Hi all,
I'm thinking to purchase a Corolla Hybrid. My purpose is for commuting to work during peak hours (slow traffic speed).
After considering the depreciation cost of the battery, do you think I can save significant amount of money (e.g. after 10 years) compared to the petrol version?
Thank you for joining the discussion.
Thank you for your reply, great to hear input from expert.
I think I will be driving 10k annually.
How much is the battery replacement cost after 10 years?
Battery doesn't need replacing every 10 years. It'll just be outside of warranty. Most items last a lot longer than their warranty period.
So if I bought one and keep it for 10 years with 10,000km annually, my petrol saving would be $2,336.40.
However I need to spend $1,500 extra on the car's purchase cost, and possibly $3000 battery replacement outside warranty.
Is my math right?
@[Deactivated]: In your scenario, you'd need to have it for at least 6.5yrs to break even in just fuel savings.
But again, hybrid offers more. It'd offer more features (keyless entry/start, dual-zone climate control). As well as the added benefits I mentioned before.
@JimmyF: I never new this. I have a PHEV and think I have been paying full rate (there is no mention of the discount in the renewal summary?)
Mine is $599 PA (guessing the discount is only for 12 month renewals).
Here is the link:
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fe…
@tunzafun001: The PHEV gets the discount too, ICE only rego is between $699.90 and $816.50. So if you're paying $599 then you are getting the $100 discount and guessing you're in rural area too.
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fe…
Its a funny thing as no where on the rego does it say you're getting $100 discount! Its just applied.
@[Deactivated]: You also get the warm fuzzy feeling on knowing you're not burning as much fossil fuel. :)
@[Deactivated]: Received a 25% discount on comprehensive insurance (RAC, $448.52 annual cost - 35k agreed value) for my new Corolla Hybrid ZR, for it being a 'low emissions vehicle'.
@[Deactivated]: IMO, you are saving time as well because you dont need to refuel as often. So not just saving petrol cost but also time.
@[Deactivated]: You kind of are? but the factor is how long will the battery last I know taxi with 500,000 and 800,000 on them battery good car around 6years old.
@[Deactivated]: I bought a Nissan Leaf, it costs me ZERO in fuel, I charge it for FREE on solar every 2-3 days and it plugs into any 240V wall plug if I need to top up.
If you don't have solar then you can set charge timers to charge during night time tariffs which would cost me $1.62 every 2-3 days.
@zuuutoootuuu: Where did you buy it? Bought im corolla hybrid 3 years ago cuz i cant search for decent price full ev, the leaf especially
@hunterhalo: Carsales, they are reasonably priced these days. The quality control on these is great, so quiet, no rattles, has punch when you need to overtake and literally no maintenance costs. It's the best daily commuter I've ever had.
There are a few from 2011-2016, 2013-2016 have much better batteries and don't degrade like 2011-2012.
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/nissan/leaf/?offset=0&setyp…
@zuuutoootuuu: $20k secondhand? You'd hope it was a great commuter, there's a lot of top-shelf cars you can get at that pricepoint secondhand.
$2,500-$3,000 after your $500 rebate for swapping it (recycling it).
Only about 0.65% of batteries have needed to be replaced
What is the replacement rate from 10 years onwards. If someone were to consider buying a second hand vehicle.
@t_c: Entirely weather and usage dependent. Heat kills batteries. Fast charging and fast drainage causes heat.
By heat, Lithium loses its number of charge cycles north of 25C.
So avoid a race car that lives in the hilly sections of North Australia, that only has a rapid charger! Thankfully many apps around today to check battery condition.
Also, many manufacturers have 10yr warranties, but I expect that to change soon in Australia.
I bought 2 Hybrid Camry Battery Packs recently from a wrecking yard for $850 (I have 3 Hybrid Camry's) you only 'need' to replace individual cells that fail, not the complete HV battery.
seriously - every time I tried to buy them from the wreckers they wanted $1500 each ??
@rooster: What they 'want' & what they 'get' are 2 different things! They wanted $1200 each (I usually get them (untested-as is) for around $250 & was desperate as my usual guy hadn't had any for over 6 months. Went there, tested them both(they only had 2 & tested very low voltage) I offered him what I normally pay ($250 each) to which he declined. I walked away. He yelled out $1000 the pair, I said I'd meet him half way $750 to which he declined. I walked away again. He yelled out $850 as I was just about to my car to which I agreed.
So your big hybrid fan?
as they're not braking as much
Could you clarify that bit for me? (I'm a hybrid noob)
It's like engine braking, so as you decelerate, it puts the energy in the battery. As you brake, or decelerate, you're actually charging the battery.
You find when driving hybrids that the brakes are a lot more 'grippy' than standard, just in the design of the system. And when you decelerate, same thing you're almost braking
Ah, gotcha. Didn't know that. Cheers!
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Regen braking similar to F1 KERS
When you drive tesla and foot off the accelerator, your car slows down a lot more by itself.
Takes time to adjust your foot driving habit.
@dcep: The reason it slows down is that the electric motor is used as a generator while braking. The motion of the vehicle is used to drive the generator which then produces electricity. Due to physics the generator creates the electricity by creating a load on the motor which slows you down. A pure electric vehicle can return much of the acceleration energy under decelleration without using brake pads to slow you down. .
It’s like engine braking in a internal combustion car, but better because it enables the storage of excess energy to the battery which a petrol/diesel cannot do.
Sorry another noob question:
Does it mean that Hybrid cars uses 0 fuel, if I drive slowly (under 40) and no heavy acceleration?
@[Deactivated]: Yep. You'll just purely run off battery, if the battery has enough charge stored. Depends on how hard you accelerate though.
Might be worth you doing a 24hr test drive of one. Clear the trip meter at the start and see how you go.
@spackbace: I'm getting excited about this.
Does the boot space much smaller than the normal version?
I'm gonna book for test drive this weekend.
Does the boot space much smaller than the normal version?
Boot space is the same between petrol and hybrid models
@[Deactivated]: There's different types of hybrid. The hybrid in the corolla's case will still use petrol to charge the batteries and power the electric motors. You can't use 0 fuel with this kind of hybrid.
With a plug in hybrid (PHEV), you can theoretically use 0 fuel as you can charge the battery with a cable
There's different types of hybrid. The hybrid in the corolla's case will still use petrol to charge the batteries and power the electric motors. You can't use 0 fuel with this kind of hybrid.
In the scenario he mentioned, it would cut out the petrol engine when coasting/decelerating/braking at low speeds. Driving around a carpark for example is pure battery powered.
@spackbace: It could, but overall it wouldn't use 0 fuel as the battery will need to be charged sooner or later and the only way to charge the battery is by using petrol
and the only way to charge the battery is by using petrol
Not the only way.
And braking, and decelerating ;) Not just from the petrol engine
@noone: I wasn't saying that overall it wouldn't use fuel. It'll still use fuel over the course of a trip, hence why it still has a fuel average.
@spackbace: From what I understand, that's what Bimo was asking regarding using 0 fuel.
Momentarily, any car can use 0 fuel.
I'm just highlighting the difference between Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) and Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) and by that definition, only PHEV can use 0 fuel.
Not the only way.
And braking, and decelerating ;) Not just from the petrol engine
So when you want to go on a trip first you have to push the car up a hill then brake on the way down, repeat a few times
@[Deactivated]: Yes.
We have several Australian built Camry hybrids at work. They are good for about 500m doing up to 15kph on battery alone. I wouldn't describe it as great.
Maybe they've improved in the newer models.
Around Sydney, driving normally I get ~8L/100km (a normal Camry would get ~11L/100km). On country trips sitting on 110-120kph I get 5-6L/100kph. The firm is paying for fuel so I don't tend to drive for economy.
The regenerative braking was a bit hit & miss. One car the transition from regen to mechanical braking was seamless, the other two there was a definite cutover that was quite dangerous as the brakes came on very suddenly and the ABS would kick in. They were unpleasant to drive.
@brad1-8tsi: FWIW the hybrid systems have really gotten better with each generation. In earlier hybrid Camrys, you definitely noticed the petrol engine kick in, now it's just about seamless :)
@spackbace: do you have any idea if there have ever been test with an LPG hybrid? I drive a dedicated LPG and the cost savings are significant.
@[Deactivated]: Your battery only has so much capacity. Also, the hybrid car is heavier than the petrol only version.
@spackbace: Spack bace is right, it's not heavier. It is lighter, I think due to the smaller petrol engine.
Does it mean that Hybrid cars uses 0 fuel, if I drive slowly (under 40) and no heavy acceleration?
Strangely enough, the most fuel-efficient way to drive these vehicles is not to use the electric motor at all! Using the electric motor (without the petrol motor) depletes the battery. The battery then needs to recharge. Regenerative braking is insufficient to recharge the battery on its own, so needs to be supplemented with electricity generated from the petrol motor. The process of petrol —> petrol motor —> inverter —> electricity —> battery storage —> electricity —> electric motor —> acceleration is not as efficient at petrol —> petrol motor —> acceleration. Hence higher efficiency with petrol motor alone. This, I think, is the basis of the pulse & glide technique of hypermiling.
@bcarp: So how does the fuel consumption end up less than an equivalent petrol only model? What you are indicating is that there is no point having a hybrid drive system.
@Euphemistic: Good question. The hybrid system allows the petrol motor to turn off when it would be most inefficient, eg. when idle. So, if you're coasting/gliding, then the petrol motor is not wasting fuel on doing nothing. Same while braking, etc. The regenerative capture of energy during braking also saves some fuel. (And stop when idle also does the same, although that is happening in other vehicles too now.)
If you're trying to hypermile using the pulse & glide technique, then you'd accelerate using the petrol engine at its most fuel-efficient rev speed (pulse), then shut it down completely while pressing the pedal slightly to avoid the mild regenerative braking that Toyota insists when you lift the foot off completely (glide). You could technically do this with a pure petrol motor, but you'd be using that ignition key/button a lot to turn the petrol motor on & off, and it wouldn't be safe. The electric motor allows you to do this safely & easily, as long as you're not in traffic.
@bcarp: "Strangely enough, the most fuel-efficient way to drive these vehicles is not to use the electric motor at all!"
If it is a highway cycle, then the hypermile technique is the most efficient.
On the city cycle, that is what most drivers daily drive consists of, its another story. The fuel saving from switching the engine off at the lights for a minute or two is small compared to the energy required accelerating a car from 0-60km/h. Using the regenerative energy is what increases the efficiency of hybrids to a highway cycle in city traffic.
Using hypermiling in city traffic is not efficient because of the energy loss in braking. Using the hypermile technique and capturing the regenerative energy from braking would be the most efficient for hybrid cars.
@bigticket: Spot on! Of course, if you could predict traffic enough to coast to a stop rather than use the brake, that would be hypermiling champion level! (And greatly annoy all the other drivers around you!)
@bcarp: A hybrid isn’t designed for long distance driving not hypermiling. It is reigned to reduce fuel consumption in stop start traffic in which case the regenerative braking and electric acceleration are more efficient than a petroleum motor alone. Check the highway/urban consumption figures for the same model, you’ll probably find the urban different and the highway quite close.
@Euphemistic: http://beta.redbook.com.au/compare/?ids=SPOT-ITM-509956,SPOT…
Highway - 6.5L/100km vs 4.2L/100km
Even city, the hybrid is rated to 4.7L/100km, which means it shouldn't differ too much.
Personally, if I had bought a Camry hybrid and it got under 6L/100km, I'd think that was damn good for a car of its size
A hybrid isn’t designed for long distance driving not hypermiling.
True. In long distance driving, there is less of an advantage over a regular petrol vehicle compared to its advantage during city driving. But hypermiling is still fun. :) This morning’s Sydney commute at 6:30am gave me 4.8L/100km. A highway stint after my first workplace then gave me 4.4L/100km.
when you decelerate, same thing you're almost braking
Sounds a bit annoying to be honest!
Lol where are you living that petrol is $1.28. Here it is $1.45 minimum
I need to move to Perth
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Or! Move to Perth now to perfectly catch the bottom. The bad times, like the good times, never last.
@freakatronic: If you have a job lined up and a rental, sure. But I wouldn't be buying a house anytime soon!
Can you advise what is the street price of Corolla Ascent Sport Hybrid model? Should I buy 2nd hand?
Does hybrid have less moving parts? I thought being hybrid means it has a normal (smaller) petrol engine plus an electric motor?
You are correct. Hybrid is more complicated than a normal car. Fully electric is much simpler. That being said I don't think anything has had many technical issues with recent hybrids.
The way I see it, hybrid has been around longer than eV.
@[Deactivated]: That's not true. Pure electric vehicles have been around longer especially for things like milk delivery trucks, post delivery vans etc. In fact the very first cars were based on electric motors, not combustion engines.
I'm not a fan of hybrids because not only will it take you 6.5 years to recoup any savings while possibly having more costly repairs as per above (so not saving considerable money really), but also consider the driving experience as well. They just don't have the same feel and power availability. I had a hybrid Camry for quite a while and yes it's solid, comfortable and decently built, but just has no soul and no driving enjoyment at all.
Maybe that's not important to you though and you just need an A to B commute vehicle. To each their own I suppose. Test drive one before you commit.
Does hybrid have less moving parts?
Sorry, wrong wording I think. Hybrid cars don't have alternators or starter motors, the electric engine takes over those roles
Don't forget the Corolla hybrid requires premium unleaded fuel. Here it costs about 10% extra.
No it doesn't. Old one did yes, as does new hybrid Camry, but not the new model Corolla hybrid :)
That's a welcome change. I bet many customers were keen to save money on fuel only to realize they would be paying more per litre without any good reason.
@Jugganautx: Isn't premium fuel is more efficient? So the money spent on higher price is saved on engine lifespan and fuel efficiency?
https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/fuel-efficiency-showdown…
@[Deactivated]: Did you even read the numbers in the article you linked?
Running on PULP was 3.9% more efficient, but the fuel was 9.2% more expensive that regular.
@[Deactivated]: @Bimo
98 cleans engine
Fuel can clean the fuel lines, the injectors and the fuel ports/valves, as that is all it touches. Oil cleans most of your engine (excluding cooling, fuel and air paths).
@Jugganautx
Might as well burn your money lol
Bimo is, at ~20c per litre.
@Bimo
Isn't premium fuel is more efficient?
Nope. Less. Octane is a rating of how easy a fuel detonates. Higher ratings mean more stable fuel and less energy. Premium fuels are also watered down with detergents as a marketing gimmick (fuel is already an excellent solvent). Higher octane motors can develop more power and/or produce less pollution (but generally use more fuel) as more fuel stability allows tighter engine timing.
So the money spent on higher price is saved on engine lifespan?
Changing your oil every 6 months/5,000km will help far more. Annual services used to include a cap full of metho or a fuel system cleaner, which depending on your km/yr, could be cheaper or more expensive than running premium.
Something a lovely colleague of mine setup
Your colleague doesn't factor in the $100/yr saving on rego (in vic).
Course not, being in WA ;)
Oh hai! Toyota salesperson here.
Ok let's break it down.
Hybrid - 4.2L/100km
Petrol - 6.0L/100km
Something a lovely colleague of mine setup. Savings calculated on fuel @ $1.298/L
Hybrid demands a $1,500 premium over petrol. In the Corolla Ascent Sport, you also get keyless entry/start and dual-zone climate control, over the petrol model, for your $1500.
Now you're absolutely in the best case for hybrid, with constant braking/decelerating. Sitting in traffic at idle, you'll just be running on battery, not using fuel.
Hybrid has less moving parts, less parts that need maintenance. Servicing won't cost you any extra over the lifetime of the car. Battery has a 10yr warranty on it, though the return rate for hybrid batteries is very low. Taxi drivers report their brake pads last longer, as they're not braking as much and the energy goes back into the battery to charge it.