as god says it's okay to destroy cultures because of heresy…

      • The-Kremlin on 11/12/2020 - 23:17

        ALL the religious groups should pay tax.

    • lunchbox99 on 09/12/2020 - 14:01
      +1

      What evidence do you have that they have received payments for staff that are no longer employed? How would you know that unless you actually worked there and saw the claim details.

      • brad1-8tsi on 10/12/2020 - 20:53

        Brother-in-law was made redundant from a church business in June. He was on Job Keeper until then. Job Keeper is paid to the employer who then disburses it to the employee.
        He went straight onto Job Seeker.
        In November he was contacted by Centrelink asking why he was receiving both Job Keeper and Job Seeker at the same time.

    • The-Kremlin on 09/12/2020 - 22:00
      +2

      Religious groups have been rorting the system for centuries.

    • psylence on 11/12/2020 - 11:54

      Does your son live with you?

    • ThithLord on 08/12/2020 - 14:33
      +80

      wow you really swallowed the poor people are druggos pill, didn't cha?

        • ThithLord on 08/12/2020 - 14:54
          +48

          Forget the shtick of migrants willing to do this work,

          Are you seriously suggesting someone should uproot their entire life to take up a seasonal job on bugger-all money (seriously - the Aust Government is trying to subsidise this and they still can't get people there, international or not), in an incredibly casualised workforce? With barely the minimum workers rights? Move to the country to take up a casual job? For next to nothing pay?

          In the article you linked they even state this:

          However, Ms Fox said it took her a month to organise the paperwork with the relevant Government departments and labour service providers — a problem for many farmers who often source many of their causal workers at the last minute, depending on when the crop is ready.

          "I really am very doubtful that many farmers have access to this scheme because the paperwork and time involved in chasing how you access the program from both ends is exhausting," she said.

          That took them a month to finalise, even though they've had barely 150 applicants. What does that tell you?

          Farmers can't plan these harvests months in advance. They kick it all off at the drop of a hat.

          Editing to add to your comment below:

          ThithLord I even quote from an impartial non-Murdoch news site the ABC so hopefully there's no bias in the news informing you of your false presumption of my view.

          Trust me - the ABC are incredibly biased. They're chaired by Ita Buttrose - a fricken huge ex-Murdoch hack

          • njastar on 09/12/2020 - 13:58
            +5

            @ThithLord: I know people who have done fruit picking and it's ridiculously hard work in bad conditions. My friend said his body ached for a month before he was strong enough for the job, and had live in a hostel owned by the farm over, who charged him over 200 dollars a week for the privilege. You can make a lot of money doing it, but you got to be on top of it, it's a performance based job after all.

            • ThithLord on 09/12/2020 - 14:25
              +3

              @njastar: Yeah sounds totally viable for the 7% of un-employed Australians!

          • macrocephalic on 09/12/2020 - 15:17
            +12

            @ThithLord: Not to mention the number of them who've been found to be dodgier than 7eleven when it comes to paying workers. Only employing female immigrant workers, underpaying them, forcing them to live in their homes, controlling where they're allowed to go and who they can see.

            There are generally two reasons we import migrant workers: either we put them in such poor conditions that local workers can't or won't do it, or, we want to employ trained workers but don't want to pay to train our own.

            There will always be people who don't reasonably want to work - that's why unemployment under ~5% is normally considered full employment. These people are a small problem in the scheme of things, just look at the money that's wasted in other aspects of society. Better to give these people a little bit of money to keep them off the streets and out of trouble than risk hurting people who genuinely need help.

            • Scrooge McDuck on 10/12/2020 - 04:44
              -3

              @macrocephalic: People should take up any job they can before relying on taxpayers to provide for them.

              Beggars can't be choosers.

        • dstar012 on 08/12/2020 - 15:26
          +9

          Generally they have horrible upbringings with unfortunately low chance of breaking the cycle of poverty. Lots of these people grow up damaged by family violence, mistreatment by the system, and finally turn to drugs (which makes things even worse).

          Having a decent family and finishing school can make a HUGE difference. A lot of those people don't even get a chance to succeed at life.

        • smartazz104 on 09/12/2020 - 11:31
          +5

          we still need to import third world countries fruit pickers because Australians on the dole couldn't be arsed to get off the couch and go to work

          No one is going to pick fruit for the measly pocket change offered as payment you pillock.

          • Scrooge McDuck on 10/12/2020 - 04:45

            @smartazz104: Because they can get paid for not working, that's the problem.

            • smartazz104 on 10/12/2020 - 08:43
              +5

              @Scrooge McDuck: If farmers want workers they should offer them a wage that isn’t way below minimum wage. Anyone who thinks unemployed people should just go and pick fruit is a damn moron.

        • Splatzzz on 09/12/2020 - 20:01
          +7

          Hella missing the fact that 1500 workers who WANTED to work at farms couldn't be placed in jobs because farmers couldn't get away paying Australians $6/h

          https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2020/11/08/australi…

        • Steakz on 10/12/2020 - 17:42
          +1

          You know what, since you're such hard worker do pack your shit and go fruit picking for $3/h. Off you go…

    • Jolakot on 08/12/2020 - 14:44
      +16

      There's a fundamental flaw with your thinking.

      The overlap between people who logically plan out lives and kids, and people on JobSeeker or single parent payments, is tiny.
      You can see the same effect with people who believe that increasing prison sentences for non-white collar crimes will lower crime. Petty thieves don't have a spreadsheet with a list of crimes and find the best risk/reward activity based on legislation, because people with those skills generally have better options than petty crime, like embezzlement (or going into politics).

      The only proactive solution I've seen for single parenthood is to incentivize welfare recipients to use long-term birth control or undergo sterilization, which is an absolute minefield.

    • StalkingIbis on 09/12/2020 - 15:29

      Strong families are great for society and the economy.

  • ThithLord on 08/12/2020 - 14:33
    +65

    Hey mate, I'd advise you stop treating www.news.com.au as some sort of bastion for the poor old tax payers.

    The story you've linked is far, far from commonplace so please, pay it no attention.

    Australia's dire forecast is purely and unequivocally at the hands of the LNP Government:

    Through the past six years of the global recovery Australia has tumbled from near the top of OECD rankings to among the losers on unemployment, underemployment, wages growth, productivity, income per person, median wealth, retail sales, infrastructure development, interest rates and the value of the Aussie dollar.

    • poboy on 08/12/2020 - 15:00
      +5

      Mate. Some political parties are established to have people vote against their own interests, so the inequality can be accelerated.

      Often the people that say they are the most 'x', have plenty of evidence showing the contrary.

      Our pockets are being fleeced, while the fleecers point at scape goats that are more similar to us than the politicians.

      • ThithLord on 08/12/2020 - 15:37
        +30

        Pack it up, boys - we got one. The ol' razzle-drazzle all parties are the same!1!! It beggars belief how loudly people will champion that catch-cry. You're an embarrassment.

          • ThithLord on 08/12/2020 - 15:53
            +10

            @pharkurnell: The Liberal party have accomplished so little to Australia that they can't even form a 75th Anniversary video about those accomplishments - they did make this video, but basically wrote every Labor accomplishment as their own. Read into that what you will, but hey - this article sums up what the LNP said they did for Australia, accidentally going on to describe what Labor actually did for Australia. I know ydgaf cos you're just a quiet Australian but I linked you, anyway

            • BenDoverson on 09/12/2020 - 09:02
              -3

              @ThithLord: If you think linking a heavily progressive journal bashing the centre right party is a smoking gun reply then please reconsider.

              Here you are trying to convince others of believing you but instead fighting their propaganda with your side's propaganda. Both of you have been sucked in, which again leads people to believe no party is better than the other.

              • ThithLord on 09/12/2020 - 10:27
                +8

                @BenDoverson: In what realm is using an independent journalist "propaganda"? Your side's propaganda lol you're another embarrassment. You can't refute anything said in the article so it's written off as propaganda.

                What's your source of information - Sky news?

                • BenDoverson on 09/12/2020 - 10:51
                  +3

                  @ThithLord: You seriously don't know that independent Australia is a progressive journal?

                  You do realise I can call myself ironman but it wouldn't make me one right?

                  This is why you don't post articles from your own echo chambers online with half baked knowledge of things, have a look in the about us section of 'independent' Australia, they let you know of their political leaning early on.

                  You know what's even better than pushing partisan propaganda? Not realising you're pushing it for them. They named themselves 'independent' so gimps like you would fall for it. Well you did, hook, line and sinker.

                  • ThithLord on 09/12/2020 - 14:00

                    @BenDoverson:

                    You seriously don't know that independent Australia is a progressive journal?

                    Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said I didn't know that - I do know that. It doesn't change anything I said, bruv.

                    Do … do you know what Independent Journalism is? Do you understand the concept? Did you read their About Us section after the initial shock of them GASP outlining their progressive stance?

                    If you do understand that, and still think they're not independent, can you please show me where the bastions of independent journalists congregate, mate? Where's the real independent journalism?

                    • BenDoverson on 09/12/2020 - 15:03

                      @ThithLord: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/independent-australia/

                      https://i.redd.it/ae64cnhtgh711.jpg

                      Just fyi they are further left of the ABC measured on the same scale. I listen to all sources and deduce what is reasonable. Doing so has allowed me to humanize my political rivals and understand where they come from, even making me change some of my views.

                      Point being there is no independent unbiased journalism anymore but the reddit link above shows which ones come close.

                      • ThithLord on 09/12/2020 - 15:31
                        +3

                        @BenDoverson: Fantastic resource, thanks for that. FYI you are caught up on whether they "lean" left or right - that has nothing to do with being Independent.

                        Do you see the Factual Reporting scale there? It's on high.

                        Also, f#ck the ABC.

        • macrocephalic on 09/12/2020 - 15:18
          +1

          Most are shit, some are more shit than others. They're certainly not all the same.

          • ThithLord on 09/12/2020 - 15:29

            @macrocephalic: I don't agree but that's a far better assessment than at the hands of those in power that week. The staggering amount of corruption coming from the LNP, blatant corruption, cannot be ignored.

  • AustriaBargain on 08/12/2020 - 14:34
    +18

    No way. Humanity is headed towards a universal income because robots will rip apart the economy as we know it, very soon. There won't be enough jobs and soon we'll have to invent human services jobs just to keep people sane rather than about money. Centrelink payments can keep someone "sustained" for years and as useless as job centres are they are nowadays fairly committed to finding people jobs. It's a recipe for success compared to having people become homeless beggars or petty criminals for the same small amount of money. And centrelink payment is less than universal income will be. Our current Centrelink spending will seem like a drop in the bucket compared to universal income.

    And when low income people have small amounts of money, they spend it all. It all goes to rent, which supports landlords. Or to food, which helps our grocery stores out a lot because people even without jobs have a regular amount of money to spend. It helps the landlords of and electronic stores near drug dealers. It's overall good for the economy for money to be spent. We are heading towards a massively unknown future so giving people money for now until that future arrives is a good thing. These people are your neighbours, your customers, your tenants, your friends, your family.

    • Cartman2530 on 08/12/2020 - 16:32
      +2

      The robots are already coming into my place of work, but its a lot slower than you think. The company i work for also wants to upskill any people affected by the robot installation.
      I assume they will be made redundant if they don't want to upskill, so its on the people to better themselves as well.

      What i see happening, is people will have to increase their skills or get left behind, trying to survive on meagre Centrelink benefits.

      I'm sorry, but universal income is a pipe dream, there will be massive wealth inequality and poverty before that happens, look to history to see that.

      • AustriaBargain on 08/12/2020 - 17:28
        +3

        People will always want more than the universal income so most people would work. But the hours for most people just won’t be there.

    • SlavOz on 08/12/2020 - 20:16
      +2

      Robots don't grow on trees mate. They need to be built, tested, assembled, delivered, serviced etc.

      • crashloaded on 08/12/2020 - 23:16
        +1

        Paid for too.

      • Loopenip on 09/12/2020 - 16:39
        +1

        Automation still displaces workers on a large scale, it just pushes employment from some lower technical roles to higher technical roles

        • modiika on 09/12/2020 - 17:31
          +2

          but not 1 job for 1 job. That's the issue, the need for bodies will shrink.

          But i am also skeptical that automation is that close to replacing most professional work, nor most in person work (retail, hospitality). But it will have an impact.

    • trapper on 10/12/2020 - 13:17
      +1

      We already have a lot of robots doing a lot of jobs, and you know what?

      More people are employed right now than at any other time in the history of the world. (excluding the current Covid-19 blip)

      Automation doesn't reduce the total number of jobs at all - what it does is massively increase productivity.

      This is why you can go out and buy cool stuff for cheap that would take literal years of labour to fabricate by hand without the assistance of any robots.

  • brendanm on 08/12/2020 - 14:34
    +3

    Unpopular opinion - We need a reverse baby bonus. Give $5-10k to people to have vasectomy/tubal ligation. The only people that will take up this offer will be people that don't want kids anyway. We will then be rid of the the "single mother with 7 kids" problem, and kids that are born will actually be loved and cared for.

    Less child abuse, less welfare payouts, better education outcomes for children etc etc.

    • AustriaBargain on 08/12/2020 - 14:43
      +20

      But birthrate growth is in decline in Australia. We're going to have a big baby problem for the kind of growth we need. Or we'll need to intake lots of people from overseas, which makes you lot even less happy than poor natives having babies. If the government wanted to stop child abuse they would spend more money on the poor, not less. If some poor people need help sorting themselves out before they go on a dark path later on in life, then we could be offering that help. Like church that any Australian can access for all kinds of assistance, but with an evidence based and government funded approach. Shouldn't we be trying to give every child good lives, even if their parents are poor or can't work or just can't figure out how to do basic things properly themselves. Maybe those parents themselves just didn't have a good life in childhood and that's why they aren't ideal parents today. In any case we all learned what Australia really thinks of this idea with Abbot's "women of caliber" comment. It was unAustralian to even say such a thing out loud, no one in the country would have a bar of it.

      • brendanm on 08/12/2020 - 15:17
        +4

        You can't give every child a good life if the parents are terrible.

        You say we need more people, bit this is only to prop up the need for the economy to grow every bigger.

        Another issue is that if people are born into a life of derros and welfare, it's far more likely they will also do this. You then have even more people who have a net negative contribution to society.

        • Quantumcat on 08/12/2020 - 15:35
          +8

          You're kind of proving the point that these people need support, so that the next generation can do better, and the next generation do even better. You don't want a race to the bottom where the children get to feel the full negative effects of their parents' situation (eg parents can't afford to send them to childcare so they start school behind, being hungry at school, not having the right equipment or getting teased for their wrong uniform etc and not finishing school) and then have an even worse life than they did, and their children have an even worse life. That is just increasing the number of people who aren't contributing to society. If we support them, instead as the generations go on we will be increasing the proportion of people that contribute.

          • brendanm on 08/12/2020 - 15:50

            @Quantumcat: You are completely ignoring the fact that these kids are more likely suffer physical, sexual and emotional abuse. But it's ok, because we are building that population, come on GDP!

            I don't think any of you people know the difference between parents who aren't "the best", and ones who are alcoholics, drug addicts, and just downright bad people.

            • Quantumcat on 08/12/2020 - 16:04
              +8

              @brendanm:

              these kids are more likely suffer physical, sexual and emotional abuse

              How am I ignoring it? We need to support the families so that this doesn't happen! Your solution is to ignore it and hope they abuse each other to death. People in these situations are not bad people, they are just facing very tough and difficult circumstances and their ways to cope are not the most productive. If they get support, they can get out of their hole and live a better, safer, happier, more productive life.

              • brendanm on 08/12/2020 - 16:27
                +1

                @Quantumcat:

                We need to support the families so that this doesn't happen

                These people don't want kids. What sort of "support" do you give someone who's willing to abuse someone who is completely dependent on them?

                Your solution is to ignore it and hope they abuse each other to death

                No, my solution is to stop these people from having kids. Until then, take the kids off these scumbags and give them to people who will love them.

                People in these situations are not bad people

                People who abuse children, who have no means of defending themselves, no way to get out of this situation, and who are being terrified day in day out, are the very definition of bad people. They are the absolute worst of the worst.

                • Quantumcat on 08/12/2020 - 16:36
                  +2

                  @brendanm: If you had experience with people and families in these situations, or indeed just a functioning empathy gene, you would think differently. I'm sorry that you aren't able to see beyond the end of your nose.

                  • brendanm on 08/12/2020 - 16:39

                    @Quantumcat: I actually do have experience with these people. There is NEVER, EVER, an excuse to hurt a child. Just because these people have stuffed up their own lives, they cannot take it out on someone who didn't even have the choice to be bought into this world.

                    But hey, if you're ok with child abuse, more power to you I suppose. Me, it is the thing that I absolutely cannot stand.

                    • Quantumcat on 08/12/2020 - 17:01
                      +2

                      @brendanm: Sigh. I'm not ok with child abuse. Most families that have abuse in it, are underprivileged, undereducated, poor, and with other stressors going on. By supporting families doing it tough, the precursors that lead to abuse are removed. The children in these families have a better chance of growing up happier, and with the full benefit of education, so they won't create families in future with the same or worse problems.

                      • brendanm on 08/12/2020 - 17:09

                        @Quantumcat: Or, you can be proactive, and incentivise people who don't want to have kids, to not have kids.

                        Why would you possibly want people who don't want kids, to have kids?

                        I'm also not saying to remove any help from kids in these situations, quite the opposite actually. I just strongly advocate for them not to be in these situations to start with.

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