Can I Get out of This Unjust Speeding Ticket?

Ltrapper on 20/05/2019 - 13:11
Last edited 20/05/2019 - 13:11

Turning on to Indian Ocean Drive (main highway north of Perth) from a side road and there was no posted speed signs either at the intersection or on the main road after the turn.

Being the main highway and in the absence of any posted limits otherwise I assume that the speed limit is now 100 kmph.

Unfortunately 500m down the road was a speed camera and I got ticketed for traveling 100 in a 90 zone.

Isn't this unjust? How are we supposed to know the speed limit unless it is properly sign posted. Doesn't seem fair…

Automotive

Comments

    • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 13:23
      +62

      Expecting cars to driving 50kmph (or less) on the highway until they pass the first speed sign is silly and dangerous though…

          • Bargain80 on 20/05/2019 - 16:18
            +11

            @Topdog: is there a written rule to travel 80 KMH on highway if there's no speed limit posted?

            • pegaxs on 21/05/2019 - 07:44
              +12

              @Bargain80:

              is there a written rule…

              Not so much a “written rule”, but I did find this on the WA police site;

              • the default speed limit for freeways is 100 km/h unless zoned otherwise

              • the default speed limit for open areas is 110 km/h. This applies on roads outside built-up areas

              So, in the absence of a speed limit sign, it would be well within OP’s rights to make the judgement based on WA Police recommendation that the limit on an unsignposted area to be at least 100km/h.

              It depends on what WA Police class this road as. Open area, freeway or arterial road.

          • smartazz104 on 21/05/2019 - 07:35
            -1

            @Topdog: And what if the limit was set to 70 for some reason…

        • neyo on 20/05/2019 - 23:39
          +2

          Idiot or troll?

      • abb on 21/05/2019 - 10:43

        This article may help your case in pleading for leniency. It seems to give you somewhat of a basis to assume 100 (although I don't know if the road you're describing would count as a freeway given that it has side roads…)

        https://www.police.wa.gov.au/Traffic/Cameras/Speed/Speed-lim…

  • Skramit on 20/05/2019 - 13:18
    +35

    Just write in and state your case. If you have a good driving record they might issue you a warning.

    EDIT: But can I suggest be polite and precise. If you start waffling on about morals and rights etc you will lose.

      • Skramit on 20/05/2019 - 22:13
        +7

        I just meant present the facts and ask for a warning instead of carrying on about about injustice blah blah which could be tempting.

        Police have discretion to issue warnings when road rules are broken. Not sure about WA but in VIC it’s pretty well known that folks with good driving records can ask for a warning after the fact. Perhaps WA differs?

      • ProlapsedHeinous on 20/05/2019 - 23:04
        +5

        Because It is a person deciding, not a robot. if they get butthurt, they will respond by upholding the infringement. If they convey there has been an injustice, and the driver has a otherwise exemplary record, it does not seem unreasonable to make a judgement call based on the circumstances.

      • crentist on 21/05/2019 - 00:56

        Laws are made by people, for people. Both can make mistakes

      • abb on 21/05/2019 - 10:46
        +3

        If it is a just law, it should be for everyone or no one.

        It should be, I agree. I see dozens of drivers every day flagrantly ignoring road rules without punishment.

        BUT - this is the system we have, and for OP to wear a punishment out of principle when there's an avenue to escape the punishment would harm only OP, not the other wrong-doers. If you've got a good record you can usually get out of a speeding ticket so he'd be mad not to ask.

        • Charity on 21/05/2019 - 15:34

          I know, i get it. From a short term, pragmatic point of view, OP should ask for an exemption. There is no risk, only upside in asking. Although pretty sure WA doesn't have such a legal avenue. With good reason it doesn't have it too (a blindfolded lady justice still partially exists in some states)

          Sigh… just saddening to see my once majority view of fairness is now the minority. Sigh again…

  • tsunamisurfer on 20/05/2019 - 13:22
    -8

    OP…Please refer to the Oxford Dictionary and see how 'unjust' doesn't apply to this scenario.

    • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 13:24
      +9

      "not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair" - sounds bang on

      • Skramit on 20/05/2019 - 13:27
        +2

        This has nothing to to with morality. This is a simple case of a technicality whether you should be expected to know it's 90 or not…. and they will either give due consideration or not.

        • Kangal on 20/05/2019 - 13:56
          +3

          Technicality is the speeding, the Morality part is relevant when it comes to the points/price as a form of punishment.

          • Skramit on 20/05/2019 - 14:25

            @Kangal: That's not a question here is it? Points/price as a punishment are well established for this case. It's just whether the OP meets the criteria or not, which is most likely up to some boffin who issues the fines whether to let OP off with a warning..

            • Kangal on 20/05/2019 - 18:33
              +1

              @Skramit: I mean in the OP, he did write "isn't this unjust"… so, not picking sides but its definitely relevant from a morality sense.

  • spackbace on 20/05/2019 - 13:27
    +2

    How does the camera know you just got on the road? How would the judge?

    You'll be up against a he said/she said scenario.

    Did you get done for 9kph over, or 10+?

    • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 13:48
      +1

      Was 100 in 90 zone so 10+

  • pegaxs on 20/05/2019 - 13:29
    +8

    You forgot to add “iT’s PuRe REvEnUE rAiSiNg!!” to your post.

    Standard answer for these threads here;

    Write a letter explaining that you are sorry you went over the limit but we’re unaware of the true speed limit due to lack of signage. Ask for a review based on past behaviour/lack of infringements. Don’t get indignant and defensive in your request for leniency, just say sorry and ask for a review.

    • pegaxs on 20/05/2019 - 14:18
      +45

      Addendum:

      This appears to be the camera
      Closest road I can find to there that's "within 500m" is Guilderton Road (that is actually closer to 900m away)
      About 200m from this intersection is a speed limit sign that comes 600m before the speed camera (NB: The Google Maps image is from Nov 2018, and the speed limit could have changed or the sign could actually be missing/gone/vandalised/runover/shot/etc…)
      There is also no other roads to enter Indian Ocean Drive from between this sign and the speed camera according to Google Maps.

      Heading out from Perth, opposite side of the road, north bound, there is a speed sign about 50m in front of the camera. (Again, photo taken in Nov, 2018)

      So, Unless I have the roads wrong, OP, You need to find out what that road sign says, or you need to give more info about what road you pulled out from or what direction you were heading at the time (although the camera seems to be for Perth/South bound traffic…)

      At the moment, all of these photos point to the fact that between the camera and ANY point of turning onto Indian Ocean Drive, there is a speed sign. I cant dispute what the signs say, but unless I have totally the wrong location, I can dispute you saying… "there was no posted speed signs either at the intersection or on the main road after the turn…"

      On a giggle worthy note, some other road users not happy with the camera in this article…

      • one man clan on 20/05/2019 - 14:50
        +10

        Detective Pegaxs in the house. Bake him away, toys!

        • MagicMushroom on 20/05/2019 - 16:24
          +31

          too specific information on public forum

          You live on a highway?

          • Ozpit on 21/05/2019 - 10:48

            @MagicMushroom: Yep, just like 123456789 would be waaaaayy too specific for a username. Totally unnecessary.

        • pegaxs on 20/05/2019 - 16:40
          +15

          I looked for the location of speed cameras on that particular highway, and the one I posted above seems to be the only speed camera located on that highway.

          The point is, it doesn’t matter if you drove up from Perth or down from Geraldton, the fact remains is that according to Google maps, there is a speed sign located 600m away on one side and 50m from the opposite approach. If the sign is not there, go for a drive and get proof and put that in your review letter…

          And I am sure that if you gave the location of of the “correct” speed camera, that members of this forum are not going to drive out to Bumfcuk, WA in the off chance of maybe seeing you drive past… You’re not really that interesting to most people that aren’t yourself.

          • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 17:48
            -7

            @pegaxs: Yeah but it wasn't a fixed camera and nowhere near this location.

            I do appreciate the effort of your research though, and didn't mean to waste your time with my vague description of the location.

            Also just to clarify, I have checked via streetview and I didn't miss any speed signs, everything was as described in my post.

            edit: Also the limit in my case was 90 kmph, this camera you found appears to be in a 100 zone.

            • pegaxs on 20/05/2019 - 18:35
              +6

              @trapper: All good. Would have been nice to know this ahead of doing the research, but it’s still good fun doing the looking up.

              There was also articles from various sources stating that the speed limits on this road had been lowered recently. This lead to my “Nov. ‘18”, as I wasnt sure if the 100km/h signs were still applicable at that section of road.

              The only other place I could find that hides mobile speed cameras is near Lancelin. I’ll be sure to not go there and not look for you…

            • abb on 21/05/2019 - 10:38

              @trapper:

              it wasn't a fixed camera

              Do the mobile speed cameras not have to put up warning signs in WA? Here in NSW they have to put up 2 or 3 signs warning that your speed will be checked, and the speed limit.

              • apptrack on 21/05/2019 - 11:20
                +1

                @abb: Nope they hide in the bushes.

        • Geryatric on 20/05/2019 - 19:42
          +3

          Obviously there was though… or you would be transparent on the location.

          • PAOK11 on 20/05/2019 - 20:16

            @Geryatric: pegaxs has plenty of time on his hands. no need to apologise

            • pegaxs on 20/05/2019 - 22:45
              +3

              @PAOK11: Monday RDO. :D

              Good to see you’re still butt hurt over being wrong in the Maccas drive through phone thread…

          • trapper on 21/05/2019 - 11:37
            -1

            @Geryatric: lol man, what possible motivation would I have to lie about this?

            • QW3RTY on 22/05/2019 - 13:36
              +1

              @trapper: Being guilty of being wrong on the internet. Unforgivable.

    • bmerigan on 21/05/2019 - 21:34

      Well it is actually.
      80% of speeding fines are for excess speeds of less than 10 km/h.
      Are we really going to say that those 80% of people are homicidally dangerous and should be legislated off the road?

      • pegaxs on 21/05/2019 - 22:01

        Speeding fines are optional. Revenue is typically attached to things that are not optional or difficult to dodge, such as council rates, electricity rates, water rates, etc…

        Speeding fines are more akin to a toll road payment. You can either pay the toll and use the short cut, or you can not pay the toll and take the long way home. If you exceed the posted speed limit, there is a toll for using the “fast lane”.

        I have not paid a speeding fine in something like 25+ years. It can’t be rEvEnUE rAiSiNg if everyone has the ability to opt out. I can’t opt out of paying my land rates, but I certainly can opt out of speeding fines, parking fines or road tolls but simply not doing or using these services…

        And anyway, there is a few logical fallacies with your comment. A little straw man (no one was saying these people are homicidal) a little slippery slope (legislate off the road) and a little begging the question (are we really going to say…)

        • bmerigan on 22/05/2019 - 18:20

          I believe the original purpose of speeding fines was to stop dangerous drivers?
          If 80% of the people getting fines are not dangerous drivers then the only reason to fine them at all is for the revenue.

          I pretty much agree with your 2nd paragraph, but still think they are ridiculous.

          • pegaxs on 22/05/2019 - 19:32
            +1

            @bmerigan: Oh, I don’t disagree that low end speeding fines are utterly ridiculous, as they are. Do they add to revenue, certainly. Is their sole reason for existing is nothing more than filling the state revenue office, I have my doubts.

            Are they stupid, yes.
            Are they added to revenue, most certainly.
            But, are they mandatory, no.

            I think of low end speeding fines as more like a toll, as they are totally voluntary. And something else that I maintain is that, while we all have the ability to opt out of paying them by just adhering to the law, I fear that if everyone just started to drive slower, the powers that be would just move the goal posts to make it more frustrating for drivers (think: all freeways are now 60km/h) or make the line between what’s lawful and what isn’t so blurry it would be hard to know if you were in the right or not (think: like drink driving 0.05, speed limits of 100 would mean up to 99km/h, 100 would get you a ticket)

            But yes, fining someone for 103 in a 100 zone is just pure arseholery and doesn’t teach anyone a lesson other than (fropanity) the police.

  • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2019 - 13:36
    +2

    No one can judge this on what has been written. Needs some facts, context and distances. If a sign was damaged you might have a case. If not, it's a stretch.

    • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 13:48
      -4

      There is no sign at all.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2019 - 13:53
        +1

        I would drive the highway section with a passenger and a camera. If you contest it, the fact it changed and didn't have a sign would be signifcant consideration. I would only concentrate on that part. Find out when it was changed and the exact position of signs.

  • p1 ama on 20/05/2019 - 13:40

    Can I Get out of This Unjust Speeding Ticket?

    Simple answer - you can try and write a letter, and failing that, you can go to court and plead not guilty. The magistrate will decide your fate. Court costs are relatively small, so you might as well take a punt and see how the court system works.

    What your chances are, nobody knows.

    If you can't be bothered, then just pay the fine, it's not a big deal and just remember that it's 90 for next time.

    • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 13:49
      -1

      I don't think worth going to court for $200, the 4 points sucks though. (was over Easter)

      • p1 ama on 20/05/2019 - 20:20

        How did you lose 4 points for going 100 in a 90 zone? I thought that's a 1 demerit fine?

        • trapper on 21/05/2019 - 11:39

          That is what the notice says. I guess its normally 2 points but double demerits because of public holidays so I get 4

    • crashloaded on 20/05/2019 - 14:19

      If you lose in court on an infringement do they ever award costs?

      • factor on 20/05/2019 - 19:16

        Only legal costs - that is, you paid a lawyer. Self represented get nothing. This is entirely unfair in cases where the government was entirely wrong. But that's the law (in at least most jurisdictions). Find the detail in the court operating rules.

        • crashloaded on 20/05/2019 - 20:42

          No I mean if you lose, do you have to pay the govt. Legal costs if they use a lawyer.

  • steven6 on 20/05/2019 - 14:08
    +4

    If you're married to the police commissioner then yes . Otherwise I don't like your chances.

  • tranter on 20/05/2019 - 15:11
    +3

    Yes, probably unfair.

    However, this from Legal Aid Victoria (most likely the same in WA):

    https://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/find-legal-answers/traffic-o…

    It is also not a defence to say that you did not know the speed limit because there were no signs.

    Still worth writing a letter as others have suggested. Good luck.

  • Cheapo Moose on 20/05/2019 - 15:44

    Where exactly. Time to pull out Street View to see speed signs.

    At the end of the day, you drive the signed speed limit until you pass another sign telling you otherwise.

    Never assume.

  • Donaldhump on 20/05/2019 - 15:51
    +2

    speed limit is what you passed last or 50km (I assume) if yet to pass something. if the last thing you passed is 90km and your doing 100km then you are speeding

    what was the last thing you passed?

    reminds me of a time 500 years ago when i was driving in Ireland and the speed limit went from 100 to 60 on the highway…. so i slowed down, and then thought everyone else was speeding… only after 5 minutes i realised i was in northern Ireland and the speed was now in miles.

    • abb on 21/05/2019 - 10:41

      speed limit is what you passed last or 50km (I assume)

      In matters of law, you should never assume.

      https://www.police.wa.gov.au/Traffic/Cameras/Speed/Speed-lim…

      the default speed limit for freeways is 100 km/h unless zoned otherwise
      …
      the default speed limit for open areas is 110 km/h. This applies on roads outside built-up areas

      • Donaldhump on 21/05/2019 - 11:23

        i'm talking about when you pull off your driveway onto a street.

        • abb on 21/05/2019 - 11:50

          Well OP got a ticket driving on a highway…

          • Donaldhump on 21/05/2019 - 12:18

            @abb: and he would have driven from his driveway to get the highway and by time he got to the highway he passed a sign, but until he passes the first sign im sure the limit wuld be 50km or so

            the rule is (and in what world would anyone think the default speed limit is 50km on a highway)

            "speed limit is what you passed last or 50km (I assume) if yet to pass something", ie leaving your driveway.

            the default speed limit you mentioned above doesnt apply if you entered in an on ramp that said 80. until you pass a sign that says otherwise your speed limit is 80. correct me if i am wrong.

            the safest rule to follow is the one i mentioned, cant get a ticket then

    • Ozpit on 21/05/2019 - 11:02

      Crikey, those horse and carts sure could clip along back in those days. Oh… and what’s the secret to longevity?

  • MeesusEff on 20/05/2019 - 16:48
    +1

    Remember to use Waze in 'unknown' territory, at least it gives you an indication of speed limits, which I find to be pretty accurate !

  • Euphemistic on 20/05/2019 - 16:58

    Surely you don’t expect to a speed sign after every intersection, there are too many signs already - having maintained them for council, it is a nightmare keeping on top of them.

    I’ve driven plenty of places and either missed a sign or entered a new road and not known the limit and had to guess. I’ve also had a similar fine, unfamiliar area, assumed 80km/h, but got pinged in a 70 zone. I wrote and said I was from interstate and got let off with a warning.. I’d guess thousands of motorists have been caught in a similar situation.

    There is no harm in trying to get out of it, but I wouldn’t count on it if you are a local.

    Edit: it’s not ‘unjust’ you are expected to travel at a speed that complies with the limit. YOU are responsible to determine what the limit is, you got it wrong.

    • trapper on 20/05/2019 - 17:51
      +1

      Is it too much to ask for the police to place speed cameras near where the speed limit was signposted though, maybe I'm just an idealist… :/

      • Euphemistic on 20/05/2019 - 18:51

        Here in Nsw we’ve got it good, All speed cameras have the speed limit posted, so pretty much coppong a fine from a speed camera is just a ‘stupid tax’. But that doesn’t stop highway patrol from pinging you where there aren’t signs. (Or you’ve just missed one)

      • p1 ama on 20/05/2019 - 20:22
        +1

        No, I think what you're asking for is completely reasonable - there should be a speed limit sign, say, 100m out or so from a camera even without any warning that there's a camera. I'm surprised you got pinged for this in WA, they tend to be the most lenient state (along with TAS) for traffic offences. I've always found VIC to be draconian compared to SA and NSW, as I drive to those states pretty often.

      • Skramit on 21/05/2019 - 09:44

        That's a very reasonable comment.

  • Hithere on 20/05/2019 - 17:52

    You can purchase a decent GPS for under what your fine will be if your car hasn't already got one in it or download an app for your phone for a few dollars.

    • Euphemistic on 20/05/2019 - 18:52

      Won’t work all the time. My maps have at least two local areas where the speed limit is wrong, then if the limit changes (usually downward) you’ll still be out of luck.

  • Cheeper on 20/05/2019 - 18:56
    +1

    Contest it. Many times I have been in the same situation.
    Entering from a side road how are you to know the speed limit?
    You were driving at what you thought was a sensible speed for that road and NOT intentionally speeding.

    • tranter on 20/05/2019 - 19:06
      +1

      Yes, exactly. It's just plain revenue raising otherwise.

  • factor on 20/05/2019 - 19:21
    +3

    Looks like they didn't follow their guidelines of speed signs after intersections:
    https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/BuildingRoads/StandardsTechn…

    • jaimex2 on 21/05/2019 - 10:39
      +1

      OP has strong grounds to contest and even take to court then.

    • trapper on 21/05/2019 - 11:44

      Yeah this is my situation, there was no repeater sign after the intersection.

  • hybridex on 20/05/2019 - 19:47
    -2

    Speeding fines are what are known as "strict liability offences" - which basically means it doesn't matter if you didn't know what the limit is or that you accidentally went over, if you get caught in the act you've committed the offence.

    I doubt you will have much success, but if you do get out of it I want to know how you manage to do it…

    • Bargain80 on 21/05/2019 - 08:57

      yes, if there is a speed limit sign posted and you don't know because you missed the sign.
      If there's no sign at all, how would anyone know the speed limit?

  • berry580 on 20/05/2019 - 21:13

    If from between where you started driving to where you got fined there's no speeding sign in between, i think your chance of winning an appeal is high.

  • serpserpserp on 20/05/2019 - 22:15
    +8

    Can't understand any of this without a MS Paint diagram.

  • rewstar on 20/05/2019 - 22:38
    -1

    Assuming you were coming out of Lancelin Road and got caught in the overtaking lane???
    As this is the area just before where it drops from 110km or 100km to 90km.

    Though I'm pretty sure in does have a speed sign close to the entry of ocean drive maybe around 500m.

    Though they have been saying they are improving that area due to all the crashes out there so it might of changed since I was last out there.

  • TomGum on 20/05/2019 - 23:09
    +1

    This link will help.

    https://www.police.wa.gov.au/Traffic/Cameras/Speed/Speed-lim…

    Drive through the area again with a dash cam and prove them that there is no speed sign after you turned in.

    Send the footage with your response.

    It will eventually go to court if they refuse and once the judge looks at your video, your fine will be dismissed.

    You have a good case to fight. I say dont back down!!

  • muchape on 21/05/2019 - 01:06

    What road did you come out of? also was it the average speed camera or a parked car.

  • UhOh on 21/05/2019 - 04:47

    My driving instructor approximately 5 years ago taught me the exact same thing as what you did. I remember him for always being a real stickler for the rules so I think you might have a chance based on there being no signs. Assuming the highway met the 100kmh vs 50kmh road requirements which I assume it would, unfortunately I can't remember what the actual requirements are any more to list them.

  • whooah1979 on 21/05/2019 - 06:39
    -3

    Fines for speeding, red light and DUI are always justified.

  • dumvamp on 21/05/2019 - 09:25
    +8

    Had exact thing in QLD.

    Turned out onto highway, kilometres from nearest structure, let alone a residential area, got pulled up over 10kms down the road as I was approaching a 90km/h sign and was pulled over for speeding.

    Was fined at 93km/h in a 90 zone.
    Asked the officer where the sign was as we are on a highway, no buildings, no residential area, unsigned it should be 100km/h, he agreed but said "the signs back there".

    Took a trip the next day with my camera, he was right, there was a sign….. On the left side of the intersection I came out of, so completely useless to anyone coming onto the highway from that point as it couldn't be seen.

    Took photos from that point to where I was pulled over, sent them and a letter providing info of where I joined the road with accompanying photos, including gps info and a google maps image over location and drew on where the sign is located.

    Got a letter back about 2 weeks later telling me the fine was reversed and an apology, as I had not deliberately made a mistake and that my understanding of the speed rules was accurate. They also acknowledged that the signing position could be better.

    Less than a month later I was at the exact location again and the sign had been moved 100m up so it could now be seen when entering the highway.

    It the isn't actually a sign, and u believe that all the other rules apply (highway, not residential, that kind of thing) then it's worth writing the letter.

    If u blew past a sign or there was peoples front yards on the side of the road then your out of luck.

    • Skramit on 21/05/2019 - 09:45

      Wow good result. Well done.

    • tranter on 22/05/2019 - 11:51

      How long ago was this? It's unusual to receive a speeding fine in Qld for doing just 3kmh over in a 90 zone. Police officer must have been desperate for some tickets that day.

      • dumvamp on 22/05/2019 - 16:00

        About 6 or 7 years ago I think, i was breaking to come down to 90 (thinking that I was originally in a 100 zone) so I reckon he figured I deserved it as I would have been speeding all the way in his eyes.

        I was also the only other car anywhere close to him (read nearly half hour out of town at midnight), so yeah I guess he probably was a bit desperate.

        But it was all good in the end.

  • plugmeister on 21/05/2019 - 09:26
    +2

    TLDR, well tried to do a quick scroll, but has the actual location of the alleged offence been posted? If not, then how can we help you?

  • Waltervp on 21/05/2019 - 10:36

    If you're lucky they let you off with a warning. They know and we know it's ridiculous to book people for under 10 or 15 km over. But it's government revenue and that's what they have to do, dangerous or not dangerous . The best way to get off a fine is to write a very short letter saying you did not see a speed sign and you'll pay better attention next time , don't go into details as to where abouts etc.

  • Kolkolnut on 21/05/2019 - 10:44

    I was wondering what was the speed limit on the road you were on prior to the turn?

  • giu on 21/05/2019 - 10:56

    https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/spe…

    Where there is no posted speed limit sign, default speed limits apply.

    In NSW there are two default speed limits, default urban speed limit for roads in built-up areas (ie where there are buildings next to the road or where there is street lighting) and a default speed limit for all other roads.

    Default urban speed limit is 50 km/h.
    Default speed limit for all other roads is 100 km/h.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join