Toyota, I Don't Get It

Yorkshire-Man on 08/06/2020 - 21:43
Last edited 09/06/2020 - 18:57

Ok, at the start I'm a migrant & I live in the city so this is why I'm asking. In the UK Toyota is a niche brand, outsold by VW, Kia, Ford and many more, they dont stand out.

But here in Australia Toyota seems to rule & I don't get why. What I see is bland cars, low levels of value for the price point with competition that seems to offer far more in tech / design and price.

Is this a city V's country thing? If you live in the bush I totally get it, bullet proof practical cars with great support from a dealer network. Or is it a perception that these cars last longer / are better quality.

Looked several times but never seen great value or great design… but easily the No 1 in sales.

What am I not getting?

Edit - Thanks everyone for their views, I get it way more now. Good insights, guess my comparison was more against Mazda, Kia, Hyundai & to a lesser degree Ford & Honda. Not the Euros, I get why Toyota is favored above them.

Automotive Toyota

Comments

  • 3 on 10/06/2020 - 09:57

    I've heard that early Japanese cars used to rust quickly in snowy climates where they would salt the roads (they don't salt the roads in Japan). It's not really an issue in Australia so didn't affect the brand greatly here, but probably damaged their reputation in places like the UK.

    • Yorkshire-Man on 10/06/2020 - 10:23

      All cars rust in the colder climates. Salty roads in the winter smacking into the underside of the cars mean they wear out far faster, so far less old cars on the road. Maybe why people care more about creature comforts, they know this car won't live to old age anyway…

  • suchislife12 on 10/06/2020 - 11:52

    I'd personally never buy a Toyota because the value for money they offer is exceptionally poor (especially on the Corolla!). The one thing I'd never argue with is their reliability. Family members who own Toyota's haven't had so much as a small warranty claim on their cars. They are built with 3 principles in mind , dull, practical and durable.

    Anyone who says all modern cars are reliable miss the mark by a long shot. Myself and work colleagues have had extensive issues with our Volkswagen Golf and Polo work vehicles at low KM's. Family members of mine who own the 1.6L turbo Hyundai i30's and Elantra's have had reoccurring issues with their Fuel Injections systems.

    The Polo, Golf, i30 and Elantra are all better equipped and nicer to drive by far. The reality is, with proper servicing I can only see the Toyota still being on the road in 15-20 years. This isn't a consideration of mine as I have no intention of keeping any car I own outside of the warranty period but many Australian's keep their car for a long time. This is not to say Toyota's don't have issues (Diesel Hilux cough) but they occur much less frequently than other brands. Mazda are a bit more expensive but I think comparable on the reliability front. Honda are not (1.5l Turbo engine and poor quality CVT's).

    • Hangryuman on 11/06/2020 - 08:57
      +4

      'I'd personally never buy a Toyota because the value for money they offer is exceptionally poor'
      'extensive issues with our Volkswagen Golf and Polo work vehicles at low KM's'
      'The Polo, Golf, i30 and Elantra are all better equipped and nicer to drive by far'
      'I can only see the Toyota still being on the road in 15-20 years'

      ah - so your idea of value for money is getting a new car every few years - I'll guess absorbing depreciation (loss of value) of $thousands per year for that shiny new feel ? - guess you're flush with cash - or flushing it down the toilet - very good - carry on - doing what you love

      I know a guy with a number of very fancy cars - he bought used - and they cost him an arm and a leg to maintain …

      my 1991 Honda Civic is nearly 30 years old - still runs perfectly - and no longer depreciates because the wreckers said they'd give me $200 for it - total standing and running costs last year was about $1000 - and that was mostly rego and insurance.

      • suchislife12 on 11/06/2020 - 09:57

        I probably should've offered a more extensive explanation on what I meant by 'value for money'. Compare the Corolla ZR to the Cerato GT for example. The Cerato offers a superior interior made of higher quality materials, a better engine and significantly more advance transmission for a lower and more reasonable price. All the Corolla offers over the Cerato is long term viability. The Corolla by all purposes is towards the bottom of its category in almost all aspects of driving.

        I don't keep my car for longer than the warranty period because I can afford to buy a new car every 2-3 years. The industry I work in provides me with an bi-annual car allowance and by not spending it on a car I jeopardise increasing the level of taxation I need to pay. I don't think that it's viable for everyone and I wouldn't criticise people for not choosing to regularly update their vehicle. Not exactly flushing cash down the toilet in my instance.

        I'm glad to hear your 1991 Honda Civic is operating perfectly. The 80's-90's were the golden days for Honda back when most of their cars were manufactured in Japan. I think you'd find a Civic purchased today would not last as long. I would argue that whilst it may function perfectly, it severely lacks adequate safety features that make the car safe but obviously this wouldn't be fair. I wouldn't criticise your decisions without understanding your financial position first.

        • Hangryuman on 12/06/2020 - 18:33

          'your 1991 Honda Civic … severely lacks adequate safety features that make the car safe but obviously this wouldn't be fair'

          sure - my preference is to avoid accidents - apart from parking bumps, I haven't had one risking injury in over 40 years.

          once upon a time a friend had an old Volvo (boxy but safe) - as he knew he was a bad driver - evinced by my sitting in the passenger seat while he drove and turned his head to look at and talk to me for many seconds at a time causing me to shout 'Watch the Road !!!'

  • striker5950 on 10/06/2020 - 13:01
    +4

    "What I see is bland cars, low levels of value for the price point with competition that seems to offer far more in tech / design and price."
    OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT KNOW JACK SHIT ABOUT CARS..

    • Hangryuman on 11/06/2020 - 09:04

      Do you ? - Where does Jack live ?

  • TheBilly on 10/06/2020 - 13:12
    +2

    Reliability - I own a hilux with over 100k km's and I've taken it off road many times a year and given it a really rough life. It feels like it just drove off the showroom floor yesterday, everything is just solid and does not squeak or rattle, all I have done is the scheduled servicing and nothing more. Likewise I have seen Toyota Hiace vans that have clocked over 1 million kilometres and are now on round two of the odometer. No broken engines and gearboxes, just maintenance. You also regularly see Toyota Camry models from the 90's still rolling around on Sydney streets.

  • kaikor on 10/06/2020 - 13:23
    +1

    Have my corolla ZR levin for 9 yrs, only so call big issue I ever got is water pump failed, cost like $300 to replace with original factory parts, plus its the top model and already comes with sunroof, keyless entry and xenon which are a must have. Now got no excuse to change another car … Keep telling myself go and try for another brand, but I guess nothing else can beat a Toyota … maybe a Mazda?

    • greatlamp on 10/06/2020 - 17:09
      +1

      If you expect Toyota reliability from a mazda, prepare to be very disappointed.

      • nephilim on 10/06/2020 - 22:22
        +1

        Seriously is a reason why you don't see many Mazda's over 10 years old except BT50's and male P players really old speed 3's

        • DonWilson on 10/06/2020 - 23:53

          Last year they were the number two selling brand in Australia (behind Toyota).

          They're the third most common registered passenger vehicle on the roads in Australia. Mazdas are 9% of passenger vehicles on the roads. Behind Toyota (20%) and Holden (10.7%) and even without MG withdrawing Holden from the market Mazda would have likely overtaken Holden in 2-3 years. Probably in 1-2 years now. No other brands are really threatening to challenge for the number 2 spot.

          So not sure why you're not seeing many Mazdas.

        • Eeples on 11/06/2020 - 20:22

          I drive an 18yo 626.

          Very reliable.

  • peterw1 on 10/06/2020 - 15:55

    if you wanna know how good Toyota is, just ask Porsche who engaged them to get them out of a pickle. Without Toyota know how Porsche would not exist as we know it.

  • Chamillionaire on 10/06/2020 - 16:17

    I agree. My family and I have never one lol

  • ziaxk87 on 10/06/2020 - 17:14

    rav 4 is awesome

  • MementoMori on 10/06/2020 - 17:46
    +2

    The main differences in the marketing.

    The European brands have cemented themselves as premium and luxury with a high mark up on them, and have managed to maintain this somehow.

    It’s just the life cycle of a brand. For example, Calvin Klein underwear is $30 a pair here in Myer, in the US you can get three for $10 at Target.

    Japanese cars are just as good (certainly more reliable, but perhaps not as stylish), therefore much better value and more popular.

  • DiscoJango on 10/06/2020 - 18:36
    +2

    Google how much a dsg gearbox costs to replace here. Now you know why we dont like owning euro cars outside of the warranty period.

  • herrod on 10/06/2020 - 20:45

    To understand it, you have to understand the nature of our (once) domestic automotive industry, proximity to Asia (and Europe) and large land mass. (Which in some aspects are similar to the US market). The domestic market had a preference for large cars to cover big distances. We never had the competition from a lot of brands and the market was small enough to sustain a handful of cars. The Landcruiser is a different story, there's an entire lore post ww2 how they came to dominate, but specifically here, when the first corollas and civics arrived here they were a revelation in quality and reliability but laughable in size. But over time, as tastes changed, these features were actually more desirable. In fact, the imported cars of the 80s also pushed up the quality of local cars too, which eventually included until the end a local Toyota manufacturing operation (camry/avalon/aurion large cars). In short, Japanese cars are cheaper for parts and service here compared to European cars, whereas the opposite is true in Europe. Reputation also matters in our market, so the continued reputation of reliability of Toyota along with brands like Honda and Subaru mean those remain popular too. If we're real here, only the German brands are comparable in quality, but not on price and service. Even budget continental brands like Opel and Skoda are very niche, and can't compete against the genuine cheaper servicing and parts of Asian cars, again due to proximity. Finally, I'll add Asian immigration including recent Indians (but not mainland Chinese) for whom Toyota and Honda have reputational and prestige value too. So ultimately we're a safe no nonsense, parochial market and Toyota, of the foreign brands with the exception of Ford, perhaps has worked it's way into our hearts.

  • bmerigan on 10/06/2020 - 21:50
    +2

    Camry has always been very popular with older folks, and these days I see it's popular with African migrants - which I assume is brand association because Toyota is huge there.
    Toyota 4WD has been most popular for use in the outback for seems like forever which has become self-fulfilling. Now there's so many it's safer to have the same.
    Comparing to European brands it just comes down to our Asian locality (Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Mazda, more recently Hyundai, very recently Kia). Just like I'm always surprised to see Mercedes Benz taxis in Germany.

  • HerpinDerp on 10/06/2020 - 22:02

    500k km on Toyotas, absolutely unkillable.

    Bring back the JZ.

  • Euphemistic on 10/06/2020 - 22:28

    https://youtu.be/VYNnd7pCCqk

    This just popped up in my YouTube feed. ‘Top 16 cars that last forever’. Some survey done in the US seeing what cars last more than 200,000 MILES. 5 or 6 of them are Toyota’s, top one being Land cruiser - leading by a country mile to second place.

  • tongu on 10/06/2020 - 23:29

    Toyota had a local manufacturing plant here in Altona which at its peak had something like 4000 employees. They had a pretty generous salary sacrificing program for their employees who could drive brand new cars for a couple years before swapping it for a newer model, moreover, they gave something like 20% discount for direct family members of employees. I suspect the constant churning of these semi-new moderately cheap cars to dealers flooded the Australian market and led to us seeing heaps of their cars on the road over the years. Moreover, some of the parts would've been manufactured locally to support the factory which made for cheaper repairs.

    Moving forward, I think Toyota will have a harder time keeping market share much like Holden and Ford. I'm also keen to see how they fair as we transition into electric vehicles. Last I read they were backing hydrogen fuel cells.

    • Cluster on 10/06/2020 - 23:55

      Toyota pretty much owns the hybrid market. The top sellers in Australia are all Toyotas. The company however has to be careful with pure EV options coming online and pushing Toyota out of the market.

      • MarsTitan on 11/06/2020 - 21:40

        They are introducing plug-in hybrids in the North American market. Which in my opinion is a better option for the next 5 years. A plug-in hybrid Rav4 with an electric range of 50Km would be the best of both worlds.

    • Euphemistic on 11/06/2020 - 07:07

      Unlikely the staff flooded the market. It’s the fleet/rental market that does that.

      • Zephyrus on 11/06/2020 - 11:49
        +1

        This, a good chunk of the government cars I see are Toyota. There's a reason 90% of them are white.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2020 - 02:06

    Your assertions are incorrect, sales volumes of Toyota's globally are in first or second position, so not an Australian thing by any stretch. Reasons - best in class technology, reliability and reasonable price. Euro brands got green by pretending nitrous oxides aren't bad for the environment and cheating emissions tests. Toyota put hybrids into mass production (as well as did a lot of r&d into hydrogen fuel cell cars see the Mirai).

  • Pro-crastinator on 11/06/2020 - 02:41
    -4

    I agree with the OP!

    Bland exterior designs, internal designs that don't make sense (one I hired recently had 2 buttons in different places that did the same thing), and they seem to have successfully convinced everyone they're somehow more reliable than an alternative.

    My theory is that this reliability obsession is popular with people who don't care about cars (I want to get from A to B levels of interest in cars) so I am thinking they want something they can't break easily, as opposed to a car that doesn't break down.

    And for some reason, nearly every time I see stupid driving (not the aggressive kind, the lack of awareness and skill kind) the Camry seems to be the vehicle of choice… after considering the theory, I googled it to see whether it's just me… but apparently I'm not the only one to notice the trend!

    https://jalopnik.com/the-incredible-mystery-of-the-camry-den…

  • [Deactivated] on 11/06/2020 - 08:01
    +1

    i had a camry that probably rolled off the Australian production line in the last 6 months of operations before it was shut down. the door lock mechanism failed - one by one over 2.5 years. it was a nightmare trying to get it fixed. had to go back 7 times (i kept a log) to replace 4 door locks. on the bright side, no mechanical issues with the engine.

    i suspect the suppliers probably didnt care about quality anymore as the plant was shutting down. and the service centre probably wasn't used to getting complaints like this and didn't know how to deal with it. for the final lock, they forgot to order the part 3 times (3 futile trips for me) and when they did, it was a wrong colour, the inventory name doesn't indicate colour and they would only know when the package is open. i had to escalate to the service centre manager, he took the matter personally and made/tracked the correct order. and arranged for a mechanic to come to my workplace to replace the part (5 min). but it took them 7 tries for 4 locks and the last one, resolved only after i channeled my inner 'karen'.

  • VBO on 11/06/2020 - 14:26

    ‘UK Toyota is a niche brand, outsold by VW, Kia, Ford…’
    🤣 No more need to be said.

  • Architectonic on 11/06/2020 - 14:32

    Some people just want a bland car that "just works".

    German cars might be more interesting, but I wouldn't own one unless I was loaded with cash, or had a mechanic that owes me a lifetime debt.

  • TRANCE on 11/06/2020 - 15:23

    Lexus LFA, nuff said. Toyota know exactly how to make the epitome of automobiles. They have the engineering and philosophy which can combine performance, driving pleasure and durability, which no one else pulls off quite like they do. The fact that Toyota really know their stuff, means you can't go wrong with any of their cars.

    Their cheaper cars are targeting durability, you can't have everything for entry level prices.

  • snajper on 11/06/2020 - 17:43

    depends on what majority of general population prefers.

    Toyota is very reliable and long term keeper in general. Most people prefer safe point A to point B transport and Toyota does that well. Cheap servicing and parts.
    Others prefer better handling, refined drivetrain, interior and sporty cars and this is where they go for Euro cars.

  • wisdomtooth on 11/06/2020 - 19:37

    Didn't read it all, just want to add that I lived in the US (CA) back from 1997 to 2000, and already at that time Toyotas were recognised as hands down the most reliable (Honda coming a close 2nd and Nissan a distant 3rd). VW and Ford were 2nd league, and GM was a (bad) joke.

    Things have certainly changed since then, especially with spectacular growth of Korean cars, but Toyota and Honda are still King and Queen of quality control.

  • Pro-crastinator on 12/06/2020 - 03:20

    LOL, this is the only post I’ve seen where everyone is agreeing “bland, boring, reliable, A to B car” etc… except if you start/finish your post with “I don’t like them because…” = negged.
    “I like them because…” = upvoted.

    To OP, please just consider the advice from OZB as being the wrong place to post a question if you’re a car enthusiast. You will get a basic consensus of the cheapest or best value proposition car you need for transportation only, if you want to enjoy a drive, look elsewhere - this is basically a finance first forum.

    • smartazz104 on 12/06/2020 - 07:30

      if you’re a car enthusiast

      OP is talking about VWs, Fords and Kias, "car enthusiast" isn't the first thing that springs to mind…

      • Euphemistic on 13/06/2020 - 07:21

        Golf GTI, Mustang, Focus RS, Ranger Raptor, XR6 Turbo… Kia certainly isn’t the first to spring to mind for an enthusiast though.

        • smartazz104 on 13/06/2020 - 10:41

          And most of those are cars the OP won’t have seen or even considered back in the UK. I bet the top sellers for these brands are all the bland cars OP seems to dislike.

          • Tsuivan on 13/06/2020 - 22:42
            +1

            @smartazz104: Most cars in the UK are shitty little French and German hatchbacks with tiny engines due to the extortionate insurance premiums for anything 'sporty'. Honestly, hardly anyone drives anything with any meaningful amount of power or excitement - it's like the place to go for boring cars.

            We may not have the cheapest cars or the widest variety, but running a car in Oz is much more accessible by almost any metric.

  • giventofly on 12/06/2020 - 09:49

    Similarly, I can't understand why anyone would buy a VW.

  • StrangeDisposition on 12/06/2020 - 10:01
    +3

    Hi there, great question. One i wondered myself as a young car enthusiast - until i joined the company. In 6 years at head office i worked across national HQs as well as stepping foot into the manufacturing plant (before it was shut), many of the regional offices and countless dealerships across the country.

    Anyone who gives you a single reason why Toyota has dominated for the past 30 years is over simplifying but I would rationalise it down to these things:
    1. Brand - no other company in the country invests as heavily as Toyota in advertising and marketing.
    2. QDR - Quality Durability and Reliability for Toyota is still their number one 1 priority. Every decision, no matter how big or small is researched to the extreme and if it will impact QDR negatively, they wont do it. even if it means sales will increase significantly, they wont do it. Even if it will only impact 0.01% of customers…. THEY WONT DO IT. Im not just talking about Landcruisers either. This sort of thinking permeates decisions on every model. They expect that even a Yaris might see a dirt road for 2min 1 day in its whole life and will plan the entire platform around that 2min of hell. And rightly so, in Australia, a place with coarse chip bitumen, dirt roads, sand, salt, sun and dust can quickly and easily end the life of a car prematurely, it means that boring designs and tried and true (boring) technology wins.
    3. Aussie Culture - We dont like flashy things. Tall poppy syndrome is RIFE. So when you show up in a 100k BMW people raise eyebrows. But you show up in your 135k Landcruiser and no one bats an eye lid. Toyota also had a huge role in Australia's history (see snowy mountain) and culture (sponsor both AFL and country music festival whilst also being the car of choice for anyone outside of a major centre)

    Add to all this all of the practical reasons that people have mentioned like dealer and parts network (the largest by double of any other manufacturer), value for money over a 10 year lifecycle (consider not just initial or short term costs), resale values, and the peace of mind that comes from just knowing you can always rely on this thing and it starts to become an easy decision.

    I dont exactly know why this isn't the case in Europe. European cars are obviously cheaper in Europe so the jump up from a Toyota isnt as big. There's less of a history and less of an absolute need for a car that isnt going to leave you stranded since the next town is never more than a few kms away. I guess that's a big part of why Toyota is so huge in regions like Middle East, Africa, Sth America, Australia and South East Asia - these places put more of an importance on being fit for purpose rather than being "smooth to drive" or "pretty" or "advanced".

  • Laziofogna on 12/06/2020 - 20:48

    Surely this not the only peculiar thing you noticed in Australia. Live and let live.

  • [Deactivated] on 15/06/2020 - 09:45

    Also gotta do with who pays for the car too.

    Some of my European colleague coming to AU said car is part of their package once a certain corp rank is reached.

    Other reasons:
    - alot of Euro cars are on lower end of the spec. Therefore cost less to buy. Eg. A MX5 is very close to cost of a Boxster. (25k Euro vs 45k Euro, Boxster in AU is 3x the cost)
    - parts are more available
    - more euro car specialist/mechanic (less common here). Even the good old Holden/Ford speclialised garages are disappearing
    -

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