I want the next gen outback. I'd buy one on opening day. But I don't want a CVT.
Does anyone think they'll ever shift away from them?
It's one thing not being able to get an outback with a manual, I can deal with that. It's not a fun car anyway so rowing my own isn't essential. But I just hate driving CVTs.
Boooooo. Most.recent manual/diesel it is then.
For what it's worth, I have a 2020 forester and the CVT isn't terrible.
I was hesitant, but its very good for a CVT
That's fair and don't get me wrong I'll happily test it, but I'd rather a conventional automatic.
Glad you like your Forester!
Every CVT is different
Ok course! I've driven three though and didn't like the feel of any of them, so I'm doubtful I'll like another.
I've never driven a nice CVT
Has a nice CVT driven you?
Up the wall?
.
In Soviet Russia, car drive you
Won’t be long and cars won’t have gearboxes at all. Just a big battery pack and an electric motor. Maybe 4wds might have a transfer case (basic 2 spd box) for low range,
Well that's a different story ofc, if it's electric I don't really care, but I don't like the feel of a CVT with an ICE engine.
No. Why would they? It works well and that's their brand.
I personally do not like CVTs so I stay away from Subaru. If you like your current Subby, they're offering more of the same which is a good thing.
If you'd like to try something different, try a different brand.
I don't have a CVT on my current Subie - I've got an older Outback with a manual. What I really want is a new outback with a 6spd manual! But I'd take one with a regular auto. Don't know if I can stomach a CVT.
The thing is though, there's not a lot of competition for the Outback. You either buy a European car (with all that that includes) or an SUV. As far as I know there are only three AWD wagons in the market (the others being the Golf and Passat Alltrak) and I think it's safe to say that Subaru's AWD system is miles ahead of them (when not paired with a CVT).
The Outback is a fantastic car. I did contemplate a manual one once upon a time and I compared it against the Passat Alltrack.
I disagree that the Subby AWD system is all out superior. It is better offroad but as a highway AWD, the VW is better.
If you're looking at a vehicle that can go a little "offroad", there is a new archetype - sports utes. Chuck a canopy on and place a few cross bars and you can carry really long items and still have a massive boot.
A sports ute is a totally different vehicle though! They're huge and not very comfortable. The whole reason for getting a wagon with AWD is it drives like a car, is awesome on the highway, and can get you to the snow/the mud with ease.
Not to mention utes are expensive, worse on fuel, more emissions, and harder to park. I live in the city! Utes suck to drive in the city.
Having said that, I would love a new DMax when they come out, those things are indestructible.
@[Deactivated]: The big brand utes are indestructible. I see so many old rangers and hiluxes on the road.
True, they do cost more but they actually drive very well these days. The turning geometry and the addition of sensors make these things usable in the city and shopping malls.
I have driven my lifted Ranger into QV in the city so many times. Not difficult in the slightest.
(Oh, and the outback doesn't do mud. It does gravel roads but a Subby in actual wet mud? That's a very expensive tow.)
@[Deactivated]: Mate, go check out some youtube videos of Subarus going offroad. With the right tires you can take a Subaru 90% of the places you take a real 4wd.
I don't disagree that utes are good vehicles but I have driven a bunch of them and they don't drive anywhere near as good as a wagon, I'm sorry but that's just not true.
It's not that it's difficult to drive utes in the city, it's just easier to drive a smaller car with better visibility.
@[Deactivated]: Fair enough, I am a big fan of the station wagon form as well so I ain't knocking on it. I'm just saying that the combo I think you're after doesn't exist on a present day station wagon - offroady big cargo diesel powered geared vehicle.
The station wagon as a form factor is being honed as a suburban car to disappear into the history pages with the sedan.
You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the optional extras on the ute - creature comforts and offroadability. Look at the sales figures - ute sales are bursting at the seams.
Genres are now more defined for better or for worse.
@[Deactivated]: Utes generally have terrible driving circles and being ladder frame are a bit harsh and agricultural though they seem to be getting more car like with each new gen. It was a nice upgrade from a Triton to a Pajero. I've been really surprised and impressed with the comfort and performance of my Pajero as a town car and also on fairly extreme off road tracks. The monocoque body that "real" 4wders give Pajero's crap for is great as the vehicle is more car like, and my Pajero has easily gone anywhere other "real" 4wds have. Any further and it would be full on massive mod territory anyway for any vehicle.
I've towed vehicles out of muddy fields before in a 1992 Subaru Liberty. They do, do mud. Just nothing too crazy. Also you should see some off-road Suby videos, they handle really well even through water crossings! The new 2021 Outback AWD system looks awesome off road according to some of the review videos I've seen.
The new 2021 Outback I think looks pretty cool as they are bringing the turbo back. I was in the same boat as the OP, not keen on CVTs but that's the way of the future and after driving new Outbacks through work I soon got used to the transmission and it was nice and smooth. I don't think there will be many more manual models from Subaru as it's not really compatible with the Subaru EyeSight driver assist tech unfortunately.
@subywagon: I was very surprised by the new ute's turning circle. I have driven an old ladder frame HiAce and that was terrible but the new ones are good enough as a highway car.
Perhaps my definition of mud is different as I get stuck even with mud tyres. I drive in soup a lot.
@[Deactivated]: I live in Tassie, I know what mud is lol Take a look at this video of a suby going through mud
@subywagon: Lol. As per the first many many comments… open diff.
I didn't watch all the vehicles but I suspect all were the same. The first vehicle lost all its power to the front right.
The Forester was still a beast in its own right but it doesn't look anywhere near stock.
@[Deactivated]: Yeah it's pretty cool and doesn't have a diff locker :P I prefer my Pajero for off-roading such as that though, it eats it up. I haven't had to use the diff locker in mud like that yet. I've only really used the rear diff locker on steep muddy or gravely/rocky slopes when there is an obstacle as well in the way.
My friend used to take his stock through sand dunes. When I was working at the Suby dealer we had a lifted Outback come in with a snorkel for a service , it looked like something from a zombie apocalypse lol.
@subywagon: Sounds like an awesome set up you have.
I don't have a diff locker yet. Considering the ARB air locker.
I'm in Victoria and I do everything from sand to mud.
I love seeing a vehicle put through its purpose. Better a zombie survivor than a fully dressed offroader with four recovery boards that could be sold "as new".
Skoda Octavia Scout? Probably the same car as the Golf and Passat though :)
Exactly right ;) As far as I know they are all the same components. I'll definitely be cross-shopping them.
@[Deactivated]: Then your only real option for an off road wagon is the Subaru, as heinous as the CVT may be. Do they offer a manual or conventional auto in other parts of the world?
Skoda Superb Scout?
Same as the VWs, isn't it? Not that they're not a good car and I'll definitely have a crack at one, but I'd prefer to buy Japanese if at all possible.
@[Deactivated]: Skoda's tend to have a better reputation for reliability. The Superb also has the wet-clutch gearbox which is pretty reliable.
Though I think it is one of the first cars in Aus to come with a PPF so you might be rolling the dice on that.
@Velt: Do they? I figure all of the VAG cars share engines and transmissions, what can be so different in terms of reliability?
Copy that on the wet clutch - I think all the current generation VAG products have those, right?
Also good call on the PPF. I'd probably get a late-model used if I was to buy a VAG car anyway.
The problem with CVTs, and I mean absolutely nothing untoward here, is the attitude of people like yourself.
CVTs were fantastic. The car stays in its peak power/torque/efficiency bands, you get power when you want to boot it and efficiency when you don't. You can have any possibility of a theoretical infinite number of gear ratios.
The problem is that the consumer didn't like this. They "felt" wrong. They "sounded" wrong. And I get it - having your car accelerate to 3000 RPM and then sorta just stop, it was a bit disconcerting. Is there something wrong with the car? Why aren't I accelerating? You are - it just doesn't feel like it because you don't have the same external stimulus that confirms this that you've been used to for so many years.
So, while CVTs continue to be made, manufacturers were forced to tweak them to essentially emulate traditional cog-swappers, and that's why CVTs are shit.
I totally understand that, and I agree that it's ridiculous that CVTs have ended up this way. However it doesn't solve my problem! haha
So can you get them tuned to work as intended? It sounds like everything would be tweaked by the ecu.
I've often wondered this. I've got a DSG in my car now so I've not looked into it - but I've always thought it would be nice if you could choose between the different behaviours!
Driving a manual every day, I personally couldn't deal with the lack of engine braking, felt like the car was floating everywhere
Agreed. Most of my driving is road trips for holidays, often involving long descents etc. No 'real' engine braking SUCKS in those circumstances.
You could probably use the manual mode option for this scenario - though I imagine it causes more wear on the engine and replacing brake pads is relatively cheap.
@macfudd: Oh I have tried with the manual mode - it's just nowhere near as good as with a real auto or a manual. It doesn't hold gears as strongly and it accelerates quite fast.
It's not to avoid wear on the brake pads, but to avoid brake fade over a long hill in unsafe conditions. You don't want overheated brakes halfway down a mountain pass in the snow!
I have a MY17 Outback and Impreza. I think the engine braking is fine if you're using cruise control. I use engine braking every day I drive to work. There's a hill where if you don't do anything, it will accelerate from 60-80 in the space of 750m (32m drop). With cruise on, the brakes don't light up and I stay at 60. It also doesn't hit you like a brick wall.
@[Deactivated]: Not for a while. But I used to do CBR to Batemans Bay via Kings Hwy a bit. I don't hesitate using CC on the mountain ascent/descent set at 40-60km. To me it feels smooth without the jerkiness of a manual shifting.
TBH, in my older age (I'm 40), I'm preferring the Subaru CVT to all other CVTs and Autos. It feels smooth, power delivery is good and I still take roundabouts at 60k. :) I would still prefer manual for a sporty car though… maybe.
@Pertuan: Cheers for the info mate, I'll definitely do a test drive.
It's just I use my car for snow trips - I barely drive other than for holidays - and when you have a fifteen minutes drive down a steep hill in the snow you really appreciate engine braking! Haha
@[Deactivated]: I've not driven in snow just yet but personally, I wouldn't have any hesitation. If you look at some of the US Youtube videos, they really punish the Outback through snow, mud, water, dirt hills etc.
I'm going to sound like a fanboi but I really do recommend you go for a drive. It's very different to other CVTs. I've driven Nissan, Mitsu, Toyota CVTs through wet/dry/dirt/slush and the Subaru is by far, without a doubt the best implementation of a CVT.
@Pertuan: That's real good to hear and I appreciate your input with firsthand experience!!! Especially compared to the other CVTs. Most of my CVT experience is from a Corolla hybrid and I did not enjoy it at all, but I have driven a couple others.
When I'm shopping I'll definitely give it a go without any prejudice.
Let me ask
Thanks man, much appreciated.
No dramas bro
Drop Subaru and ask them the question - simples!
\https://www.subaru.jp/
I drove Forester, Corolla, and some other cars with CVT, and liked it a lot more than conventional autos. Instantly available power and better engine braking are just great, especially in the latest Forester combined with eyesight cruise control.
Maybe it is just my mate's driving but I can't stand the Impreza CVT. It just doesn't feel right. Give me a traditional auto any day or better still a 6-speed manual.
I'll go and test the turbo outback but I don't have much confidence
Having covered 10’s of thousands of kilometres in our company Forester's over the last few years, don't do it. There is nothing good about this transmission.
No idea but it would be awesome if the next WRX STI had a wet dual clutch option. Would be much faster with the higher power coming out too.
Subaru's have the best development of CVT. Nissan is awful and have so many issues with it. Which makes no sense since they're the ones that pioneered it?! Depending on your driving style sometimes it works other times it doesn't feel right. Sucks that Subaru got rid of their Liberty GT Premium model. Was their only standard auto transmission, plus it had awesome power.
The next generation wont have a gearbox, they'll be single speed electric, so I wouldn't worry about it OP. That or Subaru goes out of business. They'd be crazy to design a ICE car with everyone shifting their focus to EVs right now.
You're the one always on about Teslas, right?
I'm sorry but I disagree with you as to how fast things are going to move away from ICE vehicles.
I'm in an adjacent field and this is an area of interest to me, and it's just not going to happen that quickly at all. In my opinion, we're going to see probably two to three generations of ICE vehicles (likely with the next or the next-next generation being hybrids) from 95% of manufacturers, with one or two specialty electric models.
The price and infrastructure just isn't there for most people yet.
Tell that to Mercedes and VW. No new generations of petrol and Diesel engines after this one.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/298866-daimler-will-pull…
"Daimler will stop development of any new internal combustion engines, gasoline or diesel. The parent of Mercedes-Benz recently released a new family of internal combustion engines. Those, reportedly, will be the last new engines. They’ll be tweaked, refined, and re-engineered for years, probably decades, but there won’t be all-new engines."
Did you even read the article man? They're not stopping the engines after this gen, they're just not developing new ones from scratch. Many engines out there in new cars are three or four decades old in terms of the base design, so that could give you an even longer timeframe than what I'm talking about.
I'm super keen on electric vehicles, really, I am. I don't know what it is about their fans that makes them so blind to reality, though.
@[Deactivated]: You are delusional if you think Daimler is using 4 decade old engines. The V8, I6, and 4 cylinder engines are all new architecture from the last few years. The latest I6 engines are going to be the last gen.
@[Deactivated]: And therefore they are likely to remain in service, with tweaks, for up to 4 decades? As was my point?
@[Deactivated]: That was not your point at all. You’re trying to cover up your obvious bullshit. Mercedes are not going to be using any of those engines in 3-4 decades, infact they won’t be using any variety of those engines 15 years from now. It’s very clear the direction that all the worlds major automotive companies are heading in. But if you want it keep your head in the sand, keep on making stuff up if it makes you feel better.
No. Welcome to the new normal.