Who Is Going to Pay for All This?

Trying2SaveABuck on 07/04/2020 - 22:16
Last edited 07/04/2020 - 23:08

Who is going to pay for all this sh!t?

With sweeping policies regarding government spending aimed at helping businesses and unemployed during COVID19

The government is having over 700m to airlines (probably more in the end if virgin gets cash too)

130billion in their job seeker program

Millions more in beefed up welfare payments

On top of that extra funding is urgently needed to our healthcare system incase this crisis worsens

Over 1-2million jobs will be lost and unemployment is tipped it hit around 10%

Pretty much every industry bleeding money it asking for a hand out

Keep in mind we just had horrible bushfires….

When this is all said and done who is going to pay for this?

I agree with most of what the government is trying to do because desperate times call for desperate measures though i cant help but feel that we will be incredibility screwed for generations to come…eventually the dust will settle and who will fit the tab because we will essentially be in the worst financial position Australia has been in most of our lifetimes…. And unlike the GFC we aren’t in a mining boom to help us out…

Update

ill add this should Australia stop all international aid, refugee re-settlement programs and essentially humanitarianism for at least the next 5 years?

Financial

Comments

        • Pimpiticians 4 Life on 08/04/2020 - 21:50

          True people wanting to do back-burning on their property in the country (and surrounding areas) were told they would be fined by their loser councils.

          Council can buy useless artwork worth tens of thousands + go on overseas junkets with your cash/rates and some losers support the fines these clown's hand out - pathetic.

      • ThithLord on 08/04/2020 - 08:41
        +12

        Oh my god, there are still idiots parroting that the Greens had anything to do with the bushfires? Explains your constant commenting on Social Welfare, your hatred of da gays, etc. Christ, you're an embarrassment.

        • Trying2SaveABuck on 08/04/2020 - 23:34
          -6

          Yeh I’m against welfare or at least the way our welfare system is structured gives to doll bludgers and junkies doesn’t really help those who actually lose there job and fall on hard times because of means testing
          No issue with people of any sexual preference I dunno where you ripped that from

          The greens leader did resign don’t know what you hippies are crying about that isn’t Murdoc fiction it is a FACT
          Perhaps it was bad PR but the greens party is less popular then one nation if you ask me atm mostly because hippies like you can handle the fact that you are hippies? I dunno

          Peer reviewed media please Journalist are the 2nd most untrustworthy people in the country….

          • Scamwatcher on 09/04/2020 - 00:13

            @Trying2SaveABuck: It's their in that context, Chief.

          • ThithLord on 09/04/2020 - 07:59
            +1

            @Trying2SaveABuck:

            Yeh I’m against welfare or at least the way our welfare system is structured gives to doll bludgers and junkies doesn’t really help those who actually lose there job and fall on hard times because of means testing

            I'm actually quite touched you have such a concern for newly casual workers, immigrants, New Zealanders - they're missing out completely on these new welfare measures. You're quite the sweetheart, aren't you?

            The greens leader did resign don’t know what you hippies are crying about that isn’t Murdoc fiction it is a FACT

            Mate I don't know what the absolute frick you are smoking (as OzB's like to say - put the pipe down), no one is crying about the Greens leader resigning and bruv - I don't vote for the Greens and I doubt I ever would. You are obsessed with identity politics! It's kinda cute, but it's becoming lethargic.

            Perhaps it was bad PR but the greens party is less popular then one nation if you ask me atm mostly because hippies like you can handle the fact that you are hippies? I dunno

            Site a source. No one cares that you ask your mate barry what he thinks of the Greens.

            Peer reviewed media please Journalist are the 2nd most untrustworthy people in the country….

            Yeah if you get your opinion formed from the Murdoch media, sure.

      • KBZ on 08/04/2020 - 10:03
        +4

        LOL you actually believed that narrative, god you're dumb.

        • Yawhae on 08/04/2020 - 11:40

          Hey! There's no reason to bring God into this. He sat idle while the country burned,and he sits idle again while this virus spreads. He's obviously busy doing more important things.

          • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 13:19

            @Yawhae:

            There's no reason to bring God into this

            Bring who?

            • Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
            • Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
            • Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from?
            • Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
            • Skinnerr on 08/04/2020 - 20:35
              +2

              @[Deactivated]: Put down the joint mate.

              • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 20:49
                +1

                @Skinnerr: I apologise if I've hurt your sensibilities but that's just how I roll…How I roll , get it? :p

    • bronan on 07/04/2020 - 23:09
      +18

      Uh… the LP are the terrible economic managers. The Abbott/Turbull administration put the AU economy into a fifteen year low, whereas the last Labor government saw our economy as the strongest internationally (that's not hyperbole).

      • nomoneynoproblems on 08/04/2020 - 08:21

        Had nothing to do with a world superpower going through once in a generation economical transformation at all. Downhill skiers. We had a massive mining boom and nothing to show for it.

        • Yawhae on 08/04/2020 - 11:41
          +5

          When you effectively pay mining companies to mine your country isn't it obvious why there's not much to show for it.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 22:35
      +1

      most single tax payers earning about average wage and people with children earning about $150,000+, will be paying even more and if labor gets in with a bunch of greens, these people should live in fear, wealth taxes, death taxes, absolutely punitive taxes… anything could happen.

      Maybe it is time to jump ship: trade this island for another one. I've heard good things about Cayman Islands ;)

    • zine21 on 09/04/2020 - 13:50

      lol the whole death tax/inheritance tax etc were just bs lies created during the election to discourage votes for labor

  • battler on 07/04/2020 - 22:37
    +5

    i cant help but feel that we will be incredibility screwed for generations to come…eventually the dust will settle and who will fit the tab because we will essentially be in the worst financial position Australia has been in most of our lifetimes

    Agree. The whole economy is going to pay. Even Blind Freddy can see that this is not a temporary issue. There will be long term ramifications to the way we as a society live, work and play(incl travel) - those people/companies/countries that adjust and adapt will be the 'winners'. We cannot expect to go back to the merry latte sipping, smashed avo society we were before.
    So who is going to pay - EVERYONE.

    • pjetson on 07/04/2020 - 22:45
      +1

      So, what's your alternative?

      • bronan on 07/04/2020 - 22:52
        +3

        I'll be very surprised if you find a global economist on OzBargain that can actually answer a question that open.

        I worry that at this point, all we're doing is delaying the inevitable.

      • Mad Max on 07/04/2020 - 23:02
        +2

        Eventually a lot of people will need to learn to toughen up and make do. Yes "learn" because many don't have a clue on how to survive tough times.

    • p1 ama on 07/04/2020 - 23:51
      -1

      There will be long term ramifications to the way we as a society live, work and play

      No there isn't. This is just hyped-up media nonsense. This time next year, you'll likely go to work like you always did, eat out at the places you always did, watch the sports you always did, do the same job you always did and do all the things you always did.

      • Yawhae on 08/04/2020 - 09:49
        +2

        Yep, while slowly realising your pay isn't increasing any time soon, as stores slowly jack up the prices because now all money is worth less.

        • p1 ama on 11/04/2020 - 23:06

          Yep, while slowly realising your pay isn't increasing any time soon, as stores slowly jack up the prices because now all money is worth less.

          I agree, there is a market crash. Pay will likely fall (in real terms), asset prices will fall, people will lose money.

          However, my original statement still stands. There will not be long term ramifications to the way we as a society live, work and play, which was the original contention.

          For the vast, vast majority of people, life will be very similar in 2021 vs. 2019.

      • Tambani on 09/04/2020 - 09:52

        Do you have any friends who own their own business? Many industries are devestated. Businesses collapsing all over the place. That's jobs gone, financial and human capital wasted. There's no fast recovery from that.

        • p1 ama on 11/04/2020 - 23:09

          Businesses collapsing all over the place. That's jobs gone, financial and human capital wasted. There's no fast recovery from that.

          This is irrelevant to what I said. I never said anything about recovery. The contention I replied to was that there would be "long term ramifications to the way we as a society live, work and play".

          Yes, there are people who will lose jobs, perhaps their house, perhaps their business, perhaps a large chunk of their asset values. It's not going to change the way society lives, works or plays.

          Life in 2021/2022 will be very similar to 2018/2019. Just like how life before/after the GFC and "recession we had to have" were largely similar for the vast majority as well.

  • qwerty on 07/04/2020 - 22:42
    +10

    GST probably going to go up to 15% like NZ

    • jnewau on 08/04/2020 - 09:57
      +3

      The neocons will be rubbing their hands together at the prospect of what can be done in the name of paying this debt back.

      I agree, 15% GST has been on the cards for a while as they continually erode the tax base with tax cuts, I think this will be the excuse they need to push it over.

      Expect to also see them try and sell everything else that hasn't already been flogged off, such as the ABC, NBN etc

      • StickMan on 08/04/2020 - 10:29
        +1

        NBN is/was going to get sold off anyway, it's part of the plan.

        • doowhydiddi on 08/04/2020 - 14:04

          What else is a part of the plan? I'm curious as you sound like you are aware.

      • yannyrjl on 10/04/2020 - 00:32

        I find the ABC is kinda like the BBC in the UK, at least in the UK they transparently enough to charge a fee for it. The prime real estates it owns is another story …

  • Bayleaf on 07/04/2020 - 23:04
    +3

    International students at the universities

    P/s: I used to be one.

    • bronan on 07/04/2020 - 23:11

      Well education is Australia’s third-largest export sector.

      • GC1 on 08/04/2020 - 06:06
        +8

        WAS our third largest export?

      • suchcha on 08/04/2020 - 09:05

        These figures aren't a true representation of the actual money brought in to the country. Most international students earn most of their tution fees and living costs within Australia. That's why they are now demanding for government handouts.

        • Tambani on 09/04/2020 - 10:01
          +2

          There is no way the majority of international students are affording to pay their tuition fees with the amount of money they earn, after living expenses.

          Family support is common.

  • MS Paint on 07/04/2020 - 23:22

    Whatever ivi says. That's my answer too.

  • p1 ama on 07/04/2020 - 23:42
    +114

    I think I have a reasonable background to try and tackle this question. I'm a research economist, I've written papers on tax policy. PhD at a major Australian university, previously an economic analyst for the Australian government, have taught economics for many years…etc.

    It might be worth first separating monetary and fiscal policy. We've done everything we can from a monetary perspective. The RBA has cut rates as low as they're likely to cut it and evidence is showing that further quantitative easing is unlikely to make much of a difference. So there's pretty much no point in debating monetary policy in any further detail at this stage really.

    So now let's talk about fiscal policy. The question of "who's going to pay for it" is not really a valid question because it assumes that this is like buying a new toy. It's not like that at all, it's more like buying insurance. Therefore, the question that we should be asking is what will happen with and without stimulus and whether the benefit from the stimulus is likely to outweigh the costs of the stimulus now. In other words, think of this as an investment. We are now trying to figure out whether that investment will yield positive returns.

    So what exactly would happen if we simply just sat on our hands and did nothing? It would be likely that the harm would be far greater. Just the fallout from the market collapse alone would decimate a lot of the savings we currently hold in superannuation. The collapse of businesses will make hundreds of thousands of people unemployed, resulting in more people accessing welfare and a reduction in tax revenue. So before we begin the discussion of what to do, realise that the middle class will generally be worse off without any intervention in this case. Not just the people who lose their jobs, but everybody else too. Your goods are going to go up in price due to less competition, if you own a house, its value will be decimated, if you own stocks, you're screwed, your superannuation is going to be screwed, you're going to have much less chance of promotion, essentially we're all going to be screwed if the economy goes to sh1ts.

    Many may not realise it, many others may deny it due to partisan loyalty, but the Rudd stimulus was one of the best investments anyone has ever made. If you have a job today, you've already made a positive return as it's likely your pay will be lower without the Rudd stimulus. If you have a property, you've already made a positive returns several times over because we avoided the property market crash that the US saw. If you had any amount of superannuation, again, you would have made a positive return many times over as well. I'm not partisan, I think a lot of the stuff Rudd did was horrendously stupid (school halls, insulation…etc.), but the Rudd stimulus saved an entire generation.

    The problem with the "who's gonna pay for it" argument is that it makes the assumption that if we just don't do anything, then things will be fine and we're just spending money to help a small minority of people, essentially subsidising them. However, that is not the point. These policies are not redistributive policies. If they were, they would be much harsher and the implementation would be much different. This is about spending $1 to save $1.50 and we're much better off for it.

    • MS Paint on 08/04/2020 - 00:05
      +5

      I was thinking the same but was not sure whether to post.

    • Pimpiticians 4 Life on 08/04/2020 - 00:54
      +4

      The world is due for an economic reset. The crown virus is perfect cover to blame a collapsing economic system of debt and death with record levels of debt world wide before everything was even shut down. The US war/reserve currency is the only thing still holding this together.

      https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/15/global-debt-surged-to-a-reco…

      https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-deb…

      • p1 ama on 08/04/2020 - 01:16
        +35

        The world is due for an economic reset.

        I don't know what you mean by an "economic reset", but there are certainly remnants of the 2007-8 GFC that we haven't been able to shrug yet, most notably the lowest interest rates on record. From a monetary policy perspective, interest rates are used to control the level of consumption and savings. The recovery post 2008 was largely due to a successful push (both from a monetary and fiscal perspective) towards higher levels of consumption. The world got used to low interest rates and it was always going to be difficult to increase rates without crippling the economy - again due to the higher levels of post-GFC debt.

        You could make the argument that this COVID-19 crash comes at a bad time because we haven't fully recovered from the 2007-8 GFC, but none of that is relevant because we didn't choose when this crash hit. The question now is simply how best to deal with the situation we're in.

        The crown virus is perfect cover to blame a collapsing economic system of debt and death with record levels of debt world wide before everything was even shut down.

        That's simply just not true. There's no indication that the economy prior to COVID-19 was at any real risk of imminent collapse. Yes, substituting towards consumption away from savings during the GFC recovery definitely left us more vulnerable to a crash, but like I alluded to before, that's outside of our control now. The levels of debt that we had right before the COVID-19 crash was not crippling - it's similar to the levels we had after the great depression and during WWII.

        The US war/reserve currency is the only thing still holding this together.

        Again, this makes little sense to me.

        Ultimately the "debt" argument is silly. Economics, particularly macro, is just about substituting between present and future consumption, savings and investment. Despite all the advances in macro theory over the years, this is what it comes down to. The general aim of macro is to achieve consumption smoothing such that we borrow to keep consumption up during bad times and save more to keep consumption down during good times.

        Rising and falling levels of debt is normal and exactly what you would want and expect. It's just unfortunate that economics has become so extremely politicised.

        • mskeggs on 08/04/2020 - 07:09
          +12

          Good set of posts p1 ama.

        • Ghost47 on 08/04/2020 - 10:26
          +4

          IMO "debt" is what the government uses to coerce dumb people for votes because in the voter's minds "debt is bad!".

        • Pimpiticians 4 Life on 08/04/2020 - 20:47
          +2

          FMD the 2007-2008 GFC was a bank bail out plain and simple.

          This is debt that can't be paid back.
          This is debt that is designed not to be paid back.
          This is debt that will NEVER be paid back.

          Liberal/Labor/Democrat/Republican etc are all turds in the same toilet bowl - do what they are told by the banker overlords.

          Look up Christine Lagarde IMF January 2014 Speech - these are not sane people in charge of the economy.
          https://youtu.be/ZUXTzVj5-uE?t=395

          https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex-currencies/09231…

        • Dabas on 09/04/2020 - 11:25

          Interesting argument about debt p1 ama. Whats your thoughts on the high level of debt Australians have on housing and Government keeps the housing bubble going by allowing cheap money and easy lending of money to people.

          • p1 ama on 09/04/2020 - 14:43
            -1

            @Dabas:

            Whats your thoughts on the high level of debt Australians have on housing

            It's not really much of a problem. Interest rates aren't going up any time soon.

            Government keeps the housing bubble going by allowing cheap money and easy lending of money to people

            Governments don't decide interest rates, that's monetary policy. Banks decide who to lend to, not governments. Little the government can do about this.

            • Dabas on 09/04/2020 - 20:28

              @p1 ama: Interest rates are not a problem atleast as of now but unemployment numbers are already started shooting up. If everything goes well in economy , debt is never a problem but when something goes wrong it becomes a house of cards ab with high level of debt. People doing temporary jobs gets loans for 1 mill houses, That's a problem I guess. Let's wait for next 6-12 months , it will be difficult time for Australian economy .

            • Bystander on 17/04/2020 - 16:19

              @p1 ama:

              high level of debt Australians have on housing…
              It's not really much of a problem.

              Yes it is.
              It's a ticking time bomb.
              The price of real estate in MEL, SYD, and other cities is just plain ridiculously high and well overdue for a significant correction. Lowering interest rates to this level is one of the primary causes of our crazy RE prices. Just because "Interest rates aren't going up any time soon" doesn't make the high debt load a non-issue.

              What happens when a large number of people find they don't have a job, can't pay a mortgage? What happens if the market slips down 15% and some of those distressed borrowers are now looking at negative equity? Having a debt fuelled real estate bubble is a huge problem, potentially destabilising large parts of the economy.

              But we've known this for years. Canberra has known this for years. It's a cheap and easy political stunt to inflate prices giving the population the illusion that they're getting wealthier. And all along Canberra has known full well that the longer and larger they inflate this bubble the worse the carnage will be when it bursts.

          • meumax on 10/04/2020 - 11:53

            @Dabas: High debt held by households is a very real problem but government debt is absolutely not an issue.

            Therefore, just like the GFC a lot of the problems this causes will be solved by transferring of private debt to government debt where it doesn’t matter. Expect more bailouts to be announced in the coming months.

    • leiiv on 08/04/2020 - 02:17
      +1

      So what do you think are the real costs of the stimulus that will manifest into future fiscal and tax policy?

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 08/04/2020 - 08:19
      +6

      Thanks for that P1ama very insightful - i have always bagged out rudd for the stimulus but you have changed my mind on it by putting it that way

    • oztite on 08/04/2020 - 10:29

      I don't disagree that something needs to be done to save the economy, and that the stimulus package is in fact warranted in 2008 and 2020.

      The question still stands though: how are we gonna pay for this? We took on debt to finance this, not from government's own savings. There is interest on this debt. It's clear the taxpayers will pay for it, but HOW are we going to pay for it? Particularly countries like the US. There is no way they can ever pay off the debt they are accumulating at the moment.

      So, will they declare war on China and refuse to pay the debt? Or would they go into hyperinflation of like, 1 million %, to reduce their debt to GDP ratio?

      Borrowing money to save grandma, totally reasonable, now how are we gonna pay back the debt?

      • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 11:26
        +1

        how are we gonna pay for this?

        The same way we pay for any government spending. Cuts elsewhere, in subsequent budgets, or an increase in income.

        It's not rocket science.

        Either we miss out on services and infrastructure upgrades in the near-medium future and slowly pay off this debt, or tax is increased (whether by increasing tax or increasing the tax base I don't know).

        It will more likely be the former, especially if we continue with a coalition government.

        Or, you know. It will just hang around with the other debt and get paid off eventually. It's not a huge deal, really.

      • p1 ama on 08/04/2020 - 13:58
        +1

        The question still stands though: how are we gonna pay for this?

        That's a political, not economic question. Left wing governments will say tax the rich, right wing governments will say cut social services. How we pay for it will depend on who we vote for.

        However, like I say before, the bigger question is not "how are we gonna pay for this", it's "how are we gonna pay to not have this".

        • Lado on 08/04/2020 - 14:39
          -1

          …who we vote for…

          “It’s not the people who vote that count. It’s the people who count the votes.” - J. Stalin

          And this is exactly what happened with 2 latest Federal elections:

          https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-48305001

          For well over two years, the coalition has trailed behind Labor in the opinion polls, and the assumption had been it would be Labor's turn to govern. But SOMEHOW Scott Morrison managed to turn things around at the 11th hour…

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Australian_federal_electi…

          The final outcome in the 76-seat Senate took over FOUR weeks to complete

          • Trying2SaveABuck on 08/04/2020 - 14:57
            +5

            @Lado: Anyone who thinks Labour was going to win the last election was kidding themselves like the same people that thought Hilary would beat Trump.

            Thanks to the poor quality journalism and an PC society the majority of Australians actually cant say what they think. I have experienced this 1st hand in my old work place (public sector) where i have been given disciplinary action for my personal and political views which i didnt even express at work (im not kidding the HR manager came at me for my social media)

            The truth is a majority of people feel like they dont have a 'voice' if you say you are against foreign aid, refugee intake, injecting rooms for junkies, African gangs etc you are not only shouted out you are actually treated like you are you did something wrong opposed to simply having an opinion.

            The problem is that the left dont realize the more you silence people the more people actual turn against you

            • trapper on 08/04/2020 - 15:23
              +1

              @Trying2SaveABuck: The concept of "free speech" didn't come about randomly - it came about from the very hard learned lesson that silencing political speech is dangerous.

              It is scary how little this is understood in the modern era.

            • p1 ama on 08/04/2020 - 15:28
              +6

              @Trying2SaveABuck:

              The problem is that the left dont realize the more you silence people the more people actual turn against you

              This isn't a left vs. right issue. There are plenty of examples of left-leaning people being shut down the moment they start talking about any left wing priorities. E.g. you bring up single-payer healthcare in the US and you'll have right-wingers shouting "socialism" and "communism" at you from the rooftops.

              The problem is that people now view politics as intensely personal. It's no longer just something that people can banter about over drinks. That's true of both people on the left and on the right.

              • Trying2SaveABuck on 08/04/2020 - 15:35
                +1

                @p1 ama: Oh 100% and as someone who supports a socialist view regarding a free healthcare system for all i dont disagree with you but this isnt the USA

                Ill point out 'free health care' system benefits everyone relatively equally but at least 70-80% of modern socialist policies in Australia dont actually benefit the wider domestic community i once again point at the bank loads of refugees we have taken in Australia who have a 91% unemployment rate 3 years post settlement leaning on a welfare system not really trying to find work happy to leech of 'Australia a good country they give you money for nothing'….. however if you out this publicly you are 'racist'

                I would also point out the Animal right idiots disrupting the city, attacking farmers etc no real benefit to anyone if we all stop eating meat it would probably kill the economy etc

                AND dont get me started on Sexual assault in the indigenous community if you mention it you are once again RACIST

                If dont agree with 'gender' quotes' you're sexist!! even if economically gender quotes MAKE NO SENSE

                It isnt only that politics is personal the problem is decisions being made are made on an 'emotional' level and people dont look/accept facts and thus is why i generally dont like socialism because when you try and talk to any strong left winger they pull the racism, sexism, homophobic card 9/10 times

                It isnt that i agree or disagree with the left or rights views i just disagree when one side inability to argue with facts and from everything i've witnessed it is generally the left who are the biggest culprits of these sins - I would even point out israel folau as another example

                • p1 ama on 09/04/2020 - 03:29
                  +4

                  @Trying2SaveABuck:

                  It isnt only that politics is personal the problem is decisions being made are made on an 'emotional' level and people dont look/accept facts and thus is why i generally dont like socialism because when you try and talk to any strong left winger they pull the racism, sexism, homophobic card 9/10 times

                  Sorry but this is just a hot load of garbage. There are people who are left-leaning who will, as you say, throw accusations of racism/sexism or whatever. However, the idea that this is 9/10 people is completely made up. You're just trying to play the victim complex now which is exactly what you accuse others of trying to do.

                  It isnt that i agree or disagree with the left or rights views i just disagree when one side inability to argue with facts and from everything i've witnessed it is generally the left who are the biggest culprits of these sins - I would even point out israel folau as another example

                  Again, this is just not true. There are plenty of examples of the right-wing playing loose with the facts when it suits them. Remember the whole Obama "birther" conspiracy? What about Alex Jones going on TV and claiming Sandy Hook was a hoax?

              • trapper on 08/04/2020 - 15:41
                -2

                @p1 ama:

                you'll have right-wingers shouting "socialism" and "communism" at you from the rooftops.

                But not trying to silence you.

              • trapper on 08/04/2020 - 15:49
                -1

                @p1 ama:

                The problem is that people now view politics as intensely personal. It's no longer just something that people can banter about over drinks.

                It's no more 'personal' now than at any other time.

                You can't banter over drinks anymore because some slimy prick is going to sneak off and try get the other guy fired from his job because he didn't like what he said. People have no respect for free speech.

            • Lado on 08/04/2020 - 16:39

              @Trying2SaveABuck: Frankly I don't care about Labors or Liberals, for me they are the same. But I really care about things that can't happen from the mathematics and statistics point of view, and unfortunately where we are now is a consequence of those events

    • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 16:58
      -1

      but the Rudd stimulus was one of the best investments anyone has ever made.

      Wasn't this mostly possible due to the Costello $20 billion surplus though?

    • Tidy on 08/04/2020 - 22:56

      Thank you for sharing this. I don't really understand the whole economic situation around COVID-19, and reading this makes me feel like I missed out a lot by not going to university.

      But thanks to people like you sharing their knowledge to people like me online, I am able to catch up and understand what's going on around me.

    • Bystander on 19/04/2020 - 10:39

      "who's going to pay for it" is not really a valid question

      It is a valid question. In fact it's one of the more important questions people should be asking. And it's one that the Fin is talking about as well. Ultimately it will be the taxpayers who pay for appallingly bad economic mismanagement by consecutive governments. Canberra et al created the mess and now get to walk away and pass the bill on to us.

      the Rudd stimulus was one of the best investments anyone has ever made

      Really? I don't see evidence for this. Everyone I spoke to just left the bonus in their bank accounts. Anecdotally we hear that many people went out and bought consumer items. Presumably shops and distributors benefited from an uptick in trade but the bulk of the money would be sent offshore to the manufacturing countries of origin. Is that really the best use of money when you're trying to stimulate an economy? Personally I would have preferred to see more money spent on infrastructure that creates jobs and leaves us with an asset that helps the economy grow for many years to come. Free cash just provides a temporary sugar rush.

      The problem with the "who's gonna pay for it" argument is that it makes the assumption that if we just don't do anything, then things will be fine…

      It most certainly does not make any such assumption. It's a fair question given that this situation is not one of our making but we're the ones left with the bill.

  • Emerald Owl on 08/04/2020 - 01:19

    Force the Chinese to pay reparations. World v China and North Korea

    • funnysht on 08/04/2020 - 12:06
      -2

      Did germany or US, or britain pay reparations during the world war? Or is it only the eastern countries that should?

      • Emerald Owl on 08/04/2020 - 13:38
        +8

        Are you serious? Germany paid massive reparations after both World Wars. The US has spent trillions rebuilding the Middle East. Perhaps more history and less Chinese propaganda for you.

        • Pimpiticians 4 Life on 08/04/2020 - 21:07
          +6

          FACT CHECK - The US spent trillions of dollars bombing the middle east!

        • funnysht on 09/04/2020 - 11:21
          +2

          there's a difference between deliberate bombing and destruction vs unintentional virus transmission globally. Besides it's mostly the citizens that are bringing the virus back home.

          • [Deactivated] on 09/04/2020 - 19:37

            @funnysht: Unintentional or negligent?

            CCP knew that human transmission was happening but kept it secret (i.e. cover-up) with their collaborator, the WHO, specifically Tedros.

            • Barbequemilk on 10/04/2020 - 03:49
              +1

              @[Deactivated]: What you talking about?? LOL
              the world knew it since 2-3 month ago.

              • [Deactivated] on 10/04/2020 - 11:15

                @Barbequemilk: Yes, other governments also had a role to act more heavily and quickly.

                But the world was dumb enough to wait on China for more information. However, China kept downplaying the transmission route and effects of the novel coronavirus. Does Li Wenliang's death ring a bell? China's collaborator, the WHO and specifically Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, also helped China to cover up what was happening in Wuhan. This was all happening as early as December 2019. CCP kept their mouths shut…and Tedros assisted them in this misdirection.

                The CCP is at fault and should be held accountable jointly with the WHO

                Timeline of events unfolding: The New York Times

                The WHO's negligent advice for countries to keep their borders open, 29 February 2020: WHO - Recommendations for international trafic

                • Barbequemilk on 10/04/2020 - 12:03
                  +1

                  @[Deactivated]: I recommended you to watch this youtuber, he explained that Us intelligent known this virus will be pandemic from november and has been reported to trump.
                  But trump ignored repeated coronavirus Warnings.

                  https://youtu.be/OozvkPVI7LI

                  It might be ccp fault or it might not.

                  You should find news story presented factually, without any spin toward a political stance or to benefit the owners of the news outlet.

                  • [Deactivated] on 10/04/2020 - 12:11

                    @Barbequemilk:

                    You should find news story presented factually, without any spin toward a political stance or to benefit the owners of the news outlet

                    I presented links from one of the most reputable news sources and a primary source from the WHO itself. The News York Times article didn't contain any interpretation, it was merely presenting the factual timeline. The WHO link contained the actual recommendation…

                    You gave a YouTube video of one man's opinion and interpretation and you're telling me to look at "facts"?

                    Fact: Covid-19 originated in China
                    Fact: Li Wenliang was forced to sign an "apology" by the CCP and he also died from Covid-19

                    And if The NY Times isn't enough for you, here's a Situation Report from the World Health Organization, 21 Jan 2020: WHO - Situation Report

                    And if Seth Meyers is of the view that his government didn't act soon enough, then yes, I'd agree. The US government was slow and apathetic at responding, but the US is not responsible for unleashing the virus onto the world. The virus came from China due to being mishandled by the CCP in the first place.

                    • Barbequemilk on 12/04/2020 - 06:11

                      @[Deactivated]: About Li wenliang, so the situation is a little bit complicated and it's pretty sad. I think everybody recognize that. If we look at the timeline, we can actually see some interesting detail.

                      On 30th of December, he posted to a WeChat group telling some of his friendS, who are mostly also medical professionals, that there has been SARS-like disease detected take care And take precautions and that kind of thing.

                      But he didn't know at that time was That there was already an investigation By the Wuhan cdc. This sort of complicates things. A few days later he was not arrested, but was Instead detained and asked to sign a piece of paper that essentially said, well, you need to admit that You Did this And promised not to do it again. And then he was sent back to work and he later went to work on the Frontlines in hubei, on 10th of January he started exhibiting symptoms.

                      But I do want to clear up a few things about Dr. li, he didn't know there's an investigation. So from His point of view, he was doing the thing That seems honorable, seems the right thing to do? Well that's a question for you.
                      But, I can see that point of view. I can definitely see he's trying to help people. He trying to get the word out. He did do what he thoughts was right At the time.

                      But from investigation point of view, however, that's risky, dangerous thing to do. If you're in team of people That's investigating a disease and then you find out that somebody is telling people on WeChat group, here's the conclusion of this investigation already, even though the investigation is not done, definitely that can be dangerous to the investigation and other things.

                      In late January, the Chinese government issued a statement that essentially acquitted Dr. Li and other doctors who had been questioned for spreading information. So that's the government basically saying we made A mistake silencing this guys. They also said had people to listen to the advice and worn marks and been more cautious, then perhaps the situation would be better now.

                      He said there's new virus and everyone listen. It went out media and everyone heard it And so we know people will try to flee from wuhan for sure And the disease may have spread even faster, even further.

                      As a country as an investigation happening in that country, I can definitely understand why he would be silenced especially in this type Of National security type of issue. When I look at the fact, to me, it doesn't seem like A guarantee that had we listened to him, everything would be much better today. But we don't.

                      You just name me one country that can contained from this virus diseases, every disease will spread to the world such as Spanish flu, swine flu/h1n1 that kill 200 Australian people, have your forgot about that?

                    • Barbequemilk on 12/04/2020 - 06:21

                      @[Deactivated]: Australia had 37,537 confirmed cases of H1N1 Influenza 2009 (Human Swine Influenza) and 191 deaths reported by Department of Health but only 77 deaths reported by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. The actual numbers are much larger, as only serious cases warranted being tested and treated at the time. Suspected cases have not been reported by the Department of Health and Ageing since 18 May 2009 because they were changing too quickly to report. Sources say that as many as 1600 Australians may have actually died as a result of this virus. On 23 May the federal government classified the outbreak as CONTAIN phase except in Victoria where it was escalated to the SUSTAIN phase on 3 June. This gave government authorities permission to close schools in order to slow the spread of the disease. On 17 June 2009 the Department of Health and Ageing introduced a new phase called PROTECT. This modified the response to focus on people with high risk of complications from the disease. Testing at airports was discontinued. The national stockpile of antiviral drugs were no longer made available to people with the flu unless there were more than mild symptoms or a high risk of dying.

                      Tell me which country can contained such as disease like this???

                      • [Deactivated] on 12/04/2020 - 18:33

                        @Barbequemilk: Wow. If Chinese officials were investigating, it makes the situation even worse. It means they outright lied about the virus.

                        This article contains the actual "infringement":Li Wenliang's "Admonishment Notice"

                        It makes even worse because Chinese officials knew beforehand that a virus was in circulation but kept silent and allowed people to attend a banquet, risking at least 40,000 people's lives: Banquet on Jan 18, 2020.

                        The CCP really brainwashes people.

                        Would you prefer to live under the CCP regime in China?

                        • Barbequemilk on 12/04/2020 - 18:51

                          @[Deactivated]: What you talking about? Just let me know which country can contained such as diseases like this? Don't run away, Lol

                          I live and work in Australia and I know which is propaganda/fake news and which is not. I always have few sources of news not only one.

                          It doesn’t matter if a cat is black or white; as long as it catches mice, it’s a good cat.

                          Note; I am not a Chinese

                          • [Deactivated] on 12/04/2020 - 18:56

                            @Barbequemilk:

                            Suspected cases have not been reported by the Department of Health and Ageing since 18 May 2009 because they were changing too quickly to report

                            Where are you getting the figures from?

                            I find it hard to trust what you're saying without official figures from legitimate sources.

                            Here is the official report: Australian Influenza Surveillance Report, 2009

                            Just let me know which country can contained such as diseases like this?

                            Australia. We're doing pretty well compared to other countries at the moment.

                            My question remains, Would you prefer to live under the CCP regime in China?

                            Note; I am not a Chinese

                            I don't believe you.

                            • Barbequemilk on 12/04/2020 - 19:19

                              @[Deactivated]: Here Just a quick search for you , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_pandemic_in_A…

                              Australia wasn't original Corona virus outbreak, so it irrelevant with your question.
                              Yes Australia really really do a good job to contained this virus so far. I think you don't know what is "pandemic"

                              It doesn’t matter if a cat is black or white; as long as it catches mice, it’s a good cat.

                              It doesn't matter which country I live on as long as the country can provide me safety, prosperity, etc.

                              • [Deactivated] on 12/04/2020 - 19:30

                                @Barbequemilk: Wikipedia is a very, very unreliable source.

                                You shouldn't rely on it. We're taught that since school, here. It's fine for a quick read, but you should always go back and double-check where the Wikipedia article got its information from (i.e. look at the sources if it has it).

                                Australia wasn't original Corona virus outbreak, so it irrelevant with your question.

                                We were talking about the covid-19 pandemic and you directed the topic elsewhere. So, sorry, I don't get your point. So you're unwilling to answer?

                                Well, it's easy for me. I would prefer to live in Australia where we have democracy, freedom of speech, and self-expression.

                                It's okay to criticise the government and point out if they've done something "wrong". Although what's deemed "wrong" is seen differently to different people. That's the beauty of democracy and self-expression. You can think as you please.

                                I hope you've enjoyed living here so far :)

      • Scamwatcher on 09/04/2020 - 00:16

        This wasn't an act of war, if you believe the conspiracy theories, maybe stop listening to InfoWars.

    • lainey13 on 08/04/2020 - 13:56
      +1

      Do you know how WW2 started? Perhaps look into the treaties signed at the end of WW1 that required Germany to pay, resulting in a society that allowed Hitler to be elected and cause WW2.

      • Emerald Owl on 08/04/2020 - 14:04
        -2

        Yes I do know how WW2 started, namely nationalism and a belief of superiority. Germany went into a depression like the rest of the world did. Hitler blamed the Jews, not the Allies.

  • Cluster on 08/04/2020 - 01:38
    +7

    Your grand children will still be paying this debt.

    It's not an exaggeration. To give you an example of how long such huge debts can hang around, Britain paid back the last World War 2 debt to the USA and Canada in 2006.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6215847.stm

    And this was a concessional loan at only 2% interest, but required 60 years to pay back. Was if a good loan? You bet. It helped win a war that had to be won.

    Is this new Australian government debt necessary? Yes, otherwise we would be looking at mass unemployment along with all the social upheaval that goes with it. Tens of thousands of families would default on their mortgages and the damage would ripple through the economy. Many people wouldn't have money to go back to living like they did before, like going to restaurants, cinemas, taking holidays, etc. Possibly more than a million Australians would remain long term unemployed.

    • oztite on 08/04/2020 - 10:32

      Nahhhh, our grandchildren will pay back the debt, sure, by borrowing more debt, which their grandchildren will pay for, and so on. We are paying of WW2 debt, true, but not really, we are simply borrowing more to pay for it.

  • freestyle18 on 08/04/2020 - 02:40
    -1

    My question is how long before we all feel the weight of the economic effects. It usually takes awhile (several to many months) before we see effects spread further than those initially affected. Are you the avg ozb spending much less on things other than essentails??

    • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 07:27
      +2

      Already feeling it.

      Look at the unemployment rate. Every single person who has decreased employment will quantifiably feel the economic damage.

      If you mean feel the full extent of the damage… Who knows when and how bad.

      • freestyle18 on 09/04/2020 - 04:06

        not according to a lot of those spenders above lol. "business as usual"

  • Bourb on 08/04/2020 - 05:00
    +3

    The bulk of the debt will be in borrowed money (Bonds). Because of the low interest rates the Bonds will allow inflation to eventually reduce the amount the Government actually owes as the years progress. So in the long term the debt isn't as bad as it first looks, inflation and time will make it manageable.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 07:23
      +5

      …and in the end… still paid for by…

      <Drumroll…>

      The tax payer.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 07:22
      +2

      Best comment.

    • lltravel on 08/04/2020 - 11:07
      +2

      LMAO, you dumb anti vaxer. Mate why dont you go to china, take a trip on the ruby princess with fresh air and let us know where you end up.

      • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 12:59
        -2

        If there are multiple passengers coming down with respiratory illnesses on a cruise ship like the Ruby Princess, then why on earth didn't they switch off the artificial ventilation system and evacuate everyone onboard from their cabins and onto the upper deck out in the open to breath in fresh air rather than the contaminated air down below? That's what I really want to know…

        • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 17:13

          That's what I really want to know…

          There are many other things you should also want to know. Many.

  • Gotchas on 08/04/2020 - 07:19
    -4

    No one will paying it off since our jobs will be going offshore, companies offshore and we will be too old to work. The millennials will be too busy on instagram

    • [Deactivated] on 08/04/2020 - 07:34

      Actually, this event would increase the likelihood of jobs coming back.

      Still, overall loss of jobs for the foreseeable future.

    • smartazz104 on 08/04/2020 - 07:49
      +6

      And what would you be, a bitter Gen X'er or a senile baby boomer?

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