Dad's Selling a Car Need Some Advice

paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 01:56
Last edited 20/10/2019 - 04:00

Back story

My dad is selling his used range rover

What's odd about the transaction is the following

  1. the buyer is currently overseas and moving back from the middle east to live in Aus permanently (is a pilot)

  2. His Brother in law came for the car inspection (which i told my dad to do at a random place not at their house)

  3. the buyer then after being satisfied with the BIL assessment of the car, wired 1k as a deposit.

  4. Agreed to sell the car on the 16th, but this was delayed by a week supposedly due to problems with them departing the middle east,

now the kicker

  1. The buyer has just trasnferred 16.5k, which seems really bizzare to me

I've told my dad not to accept any further funds before a formal contract can be drawn up (listing both parties, car details etc). I'll go help him close the sale in a weeks time, but i jsut wanted to know whether i should have an level of elevated suspision, or whether this is an acceptable procedure (the car sale price is 72k)

Also how should the rest of the funds be accepted, if i tell my dad to put an embargo on the pilots funds?

EDIT: Just to clarify, i've messaged the buyer and he is happy to do the remainder as a cashier's cheque / cash deposit into dad's account - i think some people may have missed that he is returning to Aus next week. Right now, i'm leaning on that he is a genuine buyer, but will err on the side of caution.

Financial

Comments

  • Richardc on 17/10/2019 - 02:56
    +13

    cash only and meet up at the bank

  • thatonethere on 17/10/2019 - 05:54
    +55

    Could be a scam. Ie they will say oops please send bavk $15k which your dad does then the original transfer is reversed as it was a bad cheque or fraudulent transaction. Your dad is then out of pocket by $15k

    List of common car sales scams

    https://help.carsales.com.au/hc/en-gb/sections/200472599-Sca…

    • Bourb on 17/10/2019 - 06:00
      +22

      Good point.
      The whole "buyer based overseas and moving back to Australia", plus the extra deposit does have a scammy odour about it.
      OP, I would definitely be on my guard about this Sale, especially if the Buyer starts asking for his excess deposit to be returned.

      • Game R on 17/10/2019 - 09:32
        +6

        Yes, this tactic is very widespread in other countries like Malaysia, used to scam sellers of everything from of phones to cars.
        "Buyer is overseas (or not able to see in person)" is one of the largest red flags you can ever see in negotiating a deal.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 11:58
      +7

      I told my dad not to refund any funds and to not communicate until the buyer gets back to Aus

      I’m just worried as my dad is quite naive and trusting when it comes to these things, he already agreed to a significant reduction in the car price as well :/

      • bmerigan on 17/10/2019 - 21:52
        -5

        I think "don't communicate" is a bit harsh since he has $15,000 of THEIR money.

        They may just be managing money transfers in the best way to avoid taxes, etc.

        Of course yes it could be a scam. Definitely wouldn't be transferring any money TO them.

      • macdaddyjordan on 18/10/2019 - 12:01
        +2

        take that money out as cash and hold onto it

  • Bourb on 17/10/2019 - 05:55
    +1

    Cash would be preferable, but cash >$50k is going to attract some attention (money laundering suspicion, etc).

    You could go to a Bank and he could purchase a 'Bank Cheque', just as good as cash and you know it is genuine.

    • Cheeper on 17/10/2019 - 07:01
      -8

      Bank cheques can be counterfeit. Google is your friend….

      • Bourb on 17/10/2019 - 07:13
        +5

        Which is why I said go to the Bank and purchase it.

      • EightImmortals on 17/10/2019 - 07:15
        +2

        So what safe way is there to sell a car if we can't trust bank cheques or direct deposits and soon the government is making that amount of cash ILLEGAL and you will go to jail for 2 years?

        • Antikythera on 17/10/2019 - 22:10
          +6

          you and the buyer go to the bank. buyer buys a bank cheque from the teller.
          passes the bank cheque to you. you deposit the bank cheque into your account.

          you are only dealing with the bank.

        • Eeples on 20/10/2019 - 21:31

          This is FAKE news.

          Educate yourself and stop spreading mis-information.

          If you are referring to this…..

          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/377736

          If you click on the source The Guardian…. you will see….

          “Transactions with financial institutions or consumer to consumer non-business transactions will not be affected.”

          So, this transaction would not be affected.

      • HighAndDry on 17/10/2019 - 11:14
        +5

        Bank cheques are commonly used to settle commercial transactions in the millions. They're arguably safer than cash, once you take into the logistical issues of carrying and counting large amounts of money into consideration.

      • apple2016 on 17/10/2019 - 19:11
        +2

        Cash can be counterfeit as wel!….

      • Harold Halfprice on 19/10/2019 - 17:39

        Cash can be counterfeit too.

        Bank cheques are arguably the safest way to go about it. I request a bank cheque for all the vehicles I've sold - it's much more preferable than a literal pile of cash.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 11:59

      That was my original plan to get a cashiers cheque and then deposit and get confirmation it clears

  • [Deactivated] on 17/10/2019 - 06:51
    +29

    Scam for sure

  • Cheeper on 17/10/2019 - 07:08
    +5

    Your dad has been hooked into a scam by the sound of it.
    Has contact been made from the "pilot" by email? What is the background data like on that email?

    Regardless I would treat this as a definite scam and find some way of moving that money to some neutral holding point.
    The bank may know some way of doing this.
    It would be good to have some positive ID on the BIL.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:00

      It was through the Carsales messaging system so there is a track of all messages, good idea on the ID will request it from the buyer now

      What’s interesting is the money is being edited by swift so it’s an international brand transfer, I’d imagine reversing one of these would be much harder ?

      ^ Above is incorrect just logged into bank account, and it was a 'direct credit' and dad had only given BSB & ACC #

    • vikvance on 17/10/2019 - 08:16
      +8

      Bank transfers can be reversed if the person who made the transfer tells their bank that they made an error.

      Here is CBA's info page on reversing transfers:
      https://www.commbank.com.au/guidance/consumer-finance/what-t…

      • HighAndDry on 17/10/2019 - 11:16
        +6

        Most common situation isn't actually that it's just reversed, it's that the transfer comes from a hacked account or using funds which were hacked.

  • quaddie on 17/10/2019 - 07:40
    +24

    100% a scam. Don't refund any of the money that came thru as it'll be reversed soon.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:01
      +3

      Noted

      • quaddie on 17/10/2019 - 20:31
        +1

        Good luck mate.

      • LightningMcQueen on 17/10/2019 - 22:21
        +1

        Would you mind updating the forum later? I'm also looking at selling my car soon.

        • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 22:25
          +3

          will update next week when the transaction happens :)

    • bmerigan on 17/10/2019 - 21:54
      -6

      Errr, not 100%

      • ESEMCE on 18/10/2019 - 07:54
        +8

        99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999998%

        It's a scam!

        • 51ngh on 20/10/2019 - 03:55
          -1

          Stuck kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkeys?

  • Bourb on 17/10/2019 - 07:52
    +7

    Definitely this -
    https://www.scamwatch.gov.au/types-of-scams/buying-or-sellin…

  • barbarella on 17/10/2019 - 09:00

    BIG scam - warning signals +++ at your first statement (above No.1)

  • aoeueoa on 17/10/2019 - 09:14

    Clarify if the funds are actually sitting in your dad's bank, or if they're just sending fake screen shots of transfers etc.

    • HighAndDry on 17/10/2019 - 11:16
      +7

      Even if it is, the transfer could be fraudulent and the bank will reverse it.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:02

      Funds are in bank account, luckily dad had given the bank account he uses to pay tax so he transferred it to another account and it worked - so funds are definitely cleared

      • stumo on 17/10/2019 - 19:11
        +17

        Not cleared if they are stolen/fraudulent. Your dad is on the hook for that money if the bank can't get it back.

      • abb on 18/10/2019 - 17:05
        -1

        Move that cash to another bank bro, before it vanishes

      • ProlapsedHeinous on 20/10/2019 - 19:17

        All that will happen, is your account will go into the negative for the amount owed. then if you don't pay it back the debt will be sent off to debt collectors.

  • burningrage on 17/10/2019 - 09:17
    +5

    Lol. I stopped reading after OP mentioned "Pilot".

    How many scams examples involve the word "Pilot"?

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:03
      -5

      I did some background research on the guy, I know you could easily make a fake Fb profile but his fb did say he works at Etihad airways and he had is bil as a friend

      • DarwinBoy on 18/10/2019 - 18:53
        +2

        If you consider scamming as a job. It pays for them to put just a little bit of effort.
        Making a fake profile on FB would be a minimum requirement. Try making a video call on messenger. See who answers.

  • Bid Sniper on 17/10/2019 - 09:28
    +4

    Scam

  • burningrage on 17/10/2019 - 09:28
    +1

    I believe this is a scam but what VikVance posted about reversing transfers intrigued my interest.

    Here is the relevant section of that page.

    How long will it take?
    The sooner you inform your bank, the quicker the money will be returned to your account (as long as the recipient’s bank doesn’t dispute your request).

    Timings differ from bank to bank but with CommBank if you report a mistake:

    "Within 10 business days: Money is returned to your account if you contact CommBank within 10 business days and the money is still in the recipient’s account and we are satisfied that the mistake is genuine

    Between 11 business days and 7 months: It takes longer to return money to your account if you report a mistake after 10 business days

    Over 7 months: If, by going back through your statements, you notice a mistake that happened over seven months ago you may find it more challenging to recover your money. The recipient has to first consent to the return of your funds. It’s still worth getting in touch with your bank though"

    There are two things here. First, it says CBA will refund if they are satisfied that the mistake is genuine. If OP received an email saying money has been sent from his account OR has a screenshot of the transfer (yes, could be faked but can the inwards transfer be matched to this screenshot?), would this be a proof that the transfer was not a mistake? Of course if the inwards can't be matched to the screenshot, then that's scam straight away but if it is true, then it can't be a mistaken transfer - ie: deliberate transfer).

    Two. What's stopping OP to then empty his account and move it somewhere. Keep it for 7 months and then safe to return it since any request would now require owner's consent?

    We need more examples of how transferred monies can be reversed in real, not just theoritical documentation. I rarely seen examples of money taken from own account without your consent (unless hacked but even then OTP would save the day as new payee would need to be 2FA-ed)

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:03

      Since it was a swift international transfer, can it be easily reversed ?

      ^ Above is incorrect just logged into bank account, and it was a 'direct credit' and dad had only given BSB & ACC #

  • Skramit on 17/10/2019 - 10:00
    +2

    This is a scam. Do nothing more with this buyer. Don't reverse the funds, don't send them any funds. Cut off all contact other than to say "sorry the car is no longer for sale".

    In the spirit of aborting from this sale……you need to be Maverick.

    Iceman: Mayday mayday, Mav's in trouble. He's in a flat spin he's headed out to sea!
    Goose: Seven thousand!
    Goose: Six! Uhhhh….
    Maverick: Goose, I can't reach the ejection handle!
    Maverick: You're gonna have to punch us out! EJECT EJECT EJECT!
    Goose: I'm trying…
    Maverick: EJECT EJECT EJECT!!! Watch the canopy!

    • bmerigan on 17/10/2019 - 21:57
      +4

      So your suggestion is to steal $15,000 from the buyer based on an untrustworthy outlook. Nice.

    • bdl on 19/10/2019 - 13:34

      Never be Goose, even if you can play the piano

  • hawkeye on 17/10/2019 - 11:19
    +10

    Roll the funds into another bank you'll soon see if the funds are legit. My guess is he's trying to scam 17.5K

    All funds to be cleared until the sale is final.

    If you've got that sort of money to chuck you'd just get off the plane and buy new.
    None of it makes sense which bank and country did the transfer come from ring them up.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:09
      -2

      He did this morning, transferred 10k to make sure it'd cleared

      Exactly my suspiscion as well, why would anyone transfer 16.5k blindly for a used car, whilst overseas

      Yeah good idea i'll do that

  • [Deactivated] on 17/10/2019 - 12:09
    +2

    Ok, I'm going to say it: what if it's a genuine mistake and not a scam?

    Edit: when was the facebook account created and how many friends does he have?

    • bohn on 17/10/2019 - 12:11
      +2

      there are ways to quickly add a lot of friends to your account for scamming purposes.
      in fact, some people sell this service for a small fee.

      • [Deactivated] on 17/10/2019 - 12:14

        True but can you change the 'joined in ' date for your facebook account?

        • wkd on 19/10/2019 - 10:20

          stolen accounts

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:16

      good point, created 2011, 81 friends

      • DarwinBoy on 18/10/2019 - 18:55
        -1

        If I was a pilot for Etihad I'm pretty sure I would have more then 81 flight attendants as friends.

      • Ulysses31 on 18/10/2019 - 18:57

        Same thing those "propaganda factories" did in Russia, for twisting the US election.

        And who says its the same guy you think it is.

        This thread was over before it started.

        ABORT-ABORT-ABORT

  • Skramit on 17/10/2019 - 12:48
    +2

    OP, if by some small chance this is actually legit, the only way I would complete the sale is by bank cheque where you physically go with the ACTUAL buyer (not his brother in law) who's name will be on the transfer of ownership forms (verifying their ID with drivers license), to your bank to deposit their bank cheque. Only when the bank cheque hits your account, you hand over the keys.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 12:51

      I got him to send through some photo ID (Aus passport, and he sent his Aviation license and it appears legit (photocopy)) - also asked him for a bank statement showign the funds left his account

      told him that the rest of the funds will have to be in cashier's cheque form & plan to follow what you said above

      • Skramit on 17/10/2019 - 12:57

        Did you ask why he sent 16k? Really weird.

        • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 13:13

          I read through the conversation and my dad had agreed to it to be honest, the buyer had said he would wire over amounts until the full amount - I’ve logged onto dads bank account and transferred it into another account for safety. I’m thinking I should email the buyer and tell him to stop the transfer and to do the remainder in person as a cashiers cheque

          • Skramit on 17/10/2019 - 13:18

            @paraneoplastic: I mean if this nupty wants to pay in full by transfer in advance….. then you transfer the money out of that account. I'd happily hand over the keys.

      • RotundPolarBear on 17/10/2019 - 14:01
        +3

        I'm surprised people will send a random stranger a copy of their passport and other ID. Seems rife for identity theft.

        Also quite curious how much did he have in his bank account.

        • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 14:41
          +1

          He sent a screenshot but the reference numbers matched so not faked, it was from an Aussie bank account, had 150k+

  • windale on 17/10/2019 - 12:53
    +4

    sounds like a scam but in saying that I sold a caravan to someone sight unseen who was from overseas (but doing some work in Australia). He asked me to deliver it to a friend a few hours away from where I lived, for an additional fee. Things I did was.

    Got a photo of their drivers licence/Passport. (I also sent him mine as there was a bit of trust going both ways)
    Talked to them over the phone a couple of times. (he called me, I called him to make sure the number was valid)
    Got them to pay for an inspection (I arranged, they paid direct)
    Got the money transferred into my bank by direct deposit (he had an australian account) and I then transferred into another bank and account. I wouldnt accept paypal, western union, foreign transfer or any other form of payment (except cash).
    Waited a few weeks before delivering as he was travelling at the time.

    obviously i had my doubts all throughout the process but figured I had the van and as long as I didn't hand it over before I transferred the money into a seperate bank then I was pretty right.

    its been a year and all good.

    In your case I would just hang onto the deposit and $16500 until the guy is back in the country and then close the deal in person. I'm not sure what I would do if he wanted the $16500 back. probably delay and talk to your bank.

    I also purchased a landcruiser once and for payment the owner and I both went into my bank and up to the counter and did a direct transfer to his account at the teller. This went through to his account within a few minutes, they did charge a small fee to make it happen straight away. The seller would not accept a bank cheque as these have been stopped in the past so he way worried about that. I wasn't about to carry $60000+ around in cash.

    good luck

  • HighAndDry on 17/10/2019 - 16:41
    +6

    SCAM

    I've read the rest of the replies but honestly this still screams scam to me.

    • abb on 18/10/2019 - 17:02
      +1

      OP: I disagree, because some easily-faked thing !

  • lltravel on 17/10/2019 - 17:23
    +1

    how did the transfer come in? If its swift transfer he can't reverse it

    I like how everyone screams scam but ppl in the middle eat are loaded

    72k is pocket change.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 18:59

      So he the buyer is aussie, just a expat who is returning after retiring and (i'd imagine) raking in the $$ with 0% income tax in UAE

      • burningrage on 17/10/2019 - 21:06

        Ooooohhhh I would love that 0% tax :-)

  • Danger on 17/10/2019 - 17:33

    Run forest run

  • playswithfire on 17/10/2019 - 17:43

    110% scam.

    Your dad is going to lose the car.

    • bmerigan on 17/10/2019 - 22:02

      Not 100%

      • Ulysses31 on 18/10/2019 - 18:59

        Swimming against the stream, bub

  • Michaelz101 on 17/10/2019 - 18:10

    Fishy AF. too risky

  • hawkeye on 17/10/2019 - 19:45
    -3

    Just saying myself personally would not let my son see my bank accounts let him login and allow him to transfer money online from my account/s.
    2 If I was buying a car I wouldn't be showing that i had 150K or any part of my statements to the vendor.

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 19:55
      +3

      i manage my parents portfolio and assests as they're getting up there in age and don't really understand how the stock market works. I have their complete trust and before they do anything rash they always consult me (i did law/econ part time whilst completing my medical degree)

      the buyer didn't show the balance per say, i calculated it using the data that was present on the screen shot. I got my dad to put a trace request from his bank to reconfirm that it did in fact come from an accoutn registered in the buyers name.

    • aoeueoa on 17/10/2019 - 23:37
      +7

      That's more a statement about you than OP.

  • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 19:59

    I realise now, after giving it more thought, this is a tuff place to be stuck in.
    because:

    -> The 17.5k has settled and cleared into the account

    if it is one of those refund scams as highlighted by a few people above, i'm not sure how to go about delineating that.

    My current school of thought is to wait till the buyer gets back to Australia, get one of my lawyer friends to come along with me to meet the buyer, get a contract drawn up and signatures notorized +/- get the buyer to write a stat dec stating he is the owner of the account etc, get buyer to get cashier's cheque for the remainder of the sale cost and deposit it in dad's account and get a confirmation from teller the funds are cleared.

    • bmerigan on 17/10/2019 - 22:05
      +7

      I don't see why you would need a lawyer or contract.
      You already have ID. Just get the transfer papers signed - each of you gets a copy. And then get the money done at the bank.

  • yamahamoto on 17/10/2019 - 20:20

    Back when Ebay still let you contacted seller via phone. My wife sold a handbag to a buyer from Sydney and she transferred the whole amount in a transaction 5k. I just couldn’t understand why she took that risk. Waited overnight and took the money out. Sent her the bag, cancelled my eBay listing. She even thanked us after receiving the bag. Go figure

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 20:24
      +3

      I'm starting to hinge on perhaps i'm being too pedantic and this is a genuine buyer - but i guess you can never be too safe

      • profar on 18/10/2019 - 10:25
        -2

        Well I'm with you lets see if I can get 18 negs again . A lot of people on this site are paranoid and don't think too much . All the scams I've seen listed aren't in play full stop !

        Just hold the vehicle till totally cleared funds in your account , then if need be transfer out to pls the paranoid individual's in this thread lol . 100% Safe !

        Main point now for my fans is 10 k has been transferred out of the account therefore reversal scam out of play with funds so far and please watch Dumb and Dumber :)

        That's another point scammer down 17.5 K , with the above 10 k out of play .

        Rich Scammer ?

      • huntress_love on 19/10/2019 - 22:35
        +1

        I had someone transfer $500 for a laptop on Gumtree listing. And then sent it to them after it cleared.
        I guess they are trusting people out there hence why there are scammers too!

    • trapper on 18/10/2019 - 11:56
      +5

      I guess anyone spending $5k on a flipping handbag doesn't really care too much about risking $5k

  • burningrage on 17/10/2019 - 21:08
    +1

    Maybe there is humanity after all :-)

  • Bellpop on 17/10/2019 - 21:18

    So, what happened?

  • BartholemewH on 17/10/2019 - 22:29

    There are people with money that operate this way. My boss sold a Range Rover recently and so far I've seen 100k+ in bits and pieces hit our bank account with more to come. The buyer hasn't even nominated a pick up date.

  • BillyG687 on 17/10/2019 - 22:36
    -1

    Nope nope nope. This is a 100% scam. This is exactly what happens with these types of purchases.

    It sounds suspiciously like this type of scam:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-02/scammers-targeting-ca…

    • paraneoplastic on 17/10/2019 - 22:47

      The reason i'm still even considering still closing the sale is, because a). provided real ID proving he was an Aus citizen

      b). he arrives back in Aus next week and will meet in person to close the rest of the funds (with cash withdrawl from his account and deposit in dads - luckily both are with the same bank - also plenty of security cameras

      But i completely see where you are coming from, the situation is just suss overall

      • barbarella on 18/10/2019 - 08:47
        +4

        you are not listening to us!!

        • paraneoplastic on 18/10/2019 - 10:07

          I know :( … but I don’t see how he could try any tbh big sly if we are literally at the bank when he withdraws the remainder and deposits the cash in my dads account

      • g0dskitchen on 19/10/2019 - 07:31

        Sign the transfer paperwork, meet in person in a bank to pay rest of the fund… I will hand over the keys.

  • [Deactivated] on 17/10/2019 - 22:48

    Don't kill the sale, & don't give ANY money back, & don't let them see the car again until final transaction.

    If it falls through, they can sue you for the funds. You then get $16k for playing the scammer right.
    I've done a little similar to this on a small scale twice. Don't like bad guys.

    Insist on verifying their workplace as a pilot, using (a friend in) Asio, Interpol etc, if they get aggressive.

  • TomatoMan on 18/10/2019 - 06:54

    It's a SCAM SCAM SCAM. Meet at the bank might be the best option to receive the full amount and close the deal. Nothing else. I heard this story when I was selling the car too.

  • Gabbatron44 on 18/10/2019 - 07:31

    As an avid car fan, what's the 72k car?

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