Who Should Pay for Plumber's Tool Broken during The Process of Unblocking Drain?

L19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 01:20
Last edited 20/02/2019 - 16:24

I called a plumber to unblock a drain. He quoted hourly rate $95 plus gst.

He sent a team of 2 men.

Took 1 hour to unblock the drain but the orger (a whirlpool shape long tool) got stuck in the pipe. Took another hour to pull the orger out.

The invoice detailing:
unblock drain $280, plus
1.5 hourly rate for 2 men = $285, plus
Broken orger $120
Plus GST,
Total $753.50

He explained the $280 to unblock drain covered the first hour labour (in this case 1/2 hour because he sent 2 men). So I have to pay extra 1.5 hours for 2 men labour. And the orger was broken because the block was too stubborn and difficult to unblock, so I have to pay for the damaged tool.

Is it normal practice that a plumber charge customer for tool damaged during the process of unblocking drain? What would be the reasonable costs to unblock a drain?

I am now so grateful that the lawn mower guy didn't ask me to pay for his damaged mower when his mower broken down on my backyard.

Any advice from plumber or tradies would much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Thank you all for your prompt response and advice. I really appreciate it.

Updated:

After I sent the email, he called to explain he didn't overcharge me. The charge for broken auger or tools is a normal practice for all tradies. However, in order to keep me happy, he would refund the auger charge. At the end, he told me not to contact him again, which I will be happily obliged.

Just like to thank you all for the advice and views from different angles. If not for your encouragement, I would not have the strength to ask for a refund.

Thank you all.

Home & Garden Plumber

Comments

  • garetz on 19/02/2019 - 02:57
    +124

    Tools suffer wear and tear, its the plumbers responsibility to repair and replace their tools of trade, it has nothing to do with you. I would say you should be paying for 1 hour for 1 man, as the job only required one person to complete it. You never asked 2 people to be sent out to do the job that could of easily been done by 1.

    In this situation i would offer to pay for the agreed upon amount of $280 plus gst. Otherwise you need to take them to vcat or equivalent in your state. Sounds like they are trying to scam you. Just for reference, you are paying for a job to be done, the plumber could sent 100 people, its irrelevant, Only pay the agreed upon amount - which after rereading your post should be $95 x 1.5 hours = total $142.50 plus gst

    • WreckTangle on 19/02/2019 - 05:39
      +23

      I agree with this, except maybe you should pay the $142 and let THEM take you to VCAT

    • apsilon on 19/02/2019 - 06:21
      +12

      Agree with this. You pay for the job, not their choices or tools (which they probably claim against tax anyway). If they decide to send more people than required and then stuff up and spend more time than required that's their problem, not yours.

      Don't suppose you have a quote in writing?

      • Msquared on 21/02/2019 - 00:45
        +1

        On one hand, I think sometimes it's appropriate to charge the client for all the time spent, since each situation is different and sometimes the client's site contributes to the job taking longer than expected. On the other, if the tradie made an error in judgement and that caused the job to take longer, then they should own that and not charge the client.

        As far as the auger, though, I think that the tradie is solely responsible for the repair, maintenance, handling, and replacement of his/her own tools.

    • esty on 19/02/2019 - 12:55
      +3

      agreed.

      And why are they quoting you for "unblocking drain" and then the hourly rate.

      • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 13:07

        Because the unblocking drain only covers first hour labour. (according to the plumber's explanation)

        • xuqi on 19/02/2019 - 18:12
          +15

          You've got yourself 1 dodgy plumber there….

        • abuch47 on 19/02/2019 - 19:45
          +2

          Id talk to them about the price but tool purchase is an overhead that should be incorporated into their hourly rate.

  • bazzato on 19/02/2019 - 05:14
    +39

    I don't think you should have to pay for the auger. It would have already been used many times and just because it broke during your job doesn't mean you are responsible. the hourly rate works out horrendous with the way they are charging.

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 08:15
      +17

      the hourly rate works out horrendous with the way they are charging.

      And charging $280 for the first hour (in this case 1/2 hour x2Men), when quoted on phone as $95 per hour, is dishonest and unreasonable.

      • knk on 20/02/2019 - 13:17
        +1

        Yeah you'd want to be pretty clear about sending 2 men.

        I'd be paying the hourly rate, for 1 man.

    • Almost Banned on 19/02/2019 - 10:21
      +7

      I plussed you for the answer AND the spelling!

      • rompastompa on 19/02/2019 - 11:10
        +6

        I negged you for the word plussed ;)

        Oh wait.. I just used negged.. I can't neg myself, so I won't neg you.. we're even.

    • stumo on 19/02/2019 - 12:57
      +34

      Yes and the augers only have a certain lifetime anyway, so the plumber has to wear the cost of replacing them. And the plumber should also wear the cost of having one break and having to extract the broken one, which is the whole reason why plumbers replace them at regular intervals. OP is being scammed on so many fronts here:

      1. Being scammed on the hourly rate because the plumber sent an apprentice to tag along.

      2. Being scammed for the cost of a brand new Auger.

      3. Being charged the labour to extract the broken Auger.

      • ufsta on 19/02/2019 - 19:49
        +6

        Doesnt matter if the auger was brand new. If it's lost or damaged, that is the tradies problem. When I lose a tool on site I don't go to the builder or foreman and and say "hey you guys owe me a new impact driver cause my one burnt out"

  • Forfiet on 19/02/2019 - 05:20
    +5

    Wear and tear…. You didn't exactly rush out there and and break it for him? He could of done something stupid or forced the tool…

  • whooah1979 on 19/02/2019 - 05:45
    +13

    The invoice detailing:
    unblock drain $280, plus
    1.5 hourly rate for 2 men = $285, plus
    Broken orger $120
    Plus GST,
    Total $753.50

    Pay for the first hour plus GST. Don't pay for the 1.5 or the tool.

    If the business continues to hassle you for payment then advise them that you may post on ozbargain about your service experience.

  • GangGang on 19/02/2019 - 06:11
    +6

    What a joke. I would be furious if they mentioned a broken tool.

    Once the job is complete, he will need a negative review for potential future customers. That's sad.

  • whooah1979 on 19/02/2019 - 06:16
    +3

    pull the orger out

    That would be something to see.

    It's called an auger.

    • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 11:00
      +13

      Thanks. I will spell "auger" in my letter to fair trading. "orger" was the spelling on the invoice. I have no clue what's the name of tool.

      • tomsco on 19/02/2019 - 11:27
        +17

        "orger" was the spelling on the invoice.

        Oh geez. And how many times a week would they use an auger…

        • bdl on 19/02/2019 - 11:48
          +8

          If they used an 'auger' instead of an 'orger', the 'auger' probably wouldn't've broken :)

      • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 12:04
        +11

        Wow. Their spelling matches their plumbing skills.

      • syousef on 19/02/2019 - 23:21
        +9

        There's your problem. Don't hire an Ogre to do your plumbing.

        • Kangal on 22/02/2019 - 00:35
          +1

          The plumbers must be like onions…. they have layers of ripping off customers and bringing a tear to their eyes

    • mreddie on 19/02/2019 - 21:53

      bahahhahahah

  • mskeggs on 19/02/2019 - 06:31
    +11

    I am not a plumber.
    The augers work by cutting though the blockage with a steel point on the end of a long spring. You can slowly advance the auger and proceed slowly, or you can jam it in and risk it getting caught.
    If you get it caught very thoroughly, and kept trying to “power” your way to get it unstuck, then you could break the tool or spring.
    Getting it out then would be very hard, and require digging down to the pipe.

    Assuming the pipe was draining recently (I.e not some abandoned drain that had years to fill with roots) then the material you are clearing is pretty thin and soft, like fine twigs. Maybe if your kid flushed a toy car or dinosaur it might be trickier, but getting the auger stuck seems a bit careless.

    It sounds like your guys weren’t very good at their job.

    If you have the option in future, get a plumber with a Jetta, a tool that uses high pressure water to cut, and would be unlikely to block.

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 08:23
      +4

      You can slowly advance the auger and proceed slowly, or you can jam it in and risk it getting caught.
      It sounds like your guys weren’t very good at their job.

      Seeing as they charge $280 for 'unblock drain' item on the bill, it's likely they rushed it, trying to cash in on a quick $280 for potentially very quick unblock. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys break augers all the time, in rushing the unblock, then charge replacement cost to customers (which is absolutely wrong and dishonest IMO).
      There is also the aspect, of paying them for their fxckup, ie. They caused the auger to get stuck, then billed customer for the time taken to fix the tradies fxckup.

    • stumo on 19/02/2019 - 13:01
      +3

      To get out a broken auger they will first try to run a second auger to grab the broken one. Digging up pipes is the last resort.

      If I was OP I would ask to see the broken auger. The way this job has been going I wouldn't be surprised if the broken auger is still in their pipe lol.

      • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 13:11

        They did pull out the broken auger. Hence the charge.

  • try2bhelpful on 19/02/2019 - 07:13
    +5

    My 2c They broke the tool they are trying it on. He sent the two guys, not your fault. An hourly rate should be for the time not the number of people. Anyone getting a plumber in should get a maximum up front estimate in an email before starting.

    This seems to be another post by a new user who hasn’t responded to the posts.

    • havebeerbelywillsumo on 19/02/2019 - 11:13
      +3

      Agree 100% with the sentiment "This seems to be another post by a new user who hasn’t responded to the posts.", annoys me also, esp where members have posted detailed replies.

      OP has responded, after you posted, which is excellent.

      No pay on tool replacement/repair, that is a business cost that should be built into hourly rate for any business.

      Asking is a sign of a dubious operator IMO. OP, you really should name them so members can avoid.

  • Gotchas on 19/02/2019 - 08:07
    +24

    Agree to pay for the auger after they pay for your new drive way due to the wear and tear caused by them from walking on it

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 14:30

      And the hole in it.

  • RM on 19/02/2019 - 08:21
    +19

    So if his car broke down while coming or going back from your place, would he charge you for that too?

  • thatonethere on 19/02/2019 - 08:53
    +1

    I'd check the contract. I've had a couple of drain unblockers and they had a written clause in their quote (and they reminded me verbally) that there was a charge for a stuck snake. If not - then you probably have a VCAT or similar case.

    If you didn't have the broken tool charge it is similar to what I've paid in the past.

    I DIY now that i know where all the sewer line access points are in my yard.

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 09:12
      +11

      They can write what they like in their contract but that doesn't make it enforceable.

      In this instance, the clause is downright laughable in court.

  • Hithere on 19/02/2019 - 08:56
    +10

    Wear and tear of a tradies tools should be factored in to their hourly rate. They break it they pay to replace it.

    Not your problem OP

  • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 09:03
    +19

    Not you!

    The invoice detailing:
    unblock drain $280, plus
    1.5 hourly rate for 2 men = $285, plus
    Broken orger $120
    Plus GST
    Total $753.50 $280

    You don't pay someone their hourly rate and pay them for a job. You're paying twice.

    Besides, that hourly rate is ridiculous to begin with, it is almost $100/hr.

    Retain your original invoice and ask them which one they want paid, the $280 or the $285. Do not return this invoice because it is evidence of dodgy billing.

    • Cletus vandamme on 19/02/2019 - 13:40
      +1

      Yep that's exactly what I would pay, and did when a plumber done practically the same work. Although I believe I payed around $200ish.

    • boostpak on 22/02/2019 - 08:33
      -1

      and this is why tradies in australia drive around in brand spanking new top of the line utes with jetski's while in other countries tradies are just average and people in specialised fields are rich.

  • HighAndDry on 19/02/2019 - 09:04
    +5

    Sounds like they spent 2 hrs, so 2 x 95 = $190 + GST = $209? That'd be a fair price imo.

    • Krankite on 19/02/2019 - 12:07
      +1

      I've normally been charged a cost for the use of an auger as opposed to hand tools. This would bring it up to the $280 Quoted, I've never heard of being charged for a breakage or two people being sent for a blocked pipe.

    • upsidedownlemon on 19/02/2019 - 13:58
      +1

      Pretty sure you have to quote inclusive of GST - right?

      • HighAndDry on 19/02/2019 - 14:09
        +1

        You have to bill inclusive of GST, and I'm pretty sure for a lot of advertising you have to include GST, but there aren't really any regulations on how you can quote someone a price.

        • upsidedownlemon on 19/02/2019 - 16:37

          Ah makes sense. regardless OP is still getting screwed

  • onetwothreefour on 19/02/2019 - 09:09
    +2

    Why did they need 2 people? It only takes 1 to use the auger doesn't it?

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 09:15
      +1

      Let's give the contractor the benefit of doubt and imagine they used a two man auger (they do exist).

      Still a very dodgy service provider.

  • Seraphin7 on 19/02/2019 - 09:29
    +2

    Firstly on the broken tool … dreaming! That's the plumber's responsibility all day, every day.

    On the labour, your post seems to suggest there were 2 blokes there for 2 hours, so 4 hours in total. Therefore it's $380 + GST.

    • HighAndDry on 19/02/2019 - 10:32
      +1

      there were 2 blokes there for 2 hours, so 4 hours in total

      This might be reasonable too, depending on how the job was quoted. Was it "$95 per person per hour, and it'll probably need two people", or just "Yeah that'll be $95 per hour"?

      • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 10:51

        "yeah, that will be $95 per hour plus gst". It is probably my fault that I didn't clarify with him if that was per hour or per person per hour. My previous plumber charged $85 per hour and he would sometime have an apprentice with him but he never charged me for the appointment's hour. Unfortunately he is retired now.

        • HighAndDry on 19/02/2019 - 10:58
          +3

          I don't see it as your fault the plumber didn't make his rates clear, or rather, that he basically quoted you incorrectly. While it's common to charge "per person", that's not the default and shouldn't be assumed.

        • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 11:03

          Apprentice's hour.

    • trapper on 19/02/2019 - 15:31
      +2

      Yeah but the second hour was recovering their broken tool.

      • Seraphin7 on 19/02/2019 - 17:22
        +1

        Yeah, that's to be considered here as well. Let me say that the $380+ would be the most that could be justified. I'm certainly swayed by some of the arguments on here that it should be some lesser amount.

  • tunzafun001 on 19/02/2019 - 09:32
    +10

    Since you paid for the auger, you keep it. They can hire it from you for $280 per hr, per man that touches it!

    Muppets!

    Name the company so know one else has to be put through this!

    • poohduck on 19/02/2019 - 10:12
      +1

      I'm guessing it's like a broken flexible drill bit, not the whole machine.

      • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 10:55

        Yes. The flexible bit. He had trouble starting the machine in the beginning. Took him 20 minutes to start the machine. I probably should be grateful that his machine did not break down on my property?

  • bobbified on 19/02/2019 - 09:36
    +2

    charge customer for tool damaged during the process

    If that was normal practice, I bet lots of tradesmen would be rocking up with $20 Ozito tools.

    • HighAndDry on 19/02/2019 - 11:03
      +6

      *$2,000 Ozito tools…

      • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 11:05

        I am grateful it's not a $2000 tool.

        • bobbified on 19/02/2019 - 11:26
          +6

          Even if it was a $2000 tool, it's not your problem anyway!

  • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 09:51
    +9

    thank you all for the prompt response and advice. It feels great to join this fornum and yes I am new here. I will ask fair trading to investigate and hopefully that will deter the plumber from overcharging other people. Thank you all.

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 11:46
      +3

      Welcome.

      You'll find that members are generally very helpful if you provide objective information and you haven't posted in hopes of having someone pat your back.

  • poohduck on 19/02/2019 - 10:10
    +2

    I'm guessing that there were two of them in the car when they went to do your job, and only one of them was a qualified plumber. They probably came from a two man job (plumber and labourer, or plumber and apprentice). Rather than drop one of them off, they both went to your site, but you covered the passenger's time. Valid questions would be "why were two men sent?" and "did they arrive in the one vehicle?" There's no way that two qualified plumbers rolled up to that job in their own vehicles.

  • Donaldhump on 19/02/2019 - 10:17
    +8

    Name and shame these a holes

  • dogboy on 19/02/2019 - 10:27
    +6

    Why are plumbers such dodgy tradies always trying to rip people off?

    • [Deactivated] on 19/02/2019 - 11:14
      +6

      Cause they suck at their job and take forever to complete the simplest task, have no repeat business and greedy.

      The better ones don't take small jobs and won't work with people they don't know. If you find someone who works efficiently, sticks to their quote and their work looks good, you keep that business card like gold.

      (To know if a tradie is working efficiently, knowledgeable and works to a high standard, you need to invest a fair bit of time to gain some basic knowledge and skills yourself.)

      • tomsco on 19/02/2019 - 11:32
        +1

        The better ones don't take small jobs and won't work with people they don't know. If you find someone who works efficiently, sticks to their quote and their work looks good, you keep that business card like gold.

        I'm lucky in that the one time I needed a job done, I did find a good, honest one.

        Was just a blocked drain like OP, but came out and only charged one hour (I know it didn't take an hour, but I think a min fee is fair) which was something like $80 or so.

        you keep that business card like gold.

        Now I know what the OzB opinion is like about plumbers, I will keep this in mind for the plumber I used.

        • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 11:45

          Does anyone have a gold business card of a good plumber in Brisbane that I can borrow?

          • Tank evil on 19/02/2019 - 23:24
            +2

            @19331211: northside based travels south side though also. 0412003157 hes gold.

            • 19331211 on 20/02/2019 - 00:01

              @Tank evil: Thank you so much!! Will save the number in my phone now.

            • Daabido on 20/02/2019 - 15:54
              +1

              @Tank evil: He's got a 4.7 rating out of 5 on some third party service website. I would love to be in an industry where you don't have to advertise to get work. My plumber says it's not worth having a website, because he is always full of work.

              • Tank evil on 21/02/2019 - 00:20
                +1

                @Daabido: when your good enough that your work speaks for its self you wont…

                • boostpak on 22/02/2019 - 08:35

                  @Tank evil: not always the case, if it's in demand in that area, then THAT speaks for its self!

    • pformag on 19/02/2019 - 12:40
      +2

      I'm in WA, my plumber is great. He charges what is on the quote and nothing more. He is a little pricey, but his work is of high quality and he is on time, also goes the extra mile to help when needed. Did 2 bathroom renos, multiple pipe burst, main sewer pipe movement for pool, hot water changes etc. I think the best plumbers/tradies are the ones that are recommended by others.

      • d39833 on 19/02/2019 - 12:55

        What are his details?

        • pformag on 19/02/2019 - 13:40
          +1

          I will PM you.

    • Cletus vandamme on 19/02/2019 - 13:36

      Because someone doesn't take the time to post about a good job, only the bad ones.

      • dogboy on 20/02/2019 - 11:20

        Sure but it seems like there are more complaints about plumbers than other trades is what I am getting at.

  • kungfupanda on 19/02/2019 - 11:42
    +2

    I also had terrible experiences with plumbers in Victoria - not only is it hard to find a honest and reliable one, but also it is so difficult to get a proper quotes.
    Most of them will tell you that they charge $160 - $190 for the call-out fee + first hour of service, and then charge $90 - $120 per hour for additional time.
    I wonder if there are any honest and reliable plumbers in Victoria.
    If you do know, please share their contacts with me - Thanks in advance.

    • pais on 19/02/2019 - 19:55
      +1

      Most of them will tell you that they charge $160 - $190 for the call-out fee + first hour of service, and then charge $90 - $120 per hour for additional time.

      Charging hourly rates are fine for jobs that cannot be accurately estimated. The alternative is that they are more conservative and will quote you for the job, which results in the whole "he charged me $100 for 5 minutes work!" (that he/she spent 4 years working out how to do).

      • kungfupanda on 20/02/2019 - 09:06
        +1

        I am very reasonable person. If a plumber quotes $100, then I found out the job was completed in few minutes. I'll accept it because I am also in the similar field where I have to learn several years to be good at it.
        So I personally prefer quotes and I don't mind the plumber slugs some fat into the quotes - after all it is a business and not a charity work.

        The problem I raised was the fact the plumber can get away with charging hourly rates and possibly "play the hours" - most plumbers I called have been moving away from giving "quotes", they just want to charge hourly rates. Unless it's a "big" job such as bathroom renovation, or replacing the pipe system, or at least installing AC Split system.

  • Sex on 19/02/2019 - 12:12
    +2

    Sounds like you got yourself a dodgy plumber. No way should you be paying for their incompetence. Keep us updated on what happens!

  • idonotknowwhy on 19/02/2019 - 12:26
    +8

    Name and shame the scammers so we can Dr.Boom their asses on google reviews.

    • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 12:33

      I would not call them scammers as they did unblock the drain. It's the charge that I have issues with.

      • Handsoff on 19/02/2019 - 13:11
        +6

        Definitely sounds like a scam to me. I can imagine they've done this plenty of times before, if not the auger then sending 2 people out and if not that then billing you for the job and then billing you for the hourly rate on top. Scam: a dishonest scheme.

  • chiuy on 19/02/2019 - 12:50
    +2

    "That doesn't need to be augered." - Guybrush Threepwood

  • Filbert on 19/02/2019 - 13:17
    +4

    Purchase a gerni with a pipe unblocking tool. I brought one that (surprise) was on sale and have unblocked one sink that was stubborn as hell prior, and also a blocked stormwater.

  • Yawhae on 19/02/2019 - 13:24
    -8

    Hi, I'm an electrician and bill in the same format and also work along side plumbers so hopefully I can provide some insight.

    Firstly if the tool brakes on the job it is absolutely not you're responsibility to cover the cost of replacement. The only exception to this would be that if the task it's self would require a new bit each time it is used or every other time. I would not pay this cost.

    Secondly you'll need to clarify, when you originally spoke to the plumber was the price $280 to unblock the drain if it takes less than an hour and $95 an hour for every hour there after.

    Third you should not look at the additional bloke been an additional cost as more times than not it will take significantly less time for 2 people than 1. In your situation a single tradesmen could have been there for 3 hours or more.

    i would look at the cost like this.

    $280 for the first hour (regardless of if there are two blokes or not)
    $95 x 2 x 1.5hrs (this is fair and reasonable as it did take an additional 2 blokes 1.5hrs to complete the work).

    Total $565. + GST

    If you still think this is unfair then you are expecting work done cheaply, unless the other bloke spent the entire time doing nothing.

    • 19331211 on 19/02/2019 - 13:31
      -4

      Thank you so much for the advice. Your view is very valuable and fair. I think I will pay all the charges except the broken auger. After all, the boys did take on a job that's dirty and messy. Really appreciate your view from a tradies point of view.

      • Yawhae on 19/02/2019 - 13:37
        +2

        The main thing here that I don't like is that the plumber has been devious, shit does happen and that appears to be the case here. Next time you go with someone make sure they give you a written quote that clearly outlines the terms. That way if something does go wrong and you're not notified of a variation to the quote then you simply do not pay the extra.

      • callum9999 on 19/02/2019 - 20:15
        +2

        They're plumbers, it's literally their job to take on dirty jobs..

    • HighAndDry on 19/02/2019 - 14:16
      +5

      $280 for the first hour (regardless of if there are two blokes or not)

      Actually the plumber is charging this for the first 1/2 hour only because he sent two men, per the OP:

      He explained the $280 to unblock drain covered the first hour labour (in this case 1/2 hour because he sent 2 men)

      Otherwise it'd be 1hr + 1hr, or

      $280 (first hour regardless of there being 2 men)
      $95 x 2 (second hour for two men)
      $470.

      • Yawhae on 19/02/2019 - 15:04
        +1

        I misread that part and assumed the 1.5hrs was on top. In that case the $470 would be correct.

  • trilby on 19/02/2019 - 13:27
    +1

    Just as an aside - and I agree with others that they shouldn't charge for a broken tool, but did they charge you retail or wholesale rates for the replacement tool and did they factor in that they will get some of that cost back in tax?

  • jedimaster on 19/02/2019 - 13:54
    +1

    Try airtasker next time. That's what I used when I had to replace a pipe and you get much reasonable quotes.

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