Stop Vs Give Way Priority at Intersection

LAssassinForever on 03/10/2019 - 16:25
Last edited 03/10/2019 - 16:52 by 1 other user

Context

This relates to this intersection in Wentworthville.

Image 1
Image 2

In Image 1, the van is at a Stop sign. In Image 2, which is the bird-eye view of this intersection, 'C' is the point where the van is.
'A' and 'B' have a Give Way sign.
To add to the complexity, if 'D' takes a right turn, that would be like going straight, as the road seems to be turning. Also because 'D' has no Stop or Give Way signs. Even Google map has highlighted it as a single road. But if you go by the street names, then actually 'D' is turning right from Veron St on to the Lane St.

Question

Please help me figure out who has the priority in each case.

Vehicle 'A'

Since it has the dashed line, it has to give way. Logically, the only vehicle to give way to in this case is 'C'. But 'C' has a Stop sign.

1) If we think that Stop is "stronger" than Give Way (perhaps because it's a solid line, and also because I think in Victoria, Stop sign is legally stronger), then 'A' has priority and 'C' has to wait. If this is the case, why put the dashed line in front of 'A' at all? Couldn't it be made for 'B' only? So like only half the width of the road could have had a dashed line.
2) But if we go by the definition that Stop should wait for 3 secs and proceed when it's safe, while Give Way must give way to other traffic, then 'C' should stop, then take a right turn onto Veron St, and then 'A' is free to proceed.

So which one has priority, 'A' or 'C'?

Vehicle 'B'

'B' will give way to 'D'.
But then similar to A's argument above, should it wait for 'C' to turn right, or 'C' will wait for 'B'?

Vehicle 'C'

It will probably be clear once the above is answered.

Vehicle 'D'

It has the ultimate priority over everyone else.

Automotive

Comments

  • wei13 on 03/10/2019 - 16:34
    +1

    "Give way" means … 'Give way'. You give way to everyone, including vehicle C.

    • trex on 03/10/2019 - 17:13
      +4

      "A STOP sign or a STOP line means you must give way to all vehicles travelling in, entering or approaching the intersection, regardless of direction. You must give way to any pedestrians crossing the road into which you are turning. You must remain stationary until it is safe for the driver to proceed."

    • wei13 on 04/10/2019 - 09:06
      +5

      So looks like my own comment above is not correct. I found the following from QLD Transport website:

      "So what happens at an intersection with both a stop and a give way sign? Contrary to popular belief, a stop sign is not more powerful than a give way sign. The signs effectively cancel each other out and normal give way rules still apply. Both must give way to all vehicles …"

  • Nugs on 03/10/2019 - 16:38
    +7

    poorly planned
    intersection would be better without the give way sign
    .

    • Euphemistic on 03/10/2019 - 17:16
      +2

      This. It should be simple to understand who gives way and any priority at an intersection but this case confuses with a stop sign, a give way and a ‘nothing’

      Better solution would be to install a roundabout.

    • stueyh on 04/10/2019 - 13:29
      -1

      Until a car at B hits a car at C and says "BuT THerE wAs No gIvE WaY siGN"

    • PopCounty on 05/10/2019 - 12:18

      Guess making a roundabout would be simpler in this particular case. Intersection, is still feasible.

  • spackbace on 03/10/2019 - 16:50
    +3

    Free-for-all, Carmageddon/GTA style

    • AdosHouse on 03/10/2019 - 16:53

      Needs more pedestrians for Carmageddon style.

      • spackbace on 03/10/2019 - 16:53

        Flash-mob time!

        • AdosHouse on 03/10/2019 - 16:54

          Electras car for the win!

  • AdosHouse on 03/10/2019 - 16:52
    +7

    D has to give way to no one, D has right of way over others.
    A also doesn't have to give way to anyone, can proceed any time.
    B has a give way line and must give way to D.
    C gives way to everyone.
    Not that complex.

    • AssassinForever on 03/10/2019 - 16:58
      -1

      The first comment says Give Way means 'Give Way', so B needs to give way to C. But you are saying C needs to give way to B. This contradiction makes me believe that this question is "complex".

      • AdosHouse on 03/10/2019 - 17:08
        +5

        The road that C is on has a line (half dashed and half solid) all the way across it, that means that that road is the "side" road. This is a simple T-intersection, albeit with a bend in it. Which mean all cars on that road must give way to all cars on the continuing road.

        • AssassinForever on 03/10/2019 - 17:10

          Makes sense. Thanks!
          But then A should not have a dashed line in front of it, right? A mistake by authorities?

          • AdosHouse on 03/10/2019 - 17:18
            +1

            @AssassinForever: I don't think I have ever a line only painted across only 1 lane before?? Maybe I have and just don't remember.

            More than likely it is just there because it will make cars slow down when approaching a tight bend in the road. I wouldn't want to hit that at 60km/h.

          • dizzle on 03/10/2019 - 21:32

            @AssassinForever: I've been on that road. New to the area, but not confusing when you approach.
            A, B and D are on the main road.
            Give way means you can roll through if clear, where stop means you have to stop and give way.
            Both main rd and give way have priority.

            I may misremember but I think its a 50 zone. The approach to A and B are a 90 degree corner as well, so the only approach where people would likely be at 50km/h is D

        • Chandler on 04/10/2019 - 08:38

          OP: AdosHouse nailed it.

          I think Veron St onto Lane St (North) being the main thoroughfare, but with Lane St "continuing" south, makes it look complicated.

          If they changed the arrows on Lane St (North) heading into Veron St to be straight ahead for the left lane (with no dashed line, and no arrow really), and a right arrow for the right lane onto Lane St (South) (with no line really required), that'd at least look less confusing.

          The lines are correct, but are only really necessary due to the way they've marked the lanes (with the arrows). If they did the above, the stop line is the only one really needed.

    • Exyvia on 04/10/2019 - 09:17

      Here's a dilemma,

      If D does a U-ey, Does A have to give way?

  • Baysew on 03/10/2019 - 16:54
    +6

    Is there a butcher shop or bus stop near by?

  • robbyjones on 03/10/2019 - 16:57

    Interesting, I am not sure but I would think that the person at the stop sign has to give way to everyone as you must come to a complete stop, give way you do not have to stop. So my take is everyone gives way to D, A just carry on unless C has already entered he intersection then give way. C gives way to everyone. If all cars meet at the lines at the same time A and B give way to D, C gives way to every other car.

  • ratoloko on 03/10/2019 - 17:15
    -1

    Bad planning but this is how I see.
    Also, you guys have a bad understanding of road rules.

    Give Way: You only give way if there is a car already in the intersection, or being polite to a truck driver if there is a hell of traffic behind you. I am rider and if I can I hold the traffic behind me to allow a truck to turn as they need a lot of space and drivers here are ashles, they don't wait.

    A and B are Give Way if there is a car ALREADY in the intersection ONLY. You don't have to wait for C, C has full stop sign.
    C is a full stop. It is also the end of the road. You have to stop no matter what.
    C can only turn left with care if applicable. C can only turn right if there no traffic in the intersection.
    D has full access and do not have to wait for anybody.

    If C fails to stop and go ahead like the sign is not there and hit you where:

    You were at A/B: The driver is fd.
    You were at D: The driver is f    d twice as much

    If you were at A/B and C got mad at you. The driver can go (profanity) himself.

    Give Way > Full stop. This is no questionable

    This is what drivers do not understand here, stop and nothing is the same.

    Simple

    • theHMASfriendship on 03/10/2019 - 17:23

      How many whiiiskyys have you had?

    • [Deactivated] on 03/10/2019 - 17:30

      Give ways and stops are equal ranking with both having to give way. There isn't some hierarchy written in law. Both have to give way to traffic already on the road they are entering. You'd be toast if your defence was that Give Ways beat Stops if there is proof or a witness that the Stop sign car entered the road first.

      • ratoloko on 04/10/2019 - 09:05
        -1

        That explains why Australia is known by its terrible drivers……don't know how to drive and don't know how to read hahahahaha

        • [Deactivated] on 04/10/2019 - 10:53
          +2

          Plenty of situations that a driver at a give way or stop cannot see the sign of the other driver. It's ridiculous for you to think a driver must know both signs, some not facing them and pulling rank. Doesn't happen. Give ways and stop signs both give way equally.

          You are just trying to deflect a demonstrably wrong initial comment. Your statement "Give Way > Full stop." is wrong. They both give way equally.

          You also write that people can't read. "This is no questionable." lol

  • kahn on 03/10/2019 - 19:17
    +1

    A clever person would open a car repair business close to that intersection.

    • No ONE on 05/10/2019 - 13:44

      I think there is one.

  • Medrad on 03/10/2019 - 19:29

    Given the contradictory signage/line marking/scenarios, there is a simple fix to this situation…

    The road markers downright f***ed up and put the painted give-way line in the wrong place. To make sense of the whole situation is should've been painted between the white islands on Veron & Lane streets (Vehicle D -> B). This way the vehicle B has continuation rights at the corner, but has to give-way to Vehicle D if required.

    Regardless, vehicle C is at at Stop sign and has to wait for all traffic.

  • Snake 4 on 03/10/2019 - 21:08

    Car D has full right of way.

    If car C is turning right they must give way to A,B and D.

    Trust me. I know.

  • whooah1979 on 03/10/2019 - 21:19
    +1

    But if you go by the street names, then actually 'D' is turning right from Veron St on to the Lane St.

    There is no right turn. Veron st continues on and becomes Lane st. Roads like this are common in NSW.

  • pjetson on 03/10/2019 - 21:47

    I think the intent of the giveway sign is to make sure that people don't turn right into the street with the stop sign, in front of oncoming traffic. The giveway sign doesn't really have any function for traffic continuing on around to the left.

    The only confusion I can see here is if someone turns right out of the street with the stop sign, does someone facing the giveway sign have to give way to them? After all, they are facing a giveway sign, and they have an obligation to avoid an accident.

    • Snake 4 on 04/10/2019 - 12:19

      If you are confused as most here appear to be get a copy of the NSW road rules.

  • Snake 4 on 03/10/2019 - 21:48

    @ whooah1979
    There is no right turn. Veron st continues on and becomes Lane st. Roads like this are common in NSW

    No it doesn't. Lane street runs from the GWH to the railway line.

    Vernon st is a secondary Rd than has a lot of traffic on it and runs from Hawksbury Rd Westmead carrying traffic to Wentworthville.

    You can turn right from Vernon into Lane st.

    • whooah1979 on 04/10/2019 - 06:23

      The CAMs warns that the road alignment is changing. Motorists are not required to indicate right when they travel on Veron St and continue on to Lane st. However, they're required to indicate if they want to turn left.
      https://tinyurl.com/y58ezuj7

      • Snake 4 on 04/10/2019 - 12:15

        Oh my god.

        Think you best redo your licence test.

        So you can make a right turn into another street without indicating? Do you actually know why lane st has the stop and the give way signs?

        Vernon st doesn't become Lane st. As previously stated Lane st runs from the GWH to the railway line which is past Vernon st.

  • Screamingeagle on 03/10/2019 - 21:51

    I know it is from QLD and not NSW, but the QLD transport site has a nice video explaining an intersection with both a stop sign and a give way sign. https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/give-way

    • Euphemistic on 04/10/2019 - 06:16
      +1

      The key takeaway there is stop sign and give way are equal in ‘power’ for giving way. In the case of both in place the ‘unsigned’ give way rules apply.

      I guess it’s easier to continue on if you don’t need to stop though which does give the give way the edge in terms of who will go first.

      Still a dogs breakfast of an intersection though.

  • chumlee on 04/10/2019 - 06:40
    +1

    Needs a roundabout

    • whooah1979 on 04/10/2019 - 07:08
      -1

      Spending $10000s on roundabouts are a waste of funds when motorist don't know how to use them.

  • terrys on 04/10/2019 - 08:08

    The Give Way sign is by the right hand lane, and serves to clear up any ambiguity regarding whether travelling from the road with the give way to the road with the stop sign is a continuation or a right hand turn.

    Given some of the questions posed in this forum, it is needed to stop inexperienced or confused drivers barrelling right through on the basis that "Lane St stays Lane St so it wasn't a turn." The rules in S.A. are quite clear - divide roads like the Lane St and Veron St ones are two seperate roads, and the crossings for u-turns and joining roads over the dividing strips are each intersections.

  • CodeXD on 04/10/2019 - 08:17
    +1

    Need a roundabout.

    Sincerely,

    Canberra

  • HeWhoKnows on 04/10/2019 - 09:10
    +1

    Stop and Give way are the same priority ! There is no difference.

    The technical difference is that at a STOP sign you must come to a full stop before proceeding whereas with Give way you can drive through slowly and safely whilst ensuring no traffic is coming. However even at a Give Way sign its always best to stop and ensure its safe to proceed.

    Vehicles turning right at either sign must give way to all traffic regardless.

  • Waldo000000 on 04/10/2019 - 13:10
    1. C gives way to A because both have a give way/stop sign (which effectively cancel each other out for determining priority), and A is turning left but C is turning right into its path
    2. C gives way to B because both have a give way/stop sign (which effectively cancel each other out for determining priority), and B is traveling straight (surprisingly; see the painted arrow!) while C is turning right across its path
    3. C gives way to D because C has a stop sign
    4. B gives way to D because B has a give way sign

    Simples! (not)

  • Snake 4 on 04/10/2019 - 13:54

    You are correct. That's exactly what I said above in a different way.

    "Car D has full right of way.

    "If car C is turning right they must give way to A,B and D.

    Trust me. I know.".

  • No ONE on 05/10/2019 - 12:10

    Image 1, Car C (the van) has stop sign. I know this area. Car C gives way to cars.

  • PopCounty on 05/10/2019 - 12:23

    On a side note, what an amazing explanation of this situation, OP. Crisp n clear in short notes. 👍
    Edit: Noticed member since 3/10/19. Well worth being onboarded :)

    • AssassinForever on 06/10/2019 - 15:40

      Thanks @PopCounty. I'm a programmer and very active on stackoverflow.com, so kind of know how to ask and answer. ;)

  • Eeples on 09/10/2019 - 11:02

    C stops. If clear at D and A and B. He goes.

    D drives straight through. If C or B crosses his path he toots them for being dangerous.

    A gives way to D only if D went already (A should toot if D caused him to brake harshly).

    B sits there trying to turn right (straight). B should put a right blinker on. B gives way to oncoming D (which is what the give way sign is for) and goes when clear. If C goes right in front of B while waiting then B should toot C for being dangerous.

  • mubd1234 on 09/10/2019 - 14:53

    This is a fairly common intersection layout - there are several of these across Sydney, but this one is channelised (i.e. the approach roads are slightly kinked) so it looks weird, but fundamentally it works the same as a standard cross-roads intersection, except that one of the 'main road' legs (opposite the side of the road not facing stop/give way signs) does not exist.

    Therefore, vehicle D has priority at all times, and vehicle A also has priority at all times due to the left-turn not conflicting with any other movements. Vehicle B must give way to vehicle D, and vehicle C must give way to vehicle D (if they're going left) and vehicle B (if they're going right).

  • jk0720 on 09/10/2019 - 17:36

    just my 2 cents, but wouldnt C have full right of way after D?
    would it not work like a round-a-bout? as in you wait for the vehicle on the right side of the round about, giving way until the right side is clear?
    terrible intersection where even the police would have trouble all agreeing.
    https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/articles/give-…
    At an intersection with both a stop and give way sign, drivers arriving at the intersection must give way to all vehicles on the road before giving way to each other. You must give way to vehicles turning right across your path if you are facing a give way sign.

    • Eeples on 10/10/2019 - 14:22

      When C stops he has to give way to A and B (as well of course to D) when turning right.
      If C thinks it’s clear (no cars at A, B and D) then goes…. if suddenly cars appear at A and B then they need to give way to C.

      That’s what I would do if I was C, B or A.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join