Hi Everyone,
This was just announced an hour ago (link below)
https://www.caradvice.com.au/903101/victoria-to-tax-electric…
Seems to me like we are going backwards. Now Victoria and SA are the only 2 states in the world with these rules.
What do you guys thing? is this the right direction?
@brendanm: You aren't paying for "burning fuel". It's a way to pay for road infrastructure that links payment to km travelled. In the case of ICE cars, fuel consumed is a proxy for km travelled. So you're not being charged for using your own solar power, you're being charged for driving on the road.
yes it is a tax. It's a tax for using roads that EVs are not currently paying, and everyone else is paying.
Is this difficult to understand or something?
@lunchbox99: Is reading difficult for you? They collected $10b more in fuel excise than they spent on roads.
@brendanm: So your argument isn't with the unfairness of EVs having to pay, or that you're somehow being taxed on your own solar power generation? It's that a car usage tax is too high (revenue exceeds expenditure)?
I assume you've been campaigning about this unfairness for years in relation to fuel excise?
@lunchbox99: It's that people repeat "the fuel excise pays for the roads", when it actually doesn't. It just props up the budget in other places to cover up government incompetence.
How about all the byproducts, waste and pollution created by making batteries that go in to EVs? Those things are super nasty to make as are solar panels.
We rarely hear about that side of things, its always about how clean and perfect the EV is when its far from the truth.
Its cleaner from the point of oils, fluids and fuel that a ICE vehicle needs but there is still a way to go.
It's a hot potato but is inevitable. Roads need to be maintained and lower income people will end up carrying the burden for road taxes if it is all collected through fuel because they will be the ones with the ICE cars the longest. A better idea would be to wipe fuel tax and GPS the entire highway and road system and charge a tax for what you use. Technologically it can be done already. Some roads get more use than others so the high volume on these roads would have to be taken into account because the cost per car for maintenance would be less not more like on the current toll systems. Incentives to go electric are not required anymore. The market is taking care of that.
Nah man, people who buy EVs should pay nothing. That's the fairest outcome. The family on minimum wage in their 20yo pile of crap should pay, the douche in his Tesla should pay zero. /s
Yeh I'm good with being tracked where I drive by the Govt thanks. Smartphone is one thing (which I have some control over) - but where I take my car is much more specific
Yep the moment we're forced to have GPS or other exact location tracking in vehicles (and no doubt the ability to remote disable them as has already been looked at by Nissan) then well I won't mention my thoughts here about that but can take a guess.
This can be done with privacy taken care of. Ask Tim Cook :-p
But seriously if you think you can’t be tracked you’re dreaming. Unless you use cash and change cars and rego plates your movements can be traced quite easily with public and private CCTV and plastic money tapping.
You know that most road maintenance is paid for by income tax, right?
Well it shouldn’t be.
They need to hold off and let EV's catch up to petrol cars in terms of their financial payoff. I get that they're losing fuel excise, however it still isn't viable against a compative petrol car without the excuse taken into account.
Yep, fossil fuel vehicles have a 100 years of economies of scale to be a cheaper sticker price
Plus they have gotten away with killing millions with cancer
lol ice cars and cancer
It's a stretch to say that ICS cars kill 'million's with cancer, but appropriate to say that it kills several thousand and disables thousands more each year.
I agree, I'm not against fair taxes on electric vehicles, but it's too early to be discouraging adoption
Where’s the Medicare cancer tax on ICEVs?
Will people stop buying EV because of this? I know I won't if I can afford one but not sure others. The incentive/bonus for EV should come at the time of purchase - that is what is lacking in Australia. Paying the use of road/infrastructure as PAYG is fair.
Excellent, rich white people who buy electric vehicles in order to virtue signal ought to be heavily taxed. They can afford to pay it. They are already reaping a fortune from middle class welfare programs, time to pay back some of it instead of demanding their lifestyle choice be subsidized by the poor people who drive fossil fueled automobiles.
This : Spot on. It is like many years ago the government subsides heavily the feed-in tarrif when the roof solar panel was introduced. Only people with their own properties were able to reap the massive benefits. People renting, living in apartments/units etc lost out big time. While they still have to use electricity and generate greenhouse gas , they were virtually exlcuded from making contribution in this space just because of their property ownership status ( essencially financial positions). And they, as a matter of fact, subside these with property. Go figure what does that mean in terms of wealth distribution in the commuities.
And also this really calls for a means-test based EV purchase subsidy program to be introduced in Australia to get more people to afford the EV in the first place. From there, the level playing field is created and then, any subsequent stratigies such as how to tax the use of road etc can be discussed in an equitable manner and with meaningful benefits to the community as a whole. Prior to that, in the economic sense, it is just forcing people who cannot afford EV to pay for people who can, aka, robbing the poor to enrich the big end of the town.
What if a middle income Asian person drives an EV? Is it fair then?
Personally I think this decision is a show of ignorance from the government. They only see the direct consequence of having less petrol cars on the roads however do not factor in the environmental benefits provided by electric vehicles. Their mindset is fixated on money whereas the rest of the world understands the importance of reducing co2 emmisions and protecting the planet. This will need to change soon or Australia will likely lose its 'one of the most cities' title which will adversely affect tourism and immigration. Super narrow thinking that should get much backlash from the rest of the world. We live in a first world country stop behaving like a third world one…
Australia will always have tourism. We are the only country in the world that have kangaroos and koalas.
Sure, its not going to the bottom of the charts, but it will definitely lose its top spots in the long term with such little care for the environment. Plus, I'm not visiting a country for the animals, I'm visiting for natural beauty, which is clearly regarded as dispensable in the eyes of the government.
People that come to Australia for natural beauties isn't going to concerned that we don't drive EV in the CBD.
@whooah1979: It more of a mindset thing, sure taxing EVs isn't disastrous, but how far will they go?
@1d0ntkn0w: A fair tax should be equal to the lost revenue from going from ICE to EV.
If there is no tax than who is going to pay for road maintenance in 2040 when EV adoption is 100%?
@whooah1979: At least let EVs get a footing in Aus before taxing them for it. See any other country's handling of EVs for better alternatives. There is not going to be a 100% adoption unless people are forced to change. Taxing early adopters is not the way. Some articles quote that they are expecting to generate about 30 million a year. That's just petty. The amount of environmental benefit far outweighs the 30 mill expected.
At least let EVs get a footing in Aus before taxing them for it.
It's easier to tax the 1% high disposable income earner today than to wait 10 years and tax xx%.
@whooah1979: Fair, but the easiest option is never the best. Plus EV owners deserve compensation for all those co2 emmisions their cars aren't emitting.
If that's worth nothing in your eyes then I'm arguing with the wrong person.
@1d0ntkn0w: I haven't done the numbers but it looks like they are getting a discount on their road use.
I don't know man, they have these things called Zoos overseas too.
Australia will always have skilled workers and migrants wanting to come here.
Guess time will tell, I ain't a prophet
people coming here for tourism don't give a crap whether or not everyone drives EVs and neither do I
The last Holden Commodore cost $1,000,000,000 to design ………….by all reports it is a fantastic car , world class…….pity no one wanted one as to busy buying high ground clearance suv's , and work utes…….
It cost so much as the designers had to design engine to pass pollution laws…….
Tesla design costs for pollution control laws =$0.
I am a Veteran who served in the air force in Australia….
I fought only in Australia against other air force cadets…. long story…
I hurt my back doing my duty………Veteran Affairs admitted liability, and I got payment for pain and suffering.
Vet Affairs refused to pay me weekly wage compensation…….I fought this for 15 years……….finally claimed against the defence superannuation.
I got 15 years back pay , ya. I brought a tesla, again ya……..6 months latter = ev tax.
I will fight this tax…………
Who's with me.
Let's match on vic government……
The only one to blame for the failure of the Commodore is their parent company GM.
To appease US auto union, they refused to sell the Australian built cars in the USA (I believe limited to 40,000 units per year)
Plenty of sedans still get sold, and it is a good alternative to a Toyota Aurion or c class Mercedes in terms of value (not in terms of build quality lets not kid ourselves)
how much money did you get tho?
Stupid question but curious. Were you taxed for that massive influx of income when you got it? That means 45% of it would have been taken back.
Let's match on vic government……
You're not marching anywhere with your bad back…
Its so typical of those from the leftish side of politics that once again they think everyone else should pay for their things and not them.
Lol what a moronic take.
No pay, no play. Make the system a level playing field.
While EVs owner should pay their way. I think that they already do from the low emissions. EVs seem to be mainly used in or near CBD where there are air quality problems from diesel particulates.
SA have zero plans to electrify their bus fleet, are not extending tram network and don’t plan to force dirty diesel delivery trucks and vans out of inner and near city - content to let fine particulates cause health issues. Perhaps once they have a plan a little more comprehensive that “tax the peasants” a road and infrastructure type tax would be reasonable.
Shouldn’t apply to old purchases but money needs to be come from somewhere
Unless we have better technology to extract energy from renewable sources how is EV powered from coal with the mining of metals for batteries any better then ICE
@Peanut money - you need to do some reading. Huge lack of knowledge on display there.
You can’t believe everything you read
EV to ICE is like smoking 20 cigarettes a day instead of 25
You’re going to die eventually
Advancement in hydrogen fuel cell technologies (zero emissions) would be a better substitute
If you plug your EV into the grid to recharge in Victoria, this is exactly the same as emitting 177 grams of CO2 for every kilometre you drive. That’s roughly equivalent to driving a 2.5-litre SKYACTIV Mazda CX-5 (Combined Cycle, according to Greenvehicleguide.gov.au).
And yet cyclists still pay nothing. One day…
Bicycles doesn't meet the legal definition of a motor vehicle.
Yet they take up the same space on the road as a car, with the 1.5m rule in effect, and actually increase the net pollution because on a busy road they act as a rolling roadblock where cars behind them have to constantly accelerate and break instead of maintaining an economical cruise.
Peer reviewed statistics? It's OK, the City of Sydney gets it. Removing car lanes for dedicated cycle lanes so you can only blame the car in front for getting in your way. Fixing it for ya.
Bicycles doesn't meet the legal definition of a motor vehicle.
Nah, yeah… but they kinda do… Under Aust. Road Rules, it defines "Vehicles" as;
15 What is a vehicle
A vehicle includes—
(a) a motor vehicle, trailer and tram, and
(b) a bicycle, and
And nearly all the road rules that apply to a "motor vehicle" also apply to "bicycles". Bicycles are also allowed to use roads AND are defined under the Aust. Road Rules as "Vehicles", so, yes, if they are using the roads, they "should" be paying… (Maybe at least some form of CTP??)
But with that being said, my scooter has about $65 in motor vehicle tax on it, a bicycle, by this logic, would have about $5.
Cyclists are mobile particulate collection units. They breathe in and retain the fine stuff your car is emitting. Should not be taxed for this public service…😁
That's not too bad actually. Say you travel to and back from Melbourne to Sydney, it'll cost you about $45 in taxes.
Nearly the cost of petrol to drive that distance in a small 1-1.2 turbo car (swift/polo ect.)
Averaging 5litre/100KM on a highway.
You still have to pay for electricity. This is a backwards tax. But what do you expect from the Victorian government?
f**kin @ssholes trying to milk everyone however way they can, we should be getting 2.5 cents per km for saving the environment
Edit: also thank god i dont live in VIC
Let’s see how long NSW can resist
just another example of Australia being left behind while the world moves forward
Actually I think you will find this is another example of Australia leading the world. Other countries are looking to impose similar schemes.
but their smart enough to let the industry mature
hmmm I think the price hikes in electricity and charging stations over there say otherwise.
Do we have any data on electric cars vs non on wear and tear etc on the roads ?
Until then the electric car owners are enjoying subsidies big time from petrol users ( huge fuel levies ) even with this small tax in my opinion .
I know its hard to think !
In my opinion, the worst affected for Victoria will be the plug in hybrids because although the levy is 0.5c cheaper, they still pay for petrol albeit at reduced volume.
Taking into account battery degradations and so far the furthest plug-in hybrids can go is up to 54kms, if the car is used in country Victoria they will be slugged massively with high kms charge AND still paying for petrol as once the charge is finished, the car would run about 8 to 10kms per litre of fuel.
The alternative would be getting a non-plug in Hybrids like Lexus Hybrid which would be unlevied AND still saving about the same with Plug in Hybrids.
This is really a bad decision and I would hope a strong fight back is to be mounted like it currently is in SA and NSW (I think SA they don't have the numbers in Upper House).
Barring this, if you're still into EV, a full EV that goes at least 400-500kms (like Kona's 450kms) will at least save you the petrol.
Next they'll start taxing our solar power and rain tanks
look we have an American federal government - what can you reasonably expect?
Sanity ain't in the mix…
To be honest, everytime we save from Federal Govt through tax cuts, I feel it's the states that claw them back.
Example, from next year landlords will have to pay at least $350-$650 per year for gas/electricity tagging. Now add $400 to this EV tax. That's $1,050 worth of new tax in a year and for those who didn't get COVID support (because say they still have sick leaves, or only lose 1 day in a week work), this is impost.
Remember, they still want to make Stamp Duty a yearly tax.
We really need to fight back.
even if you vote green what u gonna get?
Even Trump has mandated increasing fuel efficiency. He is not taxing electric cars. Scummo is not American.
scummo is a paid agent of a foreign power….. his policies and the timing of his actions on those mirror policies make that obvious to all but those who won't see things as they are.
Well yes you should pay a service charge if you are still connected to the power and water grid for "emergencies". Someone has to pay for the infrastructure to deliver both to your home from the source, and unless you're completely disconnected you should contribute to that infrastructure (pole/wires and pipes/pumping/treatment respectively).
I do pay, I give 30% of my income every year. Why don't we tax breathing air and walking on a sidewalk while we're at it, sOmEoNe hAs tO paY fOr It!
The future income generated from EV taxes will be barely anything, all it does is dissuade more people from buying an EV.
No you don't. Just saying you do doesn't make it true.
Funny thing is that in some countries, government gives incentive to EV buyers just like the subsidy for our solar systems. While in SA and VIC, no incentive, no promotion, you pay a lot upfront thinking that you could save up from petrol, in the end still need to pay more.
solar subsidies are being slashed - look at WA's backwards strides….
Electric vehicles should be subsidised not taxed. Ridiculous. Just increase the fuel excise.
They are not telling you that electricity is NOT free.
Hence this
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/politics/fede…
Then in 20 years they'll claim to do some minor thing supporting electric cars that most 1st world countries will already have, then claim it to to be world class, whereas it will actually be subpar… Triple the cost and 20 years too late
Although government should be encouraging the uptake of EV to transition to cleaner alternatives its fair that EV contributes taxes like traditional ICE cars. Maybe a better alternative is to overhaul the system completely and move to a KM based tax for all cars rather than a hodge podge system of fuel taxes and KM taxes. Tax them all the same regardless of efficiency and encourage the uptake of EV though other methods like rebates, interest free loans or ICE to EV trade-in incentives.
Seen a lot of biased articles about this with no background or information to why this is proposed. Seems like a petrol lobby smear campaign to me.
The funding for roads and infrastructure comes directly from petrol taxes.
Inquiry into electric vehicles - Parliament of Victoria
"In Australia, according to the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development, public sector road-related revenue totalled $28.7 billion in 2014-1514. Fuel excise contributed about $11.03 billion or 38%, down from about 44% in the early 2000s. This revenue will come under direct threat with increasing electric
vehicle market adoption."
It's not a pretty thing to have but if they have to get the money from somewhere to build the roads and infrastructure.
They forgot to factor in higher GST as most EVs are more expensive than petrol equivalent. In addition, PHEVs still use petrol so still paying GST and Excise. Higher GST on electricity due to EV home charging.
Govt initiated inquiry can be skewed fit their narrative but objectively these facts were omitted.
That's true but the purchase price is once off payment, roads and bridges are an ongoing cost.
Phevs are charged less, at 2c per km in the proposal
People are looking at this like a plan to stop people wanting to buy an EV. When in fact it's a forward looking plan that's accepting and open to the idea of a growth in EV's and a plan to adjust finances to where it needs to go with the future of driving about to change.
There's plenty of other details that the smear articles don't mention like upgrades of electricity grid needed, energy security with more cars charging every night, charging station infrastructure that needs to be built etc.
There's plenty of other details that the smear articles don't mention like upgrades of electricity grid needed, energy security with more cars charging every night, charging station infrastructure that needs to be built etc.
You're right and it's great because they have a plan for that..oh wait.
cyclists get free cycle lanes - bout time they paid a nominal sum specially because of their increasing numbers, and the associated medical costs of their hazard.
whats the difference?
So now you are getting double taxed, once on the price of electricity and again with this electric vehicle levy.
Disgraceful.
Oh really? What is the amount of tax you pay on electricity?
Seems to me like we are going backwards.
What's new about that? /s
The poll options aren’t very comprehensive.
Agree that roads need to be paid for and that electric vehicles need to be supported for environmental and heath reasons.
If the government needs to raise taxes due to lost revenue from fuel excise, maybe try taxing multinational companies and billionaires their fair share.
Yes the tax collected =/ amount spent on roads because we gotta pay for other things like screw ups (eg Myki) and essentially social programs (eg job keeper). Unfortunately that’s just the cost of living in society.
You're right, it can be more comprehensive. I honestly didn't think this would explode the way it did!
try taxing multinational companies and billionaires their fair share.
LOL, try voting for a gov party not supported by big business
try finding a party that's not ….the system is broken which is why democracy has been abandoned.
all donations should be listed by law as received including gifts over 2k .
There is nothing keeping politicians honest and everyone should just stop voting till its law in all elections.
Fair enough IMO
2.5c/km is a pretty steep though.
It makes sense for the Govt to do this but it should be the Commonwealth Govt levying it not the State.
The rationale being that EVs don't use petrol (therefore the owners aren't paying the petrol excise which is a compontent of the total price per litre) BUT they do drive them on the roads…where you guessed it…the petrol excise is used to augment and maintain the roads.
Why should the rich get a free ride on roads whist everyone else must pay because if we dont put petrol in our cars..they wont move.
There are many other ways a tax could be applied to EVs…this is just the first of many to come.
Okay well done, you paid fk all of $2 a month to "maintain the roads" with your fuel purchases. Now the roads belong to you and you get to claim some false sense of authority over the fact that just because your fuel cost goes towards maintaining it, and anyone who dares drive across "your road" has to pay too.
It is an utterly foolish and downright selfish argument. The society should not be tied down to petrol cars moving forward.
so everyone pays for retrofitting cycleways but cyclists pay nothing makes your point selectively devoid of rationale
Someone who drives from Ballarat to Melbourne and back for work is up for an extra $1200 a year.
That's on top of your electricity costs and other vehicle costs.That also does not include any weekend travel.
The government does not even spend all the money that they collect currently from the current excise on roads. This is nothing but a blatant cash grab and another tax that punishes those who live outside the city.
Catch a train and a big secret is you can work the whole way .
The ev doesn't burn petrol. The owner may be charging it from their own solar panels, creating no emissions. Yet they are charged for running something they own, with panels they own, from the sun? As others have mentioned, others are subsidising ev to rescue emissions.
As I've stated further up, there is about a $10b discrepancy between the fuel excise, and money spent on roads. It's just another tax, on a tax, on a tax, as our lazy and inefficient politicians like to do.