I received an infringement penalty notice of two speeding fines that I did not do. The speeding offences took place on 6th and 19th September 2017 in Rangeville, Queensland, Australia. Take notice that I moved to New South Wales on the 15th of August 2017 and have been living here ever since and have not left the state since. A family member sold the car in my name on the 16th of August 2017, a day after I left. This means the new owner or someone they kno.w did the offence, so I nominated the new owner for the penalty and provided proof that I was in NSW, the penalty was cancelled and taken off my name. A couple days ago which is a year after the incident, I received a message that my license will be suspended, so I called. Apparently the fines have been reinstated in my name because the person nominated me back and that I cannot nominate them back (not cool!!). Now if it was like a $100, I would have said screw it and paid but the fines round up to around $500. Should I go to court in Queensland. Can anyone give me advice on what to do, what proof I need to provide, do I need a lawyer, should I talk to the new owner first, etc..
Please I'm desperate and I don't know people who can help me and this $500 is going to be from the saving that I have been putting to visit my brother in the Netherlands that I haven't seen in 5 years.
Help I Recieved Two Infringement Penalty Notice of Speeding Fines That I Did Not Do
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I have the seller's copy filed just missing the licence number. I did not dispute it myself cause everyone told me not worry about it the buyer will take care of it.
Never trust the buyer to take care of it.
What? You only have to notify the RTA that the vehicle had been sold.
AND you can easily do it online to these days….
Found the problem in one. Notice of vehicle transfer/disposal not filed.
As it stands, OP will have few options outside of getting this to court.
Based on what?
A lawyer told me the same thing, I sent a message through Revenue NSWs website and the fine was anulled.@deme: The OP has not put on the notice of vehicle transfer/disposal. This would have (should have) shown the date of transfer/disposal as 16 August. This is prima facie evidence that the vehicle was not in possession of the OP at the time of the offences. The practical flip side to this is that OP is deemed to be the owner at the time of the offences and therefore we have the situation we have here.
It would appear that the purchaser has put through a change of registration at some time after the offences occurred. In the absence of the notice of vehicle transfer/disposal this is prima facie evidence that the purchaser was not the owner of the vehicle at the times of the offences.
What does all of this mean? It means that the evidence currently available to the authorities is that the OP was the owner at the times of the offences and based on the construction of the law they must be able to prove that someone else committed the offences (or have that someone accept liability) in a way that overcomes the prima facie evidence as outlined above.
Based on what has already occurred as outlined by the OP, the relevant authorities have worked through their processes and have reached their conclusion. The OP will now need to demonstrate that they were not the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offences. This will likely lead to needing to challenge it in court, because it would seem the relevant authorities have made their determination (i.e. have/are about to suspend the licence) in line with the relevant processes.
@Seraphin7: What?
OP will have few options outside of getting this to court.
No, QLD State Revenue can anull a fine.
No court needed.
I just sold my trailer, and it says on the paper to de-register yourself, and you also need to put the other persons driver license in the form.
I did it online, 5 minutes after the trailer was sold. Basically the trailer was rolling off my driveway, as it was de-registered.
Stupidity does not save you from being punished.
Just prove you were out of state at the time, and you were not able to have been the driver? Maybe nominating someone else was a mistake as you cannot prove who was driving at the time.
Also if someone else sold the car, that means you had no ownership, so how did the state get your name in the first place ?
Alot of stuff here doesnt make sense.
must have sold the car without copy of receipt ,
and didn't bother to fill/hand in vehicle transfer paper
so the new owner still driving on old rego yet to expire
the rego is no longer in my name I did check but the person did do the offences before transferring the rego to his name
are you still using QLD license ?
if NSW license, you can dispute it with RMS ?
@dcep: no I transferred the license to new but I don't think my QL licence is terminated. when SPER contacted me to tell me that my license will be suspended I asked them if my NSW licence will suspended too they said yes. I was able to ask for 14 days extension to resolve this problem.
Nominating you back…. what crap… he simply denied the offence, so the cops are only assuming you. In court you present your case. You can't even really say it was the other driver (bc it may not have been), you can only simply say the vehicle was not in your possession.
the ownership was under my name, the point is I did not do the offence and I have proof that I was in NSW at the time
In the absence of a nominated driver the owner is presumed guilty. Unfortunately you are also listed as the owner at that time. You are screwed.
Since the ownership was in your name, and you (can't blame family, etc. its your legal responsibility) didn't properly lodge the disposal notice you're screwed. There isn't much anyone can do for you so best pay the fine/s, learn an important lesson and move on with life.
Suggest contacting a current affair.
Shame on your family for not ensuring the vehicle was correctly transferred at time of sale. Perhaps force the family member to pay the fine because of their incompetence.
If you get a lawyer, get a QC.Get a QC for a $500.00 fine. Considering they charge between $2-6K a day……..
I think you missed the point
just on the side: I know a few QC's personally. None of them is actually able to operate a vehicle. Still they think they are par of her majesty. Let the system be the system.
Must be a full moon tonight.
No… Just the start of holiday season hell where things go bananas for 2-3 weeks
A family member sold the car on the 16th of August 2017, a day after I left.
Do you have an NOD and did you lodge it in accordance with the your state rules?
I did not fill a disposal application because everyone told me that the buyer will take care of it, I was dumb and I learned from my mistake.
Ok. Sorry to say but you haven’t legally transferred the registered operator to the new owners.
okay true I only have a seller's copy of the application that I did not act on, if I go to court will that affect the outcome
@JiJi user: It might help, but unlikely. The new owner will say they transferred it straight away even though you know it was months later.
In the absence of a nominated driver, the owner will be presumed responsible - ie you. You will have a hard time proving the new owner did it.
You failed to follow the rules and now your stuck with a fine. Suck it up and pay or lose your licence.
@Euphemistic: You might have a hard time proving the owner did it, but its much easier proving that the new owner is responsible for it.
@whooah1979: Crime? Trusting the buyer to complete the transfer of ownership or listening to others who said trust he buyer to do it. Either one. Penalty: loss of licence, $500 in fines.
"Apparently the fines have been reinstated in my name because the person nominated me back and that I cannot nominate them back ((profanity)!!)"
That sucks…Tagged…No backsiessorry
I'd get a lawyer (local to the court you appear) and book in an appearance.
do I need a lawyer, I'm not sure what are the costs.
And I am in NSW do I have to go to QLlegal aid is free
cool thank you
@JiJi user: I don't think legal aid will help you. They have told me they only help with more serious criminal matters.
Given you are going to have to explain why you stuffed up and why you should get off, I'd leave it to the pro's. Probably looking at $800.
If that's too much just pay the fine and cop the infringement.
Can you start referring to Queensland as QLD not QL. I don’t know why it bugs me so much.
Did the new owner say that it was your fault, or simply deny that it was their own? And are there any photos of the driver? Sometimes you can see this online.
Because if they nominated you, that seems like they broke the law? Knowingly making a false nomination can be a serious offence. As in, $10k and 6 months serious. Or if it's treated as a Statutory Declaration, 4 years. Those are SA, but probably similar wherever.
So how about contact new owner, ask them to take responsibility for it. And make it clear that they are giving you no choice but to implicate them in something potentially far more serious if they don't.
the offence photos were only show the back of the car. I thought about that but someone told me that I nominated him falsely also cause what makes me sure it was the buyer and not someone else. but one note is that Queensland police advised me to do that when I explained my situation.
So you nominated the buyer legitimately. They buyer said it wasn’t me, quite possibly legitimately. It may have been their partner or someone else who was lent the car. The nomination was returned to the owner (you, because you didn’t transfer the rego). It was then up to you to nominate the correct driver but you can’t so it’s on you.
You are telling the truth when it wasn't you driving. You also seem to have a legal and valid trail of custodian of the vehicle:
You -> your family -> the new buyer -> (anyone they gave the car to).Even if the notice of disposal isn't complete, that is a record of ownership and registration - it doesn't invalidate that someone else was driving at the time of the offence.
If you hand your keys to fred, and then receive a speeding fine, you're correct to nominate fred as the driver. If fred gave the keys to someone else, then that's up to fred to nominate. The illegal / risky thing here is the new owner nominated it back to you, which you know is false (and apparently can prove on the day of the offence).
I'd go to court for sure. And hope that the court slams the new buyer with various offences.
So there is possibly light at the end of the tunnel!
Too late now…. you will have to try and convince the Magistrate.
You said it yourself… You sold the vehicle, so there is one record, and a major one at that. You did fill out the back of the registration transfer notice, didn't you????
Then you say you were living in NSW. There must be a record, and if not, you obtain Stat Decs from witnesses attesting to your presence. People did see you in NSW, didn't they?????
The Cops have to now prove it was you behind the wheel, and why would you be when you sold the vehicle and were living in NSW.The catch is, technically OP did own the vehicle as the transfer was not completed.
I don’t know how the system works if you don’t nominate a driver. Is the fine increased and passed to the owner? That’s how it works for corporate rego. Maybe it is just assumed to be the owner because they had ‘care and control’. Maybe they don’t increase the fine.
There must be a system to prevent people just saying I didn’t know who was driving and then getting away with it. Otherwise every fine you got you could just nominate a random, they deny and then the fine goes away.
The catch is, technically OP did own the vehicle as the transfer was not completed.
Ownership and the registered operator may technically be different entities.
True. The OP is the registered operator, not the owner.
@whooah1979: But only after slapping themself silly for getting into the situation in the first place.
I would fill out a stat dec stating you sold the car on this date and you have the sellers copy of the transfer to show this to be the case. In QLD its up to the buyer to lodge the paperwork and the sellers copy is just for situations like this. You may have to take it to court though. The missing licence number may prove problematic as false details may have been used. Have you checked to see who it is registered to now? is it the same person on your paperwork?
I sold a camper trailer to someone interstate and 6 months or so later got two fines in the mail for speeding fines (they only got the number plate of the camper not the car). I just filled out a stat dec and included the paperwork and it was all good. I am not sure what happens when the other party refuses responsibility but you have proof you sold it so you should be right.
Makes it easier in NSW when you can fill in he notice of disposal form online. The second the buyer drives away, you are no longer the registered owner. No lost forms, no having to remember to post it or go to the registration centre, it’s just done
Yep, same in S.A. When I bought my bike recently, I sat at the sellers table, they did their disposal online, I transferred rego into my name and activated insurance quote, and was on my way.
Great system.
You can do this in Qld..
OP needs to take the matter to court and explain the circumstances to a judge.
Any reasonable judge will shake thier head and just waiver the fine.
Especially if OP has travelled from NSW to QLD to attend!Its a no brainer.
Though rather inconvenient.As others have said here OP or thier reresentative should have gone online and lodged the NOTICE OF DISPOSAL.
And always get a copy of the buyers drivers license.
Too easy with mobile phones these days which date stamp every photo.Lesson learnt the hard way unfortunately for OP.
I doubt any Joe blo would gladly let you take a photo of their licence. Not even in a car accident most cases.
I sure as hell would not. That's most your details on a card.That's what an official paperwork is for which OP didn't dooo
Been through something similar. The person who nominated the expiation notice back to you is actually at fault. They can't palm it off back to you using the 'it's still registered in his name' ploy. Its all about who is the driver. You just sign a stat dec saying you have nothing to do with the vehicle anymore. The person on the other end will likely be charged. They'll be up for about $2000 in fines.
I called QL police they said the registration was transferred on 22/09/2017. I sold the car on 16/08/2017 the buyer probably changed the date. will a stat declaration make any difference today
also I asked of conformation if they nominated me back, and QL police said the there was investigation and I was the owner so apparently my nomination was invalid. Right now I am applying for canceling infringement law so the fine would go back to the original cost.
you will need 2 stat decs.
1 from you saying when you left the state.
1 from your relative when they collected the money and handed over the keys to the new buyer (good to have emails, or text messages - as attached).just make sure everything is in date order and logical.
Go to court.
Add more linebrakes than what you used for your question.
How did this person pay for the car?If the money was deposited the day you sold it would also prove the date of transfer of ownership.
You have the sellers copy of transfer, and that would be dated and signed by the new owner, so I would take it to court and explain everything, and include the proof you weren't in the State at the time. This happens more than you know, because the onus is on the buyer to lodge paperwork and pay stamp duty.
Well since you didn't complete the paperwork correctly you're out of luck. Pay up and move on.
Maybe send the person you sold the car to a glitter bomb or bag of dicks.
that would be assault, a proven crime. Why turn an alleged offence into a disaster?
30 years ago in the UK, they realised that having buyers of 2nd hand cars fill in and submit the transfer docs left the seller open to receiving their fines if they didn't submit them, so they changed the rules so the seller submits them.
Seems we've not caught up yet.
Go to court, submit your evidence then claim for your wasted time
You have evidence you sold the car and weren't in the state, police have no evidence that you were driving it
Seems we've not caught up yet.
Umm. The buyer has had to submit a notice of disposal in NSW for at least 25 years. Nowadays you can do it online. The OP was the one at fault.
Uhh… I don't think you read their post properly.
They are saying in the UK, sellers do it. In NSW/Aus/QLD, buyers do it
You say, buyers do it.
So… you are agreeing?
Oops. Meant seller needs to submit notice of disposal, and has done for a long time. Buyer also needs to transfer the rego.
The new car owner knows it wasn't you and yet, they nominated you? You have a paper trail to prove that it couldn't have been you. Take it to court.
Not sure the buyer nominated the OP, probably just denied they were the driver and the fine came back to the registered operator.
Can you imagine how many fines would get off if you could nominate someone else, the deny and the fine didn’t just revert to the registered operator? Or what would happen if you could just nominate another driver and they couldnt get out of it?
If OP pays the fine, wouldn't it mean that he accepts that he has falsely nominated another person, which is an offence? It is also an offence to knowingly accept responsibility for driving offences he did not commit.
So how would you recommend that OP proceeds ?
I’m saying I don’t know how the law works in his situation. If you don’t know who was driving, but you nominate someone who denies it what happens? Does the court say well it couldn’t be either of you so this fine disappears. If that was the case, most people would be wasting court time getting out of fines by not being honest about who was driving. In this case the OP does not know who was driving but they nominated someone else who can plausibly deny and does not need to nominate another driver.
i believe you can just write a statutory declaration and get it signed that you were not the driver,
https://www.revenue.nsw.gov.au/help-centre/resources-library…
OP has already done that, the other person denied it was them. The fine came back to the registered operator - the OP
did the other person also sign a stat declaration ? if not then it means nothing…
When you receive the fine nomination it probably tells you what to do if you didn’t do it. The buyer probably did whatever was outlined on the form which is enough to get the registration authority to apply the fine back to the registered operator. Another ‘stat dec’ by the OP won’t change anything as the buyer will just deny it again.
Eh, one of those "relative sold my car while I was looking the other way" stories…
It's a $500 lesson in due diligence, the way I see it.
Stop being so bloody ignorant
OP do three things:
Collect evidence that you sold the vehicle.
Contact legal aid in your state.
Unless legal aid advises you not to,
Call the QLD fines folk and explain what happenedAlso:
Proof you weren't in QLD at the time of the offense including a stat dec stating the same.You sound fairly excitable and emotional. Don't be like that on the phone. Don't lose your temper or use swear words.
They also don't want to know about your brother, where he lives or how long you have been apart or whether you can afford the fine.
Expect this to cost you money but on the bright side, look how much you are learning.
Ignore Brad's comments.
Here is why:
You don't need a statutory declaration and one isn't proof.
Far better advice is just be honest and understand the person on the other side is human too.
Ability to pay is taken into consideration.
It shouldn't cost the OP any money, they didn't do the offence.Brad:
Don't kick a person while they are down by patronising them and saying "look on the bright side, look at how much you are learning".Do you think legal advice will not cost money? Or travelling to QLD to attend court? Or paying a legal person to attend on your behalf?
Kicking while down? That's not a kick.
@brad1-8tsi: No, legal aid will probably give a referral for free legal advice.
As for court why do think the only option is court?
QLD Office of State Revenue can anull the fines and suspension, that's an email/web form or phone call.
was it cash payment or Bank cheque /transfer (date of cheque deposited ) ? -
if family member transfer money to your bank account you can use bank statement as supporting evidence
Brother in the Netherlands? Well the yellow plates might deceive you saying first state. Queensland is actually the first state to have a criminal code, hence they named Griffith Uni after him. States are older than the nation. Endangering lives by being reckless like driving like a maniac is a crime. Now you do a crime in QLD they must extradite you there to face court. Usually this is done if somebody is found dead. Just an alleged driving offence is a fine matter, either you proclaim guilt on top of innocence or pay for negligence. I personally have paid a $280 speeding ticked for a false Allegation. Lawyers told me QLD is broke and we have large rectal openings so too bad so I paid because other times I had been faster then some think was safe and I have saved time. Paid 3 loading zone fines for actually loading all on technical grounds. Now our city is just about deserted because of such stupidity. Can QLD suspend your NSW license? This depends on what lawyer you talk to. Certainly if you step foot into QLD they can summons you straight away to a court and the judge can use his or her discretion to give you a road safety lesson.
Enough is enough: Just walked out of facebook jail a while ago and now out of Ozbargain Jail. Thanks boys I doctor that was born overseas once told me he had to leave this country as he was considered a troll by publishing too much!Wat? Did you copy and paste this, if not I'm worried.
You're still the 'owner' so now report your stolen car. :)
No
depends on who was responsible for not getting the proper details at time of sale
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Don't you have signed and dated vehicle transfer papers?