Rise in Racism on OzBargain

A lot of us have been personally or non-personally impacted by recent events.

There are also a number of those not impacted, including a incumbent senator, who are currently quite active on social media.

It appears OzBargain has in recent days also become a commenting platform for some of those to spread their views. It would also appear that the use of racist and religious comments intended to cause offence are not clearly defined in the commenting guidelines.

Need I remind OzBargain Moderator(s), that racist conduct is unlawful(legislation.vic.gov.au) and falls under a combination of Commonwealth and State legislation(humanrights.gov.au), and OzBargain is surely aware the responsibility they hold in the event that such posts are published on this website.

I now call upon the OzBargain Moderator(s) to:

  1. Publicly confirm that OzBargain, and all Moderator(s), condemn racial or religious motivated posts that are intended to ridicule, humilate or spread hatred and will actively and timely remove those posts; and
  2. Update the commenting Guidelines to include a specific subheading for Racism and Religion regarding comments of this nature so there are clear guidelines going forward.

Mod: Resolved

closed Comments

  • Publicly confirm that OzBargain, and all Moderator(s), condemn racial or religious motivated posts that are intended to ridicule, humilate or spread hatred and will actively and timely remove those posts; and

    Confirm as we've been doing for numerous years.

    Commenting Guidelines
    Help
    Acting Respecfully

    I think what people have issue with is when they land on a page and see a comment that doesn't meet the guidelines and expect it to be gone before they got there. This is unrealistic as we have no mechanism of detecting shit comments before they are made and rely on people reporting the comment (use the report link). We did have half of our staff online from Saturday throughout Sunday morning monitoring some deals/threads we thought were hotspots and engaged to remove comments and ban users as fast as possible. However we also like to sleep from time to time.

    Update the commenting Guidelines to include a specific subheading for Racism and Religion regarding comments of this nature so there are clear guidelines going forward.

    Confirm we'll add clarity to that.

      • Yes, when we update the guidelines, we will announce it in site and guidelines updates as well as my monthly stats/news post.

        Again, I'll make the point that it's better to discuss and get quality guidelines then rushing out and throwing something out as fast as possible. Happy to hear your suggestions to add to the commenting guidelines.

        • Thank you. That is the first confirmation I have received since asking.

        • +3

          Neil we know you and the mods are good people and this is a generally civil forum. And yes, I'm well aware there are PR reasons for a lot of what you do, but god I wish you'd stop kowtowing (this isn't cultural appropriation, I'm Chinese, blah blah blah) to these ridiculously over-wrought demands from someone who has nothing to do but stick their noses in other people's business.

          • @HighAndDry: Seeking revision of the commenting guidelines to provide further clarity is over-wrought is it?

          • @HighAndDry:

            Neil we know you and the mods are good people

            LOL, sure sure.

            And yes, I'm well aware there are PR reasons for a lot of what you do, but god I wish you'd stop kowtowing (this isn't cultural appropriation, I'm Chinese, blah blah blah) to these ridiculously over-wrought demands from someone who has nothing to do but stick their noses in other people's business.

            It's a community site so it would be in our best interests to listen to the community then discuss internally, and roll out any changes if warranted. This is for features, guidelines, bugs etc and has always been how we do things. You know otherwise we become Whirlpool dictators (sarcasm).

            EDIT: Actually the Whirlpool mods put up a post recently about the kind of stuff they have to deal with.

            • @neil: Hahahahah nah, I won't begrudge you guys doing whatever you think is in the best interests of the site. Its a bargain site after all, not a milk crate on a street corner.

              Though I'll note, community-wise, the negs might be a good reflection of that.

              • @HighAndDry: Going by your comment history, I'm not sure you're the best person to discuss negs :)

                • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: My comments don't usually care about what the community thinks. This comment thread refers to it.

                  Or rather, my comment history should make me intimately familiar with negs.

    • Yeah, I promise I won't post anything to humilate anyone as soon as I figure out what that means…

      This is all a storm in a teacup. There's no way comments on a bargain site has any real life relevant to recent events.

      • -4

        There's no way comments on a bargain site has any real life relevant to recent events.

        Straw man argument.

        I merely identified something lacking in the commenting guidelines that ought to be addressed. It would assist Moderators in any event as it would provide clarity.

        • Mods have unfettered discretion already - this is a private forum. They can pull numbers out of a hat and delete comments randomly if they wanted to.

          People know racism is bad, you virtue-signalling [profanity], get off your bloody high horse.

          • -1

            @HighAndDry: Do you know what a straw man is?

            Because I didn't say anything even relevant to what you just posted.

            • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Do you know what "disingenuous" means? Com'on. You're trying to pretend your post has nothing to do with recent events? Yah. Sure. You have a bridge to sell me as well?

              To be clear: There are already civility guidelines. Being racist is being uncivil. Therefore it's already covered. Did you need more clarity? Want me to spell out c-i-v-i-l-i-t-y for you too?

              • +1

                @HighAndDry:

                Want me to spell out c-i-v-i-l-i-t-y for you too?

                I bet you triple checked your spelling on that one before you hit post comment, it would have been funny if you made a typo!

            • +2

              @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I do and I fail to see the value in it, if you are using it for its intended purpose.

              Why don't you rewrite all the rules and then we can vote on them one by one.

              Pay for the rebuild of the website and all the legal disclosure required and then start looking for a way of making money to cover the cost of the policing.

              • @Toons: Just for clarity: Adding to the guidelines won't garner any further cost to OzBargain nor do we have to rebuild the website. We discuss guidelines and features every day and have changed the guidelines numerous times over the past 13 years.

                • +1

                  @neil: What is being asked for is a legal declaration and by proxy the same of the members.

                  Should you comply to the demand then I would be seeking advice from a lawyer since the OP has posted so many regulations.

                  Which were someone takes offence to could end up in you being shut down, while the case is looked into which is something none of us want.

                  • @Toons: I say this respectfully when I say that's total nonsense.

                    • @neil: Neil, I understand your role here but surely even you can see this thread most of this page which has been cancelled out for negative votes.

                      As far as legal action the very fist statement made under racial vilification act is to seek legal advice (which is mentioned in OP's opening submission) once that track has started there is no pleading the 5th should they continue respectfully

          • @HighAndDry:

            They can pull numbers out of a hat and delete comments randomly if they wanted to.

            Just to be clear, we don't, which is why we have guidelines so all moderators can act in a similar way. If we have it written in the guidelines with clarity, we have to have less arguments in TWAM by the offenders.

            People know racism is bad, you virtue-signalling [profanity], get off your bloody high horse.

            Let's be respectful in our discussion here. Thanks.

            • @neil: I censored myself with the [profanity] (as in I literally typed [ profanity ]) - it wasn't an actual insult there.

              Though I guess there's a (purely unintentional) lesson about the foibles of censorship in there somewhere.

              (Also, noted, will keep my gloves on.)

  • +11

    I'm just here for the bargains.

    • +5

      Then why are you in the forum section? :p

      • +1

        The pursuit of bargains cannot merely be confined to the deals section.

      • Why is anyone ever in the forum section?

        • Not for threads like this one. In case you were wondering.

  • You agree that you are responsible for your own communications and for any consequences thereof. Your use of the Service is subject to your acceptance of and compliance with the Agreement. You agree that you will use the Service in compliance with all applicable local, state, national, and international laws, rules and regulations, including any laws regarding the transmission of technical data exported from your country of residence. - Source

    Anyone who should be breaking these terms, should deactivate their account immediately (via My Account > Edit > Account > Account Management > Deactivate account.)

    • If you see a racial/inappropriate comment, please click report under the message, and a moderator may moderate if deemed necessary.
    • If you would like to censor the internet, please install the great firewall of China.
    • -5

      The Law is clear. OzBargain.com.au is the publisher in the eyes of the law.

      • Oh you're a lawyer too now are you? Want to cite the specific Act and section that says that?

        • -1

          I'm well aware you pretend to be.

          I won't debate legal issues with you when there is significant commentary, legislation and case law relevant.

          • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I've never claimed to be a lawyer, nor would I.

            when there is significant commentary, legislation and case law relevant.

            Sure there is. "Put up or shut up."

            • @HighAndDry: It has already argued in several matters, and the goal posts have been established. There is a more recent case but I'm not wasting further time with you when you only intend to move things offtrack.

              http://www6.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FCA/…

              http://www6.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/cons…

              OzBargain has a responsibility to remove offending comments. If you disagree, ask a moderator or Neil if they think you're right.

              • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: http://www6.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FCA/…

                You do have comprehension problems! It explains so much!

                Just to be clear, the First Respondent here is the Builders Collective (basically the "forum"), and what does the case say?

                ORDERS that the proceeding against the first respondent be dismissed and that the applicant pay the expenses properly incurred by the first respondent in connection with the proceeding.

                And:

                The case against the Collective will be dismissed with costs.

                So no, the forum is not liable, and even had costs ordered in its favour.

                Your second link is for "Vicarious liability". Luckily, it's traversed in the reasons in your first link:

                For the sake of completeness I should add that although vicarious liability provided by s 18E was referred to, I cannot see that the second respondent was an agent of the Collective


                Anything else? Personally I'd suggest you stop digging.

                • @HighAndDry: Goalposts.

                  I'd rather OzBargain not be the first Australian example.

                  As you disagree, take it up with a moderator :) Ask what they think.

                  • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Your own goalposts say you swung and missed. But sure, keep digging.

                  • +1

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                    I'd rather OzBargain not be the first Australian example.

                    While not in the racism sense, Whirlpool has been the subject of a couple of court cases, 1 where they won and another where the other party pulled out (they had been informed it wasn't a strong case).

                    https://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/wcs_v_wp
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2Clix_Software

                    Safe to say it would take a long and lengthy battle to bring about a case against an Australia online forum, and win.

                    It would basically take federal political involvement, which Scott Morrison is trying to do now with Social Media (I wonder if online forums will come under the same banner).

  • This forum topic is not published.
    Rise in Racism on OzBargain and Lack of Timely Response from Moderator(s) (Use Talk with a Moderator)

    Yet you think they'll allow this post? lol

    I now call upon the OzBargain Moderator(s) to:

    You can't just simply ask, or request?

    • -2

      Yet you think they'll allow this post? lol

      I did ask before reposting this. Albeit with certain paragraphs removed. The moderator did not object.

      You can't just simply ask, or request?

      I have asked 3 times.

      • I have asked 3 times.

        "No means no" zeggie. Jeez. Do we need the Mods to implement a mandatory consent course before people can comment on the forums too?

  • +3

    Here we go, [grabs.popcorn].

  • +3

    I now call upon the OzBargain Moderator(s) to

    Hahaahahahahaha.

    That is all.

  • +1

    I now call on you (and everyone else) - to post some decent deals.
    Which is what this site is about - not trying to establish social justice warrior-ship credentials.

    • -1

      Site discussion and guidelines are relevant.

      Play the ball not the man.

      • +2

        Or just quit virtue signalling altogether.

  • +2

    You are entering the courtroom of Judge Judith Sheindlin.
    The people are real.
    The cases are real.
    The rulings are FINAL.

    • +1

      Jerry Jerry Jerry

      Oh wait

    • +2

      Yes, but we don't pay you after your case appears here.

      • +1

        The audience pays in upvotes! And what could be better?

  • +8

    This thread makes me want to go back and read threads about not having motor vehicle insurance or chasing the landlord for lightning strikes.

  • +2

    Oh, of course, we have to pretend that people immigrating from from wildly differing cultures wasn't done so that labour costs remain low for the ruling class or you're a racist.

    Make sure you call anyone that says anything else a racist so that people get outraged and can't think properly.

    • Immigration of skilled migrants contributes to economic growth for the nation as a whole. "The ruling class" - what rubbish. Employers sometimes find they don't have enough skills labour they need, and by attracting skilled migrants from elsewhere in the world it's a win-win for everyone. No need to inject anti-immigration sentiment in here.

    • 'Nazi' seems to be the current label of choice to shut down discussion.

  • +2

    Ozbargain have a hide function. Stop whinging and use it.

    • But whinging is a part of OzB culture! Stop oppressing zeggie! Are you trying to ridicule and humilate them? Mods! Mods!

  • +5

    profile pic checks out

  • +3

    Cool story bro!

  • +1

    Didn't we go through this last year with (minority groups) and it was actually determined that unless it's been shared openly that 99% of comments were off the cuff and in no way related to an actual group of people in regard to orientation, preference, race or religion, the forum doesn't require to declare any of that in half the cases you don't know if they are male or female

    It's up to the user to share if choosing to do so, otherwise it was a potentially a mocking comment that hits as often as you win the lotto

    More regulations are a minefield and without prior knowledge not just for the participants but the moderators too

    Without providing all that information how can the mods know it's actually a motivated comment.

    • -3

      That's why an update to the commenting guidelines would assist. Make is clear to mods and posters what is acceptable.

      I've been told not to repost a specific comment someone made (for obvious reasons) but it took 4 hours for a decision to be made to remove that comment when it clearly mocked that person's race. Not 4 hours for the post to be reported and actioned, 4 hours for a decision to remove or not.

      • +1

        How do you know it took 4 hours for a decision?

        • +1

          Exactly this is all cloak and dagger where a couple of people know the story, yet won't provide the details so we have something called CONTEXT to work with.

          This is what failed last time this was attempted nothing could be disclosed, so nobody other than a couple of people knew the story.

          yes I see comments that are not right to me, but I weigh up how much that person actually knows and it's next to nothing.

        • +1

          Because I asked why it took 4 hours, and that was the answer I was given by a moderator.

          • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Did you know that torture is an ineffective interrogation technique because the subject tends to say whatever they think will make it stop?

            • @HighAndDry: Do you have a personal issue with me? If so, PM. Or speak to a mod.

              • @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: No, nothing personal. I do have issues with the opinions and views in your comments here, which is why I'm replying to them.

                I literally don't know anything about you, and I don't care to. Certainly don't tell me your race or religion, because believe me, any ridicule or humiliation is to do with your opinions only and nothing else.

                • @HighAndDry: If you have an issue that I requested review and revisions to the commenting guidelines, and neil confirmed there would be review and revisions to the commenting guidelines then I'd probably suggest you whinge to somebody. But please, don't make it me.

              • +1

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: He just loves this shit, it's nothing personal.

                • @John Kimble: You get me =D

                  • @HighAndDry: Yeah, I've seen you a few times…loitering…although I'm guilty of that also…haha

                    • +1

                      @John Kimble: I will say though, this isn't just another distraction - freedom of speech (and conflating speech with actions which cause actual harm) and the discussions around that are a point of interest to me and so I do get a tad more invested. It doesn't mean I can't have fun with it, and it really is nothing personal though, to OP or anyone else I might reply to.

      • +2

        Damn those mods and their real lives, their need to eat, sleep and work is beyond a joke.
        Anything could have happened in those four hours, ANYTHING!

        • +5

          We're striving to hit Dominos delivery times. Don't get your moderation answer on time, get your pizza delivered for free.

          • +1

            @neil: You're so sassy neil I love it!

        • I agree, but the post in reply to the offending post was removed within 5 minutes of it being reported. The original post took a lot longer.

          • +1

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Sometimes I finish taking a crap in 5 mins, sometimes I take longer.

            Not everything is intentional.

  • +7

    This thread offends me.

  • +1

    Maybe the OP that started this thread was knocked back for a mods. job?

  • +2

    I now call upon the OzBargain Moderator(s)

    Who do you think you are?

  • -3

    Just wanted to say that your freedom of speech does not include you insulting my race & religion. The buck stops there.

    • +3

      your freedom of speech

      You mean, OUR freedom of speech.

    • +1

      Actually that's not correct, just as you can insult my race and my religion too, though the second would be quite a feat, seeing as I'm not really religious. But feel free to wail on atheists or agnostics I guess.

      I absolutely condemn anything which incites violence. Or causes actual harm. But, and I'm sorry (and I'm sincere in my apology), the law isn't there to protect your feelings and shouldn't be. I'm sorry that the benefits and positives associated with freedom of speech will mean that others might abuse these rights to insult your race or religion. I'm sorry if this right, and my support of them, mean that your feelings are hurt.

      But - and this is my personal opinion, though not without a lot of support from people far wiser than I - freedom of speech, to the extent of, yes, including even insults, is an important right and one that shouldn't be subservient to protecting people's feelings.

      • +1

        So are you telling me you have the right to insult my race and religion and that falls under your freedom of speech?

        • I could be wrong so more knowledgeable can correct me.

          Australia - no freedom of speech enshrined into constitution. It has been law and adjusted over time. Recently, they have been trying to bring in, or have already brought in, "hate speech" laws.

          In the US, free speech is part of the 1st Amendment of their constitution so cannot really be touched.
          Calls to violence or inciting violence is not protected.

          US = Freedom of speech
          Australia = not quite so

          If you ask me, the US has got it right (amazing considering it was written centuries ago). There should always be freedom of speech (except for calls to violence, and there should be recourse for defamation etc).

          Stopping speech is dangerous and leads to speech police and eventually thought police.

          One should have the right to insult you/your religion/your race/your car/your hair etc..(again, as long as its not defamatory or calling for violence against you).
          It is up to you, whether you choose to take it as an insult.

          • @mick123: Racial discrimination legislation has existed for over 40 years.

            Your last paragraph is particularly disturbing.

      • An "insult" is far different than a "racial insult".

    • Any freedom that only extends to the inoffensive or generally acceptable is no real freedom at all.
      It is only when it protects stuff that upset people that the freedom is necessary.
      My religion is currently being mocked at sneered at by a wildly successful Broadway musical that has won awards and made millions. Apparently it is socially acceptable to laugh at some religions…
      I won't support it, but I won't call for it to be banned either.
      My freedom to express my views depends on my willingness to allow others the freedom to criticise those same views.

  • +2

    How funny is PC Principal in South Park

    • All this oppression of minorities makes me want crush puss

  • +2

    It appears OzBargain has in recent days also become a commenting platform for some of those to spread their views. It would also appear that the use of racist and religious comments intended to cause offence are not clearly defined in the commenting guidelines.

    Can you please provide some substantive evidence that what you are claiming is in fact occurring on this site? I have not seen any material from community members that would bolster your viewpoint on this issue (although I will admit I am not checking for bargains every single hour of the day).

    We all are sympathizing with those affected directly and in-directly with the events in Christchurch last weekend but to bring the general populations wave of sentiment and outcry of those terrible events onto Ozbargain without any evidence except your own commentary comes across, from my perspective, as someone trying to connect two unrelated social dialogues together.

    Clearly the shootings have impacted you and moved you to take what action you can to help society change for the better, but is this bargains website really the platform for your reform push? I do not see anything that shows Ozbargain as a platform for distasteful views, prove me wrong OP.

    • I have been asked not to link those comments by a moderator. One comment by a particular poster still exists if you search for it.

      So unfortunately I can't respond as I would like to, or it would likely be deleted.

      • If the moderators have specifically asked you not to post examples then I cannot press that point any further.

        One comment by a particular poster still exists if you search for it.

        Does that in itself not mean the moderators are doing their job and removing racist and anti-religious comments if there is only a single comment still out in the wild?

        OP I feel like this should not of been a forum post and, if anything, a simple message to one of the moderation staff to remove the offensive posts that have impacted you would of been sufficient.

        • Alas, I don't believe I can post the contents of the Talk with A Moderator discussion considering the first Forum post was unpublished as I quoted from it. So once again not sure how I can answer you there unfortunately.

          Had that discussion been resolved privately I would not have posted this redacted Forum post.

  • Yeah Nah.. terms such as "racist" or "nazi" have pretty much zero meaning these days.

    When everything is racist, then nothing is racist.

  • OK, the OP has his answer and the discussion is all over the place. Resolved.

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