So 20 years ago my mom had the water heater thing element cut in half (so I'm told) to reduce the power bill. Is this a thing?? Well time to reverse it if it's a thing. But problem is it's too expensive?? somehow…
Do we get a huge water heater to replace the little halve size mini fridge one?
What is the cheapest option to get hot running water to shower a few people…
Sure thing. If you're in a frost zone (defined in Dux manuals and others) you need to use a frost valve, sometimes two depending on location. In summer they get damaged because they use a wax filament and the excess heat from the panels cooks them. When it gets below 4 degrees or so, the valve opens up to prevent frost damage.
The dead-leg, or extension, whatever you'd like to call it keeps the valve away from the panel.
Frost valves are a separately purchased item to the unit itself.
Refer to this diagram.
Thanks very much for the explanation.
Seems like the Frost Valve is high maintenance also!
Fortunately, I don't live in the Frost Zone according to Rinnai (I have a Rinnai solar system with Gas booster, best of both worlds if you ignore upfront cost).
Interestingly, half of WA and NT are in frost zones. Didn't expect that.
Other than replacing the sacrificial anode every 10 years^ and draining the PRV, does a solar system with Gas booster require any maintenance.
^ yes should check/replace every 5 years, but water is soft where I live. I replaced a sacrificial anode in another HWU after 10 years and it was near new.
@JimB: It's hard to follow what some people are talking about in this thread when they say "solar hot water" but I'm going to assume you mean the evacuated tubes. I believe they are rated to -15C so less maintenance in the frost department but they still require a frost valve, solar rated pipe insulation, PTR valve etc. They are rated for hail but I've seen ones smashed by hail so take that with a grain of salt.
It all comes down to the installer.
There are a lot of factors but the Rinnai units in my experience are quite good and the customer service has been a breeze.
@Gauntlet: I have the Rinnai Sunmaster Flat Plate.
Only had it for less than a year, fingers crossed let's hope it lasts me at least 15 years.
Parents gas Stainless Steel Aquamax is over 20 years old and never had an issue.. if it did, I'd replace it with an instant gas system.
@JimB: Yeah, I'm probably a bit harsh on the solar collector panels but if you're not in a frost zone you shouldn't have many issues.
I just really like continuous flow units because of the efficiency and cheap installation cost.
I'm in Vic and I have sold thousands of replacement solar frost valves and lodged a ridiculous amount of warranty claims on the solar collector panels.
Best of luck though honestly.
@Gauntlet: Thanks, I'm in Melbourne.
Reason why I got Solar hot water was being I built a new house.
As a building requirement, you either have to have Solar hot water or water tank.
I chose Solar hot water, otherwise I would have installed a continuous flow unit. I doubt the gas I would save with the solar hot water system would ever amount to the higher up front cost of the solar hot water system.
Solar is best. I live in Sydney. From September to May, plenty sunlight, pretty much free hot water. Need to boost a little in winter. Have a Solahart Blackchrome 300L since 1998. Service every 10 years(change anode/relief valve/clean tank. Inspect/clean once a year.The thing is still going strong.
Cutting the element in half was just a plain dumb idea because it takes twice as long to heat up the hot water. Hence major inconvenience and false economy.
Hence no saving whatsover and your mum paid the dude for nothing.
Its what we call a SCAM!
Anyway if you have gas to the premises its definitely the way to go.
I hate to say it but if you've got a storage hot water system, using a smaller element won't change much.
You still need the same amount of heat to hear the water, and the same amount of electricity.
You mum probably just had the heat of the water heater turned down.
Going from 50C-40C makes a difference in running costs, but you can't really have a hot shower.
I use to shower at work for longer periods (after a 20 mins cycle ride). miss those days.
So the story changes as i speak to the mom. the friends advice was to change 24/7 heating to 18 hour heating. and a electrican was called out (why?) and he replaced the element. So how to reversed this?
we dunno why he changed the element… may 24 hour to 18 hour heating needs a diffeerent eleement?
20 years is a really long time for a hot water unit. The anode is probably eaten away totally by now so you're better off just replacing the whole unit.
New electric hot water systems are quite cheap and also a lot more efficient then what they used to be
'So 20 years ago my mom'
I'm guessing this story does not end well …
This one time - at band camp….
Changing the element (halving or doubling) doesn't really change the energy used to heat up the water. It will reduce or increase the heating time. Adjusting the temperature setting lower (if available) will reduce the energy bill.
Cold showers help reduce blood pressure and increase circulation
It's MUM, not mom. We are not Americans….yet.
We're more likely to be saying 母亲 soon
I don't live in Melbourne under Comrade Dan.
Yes, mum.
I got a timer put on the hot water circuit so it only runs from 10-4 which is when we generate the most solar power and were previously putting it back into the grid for only about 10c/kwh. Those 6 hours are plenty to heat the water for the day.
^ this +100.
Cheapest solution you can get. check your unit's element and anode. replace either them or the whole unit with an equivalent unit. Put it on a timer.
If you want to lay some money upfront to save money in the long run - replace with a heat pump. but it needs to be a decent brand as the cheaper ones do not have a good track record.
Installing solar on the roof just makes sense but really isn't part of this discussion.
Have shorter showers?
How long do you shower for?
4-5 mins max should be enough.
If you REALLY want to save money, you can try a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower
If you or your housemates are having 20 min long showers with… ummmm… some 'self care'… then yes your bills will be 4x normal.
I am not keen on throwing money at a problem that can be solved with conservation.
Shallow bath.
Share bath water.
Shorter showers.
Colder showers.
When washing dishes, have a tub of soapy warm and rinse on the rack with only a single jug of boiling water.
Shower after exercise instead in a public shower. More fitness. Yay!
Bikies (I am not sure if I am alluding to a blanket party or something else were men stand in a circle. You decide).
It's different levels of comfort I suppose, but I admire your thiftyness.
Are you on a controlled load rate for hot water? Maybe worth switching to controlled load 2.
Solar pumps are mechanical and will break over time and require maintenance. Get an solar panel system. Which have no moving parts and feed excess electricity into grid and get the feed in tarrif. Will work out cheaper than a solar pump over time
Assuming by solar pump you mean heat pump - depends on the heat pump. And how much you value your excess power…
would a heat pump hot water system work with my existing sun flux solar system?
Don't think so.
I hope everyone realises this is not a normal question to ask in a first world country, and that some of the responses on here are shocking.
The cheapest way to get get hot showers is solar hot water using evacuated tubes, and import the system from abroad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_collector
This was invented in Israel and is in WIDE USE in the developing world. Chromagen is a good brand.
Not sure if you're aware but Australia already has evacuated tube systems available and are actually very common.
I'm not sure you're aware that for the cost of buying one in Australia, you could import 2 or 3, at which point you don't need a warranty because you have two spares.
Those units would be non compliant with Australian law.
Refer to AS 4552:2005
All fittings have to be watermarked also.
@Gauntlet: Not true. Grey market goods are often of higher quality than stuff for the domestic market because they conform to outside standards which are almost universally higher than Australian.
Almost every other building code is more stringent than the Australian code. I believe we're the only country in the world that allows gluing gyprock sheets instead of screwing/nails. There's a good chance any import will have higher standards.
But hey, if you want to pay triple the cost of what everyone else in the world is paying, go ahead. I imported my double glazed windows and they cost 1/10th the Australian price and are higher quality.
@koalabargains: I'm not saying they are worse quality, that's a moot point, I'm saying that under Australian law they may not be an approved product. All plumbing products legally cannot be installed without certification. You can check on the VBA website for Vic for each individual product.
Saying a product is higher quality and that the product conforms to other safety standards is pointless because at the end of the day it comes down to what is legally allowed in Australia.
Saying a product is higher quality and that the product conforms to other safety standards is pointless because at the end of the day it comes down to what is legally allowed in Australia.
No. It comes down to what can practically be installed, not legally. According to the laws in vic, it's actually a crime to build things that do not conform to the building regs and the code. Do you see anyone following that? If that law were actually enforced, maybe 5% of Australian houses would pass certification.
What I am telling you is this: please don't say stupid shit like
All plumbing products legally cannot be installed without certification.
as if that means something.
A plumber will install whatever you want. That's a ridiculous statement to make.
@koalabargains: The government is becoming more strict on plumbers who install non-certified products and can impose penalties.
Please think about the real cost of installing non-compliant products -
- Risk of safety to the installer and user
- Insurance coverage if anything does go wrong, i.e. house fire or flood
- Legality Issues
- Future maintenance requiring non-standard sized parts (which is extremely common with imported plumbing products)
- Warranty Coverage
Certainly on a commercial job nonconformity is not as tolerated, a private dwelling shouldn't make it any different.
Also think about the people that buy the house after you, their safety and their convenience.
Just because people are breaking the law does not mean they should continue to do so or encourage others also, it is an appeal to popularity and not a valid argument. For example, just because so many people use their mobile phone while driving doesn't mean it's okay to do that.
The whole industry needs to be better governed as you yourself said, many houses do not conform to building regs.
The government is becoming more strict on plumbers who install non-certified products and can impose penalties.
No, the government is not. You have no proof of that.
Please think about the real cost of installing non-compliant products -
- Risk of safety to the installer and user
There is no risk to safety as I have said before products certified for the EU/US/UK are almost always to a stricter standard that Australia. I will give you on example - garage door openers. In America it is illegal/practically-unheard-of to sell one without a laser sensor. This laser sensor means that the garage roller door cannot shut if the laser line is broken. This means if a samll child or animal breaks the laser line, the roller door will not come down, and crush them to death. That is not a requirement in Australia. By your ridiculous logic, the user would be at risk by installing a foreign device which is immeasurably safer than what is sold in Australia.
- Insurance coverage if anything does go wrong, i.e. house fire or flood
If a building practioner has installed a product in your house and it fails, that does not affect your ability to collect on your home and contents insurance. Why don't you check your actual policy and see if there is a cut out for installing grey market goods. There is not.
- Legality Issues
Lol. That is meaningless. What about Spirituality Issues?
- Future maintenance requiring non-standard sized parts (which is extremely common with imported plumbing products)
Most products made for other markets are made at scale. The world does not end at Australia's bordeers. It is far more likely that a product intended for the EU/US/UK markets will produce significantly more units that anything aimed at the Australian market. Australia is 24m people. Someone is actually more likely to experience that problem if they buy things for the Australian market where products disappear within a few years. Ask anyone who bought a Phillips vaccum cleaner or Fiat car in the last 5 years. (Those have all been withdrawn from the market.) If you buy popular products in the EU/US/UK there will always be spare parts available on ebay/amazon, wherever. Because those markets have 800 million people in them.
And again, as I TOLD YOU, I recommend buying from abroad when you can purchase TWO OF THE ITEM for the cost of ONE of the item in Australia. In that scenario, you will ALWAYS have spare parts, as you have a SPARE UNIT.
- Warranty Coverage
And again, as I TOLD YOU, I recommend buying from abroad when you can purchase TWO OF THE ITEM for the cost of ONE of the item in Australia. In that scenario, you will ALWAYS have spare parts, as you have a SPARE UNIT.
You don't NEED an Australian warranty if you've got two units. Its cheaper, easier, and better to simply replace the unit than it is to try and enforce an Australian consumer warranty.
Just because people are breaking the law does not mean they should continue to do so or encourage others also, it is an appeal to popularity and not a valid argument.
Wrong. When the law is wrong, because it was created by union thugs to create middlemen and retard the building industry in Australia, it is absolutely the right thing to do to break the law.
The whole industry needs to be better governed as you yourself said, many houses do not conform to building regs.
The building regs are written by industry insiders and by-and-large is completely terrible. There are dozens if not hundreds of examples of crazy nonsense in the Australian regs.
We have RInnai continuous gas with temp controllers. Dial in the required temp then no hot water wasted adjusting the hot/cold. Great for kids too dial in 38 degrees then off they go.
In Qld, we installed a solar water system with the tank on the roof and 2 panels. Had hot water for months until it rained non-stop for 2 weeks and then the water was not as hot as it normally is. Checked it out and we had not wired the thing into any electricity. So yeah, if you are in Qld one of those will give you free hot water after you purchase the unit unless it rains non-stop for weeks. Probably not an option down in those southern Mexican states though.
Continuous gas. And take the silly water flow limiter out, you may need a certain amount of pressure for some systems. Or leave it in if it works fine, save the planet.
Fill up a pot of water and take it to the nearest public bbq hot plate to heat up
Put in bath.
Repeat until bath is full.
Enjoy the free hot water while reflecting that you just wasted a day of your life.
Please, homie, buy a good old metal bath tub, go to facebook, gumtree search for free logs free wood and such, put it underneath the metal tub, make a small fire, not too big if you dont want to boil yourself, beautiful hot tub and warm up the room at the same time
if you change the 18/24 heating to 24/24 do you need the electrician to come around?
problem reported as solved. electrician emailed enegrex
Join a cheap gym extremely close to your house. Workout hard then shower. If you don't have a cheap gym too bad.
What if it doesn’t take and you sweat all day. Your coworkers will think you are guilty of something - Seinfeld reference.
Lol. You just have to have the muscles to go with it.
Then you flex and tell them "This is man sweat to accentuate the sculpted man lines" :P
Can you elaborate on this..
Solar heated water is on the way out and the panels always end up needing maintenance due to plumbers not installing a 300mm long threaded rod on the frost valve as per the manufacturers instructions.
I should ask my plumber if he did this.