When Do You Think We Can All Go Back to Office Like Normal?

[Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 08:27
Last edited 20/05/2020 - 11:23

As per title.

Before covid, modern office are designed with small hot desks they called worksmart (not so smart now is it?). As a result they cannot afford arranging permanent desk like it used to be or even distancing each desk 1.5m.

Is our only hope to go back to the office lies on the vaccine? That could be years!

Is that mean we will work from home longer? If so maybe it's worth investing on proper work setup, standing desk, ergonomic chair, smart speaker, coffee machine, better wifi, etc?

Edit: how do you think the young graduates who has just started their career will be like 3 years from now? Will they be as capable as their seniors?

Poll Options

  • 211
    Less than 6 months
  • 61
    Less than 1 year
  • 23
    Less than 2 years
  • 6
    Less than 3 years
  • 46
    Forever
Education & Work

Comments

  • Gunther on 20/05/2020 - 09:00
    +55

    Where is the option for "Already back at work and packed in like sardines"?

    • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 09:16
      -4

      Name one or link.

      • crashloaded on 20/05/2020 - 09:31
        +14

        Public Transport

        • Vote for Pedro on 22/05/2020 - 08:16
          -1

          Not true. Still at 30% typical load pre lockdown

          • Vote for Pedro on 30/05/2020 - 09:03

            @Vote for Pedro: The neg doesn’t like facts?

            • try2bhelpful on 30/05/2020 - 10:12

              @Vote for Pedro: Yeah, maybe not packed in like sardines,yet, but it is, certainly, on the way up. It won’t be long before “social distancing” ideas are a distant memory, particularly when the kiddies go back to school. Even if you are looking at 50% of the patronage pre COVID that would be pretty crowded.

              • Vote for Pedro on 30/05/2020 - 13:12

                @try2bhelpful: At the time of comment, public transport was at 30%.

                • try2bhelpful on 30/05/2020 - 14:08

                  @Vote for Pedro: I’ve been riding the trams for most of the pandemic. A couple of weeks ago they were virtually empty, yesterday they were filling up. Your 30% would be an average which means there could, easily, be some conveyances that are already over 50% during peak hour. I’m sitting in the Bourke St Mall at the moment and it is damn near back to preCovid weekend levels. These people would have to have got here somehow. I think Public Transport is going to be the weak link for recovery. The only way to kickstart the CBD is to get Public Transport running, I’m just not sure how you do it safely? Andrews is buying time with work from home.

                  • Vote for Pedro on 30/05/2020 - 18:38

                    @try2bhelpful: My 30% was at the time of post for NSW based on published patronage figures.

                    • try2bhelpful on 30/05/2020 - 20:30

                      @Vote for Pedro: As indicated it would, probably, be an average over public transport not a value for each train/tram etc.

      • Dadidalol on 21/05/2020 - 13:02
        +6

        Govt departments

      • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 23:22
        +6

        Essential worker. Never stopped. The only difference for me will be that I won't have to homeschool my kids on top of my normal day job anymore. Strangely enough, I'm going to miss them when they go back to school - we've fallen into a happy little routine over the past couple of months. It's been fun, if a little tiring.

        • whitelie on 21/05/2020 - 23:33
          +5

          I'm in the same boat, never stopped working. Man the traffic was good when everyone was working from home. It was like a Saturday/Sunday/public holiday every day.
          Watched it ramp up in Perth before the restrictions were lifted and the past couple of days have almost been back to normal peak hour :(

          • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 23:55

            @whitelie: The change in traffic has been even more dramatic for me. I went from the usual 9 - 5 working hours to starting at 4.30am so I can be home for lunch with the family . I've been looking after the kids in the afternoon while my wife, who is working from home, can actually get some work done. My commute which usually takes 50+ mins, only takes 20 mins now.

            I'm in Vic and the kids will be going back to school soon and I won't have any excuse to finish work at noon anymore. So not looking forward to doing school drop-offs in the morning again and getting caught in peak hour traffic:( Sleeping in till 7 is overrated : short commute to work and afternoon siesta is where its at!

        • try2bhelpful on 21/05/2020 - 23:45
          +2

          There are a few people who are thinking like that. The experience has given them time to actually get to know their kids. Of course, when some people did that they realised they didn’t like them :).

    • lonewolf on 21/05/2020 - 16:34
      +1

      This was what i was going to say, I know some private (Finance companies) back at work full time starting next week.

      • pegasusx on 21/05/2020 - 20:25

        Our office opened up this week for external auditors. Staggered starts but all in the office already

  • Stalker on 20/05/2020 - 09:10
    +43

    Any business that doesn't use this situation as an opportunity to reassess how much office floorspace they actually need is missing a very rare opportunity. Notwithstanding the fact that workers like the idea of coming to the office (mostly) for some social interaction and use of the facilities (e.g. coffee machines, printers, ergonomic desk setups, etc) leasing floorspace is a relatively big expense, so it makes sense to re-evaluate if it's actually needed.

    I think the go forward mantra will be closer to 'if you can work remotely and be effective, please keep working remotely'. A big challenge here is that without a sense of community and connection that being in an office environment can bring, workers are likely to start questioning their loyalty and dedication to individual organisations, which if left unresolved, is likely to result in a more transient workforce who move organisations based on overt factors such as pay and other benefits.

    Who knows what 'normal' will be. I just suspect it will be different to what we all once knew. Just my 2 cents. ;)

    • wiipantz on 20/05/2020 - 09:31
      +5

      Not my company's or bosses 2 cents :(
      We all effectively worked from home with minimal interruption, we are an IT firm and do most work remotely in the office anyways.
      Our directors are clamoring to get us back in the office for no good reason, it's truly baffling our ops and supervisors for the rush when there is no need.
      Some operators just want that control and things to be normal according to them, I guess it just depends on workplace to workplace and the individual.

      • jetblack on 21/05/2020 - 08:09
        +3

        My experience with smaller companies is owners/general managers who are far too controlling to allow WFH on any ongoing basis. Larger companies I've worked for are staffed with people, right up the chain, who only care work is being done effectively. Since WFH actually reduces costs, if there's no appreciable decline in quality of work, there's no good reason to not allow it

        TL;DR - things will change, but not across the board in any uniform way.

      • dufflover on 21/05/2020 - 15:17

        Maybe they've just been burnt by lazy WFH workers in the past.

        Our workplace had a couple that obviously abused the system, and not sure if it's workplace law or HR issues, but it's not as simple as "complain and fire them".

        • Vote for Pedro on 22/05/2020 - 08:20

          The team leader/supervisor/manager needs to set clear deliverables and manage against that. If that’s not done right, then yes it’s not as simple.

          The manager MUST lay the foundations for success.

      • trapper on 22/05/2020 - 11:36
        +4

        The middle management is panicking to get everyone back in the office because they realise there is no actual job for them to do with everyone working self sufficiently from home.

        • tessel on 22/05/2020 - 12:02

          Exactly.

  • Archi on 20/05/2020 - 09:13
    +7

    the work place will never be the same.

    ABW (activity based working) has been around for years and the majority of Australian businesses were too conservative to adopt this method of running a business. main thing was if your bum wasn't on a seat at a desk you weren't working, investing in better design of the office and looking at the way they conduct their business.

    however business cultures and environment changed over the years and business changed the way they conduct their business. adopting variations of the ABW theory. hot desking, open plan offices, more informal meeting spaces, breakout spaces, quiet spaces, recreational spaces, office design and workspace ergonomics and WHS

    investing in technology is a big part of the ABW practices. making your workforce more mobile, but its businesses not willing to invest in this that makes them disadvantaged.

    a good thing to come out of this pandemic is that businesses will recognise people can be mobile and productive at the same time. traditional office settings will change in ways of office design and willingness to adopt new strategies to mitigate current and future scenarios will see offices change

    • macrocephalic on 20/05/2020 - 09:27
      +19

      The darker side to ABW working is the slide towards gig-ification of working. If workers start getting managed per task rather than per hour, and those tasks are done remotely, then there's much less incentive to pay an Australian person Australian wages to do the job.

      At the moment lots of people are enjoying working from home (some not), but I worry that the other shoe hasn't dropped yet.

      • jacross on 21/05/2020 - 08:34

        I think this is a genuine concern but its also a massive cultural shift. Much bigger than WFH. But one with a bigger financial incentive though.

        I do think theres a very good likelihood we are going to run into the AI problem/opportunity before the above becomes an issue but it will be interesting.

      • try2bhelpful on 21/05/2020 - 09:03
        +1

        True, but places who have currently “outsourced” to overseas countries are seeing how little control of the situation they have over “their” workforce. I have ex colleagues, with a major company, where their overseas counterparts weren’t allowed to attend work due to lockdown conditions. The onshore people were told they would need to devise a way to cover for the missing overseas cohort. We had been warning the management about issues with outsourcing before I left, and last seen they were looking at expanding the amount to be outsourced; but when the rubber met the road the “onshore” people had to determine the solution. Management just washed their hands of it. I would hope some lessons are learnt, but I doubt it.

  • CheapandUsed on 20/05/2020 - 09:40
    +13

    Many of us will have a few new interview questions going forward. 'How did your company respond to Covid-19?', 'How did the culture towards remote working change due to covid-19?', 'was your entire workforce directed back into the office as soon they were able, or only parts? why was there a difference?', etc…

    For many office workers being full time in the office will now been seen as a negative and indication of either poor management capability, or a toxic workplace culture.

    • ddhar on 22/05/2020 - 08:35

      This is great!

  • wallet72 on 20/05/2020 - 09:59
    +24

    My leaders have a mantra: if I can't trust you to work at home then I shouldn't have hired you.

    That old argument of 'if you aren't in the office you aren't working' is a load of rubbish, I think it reflects more on the insecurity of the management than the actual reliability of the workers.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 11:12
      +5

      Yes, but we go to the office not just to work, do we? We go to the office to socialise, build network, train juniors, kiss leaders ass, etc.

      • inherentchoice on 20/05/2020 - 12:16
        +3

        kiss leaders ass

        So that's why you go to work?

        Well I guess kissing is okay when the 1.5m rule is dropped.

        • cameldownunder on 22/05/2020 - 11:09

          kiss leaders ass
          So that's why you go to work?

          Either that or no promotion, that's why I have not had a promotion since 10 years.

      • the-endymion on 20/05/2020 - 23:12
        +2

        I'd say if you can't do all of those things via video chats etc, then you should learn. Networking, socialising, training - none of that requires a physical relationship.

        Personally, any job that allows me to work from home is going to keep me onboard much longer than one that forces me back to the office.

        • Quantumcat on 21/05/2020 - 21:29
          +1

          Mentoring others is way easier when you are face to face.

          • Nebargains on 22/05/2020 - 08:22
            +1

            @Quantumcat: Agree, been thinking about this lately, how can you hire someone new and onboard them, train them etc, when they are at home? Oh we can Zoom? Great way to build a relationship by just chatting on Skype and using Zoom…..

            Physical social interaction is very much underrated.

            • Quantumcat on 22/05/2020 - 10:13

              @Nebargains: We had a guy get fired recently because he was brought in as a remote before the covid stuff, the tech was new to him and he really struggled - I think he would have been fine had we been able to be in the office with him and help him.

  • xeion on 20/05/2020 - 10:05
    +4

    Already back to work in open plan office.
    After what all staff found to be a positive and effective way to work, management forced us all back for no good reason.

    • OssieA on 26/05/2020 - 04:25
      +1

      a soft downing of tools is in order.

  • holdenmg on 20/05/2020 - 10:10
    +1

    Beyond COVID: The Future of the Workplace (Livestream)
    Understandably, there has been much global discussion about Covid-19 and its effects on life as we once knew it. During the pandemic, our community focus has been on prevention, control, restrictions, safety, social distancing, isolation, and curve-flattening.
    But what does our society look like beyond Covid-19? And in particular, the workplace?
    Many employers have been forced to adapt their business models and approach to employees working arrangements. As we return to work, or in some instances, need to find new work, what are the likely changes we can expect going forward?
    https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/beyond-covid-the-future-of-t…?

  • try2bhelpful on 20/05/2020 - 10:13
    +3

    The big “problem” for getting a lot of people back to work will be public transport. It was packed to the gills before all this there is no way they can keep social distancing. There is talk of “staggered start/end times but that won’t work for people with kids. I’m not sure how we sort that one out until we have the vaccine.

    The other side of the coin is the “work from home”. Companies are meant to make sure your place is setup ergonomically to prevent injuries. I wonder how many companies have even asked people to provide photographs of their home setup?

    • EFC94 on 20/05/2020 - 10:38
      +3

      My workplace asked us to complete a checklist about our home workspace, so we basically self assessed if it was a suitable set up.

      • sagrules on 20/05/2020 - 13:43

        Same including photo

        • try2bhelpful on 20/05/2020 - 16:34

          Photo is a better idea. Asking people to self assess with a checklist only leads to people not being entirely candid. I know; that was what my work gave me too.

    • Zachary on 21/05/2020 - 18:51

      The big “problem” for getting a lot of people back to work will be public transport. It was packed to the gills before all this there is no way they can keep social distancing. There is talk of “staggered start/end times but that won’t work for people with kids. I’m not sure how we sort that one out until we have the vaccine.

      Simple fix - more buses and trains that come at an even sooner intervals. That way they wont be packed as much, or hopefully not as much because people won't have to worry about missing that one train that only comes every half an hour or that one bus that only comes every two hours…. if we have buses and trains come every 5 minutes to every single station or even less than that, I'm sure there'd be less hurry to cram in.

      • try2bhelpful on 21/05/2020 - 19:44

        Not sure we have the transport infrastructure to handle this but might be worth a thought. Of course the gridlock of road users will slow down the buses and I’m not sure we have additional rolling stock. We would also need to hire, and train, a lot more drivers etc. there is also the problem of if we can run more peak hour trains on our current rail system, given the hub and spoke nature of our CBD rail Network.

        https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/distancing-tippe…

        • Zachary on 22/05/2020 - 23:16

          ok in that case….make more roads too to compensate for the extra buses and train tracks?

          • try2bhelpful on 23/05/2020 - 07:52

            @Zachary: To paraphrase Henry Crun "You can't get the land, you know …". Given inner city house density, and house costs, you would need to look at an underground system to cover it. It would require fast turnaround with most transport vehicles having to leave the CBD. We would probably need to, severely, reduce the number or private vehicles into the city to allow timely arrival for sparsely seated buses.

            However, I admire your long term planning. I know we aren’t sure of getting a vaccine but we are going to need to adapt earlier than the decades this would take. However, It would provide the framework for natural expansion of the population.

            • Zachary on 24/05/2020 - 12:43

              @try2bhelpful: I was also thinking about those big highway bridges, like those that you see in America that's basically everywhere even in those pact cities. So sorta like a 2nd layer or even a third layer of road, one of which can be a dedicated pass-through with no exits till the very end of each ends of the high way or exits at major road intersections whilst the other two have exits everywhere.

              • try2bhelpful on 26/05/2020 - 07:39

                @Zachary: Hideously ugly, you would need to follow existing roads and the disruption would be enormous. Fortunately we aren’t part of the Ring of Fire but an earthquake in the ‘80s caused a section of the bridging to pancake down on the cars below In California. The main problem is our CBDs really can’t take much more road traffic because they come to a screeching halt in the city grids. Public transport is the way. It will be interesting to see if Andrews new rail network helps. Melbourne also needs the train to the airport.

                • Zachary on 30/05/2020 - 17:23

                  @try2bhelpful: Hmmm….

                  What's Andrew's new rail network? I"m guessing it's gonna be like a monorail of sorts or a bullet train?

      • Miss B on 21/05/2020 - 22:53

        Not sure what it's like everywhere else, but Melbourne public transport can't even handle the current timetable, at least before all this. My train was being cancelled twice a week, they already fail all of their targets. More people will be driving in which is going to cause even more delays for buses and they were already delayed during peak.

      • Vote for Pedro on 22/05/2020 - 08:26

        Simple. I love the way you think. Got a spare $50-100billion to get Sydney up to that set up?

  • Bid Sniper on 20/05/2020 - 10:40
    +1

    I dont know how we can? Vaccine is 18 months away. It possible to isolate Australia but we're going into flu season. Public transport was already overcrowded as were roads, with social distancing will be next to impossible. Will take much more time to travel. It stupid to travel 2-3 hrs a day to sit a desk with a computer with an internet connection when you can do it at home. Think managers feel that they will be seen as redundant (which they kinda are) only reason for bum on seats.

    Future would be part time rotating office roster, people go in 1-2 days a week, desk FIFO basically. still face to face but less space required and less time wasted.

    • macrocephalic on 20/05/2020 - 10:52

      I foresee the last bit happening more. I'm looking forward to going back to the office a couple of days a week (because I have young children at home, and I'm sick of being at home) but I don't want to go back full time. I think it would be good to spend half the time in the office.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 11:11

        That would mean a big property bubble in CBD area. And price hike in suburban areas.

        Edit: I mean for businesses property. Like Cafe, pubs, etc.

        • Bid Sniper on 20/05/2020 - 11:49
          +1

          Have a friend with a boomer CEO, typical bum on seats type of management. But after he's seen that productivity is actually up and can significantly reduce office space rental operational costs overheads is moving to remote.

          So that and will business bankruptcies, commercial property will take a serious downturn. One desperate sales angle on domain I saw was selling warehouse space for "personal man caves" lol you know they're clutching at straws and they are seeing the iceburg.

          • CarnivalMonkey on 21/05/2020 - 17:17

            @Bid Sniper: the warehouse mancaves have been going on for years. as in actual pool table/bar/toys kind of thing, not just a bunch of mates who put in and rent a workshop for working on all their cars over a couple years.

            people selling up big homes to move into apartments and have a stack of cash and buying some space outright is also not super uncommon for toy storage (toys being cars/bikes/collectibles) while having a space within it to relax/unwind/watch pornhub

      • Bid Sniper on 20/05/2020 - 11:44

        Think its a healthy balance to be home part time, those hours reclaimed and not wasting in transport is better spent with family and exercise.

        I've been in this part time mode for the last two months and it works (for me anyway). I still need to go in and do physical things but can do admin/email side at home just fine.

    • inherentchoice on 20/05/2020 - 12:26
      +2

      Vaccine is 18 months away

      A lot of experts say a vaccine is 5 years away or more, or may never come.

      There is no vaccine for Hepatitis C or HIV/AIDS.

      No one ever made a vaccine for any other strain of coronavirus. And coronaviruses were first discovered in the 1930s!

      I believe it will become endemic, with no vaccine in sight, and the only immunity will be in people who have recovered.

      Therefore, the biggest mistake in history may be the sheer level of restrictions for no herd immunity.

      https://www.dennisprager.com/column/the-worldwide-lockdown-m…

      • Bid Sniper on 20/05/2020 - 13:41
        -2

        There are corona viruses every year, I dont see why a vaccine cant be developed.

      • macrocephalic on 20/05/2020 - 14:56
        +1

        HIV is complex because it actively attacks parts of your immune system which help fight viruses. It also seems to mutate semi regularly. SARS-CoV-2 doesn't seem to mutate much - so it's a better candidate for a vaccine.

        • Archi on 20/05/2020 - 17:13
          +2

          SARS-CoV-2 doesn't seem to mutate much - so it's a better candidate for a vaccine

          its only been 5 months since the first case. we don't have a vaccine for Sars-CoV-1 this Covid 19 maybe the same a vaccine may never be produced

          • AncientWisdom on 20/05/2020 - 23:39
            +3

            @Archi: We don't have a vaccine to SARS because it resolved itself so governments pulled all the research money back.

            • try2bhelpful on 21/05/2020 - 00:53
              +1

              @AncientWisdom: Actually, we still don’t know of they would’ve got a vaccine if the kept going. Pulling the money, certainly, stopped the research. It is a tad of a shame as it might’ve given us a head start on this one.

            • Ozpit on 21/05/2020 - 10:10

              @AncientWisdom: This^. SARS disappeared because it was prevented from finding new hosts (although samples are locked away in numerous labs). Let’s hope the current rendition of SARS does the same.

      • trapper on 22/05/2020 - 14:13

        Hepatitis C and HIV are retroviruses, so very different. They get into the cell nucleus and change the actual DNA.

      • trapper on 22/05/2020 - 17:13

        I believe it will become endemic, with no vaccine in sight, and the only immunity will be in people who have recovered.

        Immunity to other coronaviruses only lasts a year or so, then you can be reinfected.

  • nubzy on 20/05/2020 - 11:48

    Self employed and work from home is the way to go!

    • Hangryuman on 22/05/2020 - 10:28
      -1

      'Self employed and work from home'

      yes - no need to work zero-hours contracts to earn a measly $15ph

      when you can work 100 hrs/wk and earn zero-dollars - yay !

      oh wait - did you say working from your PARENTS' home … ?

      no worries then - stay as long as you like - if your business fails, you can hope to eventually inherit the house -

      as long as your parents didn't guarantee the loan for your business, which fails, and the bank forecloses and evicts them (and you) from their retirement home onto the street …

  • inherentchoice on 20/05/2020 - 12:20
    -2

    We CAN go to work like normal today but apparently we'd be risking fines and lives. Who'd have ever thought work could have ever been considered so dangerous?

    And most people won't because they've adopted the hysteria, or they just don't want to go back.

    • mskeggs on 20/05/2020 - 15:53
      +7

      A vaccine “might” be hard to develop. The disease “might” become endemic. People have “adopted the hysteria”.
      Why are you so dismissive of the danger of a disease that has killed many abroad, and is new so has many unknowns?

      Australia’s response has definitely reduced deaths by a great number. Countries abroad are having economic trouble too, but with many deaths. Why not seek to minimise infections and deaths, resume lower risk economic activity as is happening, and wait and see before opening up international travel and other higher risk activity?

      • try2bhelpful on 20/05/2020 - 16:52
        +3

        I’m with you. We may only be experiencing round one of this thing. We could have a lot of asymptomatic, or low level symptom people, out there and it really kicks off when it hits nursing homes. As seen by overseas when this thing gets ticking it can ramp up quickly. We need to proceed cautiously and do a lot of testing. People like to “bag” Dan, but I’m pretty happy to be a couple of weeks behind the other states. Sit back, wait for some hard data from Interstate, take a step forward then keep the testing up with each step forward. Rinse and repeat. Better than stepping forward hastily and having to retreat even further back. What would be an absolute shame is if we did so well and then blew it by being careless. We do need to make progress but we really don’t know what is going to happen next.

        • w37hsyea on 22/05/2020 - 10:38
          +1

          The Vic Premier has done an amazing job in my opinion. It was sad to see the federal education minister blast Dan on keeping public schools safe in Victoria, when the fed minister had his own family in private schooling.

          • try2bhelpful on 22/05/2020 - 13:41
            +1

            @w37hsyea: Oh yeah, and Dutton having a go at the Qld Premier this morning. I thought the muppets were going to lay out some stages then leave it to the States to determine the timetable? The concept is you set an expectation then try to exceed it. I’m sure, if the whole things doesn’t go tits up in the other states, the timetable will come forward. What is the point of setting July and then NSW becomes a hot spot. A couple of weeks of data from NSW, and Victoria, should give her some hard data to work with. Funny how these guys bash the Labor State leaders and don’t say boo about the Liberal ones.

      • inherentchoice on 21/05/2020 - 03:47
        -1

        Why are you so dismissive of the danger of the global lockdowns?

        "There is no doubt in my mind that when we come to look back on this, the damage done by lockdown will exceed any saving of lives by a huge factor.”

        -Michael Levitt, professor of structural biology at Stanford Medical School and Nobel prize winner

        https://www.dennisprager.com/column/the-worldwide-lockdown-m…

        I think the lockdown was justified for a few weeks or more, but now there is no reason to not open everything up. There is surely extreme minimal risk of even dropping the 1.5 metre rule. Perhaps everywhere except Sydney and Melbourne where there are still hotpots and community transmission.

        We were told that the lockdown was to flatten the curve and slow the virus so that we don't exceed our ICU and hospital capacity. The idea was to maintain infection levels below that limit, meanwhile gaining some herd immunity as much as possible. Fair enough. We were told and are still told its not about eradication, as the virus will be here until a vaccine. But you know that the number of people hospitalised for the virus never really went higher than 20. That means the curve has never gone anywhere near our hospital capacity. That's not even a curve! You know they brought in 7000 ventilators to Australia but at the moment we are using only 7. At this rate we will have to maintain lockdown restrictions and bar international travel for DECADES before there is any level of herd immunity.

        Right now QLD has only 12 active cases. WA has 3, SA 0 and NT 0.

        NSW has over 400 active cases and just announced they are allowing travel from 1 June and will have a full ski season.

        Meanwhile QLD is being such a nanny state for only 12 cases. 5 million people locked up and thousands have lost their jobs, businesses and livelihoods over 12 active cases, and all when most cases came in from overseas!

        "Until its safe" means never.

        Surely one of the greatest mistakes ever.

        • try2bhelpful on 21/05/2020 - 08:38
          +5

          Sorry but people who use tropes like “nanny state” undermine their own argument; it is childish, lazy and irritating. May I suggest “overly cautious” as an alternative.

          The figures you are quoting are because we took the steps to minimise the disease. Look at the countries that didn’t act as swiftly as we did. Sweden, where they have maintained “normality” and their death rate is significantly higher than their neighbours. Brazil, where their President thought their Latin constitution would make them immune, the UK who flirted with “herd immunity” and the poster child of America. In fact the science is still out on if “herd immunity” is even possible or if people can get infected a second time.

          Nobody is expecting the situation to be entirely safe. However, given this whole thing started off with only a few people infected we can’t dismiss a “handful” of cases. Nobody intends “lockdown” to be ongoing, however, we are only 6 months, roughly, to get to this point so it is counterproductive to rush to normality. The cases you are citing are “known” cases. As we found out, in Victoria, there can be hundreds of cases out there we don’t know about until someone gets tested and the tracking starts. This is a particular problem with the casualisation of our workforce where people don’t have access to sick leave, they will keep working. If this person works in nursing homes the consequences can be dead residents, if it is transport it can be shutting down multiple sites for cleaning and sending many others into isolation. Frankly, we haven’t even sorted out the issue of how public transport will work. Moving masses of people, in crowded tin cans for significant lengths of time, is probably not optimum for reducing the likelihood of infections; but that is what we will need to do if we want our economy back.

          The restrictions are lifting, in a measured way. It is too slow for some and too quick for others. The bigger disaster is if we get things up and running and a second wave sends us back into retreat. Traditionally second waves do come with Pandemics, they can be more deadly than the first and it can take months for them to reappear. What you really don’t want is the “extreme cautious” to be proven right by a large second wave, because getting people back to “normality” will take significantly longer then.

          Me, I’m happy with measured steps and a lot of testing. Give people the confidence to go out. I’m not a shrinking violet on this. We went to WA for a holiday in what turned out to be the last week before their borders “closed”. We are out exercising, and shopping, for roughly 2-3 hours daily. We get takeaway. We don’t wear masks. But, we do keep social distancing and use hand sanitiser. We had sore throats and runny noses so we got ourselves tested, it came back negative. Now we have some general idea in the community we need to direct our testing to known hot spot groups. Unfortunately we will need to test these people on reasonably high rotation to stop the disease spreading widely before we know it. What we could really use now is a fast turnaround test so we can detect infected people quickly and easily. This would be a good interim measure until/if we get a vaccine.

          What QLD is doing is setting “expectations”. If NSW “opening” proves to be a success then QLD will accelerate their timetable. If the NSW experiment turns out to be a disaster then QLD looks like they haven’t made the wrong call. This is all about getting hard data and exceeding expectations rather than under delivering. Don’t worry, the US is about to give us a truckload of hard data for us to work with. If the disease is no longer an “issue” then the QLD premier can accelerate opening citing the experience of the “bigger risk” America. Cities used to be able to withstand sieges, for years; our economies apparently “collapse“ after a few months of setbacks. Something to ponder.

          • inherentchoice on 21/05/2020 - 10:40
            -5

            @try2bhelpful: If the article I linked is right, if the Nobel prize-winning professor is right, then there will be much blood and suffering on the hands of all who are making and supporting unnecessary lockdowns and isolation of healthy people.

            You are making assertions without evidence, and potentially you are risking supporting mass poverty, starvation, upheaval and death? There's recently been huge locust plagues in Africa decimating crops and food supplies, and this may get worse, so we need our global economy working well as much as possible. Anyway time will tell who is right.

            • try2bhelpful on 21/05/2020 - 11:50
              +5

              @inherentchoice: You want to point out what “assertions” I’m making without evidence and what evidence you have in rebuttal. I look at the worldometer site, every day, and before the shutdowns occurred the graphs were exponentially increasing. 20 million people were killed by the Spanish Flu; we have no idea what the toll is going to be with this one. We, also, have no idea on what the toll would have been without the lockdowns being in place, but given the experience of some countries, like Brazil, it would’ve been a lot higher. I think we do need to go forward, but in a measured fashion with testing in place. One Professor does not a “summer make”; there are plenty of epidemiologists around the world who are still urging caution. BTW, What sort of an economic system can’t afford to have a brake applied for a couple of months? Maybe we need to be looking at our economic models, they appear to be lacking solid foundations.

              As to the locust plagues. We are still growing food, we might even have some spare Barley we can sell to them cheap. The global “economy” has never really given a toss about the starving in Africa, if fact, they have been busily getting them to grow “cash” crops rather than feeding their own people to service debts. Not unknown for corrupt regimes to take loans, cream off the money, and hock their countries to cover it. What will really decimate Africa is if the disease gets in there. They won’t have the health resources to manage the outbreak and social distancing, or even sanitation, are a luxury they can’t afford.

              As, I indicated I am not against progress, it just needs to be done in a measured way ensuring that testing shows we are doing things at the right speed. We have, already, seen timetables come forward based on testing and hard evidence. The real problem with saying “Time will tell who is right” is you can’t see what the alternative would be. Just how many people is an acceptable number to kill to keep the economy going? Unfortunately, for those of us who are suggesting restraint, it isn’t possible to see the death toll without the restraints put in place but, given the escalation paths, prior to implementation, it would’ve been large. Have a look at worldometers and look at their graphs.

              We were very, very lucky. The ladies T20 final could’ve been a bloodbath. 86,000 people crammed into the MCG yelling their lungs out. The bush fires meant we had less visitors, especially in regional areas, and it also meant our Governments were a bit more responsive to crisis.

              I don’t think that capitalism will collapse because we take a few more weeks to look at the data. Frankly, if it does, then it isn’t a great basis for a world economy in the first place.

            • w37hsyea on 22/05/2020 - 10:39

              @inherentchoice: Stop putting weight on a Nobel price winner. Its a fallacy to rely upon.

          • smashman42 on 21/05/2020 - 10:48
            +2

            @try2bhelpful: On the "economic costs are worse than the disease" angle - debunked by orders of magnitude

            https://theconversation.com/the-costs-of-the-shutdown-are-ov…

            • netjock on 21/05/2020 - 13:34
              +2

              @smashman42:

              "economic costs are worse than the disease" angle

              If they wanted to protect the economy they would have wind down passenger air, land and sea travel at end of Jan 2020. Contain the spread. Only the politicians could do it. But they all thought about the economy. Now it is going to cost a lot more money to fix.

        • GrueHunter on 21/05/2020 - 22:12
          +2

          You mean the same Michael Levitt who's been really, really quiet since he got lucky with a prediction about China when it was already obvious that their authoritarian crackdown would make a massive difference to the spread of the virus, then in late March made a prediction that the US would do much better than China because he could totally tell it was all slowing down? And at that time China had an estimated 3200 COVID deaths and the US only had 800 so it seemed like a really safe bet? But China capped out at around 4200 deaths and the US is 95,000 dead and rising? The Michael Levitt who's a chemist and has no epidemiology qualifications to speak of? That Michael Levitt?

        • trapper on 22/05/2020 - 11:33

          This is whole economy vs lock-down thing is a false choice.

          This virus will never just be allowed to spread freely in the community, the economic consequences of that would be absolutely devastating. Even if the govt lifted all restrictions tomorrow, people are not stupid and when they see thousands of people dead things are not going to be economical 'normal'.

          If we reopen too early then it will start to spread again, and we will soon be back in lock-down. It is that simple.

          The number of known active cases isn't what we need to worry about here. It is any new cases from non-quarantined sources that we need to watch. This needs to be zero for several weeks before we can start to feel confident there are no longer any actives cases in the community.

  • lainey13 on 20/05/2020 - 19:43
    +2

    Good workplaces will allow people to WFH when they want to, implement social distancing measures in the office and not force anybody to come in at set times.
    Bad workplaces will go back to normal as quickly as possible.
    So far there's been no official word from my work place on a return to the office, but it's pretty much given nobody's going back to the office until at least July. I hope my cheese triangles haven't gone off by then.

  • ms_caz on 20/05/2020 - 19:59

    … and meanwhile, we are being forced to go back to work next week, to a working environment where it is impossible to meet the spatial/density guidelines, and where the very thought of maintaining social distance is just laughable. The Department of Education's response to minimising risk in the classroom - keep the windows open and the fans on. It's going to be 13 degrees this week. I'm looking forward to wearing my coat in the classroom, but at least my nose and fingers will be warm with mask and gloves.

  • dimitryp on 21/05/2020 - 10:48

    my workplace (a blue-chip) is considering a July back-to-office, in line with NSW govt advice. They're putting in lots of measures though - more distant that usual hot-desks, desk deep-cleaned every night, no kitchen use, only 4 people per lift (usually 10-15).

    While work-from-home has always been acceptable at my workplace for 1-2 days per week, it will definitely become more so and i think lots of people will work half the week from home.
    There's also serious consideration of reducing office floor-space being leased.

    So yes, i think Covid-19 will have a long lasting impact on how we work at my workplace.

    • Hangryuman on 22/05/2020 - 10:19

      'hot-desks, desk deep-cleaned every night'

      so - more jobs for cleaners ? ah - the temporary visa workers can come back !

      you know, those 'international students' (wink, wink!)

  • netjock on 21/05/2020 - 13:25

    Edit: how do you think the young graduates who has just started their career will be like 3 years from now? Will they be as capable as their seniors?

    Definitely more capable with Instagram. Is graduates now better their graduates from 3 years ago? People have their priorities in the wrong places.

    In the office again. Yes of course but you just have to leave every second seat empty and be able to control yourself from getting close to colleagues. Yes, some people have no impulse control. COVID-19 is really for those people with lack of self control (for social distancing).

    • 811b11e8 on 21/05/2020 - 21:15
      +1

      Problem is you have non believers who won't social distance.

  • christopher8827 on 21/05/2020 - 14:27

    I think the post-COVID world is going to look a bit different:

    • Social distancing means cities will need to be reconfigured for cycling, since public transport won't cope in peak hours.
    • More remote work or work from home
    • More people will be eating/dining at home - so more food deliveries
    • More travelling interstate and the end of overseas trips
    • Companies that can't WFH/remote will probably die out
    • Social groups will be smaller - instead of people randomly running into each other to keep social interactions going, they will need to be more pro-active.
    • Hunter14 on 22/05/2020 - 13:54

      What do you mean by post-COVID? No more COVID?

      If we find a vaccine and totally eliminate the virus, do we still need these measures particularly the first and last one?

      I would imagine these (legitimate) points would only be necessary for a world with no COVID cure.

  • syousef on 21/05/2020 - 15:36
    +2

    I'm not exactly sure which day it was but I get the feeling that sometime during this mess I had a brain aneurysm in my sleep and never woke up. Instead I'm living in a dream based on the TV series "Yes, Minister".

    Here's the reality. Unemployment is going to be high for some time. Employers are going to use that scarcity of employment to further there own interests with little regard for employees, beyond paying lip service to legislation and selling themselves as "employer of choice" with whatever language their marketers and HR can muster. If you don't like it, fine, quit. Someone else will want the job. Don't forget that if you can do most of your work remotely, your job can probably be outsourced sooner or later. If we see wave 2, and there's a very good chance of that, I don't expect shutdowns unless the mortality rate increases to 10x or more unexpectedly.

    The situation has put into stark view the fact that we have an economic system that can't withstand "hibernation". That should be no surprise. Even a pandemic can't manage infinite exponential growth and real curves are logistic curves. But our economists have built their models predicated on good times meaning infinite economic growth. This can't work. Our resources aren't infinite and our environment can't sustain infinite abuse and still sustain human activity that we know.

    It's going to be a rough decade or so at least. Probably longer. Best case, those of us in our 40s might be able to actually retire. I'm not holding my breath. Worst case, we're witnessing the modern equivalent of the slow decline that was the fall of Rome, but this time we have technology that could make it fatal to the species.

  • worrierwan on 21/05/2020 - 15:48

    Recent grad here who just entered the workforce. I think our learning will be affected because there just isnt that face to face training interaction + our connections with our coworkers probably weren't as strong as every other worker so our relationships/connections will suffer. Personally i think it affected me but i've been coping okay in turns of work output based on feedback i've gotten. Im also not sure how it would affect our ability to promote since managers and higher ups are not really seeing or interacting with us

  • noshopping on 21/05/2020 - 16:03

    Where is the option for: Never?
    If you can work remotely, surely lots of company bosses are probably contemplating foreign outsourcing for the very first time. We're at a point now where technology is no longer a barrier (e.g. crystal clear HD conferencing, no lag remote desktop).

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