Do You Need Heater at Mid Day?

fujay on 25/06/2020 - 12:48
Last edited 25/06/2020 - 16:51

I would like to seek second opinion before action.

Currently in Sydney is 17degree, and we are in a unit (not ground floor, quite sunny in morning).

My lodger has a heater on right now, mid day at noon. It feels like she is abusing it since we agreed on rent including bills.
I did not provide or agree on using heater in the room if it matters.

What is your take of this?

I had fun reading some comments and taking some advice, hope you too.

Added a few points frequently discussed:
Out of contract terms, didn't increase rent in 1+ year, as considering on good terms
Heater cost $13+ a day when running 24/7 (Provider AGL) (2kw heater)
Lodger current behavior is like 24/7, as heater was notice on at 12pm, 4pm early winter (heard noise from corridor)

Poll Options expired

  • 374
    It's reasonable usage
  • 6
    Lodger cannot use heater
  • 197
    Lodger should pay extra for heating
Home & Garden

Comments

  • Drakesy on 25/06/2020 - 13:20

    Using the heater for me at night is an extra $5 a day or thereabouts, i'd imagine using it all day would be ~$10 of energy or $70 a week. Not an insignificant amount of the rent.

    TBH i'd have a discussion and see if they'd be happy to pay 2/3-3/4 of the bill (or whatever the difference is from last winter. Else just don't allow heaters during the day.

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 13:22
      -1

      I am on the same side.
      I may let it go if just heat up at night, what concerns is mainly the whole day usage.

      • Revrnd on 27/06/2020 - 21:05

        I'm in Canberra in a very poorly insulated brick house, and we only turn on central heater for about 1hr before bed and same again first thing in morning (when the outside temp hits 2 degrees) just to take the edge off.

        When the thermostat shows less than 8 degrees inside (won't read any lower….), it's warranted.. perhaps get one of those LCD clocks with a thermometer in it for reference.

        But clearly, choice of apparel and bedding make a huge difference in extra heating costs.

        Just wish our place had sarking and double-glazed windows… it sure needs them for the climate here.

  • pantsparty on 25/06/2020 - 13:21
    +5

    If you aren’t happy with the agreement you made with your tenant than make a new agreement.

    • dizzle on 25/06/2020 - 13:32
      +2

      But don't be surprised if the lodger says no or leaves.

      • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 13:40
        -1

        totally aware of that, might be a better option here

        • dizzle on 25/06/2020 - 15:10
          +21

          Honestly, if I saw on a lease contract that I could only use the heater x hours a day or that I had to ask permission to use it, I'd be out the door straight away. It would be an indication that the landlord is controlling and there would be any other number of things they would want to limit (like this one that wanted more money because the tenant was working from home).

          You're better off just splitting the electricity 50/50

          • beesquared on 26/06/2020 - 11:58

            @dizzle: but i could see there being a further complaint about the lodger being home for more hours than the landlord, so they would want to change it to 40:60

  • p1 ama on 25/06/2020 - 13:30
    +23

    My lodger has a heater on right now, mid day at noon. It feels like she is abusing it since we agreed on rent including bills.

    Did you put a disclaimer saying "NO HEATER"? If not, too bad, she's using what she's entitled to and what she has rightfully paid for.

    I did not provide or agree on using heater in the room if it matters.

    Yes you did, you agreed for her to use electricity. You did not say that heating is not included.

    What is your take of this?

    Don't offer "all you can eat" policies unless you are actually know what you are doing and wiling to back that up. In this case right here, she is completely in the right.

    If you're not willing to refund her when she uses less electricity than what you expect, then don't expect her to pay more when she uses more than what you expect. Simple.

    • TerryJustTerry on 26/06/2020 - 00:11

      While I agree with your principle in general it should be noted that even all you can eat restaurants have limitations if people try to abuse the system (although what we have in terms of info so far doesn't suggest that at all).

      • BillyG687 on 29/06/2020 - 14:26

        Honestly, with exception to a time limit, I haven't encountered any limits at a all-you-can-eat establishment.

        • TerryJustTerry on 29/06/2020 - 15:59

          arent their individuals that are barred from certain ones ?

  • Donaldhump on 25/06/2020 - 13:33
    +1

    no but my wife has no fewer then 4 going all day.

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 13:38
      -2

      in a large living room?

    • Revrnd on 27/06/2020 - 21:07

      dressing gowns, jumpers, ugg boots and winter doona's not a thing she's familiar with? lol. I feel for ya though. If you own the place, have you considered better insulation? sell that to her for a worthwhile long term investment.

  • onetwothreefour on 25/06/2020 - 13:39
    +17

    Will you also be angry in summer when they put a fan on during the day? What if the lodger is watching TV or using a laptop all day, is that fine or are there certain times you will allow them to do so?

    You sound like a nightmare landlord, it's best you tell your lodger now about how you feel and let them move on and find someone better to rent from.

      • o53djz7qTPY4der on 25/06/2020 - 14:26
        +23

        ask using a heater beforehand

        They are an adult, why do they need to ask permission?

      • miles05 on 26/06/2020 - 21:57
        +4

        I don't think you understand that when you rent a room out, your house becomes their home. You may see it as a way of reducing your mortgage or rent, but to the lodger this is now their home and they need to feel comfortable in it. Therefore if they want to use the heater they can. If you're concerned about power, don't include bills in the rent. Or if you're a real tightarse, put a big NO HEATER NO AIR CON clause in the ad so people know to run far away from your offer :)

    • Blue Cat on 25/06/2020 - 14:01
      +2

      Problem is, a heater (2kWh) running for an hour will use ~3.3 times more electricity than a fan (0.05 kWh), TV(0.5kWh) and a laptop (0.05kWh) combined.
      And it is not even essential! Just put more clothes on!

      something something I don't want to wear a jacket something uncomfortable

      Guess what? Everyone would like to crank up the heater and enjoy a warm house, but nobody wants to pay for it, so just put on some extra clothes - it costs nothing.

      • onetwothreefour on 25/06/2020 - 14:19
        +4

        Yes but if electricity was agreed on upfront with no conditions then I would use as much as I wanted to without thinking twice.

          • p1 ama on 25/06/2020 - 14:45
            +20

            @Blue Cat:

            Though it is still scummy behavior from the renter - I bet she wouldn't use the heater 24/7 if it was her own house or if she paid the bills.

            Lol what? How is it scummy? Is it scummy to eat more when you go to an "all you can eat", or use more data when you have "unlimited" broadband?

            • [Deactivated] on 26/06/2020 - 06:48

              @p1 ama: Mistakenly downvoted instead of upvoting.

      • CocaKoala on 25/06/2020 - 18:29
        +12

        Everyone would like to crank up the heater and enjoy a warm house, but nobody wants to pay for it

        I pay my own bills, and I keep the thermostat set at 19 degrees and it kicks in many times through the day. I put it off only when I go to bed (but the electric blanket stays on at low).

        I don't mind paying money to be comfortable - that's part of why I earn money in the first place.

  • brokenglish on 25/06/2020 - 13:50
    +4

    In my first shared housing with included bills, the landlord charged extra $50 per month per person in June, July, August. And there were 4 of us. And now that’s how I keep track of winter, never liked the increase.

    Obviously we tried to maximise our usage as much as possible, wash clothes everyday, heater 24/7 until we felt like being cooked then off.
    You better calculate the bills as if the appliances are on 24/7.

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 13:53

      mind to share which year was that?
      As my rough calculation $50 won't cover one week of 24/7 heater..

      • brokenglish on 25/06/2020 - 13:59
        -2

        That was 2012-2014. Then simply calculate your own price, find the kW/h of the appliances and multiply it with your electricity provider rate + daily rate and adjust accordingly. If you dont have the smart meter then use V x Amp = Watt.

        How and why did you consider included bills in the first place? This is what you should’ve done to begin with. Assume all tenants are aholes.

        • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 14:00
          -1

          last sentence marked!
          Also noted how much electricity have increased over years

        • abb on 26/06/2020 - 14:09
          +7

          Assume all tenants are aholes.

          corollary: assume all landlords are fwits.

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 13:57

      I would be happier to let the lodger go and keep the whole place myself

      • kahn on 25/06/2020 - 14:04
        +2

        Or piggyback off the warmth by incubating eggs, growing tropical plants, rising bread dough, etc.

        • Antikythera on 25/06/2020 - 22:52
          +3

          or get a bitcoin miner and put it in the lodgers room. the power mines bitcoin, and produces waste heat which heats the lodger.

          • Revrnd on 27/06/2020 - 21:11

            @Antikythera: Or sub-let for collocation servers. a little sound proofed room, the exhaust heating your whole house.
            collocation pays for the heat and the electricity. win-win. lol

  • [Deactivated] on 25/06/2020 - 14:15
    +1

    17 degrees!?

    You have +10 on me.

  • Mechz on 25/06/2020 - 14:18

    Buy her some uggs and thermal socks, beanie & gloves. It will save you some money in the long run.

    Sitting in a warehouse in Melbourne, with the roller door open and I'm comfy in jeans and 2 tshirts. I never use the heater at home and have been hot under the doona at night lately even with the fan on.

    • franco cozzo on 25/06/2020 - 14:30
      +5

      …what if you get really cold…do you put on a 3rd tshirt?

  • franco cozzo on 25/06/2020 - 14:26

    …not kidding one of my housemates used to leave a 2000 watt oil column heater on LOW all day while he was at his 9-5 so he could come home to a warm room…

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 14:27

      even worse then, fire risk…

      • franco cozzo on 25/06/2020 - 14:29

        well yeh…that too!

      • Ezekiel2320 on 25/06/2020 - 16:25
        +4

        Oil heaters are far from a fire risk

      • lgacb08 on 25/06/2020 - 17:23
        +1

        Lol, you obviously haven't used an oil heater before, it's fire risk is probably no higher than your kettle. Anything happen you can claim from manufacturer, just to make sure you keep your receipt.

        • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 17:25

          you are right. I am more referring to fan heater unattended

    • bongom on 25/06/2020 - 14:35

      A timer would've solved that problem.

      • franco cozzo on 25/06/2020 - 14:40

        it was a tiny room in a victorian…..not much bigger than a double bed and small desk. would be warm in no time anyway

  • bongom on 25/06/2020 - 14:34
    +6

    Lodger should ditch the heater and install a rack of servers to keep the room warm.

    • skid on 25/06/2020 - 15:00
      +2

      Mining rig and make money.

      • Ghost05 on 27/06/2020 - 13:53

        I was thinking exactly the same thing. Turn the monitor off and the landlord probably wouldn't even bother thinking that a computer could use any more electricity as it sits there causally humming away.

        • Revrnd on 27/06/2020 - 21:13

          invest in a few high end GPUs / CPU for a workstation or two.
          Folding@Home 24/7 - you're contributing to helping find a cure to coronavirus and keeping the house a little warmer.

  • redpump on 25/06/2020 - 14:34
    +4

    I have Raynaud's phenomenon where if my feet are too cold my toes get swollen, tender and purpley-blue. I also have poor circulation, own my own home and currently working from home since COVID, I have my heater on all working hours and it still feels too cold! Can't wear too much as I can't work with gloves + puffer jacket. If you are unhappy with varied usage of electricity from renters, I would suggest you let your tenants pay for rent and utilities separately.

    FYI, my home office was 13°C this morning, sitting at 24°C now.

    • chriskq on 27/06/2020 - 08:43

      sounds like chilblains…. do vacuuming / house cleaning during breaks to get the circulation going.

      • redpump on 27/06/2020 - 08:51

        Wow! That's exactly it! Chilblains sounds more accurate. Yeah, got to get the blood going, I'll try take more breaks.

  • Archi on 25/06/2020 - 14:38

    based on what i pay, cost of electricity in sydney is about $.028 /Kwh an average small heater is about 1800-2000 watts

    thats roughly $13.50 per 24 hours if the heater was on maximum for 24 hours a day

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 14:42
      +1

      got similar $13+ per day, but other seems thinking I'm exaggerating

    • placard on 26/06/2020 - 09:38
      +1

      But surely the heater would not be on 24 hours per day - the room would get too hot!!

      It'd surely be turned on/off intermittantly and/or cycling on/off with a thermostat.

      Pumping 2400w into a small room, it'd be surely getting close to 30 degrees after a few hours?

      • Hangryuman on 26/06/2020 - 11:36
        +1

        yes - I did a quick calc using 29c/kWh x 2kW heater x 24 hours a day = about $13 a day

        but unless the room was totally exposed with no thermal mass like they were almost outdoors like in a freestanding metal garage, it should be very unlikely that the heater would run constantly for 24 hours a day.

        we have a first-floor unit with ideal thermal mass - concrete floor and ceiling slab with similar temperature neighbours above, below and either side, north glass so some winter sun, and maybe 30 cubic metres of living space to heat - we rarely use our split inverter reverse cycle wall air-con to heat except on coldest days to maintain 19C - and my electricity bill increase from off-seasons where we don’t use any heating averages around $1 a day.

        In worst heat waves in recent memory where we actually ran the cooling air-con all day and all night and I could hear it seemingly working non-stop, my air-con bills for summer compared to off-seasons were an extra - OMG!!! - $2 a day.

        • placard on 26/06/2020 - 11:52
          +2

          Exactly - split systems have become incredibly efficient in the last few years.

          For me, they are cheaper to run than mains gas.

          In melbourne it's been pretty cold earlier this year. Our 2 split systems have been on nearly 24/7 the last few months, ticking over at 17-18 at night and 20-21 during the day, and not seen much spike in energy use.

          It doesn't use much extra to maintain thermal mass in the house, rather than turn the heaters on in the evening and it takes almost as much energy to bring the rooms back up to temp.

          • chriskq on 27/06/2020 - 08:45

            @placard: arn't you meant to run air conditioning units until 10pm? or maybe you are rural and your neighbours aren't close.

            https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/questions/noise-from-neig…

            • placard on 27/06/2020 - 10:00
              +1

              @chriskq: Split systems are very quiet these days. My outdoor unit is barely audible when standing next to it. Only time it's noisier is when you first turn it on and it's running hard to heat room up. Maintaining room temp, outdoor unit is almost silent.

  • bdl on 25/06/2020 - 15:30

    Lodger does not appreciate landlord spying on her with telescope from his living room

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 15:31

      not sure how you get to this?
      heater is loud enough in the corridor

    • Hangryuman on 26/06/2020 - 11:38
      +2

      or the hidden camera in the shower

  • Herbse on 25/06/2020 - 15:57
    +8

    "we agreed on rent including bills"
    They're allowed to do it then.

    If you're not happy, make a new agreement

  • AddNinja on 25/06/2020 - 16:00
    +4

    You don’t want to be in a situation where you are monitoring and controlling how often a person uses a heater for their own comfort.

    Have a meeting saying you are going to review rent soon and it is going to have to go up because of increased bills like electricity. If they take the hint, don’t raise rent, otherwise just increase the rent to cover it (point to the bills showing your increased electricity costs).

    But don’t create a situation where you are treating them like a child and telling them what heater usage is reasonable. Even if their heater usage is unreasonable, why would you ever take on a job line that.

    • windrc on 25/06/2020 - 17:04
      +1

      This. Just have a conversation with the tenant, they may be willing and happy to pay for the additional usage to keep themselves comofortable.

  • brad1-8tsi on 25/06/2020 - 16:06
    +3

    I'm WFH. My apartment is on the south side of the building. It's usually 15-17c during the day.

    I'm cold even with 3 layers, ugg boots and a beanie.

    The other day I ran the inverter AC from 07.00-23.00 set on 19c. Surprisingly, my electricity bill says it costs me <$1/day to heat the place to 19c.

    Your tenant has a right to comfort but how are they achieving it? Is it a crappy $10 1200w fan or radiant heater? A 1200w heater on full will cost about 35c/hour to run depending on your electricity plan.

    If they are siting at a desk then maybe a heated shawl/throw rug will do the job? They are cheap to run and cost <$50. At most they pull 200w which is around 7c/hr

    I'd work out how much extra power they are using and what it costs.

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 16:09

      That is impressive, would you share electricity provider?
      Thank you for the advise, yes, i have no intention mentioning the behavior issue.

      • placard on 26/06/2020 - 09:39
        +1

        The difference is because it is reverse cycle A/C - which is 4-5 times cheaper to run than any plug in heater.

        Perhaps you should install one in the tenants bedroom? It'll cost you initially, but be cheaper to run overall.

      • brad1-8tsi on 26/06/2020 - 09:56

        As mentioned, the inverter AC is very cheap to run as a heater but initial outlay was ~$1650 installed.

        I'm with Simply Energy AFL Plus plan on a flat 30c/kw rate which was ideal when I was at work 06.30-17.00 but probably not optimum when WFH. I used wattever.com.au to find the best rate for my usage.

      • Revrnd on 27/06/2020 - 21:16

        Can you get solar? surely the meter tracing realtime usage would be beneficial (as would an offset for daytime heater usage)

  • skywards on 25/06/2020 - 16:20
    +1

    I use an electric blanket a few hours a day, I have solar panels so I haven’t paid for electricity for 10 years.

    • fujay on 25/06/2020 - 16:24

      Electric blanket would be on my proposal, love solar panel if living in a house

  • [Deactivated] on 25/06/2020 - 16:41

    It's winter, fair enough, but you might need a new agreement.

  • try2bhelpful on 25/06/2020 - 16:43
    +2

    Melbourne is absolutely freezing at the moment. We try not to run our heating during the day but my fingers have been so cold they hurt. I have on a tshirt, thermal, jeans, socks, hunched under a downstairs doona and I’m still feeling cold. I looked at my thermometer and it was 14C inside. The heater went on. We are looking into reverse cycle air conditioners, at the moment.

    Maybe you could look at a more efficient heater for the lodger. The little fan heaters aren’t great.

    • Hangryuman on 26/06/2020 - 12:04
      +1

      'The little fan heaters aren’t great'

      in Melbourne I loved them for getting changed in the morning from pyjamas to work clothes - I'd put the fan heater on the floor facing upwards, then hold my shirt over it to fill it with lovely warm air before putting that on, then step over it with my trousers to warm up the legs before putting those on, even firing it up under my shirt on if cold - for about 90 seconds

      total cost per day - 2400W x 29c/kWh x 0.025hr(90 seconds) = under 2 cents.

      not so great on wet body after showers due to the wind chill factor - so I used a $10 1000W bar radiator on the floor (electricians eek! splash electrocution!!) facing the shower to feel cosier then.

      although now in Sydney before I’ve adjusted to winter body temperatures I still tend to fire up the fan heater after showers to dry the nether regions and tootsies before putting on socks and underwear - another 90 seconds or 2 cents I'll never get back …

  • windrc on 25/06/2020 - 16:45

    If u r gonna draft up a new contract with a heater usage clause, make sure you also include other appliances that could generate heat like toaster, oven etc, as they can be used as an alternative

    • dizzle on 25/06/2020 - 20:06
      +3

      I saw something like this the other day. They said that the landlord broke the thermostat so they couldn't turn the heating on. Gas was included in the rent, so they left stove going to heat the apartment instead.

      • brad1-8tsi on 26/06/2020 - 09:58

        I used to run the gas stove when gas was cheap.

        • franco cozzo on 26/06/2020 - 11:11

          how do you spell… carbon monoxide poisoning?

          • brad1-8tsi on 26/06/2020 - 11:28

            @franco cozzo: What do you think a non-flued gas heater does? It pumps out a lot more CO than a stove top. We used to run a 20MJ/h Rinnai plus I'd turn the stove on.
            Probably not a good idea in an enclosed 4mx4m room but in an open plan living/dining/kitchen area that had 3.5m ceilings and a floor area of 80sqm (I don't know what idiot thought that was a good idea) it wasn't an issue.

            A different gas but did you know that if you have a 22 seat Toyota bus with a full load of big burly blokes and you put the vent system on recirc you will exceed the safe CO2 limits for confined space entry after about 25 minutes?

          • greatlamp on 26/06/2020 - 23:28
            +1

            @franco cozzo: Natural gas is mainly CH4 (methane). It is much cleaner burning than propane

            Also how is the furniture business going?

            Did your son ever get out of prison after smuggling drugs in the couch shipments?

  • CocaKoala on 25/06/2020 - 17:00
    +5

    As others here have pointed out, each person will have different heat/cold tolerances. Have you tried talking to them to understand why they need to keep the heater on? You are better off without a lodger as you're clearly losing of money (based on what you've said).

  • crentist on 25/06/2020 - 17:03
    +17

    None of this would happen if we didn't build houses with such crappy insulation. There's this common assumption that because the weather is nice, we don't need double glazed windows and such.
    And then we have to crank the AC all summer and heaters all winter.

    Silly thing is that it ends up being colder in an Australian house than in many of the actually freezing parts of the world.

    • fruxo on 25/06/2020 - 23:20
      +1

      The house here are a joke. It barely even makes any difference if leaving windows open or closed in winter. It was 8 degrees outside last night and I think 13 degrees in our bedroom. And that's with two adults and two kids in the one room (and closed windows of course).

      House was only built a few years ago and when I tried to arrange for double glazed windows I was laughed out of the room. I eventually gave up. But at least I complain about it endlessly ;)

      • brad1-8tsi on 26/06/2020 - 10:03
        +1

        I think the attitude is "why spend money for 6 weeks of the year".

        We are doing a renovation in our apartment block and will be fitting eco-glass to the new rooms. It's a reasonably priced compromise.

        In my old house I had 250mm of batts on the ceiling and a radiant heat barrier under the tiles. It worked really well. The windows were rubbish though.

  • knk on 25/06/2020 - 17:10

    I crank it during the day. I'm happy to pay that extra to be comfortable while I'm working from home (I've worked from home for years, not just during this time).

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  • Leeroy Jenkins on 25/06/2020 - 17:12

    Everyone's different. You need to talk to her and come to an agreement.

    I'm from Melbourne. The average temperature in the house has been around 10-12" forever, but I haven't used the heater once. How I do it? Put on enough clothes and keep drinking warm water (for me 50-60" is the sweet spot).

    It's the first time I try not to use the heater around this time of the year. I'm not sure if this is still going to work when the temperature drops further but at least now I'm comfortable. :)

    • capslock janitor on 27/06/2020 - 12:17
      -1

      50-60" is the sweet spot)

      That's alotta warm water !

  • Ghost47 on 25/06/2020 - 17:36

    You could tell them if they decide to use appliances that require more electricity that they are subject to paying more of the bills?

  • tikei on 25/06/2020 - 18:12
    +6

    To answer the title question, yes I need heater mid day.

  • IamEzza on 25/06/2020 - 18:33
    +2

    All heaters use a thermostat to turn off the heating element once the room reaches the desired temperature.
    If they are just heating a single bedroom with the windows and door closed then the heaters actually heating element won't be running and consuming 2kW continuously. It might have a duty cycle of 10-25% so instead of $12 a day it might only cost $1.2 to $3 depending on how well the house is insulated. In a well insulated house or room the heater barely needs to run at all to maintain a comfortable temperature.

  • superdarkhumour on 25/06/2020 - 18:41
    +1

    Reduce rent to exclude bills.

  • OzzyOzbourne on 25/06/2020 - 19:19

    Depends on the temperature and what clothes I'm wearing

  • [Deactivated] on 25/06/2020 - 19:28
    +5

    op sounds like a pita. /endthread

  • ozoner on 25/06/2020 - 19:34
    +2

    If my landlord was silly enough to tell me electricity was included, then tried to tell me what I can and can't use - I'd buy the biggest bitcoin miner I could afford and see what they made of THAT.

    • OzzyOzbourne on 26/06/2020 - 11:39

      Start producing titanium… That uses a shed load of electricity

  • tessel on 25/06/2020 - 20:23
    -1

    Get a wood fire for her and make her split the wood. I've had my fire going for 2 months non stop and will keep going till September or so. Cheap heat :-)

    • champstarr on 26/06/2020 - 00:39
      +3

      Think of your neighbours with all that smoke. Wood fires should be banned in suburbia.

      • brad1-8tsi on 26/06/2020 - 10:04
        +1

        Woodfires smoke because people throttle them back too much or are using green timber.

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