Intersection Question. What Order Do They Go in?

pegaxs on 12/12/2019 - 17:51
Last edited 14/12/2019 - 10:35

Been a bit quiet here lately, thought I would share an observation I made a while ago on my travels. And before you get excited, no, no one was hit, no one got a fine, it was just a stupid intersection.

I came across this intersection in an out of the way place while I was making deliveries. There was a cross roads intersection with only paint markings on the ground and maybe one or two of the roads had a sign, but I don't remember seeing them. I took notice of the road and how it was laid out because of how stupid it was and I thought, "Hey, this might cause some bung frothing on the forum…"

This got me to thinking about what would happen if 4 vehicles arrived at the same time and some were making turns and some were going straight. Who would get to go first and what order would the rest of them follow? Only thing to keep in mind is that this was in NSW, so some of your state laws may or may not apply.

Photo-realistic drawing of intersection and vehicles arriving at the same time…

Have at it.

Edit: I have not found the intersection, but I have found one almost the same (apart from a change from giveway to stop on one road). Just for those that think these types of intersections are stupid/dont exist. There are several around here like this…

Google Map link

Edit 2: And another stupid intersection as described in this post, this one is exactly as the post describes. (Still not the one I was at, but eerily similar.)

Google Map Link 2

Poll Options

  • 6
    A,B,C then D
  • 1
    A,B,D then C
  • 0
    A,C,B then D
  • 8
    A,C,D then B
  • 156
    A,D,B then C
  • 3
    A,D,C then B
Automotive

Comments

  • spackbace on 12/12/2019 - 17:56
    +17

    Like this

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 12/12/2019 - 20:07
      +1

      I want to see the dash cam footage from this.

      • SnowDragon on 12/12/2019 - 20:53
        +4

        here you go

        fyi - its the record for the most destroyed police cars in a film, with Blues Brothers 2000 beating the record.

        • DashCam AKA Rolts on 12/12/2019 - 21:48
          +1

          Excellent, have an upvote.
          This now sets the Ozbargain standard for cam footage! This should now be mandated minimum for all "Who's at fault in this accident?" posts.

        • Tyrotek on 13/12/2019 - 08:07

          2000 is more than I expected!

        • b0rnwithabeard on 13/12/2019 - 10:48

          it was also (not surprisingly) the most expensive movie car-chase sequence (not sure what overtook it)

    • idonotknowwhy on 14/12/2019 - 06:47
      +1

      You got me, I just laughed loudly and woke my partner…

  • Bargain80 on 12/12/2019 - 17:57
    -1

    I believe A will be the first because it doesn't have any give way or stop line. Followed by B then C and then D.

    • SnowDragon on 12/12/2019 - 18:03
      +10

      A is always first. I think the other 3 could be ambiguous.

      If, as OP said, they all arrived at the same time. A would go, then the other 3 would sit and wait for someone to make a move. I reckon D should go last as they're behind a stop/giveway sign.

      If I were B, I would let D go first as I am turning in front of them and they are currently unimpeded.

      So A, D, B, C IMO.

      • geek001 on 12/12/2019 - 18:07
        +3

        I concur. A is first, then D because D is going straight, then B, then C because C has a solid line.

        • seefu on 12/12/2019 - 18:12
          +1

          Yep, I agree with SnowDragon and geek001 for the reasons that geek pointed out. C is definitely last because solid line. A has no line, D is going straight. There's a good chance that D and B will go through at the same time so B will have to stop but in a perfect world, A will be blocking B long enough to give D time to pull into the intersection slowly which will alert B that he has to wait for D anyway

          • pegaxs on 12/12/2019 - 19:13

            @seefu: Ahhh… but if they all arrive at the same time, does it not mean that B, C and D all have to stop? And does it say in the legislation that the stop sign has to give way to all others? Or that it merely has to stop before continuing?

            Would it be possible that D has to wait for C since they are both stopped?

            A definitely gets to go first, they have no stop/give way line. But in the action of entering the intersection B, C and D would all have to stop and wait for A. Would it not then just be that because B is turning, they have to give way to D, but because both C and D are stopped, D would have to give way to C?

            Ergo, A, C, D then B??

            (NB: for all the neggers, I don't know, I'm just looking at an alternative answer.)

        • c64 on 12/12/2019 - 20:35
          +5

          then C because C has a solid line.

          a solid stop line means is that you have to come to a complete stop. after that you should give way appropriately. so if B, C, D are all stationary then the stop line is not any different from a give way line

          • Bargain80 on 13/12/2019 - 14:42
            +4

            @c64: This.

            At least in QLD, dotted line (give way) and continuous line (stop) have equal power regarding give way rule.
            In situation where there is one each then it goes back to the basic rule which is giving way to your right.

      • p1 ama on 12/12/2019 - 20:21

        I agree, A is clearly first, C is clearly last. Between D and B, I would say that since D is going straight and B is turning right into D's path, it would go D then B.

        • pegaxs on 13/12/2019 - 08:30
          +2

          But why is C “clearly last”? I think this is the part people are getting wrong. People are saying C goes last, but not providing a reason why other than “stop line” and there is nothing in the legislation that says if you are behind a stop line, you automatically go last.

          • HighAndDry on 13/12/2019 - 09:02

            @pegaxs: Because after A goes first, D has the first clear way as A is still passing in front of and impeding B and C.

        • c64 on 13/12/2019 - 09:37

          i don't think that is correct. i don't think it is straight forward. hopefully common sense would prevail and one driver would let another go first.

          C must come to a stop

          assuming all are stationary, it should be a case of giving way to traffic on the right: D must give way to C, C must give way to B and B must give away to D. i'm guessing A should give way to C as it is turning right across the path of C

          if a crash occurred between D & C occurred, i'm guessing D would be at fault
          if a crash occurred between C & B occurred, C would be at fault
          and for a crash between D & B then B would be at fault
          i'm also guessing a crash between A & C would result in A being at fault, assuming C had stopped
          for a multi-car accident it can be settled in court :)

  • D C on 12/12/2019 - 17:57
    +2

    If they're all old codgers, then "give way to right" would apply. Simple after that.

  • HighAndDry on 12/12/2019 - 18:19
    +2

    A, D, B, C.

    Though

    Been a bit quiet here lately, thought I would share an observation I made a while ago on my travels

    You. You know exactly what you're doing here lol.

  • Skramit on 12/12/2019 - 18:20

    ADBC

  • MS Paint on 12/12/2019 - 18:22
    +7

    Photo-realistic drawing of intersection and vehicles

    Best I have seen. I have pm'd you your ms paint license.

  • Euphemistic on 12/12/2019 - 19:04

    Needs a poll.

    (ADBC for me)

    • pegaxs on 12/12/2019 - 19:14
      +1

      I was going to put up a poll. I think most people would agree that A gets to go first, so I might just add that poll…

  • [Deactivated] on 12/12/2019 - 19:16

    Well, this can all be calculated.

    • pegaxs on 12/12/2019 - 19:22
      +1

      woo hoo! 14. Get Woke!

      • [Deactivated] on 12/12/2019 - 19:23

        You just slid everything to the right except two bars!

        (First thing I did. Lol)

        (Woops that wasn't it)

  • sa-ozzie on 12/12/2019 - 19:21

    A first…b is turning..not going straight ?

    • pegaxs on 12/12/2019 - 19:25
      +2

      B has indicator on. Two assumptions can be made here;

      1: they are not driving a BMW
      2: they may turn in the direction indicated by the yellow arrow.

  • sa-ozzie on 12/12/2019 - 19:26

    A D B C

  • fantombloo on 12/12/2019 - 20:20

    Missing poll option ACAB?

    • Euphemistic on 12/12/2019 - 21:02
      +5

      No one gets a cab any more. It’s all Uber.

  • [Deactivated] on 12/12/2019 - 21:33
    +3

    I originally thought the A - D - B - C that is currently winning the poll, then I recalled reading (https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/on-th…) a short while ago.

    Since this specifies that (in QLD at least) "a stop sign is not more powerful than a give way sign" it made me reconsider.

    Therefore A goes first as it doesn't have any traffic control markings, then B goes as they are to the right of C and C is continuing straight (as per the normal give way to the right rules), and then C goes as they are to the right of D and D is continuing straight therefore has to wait for C and finally D gets to go.

    What would actually happen - A would go, then two of the other three would have an epic crash and the third would upload it onto dash cam owners…

    • pegaxs on 12/12/2019 - 22:57
      +2

      Yeah, I think some people are thinking that a give way sign/line has more priority than a stop sign. That, somehow, the stop sign/line goes to the end of the list. But in this case, B,C and D would all have to stop and wait for A. Once all cars are stopped, D doesn’t just get to go, because C is behind a stop line.

      I seriously think the most picked poll answer is actually incorrect and that it isn’t as clear cut as people think…

      And for the record, B is turning, indicator is on. B would have to wait on D, but D would have to wait on C as C is to the right of D…

      • [Deactivated] on 12/12/2019 - 23:40

        Yeah it's definitely a confusing one, because in a normal intersection B does have to wait on D as they are turning across in front, but D is stuck waiting on C, who then has to give way to B who is to their right.

        The difficult part is if an accident occurs between B and D because they both believe they have right of way. B has turned into the path of D who is continuing straight, but D technically shouldn't have entered the intersection before C who is to their right and who has given way to B…

  • Stevek1960 on 13/12/2019 - 08:40
    -4

    C,D,A,B
    Always give way to the right and vehicles proceeding straight through have priority over a turning vehicle

    • pegaxs on 13/12/2019 - 09:57
      +4

      Yeah…. The RMS just called. They said they need your license back, and they are sorry for giving you one in the first place…

      • Stevek1960 on 14/12/2019 - 10:19

        Sorry but in Qld regardless of line marking the rules are as someone else has stated give way to the right.
        The question was if they all arrived at the same time…….
        This was a question actually posed with law enforcement during an interview a few weeks ago and he stated that in this instance all line markings are negated and it returns to a give way to the right scenario

        • pegaxs on 14/12/2019 - 10:42

          While I agree with a portion of this statement, your original statement is incorrect.

          A has no signage or road markings, this means that A can continue through the intersection without having to give way (other than what is required by law to avoid a collision). Both C and D cannot go before A, because C must stop and D must give way.

          I agree with all the lines markings become void once B, C and D stop to wait for A, but A does not have signs or road markings to be negated.

          And if a law enforcement officer said the answer was C,D,A,B, then they are wrong and lord have mercy on any road users that idiot pulls over…

          • Stevek1960 on 14/12/2019 - 10:56
            -1

            @pegaxs: The first person or last on the right who has right of way is depending how you look at is C, two cars going straight and D has to give way to the right, then D goes etc etc

            And it all comes down to how the main question was asked, at the same time makes all the difference

            • pegaxs on 14/12/2019 - 11:04

              @Stevek1960: In this situation, A always goes first. There are no traffic control signs or lines for the driver of A. If they all arrive at the same time, A absolutely gets to go first. Hell, A doesn't even have to slow down.

              Ergo, your original statement that C and D can go before A is incorrect.

              • Stevek1960 on 14/12/2019 - 11:52
                -3

                @pegaxs: A is turning in front if on coming traffic which in itself is breaking the law and once again you don't understand the question.

                If they all arrived at the same time and in that case all line markings are negated and it is back to a give way to the right rule

                • pegaxs on 14/12/2019 - 13:44

                  @Stevek1960: There are no line markings for A. There are no signs for A. How can something that is not there be negated?

                  Yes, A is turning, but C has a traffic control line, as does D. C has to stop. A has no such control line.

                  Try that on your insurance company, epic FAIL

                  Only B, C or D would have a problem explaining why they hit A, as they are the only ones with traffic controls.

                  Please tell me you are not becoming a police officer or worse still, actually have a license.

                  • Stevek1960 on 15/12/2019 - 07:53
                    -2

                    @pegaxs: (Personal attack removed), you answered the question, A has no line but as all 4 reached the intersection at the same time the other 3 have no lines either so it reverts to give way to the right, first off the mark C then D then A then B

                    • pegaxs on 15/12/2019 - 08:10

                      @Stevek1960:

                      Your You’re

                      FTFY…

                      the other 3 have no lines either

                      Then we are looking at completely different diagrams.

                      • Stevek1960 on 15/12/2019 - 08:21
                        -2

                        @pegaxs: As has been stated before but your brain can't grasp, line markings are negated if all arrive at the same time and it returns to give way to the right.

                        From NSW tpt site

                        Give way rules where there are no signs

                        Generally if you’re turning across another vehicle’s path, you must give way.

                        When turning at an intersection, you must give way to:

                        Oncoming vehicles going straight ahead.
                        Oncoming vehicles turning left.
                        Any vehicle on your right.

                        • pegaxs on 15/12/2019 - 08:49

                          @Stevek1960:

                          line markings are negated if all arrive at the same time

                          Source. Please point me to the legislation that says this. (and A has no markings to be negated anyway…)

                          Give way rules where there are no signs

                          A does not have give way signs, all others do. So Road Rule 72 does not apply to this intersection (as this intersection does have markings/signs).

                          Cars B and D have to follow Road Rule 69 regarding give way signs/lines. Please refer to Example 4 in this rule.

                          Car C has to follow Road Rule 67 regarding stop signs/lines. And go ahead and look at "Example 4" again on this rule. A is turning and B (who is behind the stop line) has to give way to A. Ergo, you're wrong.

    • Stevek1960 on 14/12/2019 - 11:19
      -1

      Need sleep stand original post

  • b0rnwithabeard on 13/12/2019 - 10:53

    ADBC: but also knowing a few other road conditions would help in a real world situation here - I'm assuming C has a stop sign, and B & D have Give Way signs, which could matter depending on what state you're in.

    However the biggest take-away for me is that wherever this intersection is, it's bloody stupid and your town planners should be embarrassed. You'd solve so much confusion if you just turned this into a roundabout.

  • OzHunterNSW on 13/12/2019 - 11:06

    The one with initiative would go first and set the sequence that follows.

  • jonkvh on 13/12/2019 - 11:46

    ABCD. The road rule 'give way to your right' gives the order of who crosses the intersection first.

    • b0rnwithabeard on 13/12/2019 - 13:02

      This got me to thinking about what would happen if 4 vehicles arrived at the same time

  • TEER3X on 13/12/2019 - 11:52
    +5

    The P-plater goes first, followed by the person that has the right of way, then the 3rd car goes, and the L-plater just sits there.

  • windale on 13/12/2019 - 12:33

    When I was in PA in the USA there was rule for 4 way stop signed intersections where it was whoever got there first had right of way. There was one of these intersections near my hotel and it sometimes had 2 or 3 cars at each stop sign, you had to try and remember what order people arrived at the signs in to know when it was your turn :0 There were a few other rules associated with it too. very confusing.

    A FOUR-WAY STOP sign means there are four stop signs at this intersection. Traffic from all four
    directions must stop. The first vehicle to reach the intersection should move forward first. If two
    vehicles reach the intersection at the same time, the driver on the left yields to the driver on the
    right. If facing one another both can proceed with caution, watching for possible turns.

    • TEER3X on 13/12/2019 - 20:27

      Four way stop signs are all over the US. Not really confusing once you get used to them, roundabouts or "turning circles" are way better suited but don't seem to be as popular over there.

      I think the number cause of accidents in the US is running Stop signs.

      The trouble is not all intersections are 4-way stops (obviously) and often people at stop signs think that they are at a 4-way stop and don't yield to crossing traffic that don't have a stop sign!

      • bai tu on 14/12/2019 - 04:09

        Saw plenty of four-way stop signs in Canada too, while I was there. Mostly in quiet suburban neighbourhoods, where this type of intersection would work fine due to the low contention.

  • Euphemistic on 13/12/2019 - 21:27

    While this is all fun, I think in practice the chance of the ‘other three’ cars arriving at he same time is pretty remote. A will go first as there is no give way or stop markings. The other cars would typically give way in a first come first served basis as I see happen on 4 way stop signs from time to time, with vehicles turning right typically giving way vehicles going straight if they need to turn across their path.

  • kaleidoscope on 13/12/2019 - 23:41

    A & D are easy.
    How would B knows that C is a stop line and not a give way line? Also how would C know if B has give way and not stop line… Because precedence changes based on that

    • Euphemistic on 14/12/2019 - 05:50

      Precedence does not change for s stop vs give way sign.

      A give way line is a dashed line. Stop is solid.

      • Stevek1960 on 14/12/2019 - 11:23
        -1

        If they all arrived at the same time stop and give way markings are negated

  • bai tu on 14/12/2019 - 04:27

    A would proceed into the intersection first since they don't have to stop, but nearing the end of their turn they would actually be blocking both B and C.
    So D would go next once A is clear of their lane.
    B & C would then probably enter the intersection at roughly the same time, with B then giving way to C.
    If this is Sydney, then B will follow as closely behind C as humanly possible.
    Order: ADCB

  • harrywwc on 14/12/2019 - 07:51
    +3

    it's A, then B then C then D.

    A first because they have no restrictions (no "Give Way", no "Stop"), even though they are turning in front of oncoming traffic (C)

    According to the road rules, once the other vehicles are stopped, there is no "precedence" of "Give Way" over "Stop", and so the old rule of "Give Way to the Right" then applies.

    So, C is to the Right of D, so D gives way. However, B is to the right of C, and thus C gives way to B.

    Even though B is turning across the oncoming traffic of D, they still have precedence because of D giving way to C.

    So B proceeds, freeing up C to proceed, and then finally D.

    In ALL instances, the onus is on the drivers to avoid a collision - "Proceed through the intersection with caution" I believe is the phrase in the handbook.

    So, if someone (mistakenly) jumps the gun, it is still up to the other(s) to avoid the collision.

    Of course, dash-cam footage may help sort out the mess after the Police arrive after a bingle :)

  • Iangh on 14/12/2019 - 10:47

    If you're going straight you have right of way, choice between C and D. But D has to give way to traffic from the right, so C has precedence. C moves, then D. Then B with A last.

    • pegaxs on 14/12/2019 - 10:54
      +2

      Even though A has no signs and no lines on the road, they still have to go last? Glad you're not my Uber driver… or my traffic lawyer

      you have right of way

      And before @Euphemistic gets here… No one under Australian Road Rules has "right of way". Other drivers have the "obligation to give way" though…

      • Stevek1960 on 14/12/2019 - 11:16

        Try that on your insurance company, epic FAIL

      • Iangh on 14/12/2019 - 12:38
        +1

        If I were 'A' I would play it as I said it and very slowly. I wouldn't be brave enough to assume the others are going "to oblige me and give way". For goodness sake, to know how to navigate the road you have to look at the other roads to see what lines are in front of the other cars at the junction! I don't understand why there isn't a roundabout there?

        EDIT: This is my favourite intersection that frightened me first time I used it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OGvj7GZSIo.

        • pegaxs on 14/12/2019 - 13:57
          +1

          Oh, 100%, I always approach these intersections as if everyone is going to ignore their signs and just plough on through.

          These intersections I have found are always predominantly in small country towns. I guess they work ok because if the amount of drivers is very low and and unlikely that my posted scenario would actually eventuate.

          And yes, this would absolutely be a good case for installing a roundabout. But not like that one from your link. Good lord.

          • b0rnwithabeard on 16/12/2019 - 09:07
            +1

            @pegaxs: i remember that being the one bit of advice that i remembered when i was first learning to drive: My old man would always tell me "drive like everyone else on the road has no f***ing idea what they're doing. Because they probably don't."

            • bai tu on 17/12/2019 - 02:57

              @b0rnwithabeard: Defensive driving is pretty much a necessity, on public roads. Never assume.

  • Euphemistic on 17/12/2019 - 06:47

    Based on the google images it looks as though the intersection is designed to give priority to A, then allow B,D to go straight through or turn into A if A is clear. occasionally when a car enters from C they need to stop first, which probably ends up being a case of waiting for A,B,D to go first.

    Based on the location it doesn’t look massively busy and probably works itself out each time based on some eye contact between drivers, perhaps a wave of ‘you go first’ etc. I’d imagine C would normally be last to go by natural selection despite the give way and stop having equal weight under the law.

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