Hi guys, recently my garmin watch's GPS stopped working so I brought it back to Harvey. They assessed and said I can either get a replacement or store credit. The watch was bought in Dec 2017.
I asked if I could just get a refund instead and their reply was no because it's almost out of warranty.
Am I entitled to receive a refund? Is "almost out of warranty" a valid reason to reject a refund?
In your world, there's no reason to have a minor failure clause because everything would be major.
Bingo.
why would the ACCC mention giving the retailer the choice of repair/replace when the first time anything breaks is deemed a major problem?
The OP is entitled to the option of a replacement watch (which HN cannot provide - wrong colour)
Did OP confirm they discussed the colour issue with HN? It was mentioned as an afterthought here (it’s not in the OP).
repair (HN say that can't be done)
Where was this mentioned?
@[Deactivated]: You're choosing to selectively interpret part of the definition of a major failure.
it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
it is significantly different from the sample or description
it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time
it doesn’t do what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time; or
it is unsafe.
Only 2 points refer to reasonable time of repair. A major fault does not have to meet all the criteria to be determined a major fault. A minor fault is when the issue does not fall under any of the criteria in the major fault. Whether it's the first fault is not a disqualifying factor.
A significant portion of the functionality failing would be easily described as a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it.
https://www.accc.gov.au/about-us/tools-resources/social-medi…
@[Deactivated]: Consumer guarantees states that the product should safe, lasting and without faults.
How long is ‘reasonable’ will depend on the type of product.
A watch is expected to last longer then 11 months. Also, the manufacturer gives a 1 year warranty reflecting their expectation that the product should work for at least that amount of time.
fight fight fight for your pareentsss loveee, fight fight!
A stat warranty (as in this case)….the item is still in warranty. There is no grey. It's either within the 12m or it's outside the 12m. And your warranty is with the store, not the manufacturer (as HN will next try to divert you to them)
Almost out of warranty is a seriously shit reason to deny a refund, it's either in or out of warranty.
Agreed. It's definitely in warranty (I'd say 2 years would be a minimum for this, so it's not even realistically 'almost out'), however being almost a year old is a reason for it to not be considered a major failure. They have a right to offer a repair or replacement. Only if they can't do either, are they obligated to offer a refund.
GPS failure of that watch, is a major fault, in anyone's language.
Completely not working at all is still minor if it can be quickly repaired or replaced. Otherwise everything would be major and there'd be no need for the distinction. 'Major' under the ACL is basically 'will never again work / was never going to be fit for purpose / can't be fixed quickly'.
Unfortunately this is counter intuitive in that a 'major fault' is still a 'minor failure' provided it is quickly re-mediated.
This isn't true at all. The major/minor stuff was written in to prevent people demanding brand new cars due to a scratch or a faulty replaceable component.
A GPS watch where the GPS doesn't work is a major fault, no ways about it. OP is entitled to a refund.
Spoken as if you wrote it. Unfortunately, you didn't and it's not true.
In your world 'any' fault would be major, there'd be no reason for a minor fault to happen. Small scratch? Major. Battery runs out? Major. This just isn't reality. These things are supposed to have multi-year warranties at this price point, no one is going to sell them at all if they have to refund completely the purchase price when the battery dies. The GPS not working is less major than a dead battery.
The 'Major failure' stuff wasn't written to prevent people from demanding a refund in the case of a scratch, it was written to ALLOW them to demand a refund in exceptional circumstances. Prior to that you basically had no right to get a refund even if your car had an engine die 4 times in a month.
I can't even believe people seem to have this weird sense of justice, that you can use an item for a year, then expect 100% of your money back, no questions asked. It's fair that it should last more than a year, but this 'entitled to a refund' attitude is bat-shit insane. Every court or tribunal will laugh at you for trying.
@[Deactivated]: Any major feature failing in warranty is a major issue. No rational consumer would accept a product they knew would have a major feature failure with in the warranty period. Warranties are there to keep brand confidence during early failures. It is reasonable to expect an expensive watch to last 10+ years.
It's not hard to build devices that will last. It's penny pinching by the manufacturer.
@This Guy: I'm not going after the strawman in the second part of your post. But the reality is, absolutely none of the disputes have been settled by courts with your interpretation that 'any major feature failing in warranty is a major issue'. The thing can die completely and for sure it's an ISSUE but it's still minor provided it can be replaced in a reasonable period of time and the failure wasn't dangerous.
The price of a device comparative to others definitely dictates how long things are expected to last. The best indications of how long 'expected to last' is come from the ATO's depreciation schedule. And sadly it's not 10+ years for consumer electronics. Absolutely though it should be several years, however, a replacement is a perfectly acceptable remedy to anything up to and including complete device failure, in the first instance.
It would be a major failure if any replacement could also be expected to die quickly. But electronics have an MTBF and sometimes devices will be much below that, sometimes much above, it's not an exact science. If the replacement dies in another 11 months you'd have a case for a refund then.
@[Deactivated]: Production Engineering is an exact science.
Six Sigma is an absolute simplification of the process of production engineering. Well engineered mass produced products should absolutely be designed with a 99.99966% defect free rate. I would expect a $450 watch with a $30 manufacturing cost to absolutely last 10+ years. G Shock watches have been doing so for 35 years and can cost far less. Early device failure is purely an engineering problem that has been moved to consumers as products have been optmised for cost. That is not a strawman argument but I can see that it looks that way as I said that off hand.
ATO depreciates a $20,000 TV at the same rate as a $500 TV.
I have replied to your minor/major problem argument in another post, hence I wont wast your time by dragging it up here.
Well engineered mass produced products should absolutely be designed with a 99.99966% defect free rate.
Your argument is that if OP falls into the 0.00034% that failed, it wouldn't have been reasonable for him to purchase in the first place?
You're expected to have a working device for a reasonable period after purchase. Honestly, since everyone is in agreement that it's going to be WELL more than the OP's 11 months, there's no point in arguing that further.
The only argument is whether every single failure is major, or if the ACCC has some failures listed as minor for any reason at all. Based on the outcome of every case I've seen, the distinction has always been the length of time the consumer has been without the product due to repairs, rather than the actual failure. Basically, nothing is major on the first failure unless the replacement would also have that failure (eg the GPS doesn't work when clouds around or something stupid like that) - obviously a made up example.
@[Deactivated]: I respect that your experience is that all customers get looked after. This is not my experience. We keep getting off topic, so I am just going to quote and link to "A guide for businesses and legal practitioners".
http://consumerlaw.gov.au/consumers-and-the-acl/
Prove me wrong with links I love to learn!
@This Guy: Again, the issue isn't whether they have an obligation to remedy it. They absolutely do. Even for in excess of the expressed warranty. The issue is whether the failure of the watch, once, after 11 months, with an instant replacement offered, classifies as 'major' entitling the buyer to a full refund.
There isn't a more minor issue than this, so the retailer has the right to choose, repair, replace or refund. Only if they can't repair or replace do they have to refund (or if they want to refund they can anyway).
You absolutely have the right to have a working product for a reasonable period of time, even in excess of the expressed warranty. What you don't have the right to is a refund unless the circumstances are exceptional. Eg. If the GPS on all models of that watch was inaccurate and could not be made so, a replacement wouldn't be suitable, so you'd have to get a refund. Also if it was going to be 2 months until you could get a replacement, you'd again have a case for a refund. If you take a completely dead watch to the retailer and they go, here's a fully working replacement, that's a perfectly acceptable remedy under the ACL.
People are getting hung up on 'major' meaning 'as a proportion of functionality' when it means nothing of the sort, it's about how long you are denied use of the product you paid for, to the point that, had you known, you would never have bought it. A perfectly reasonable person would still buy a product that dies after 11 months if it's instantly replaced with a working product after it does. It's a general word because it also covers other things that wouldn't be fixed by a replacement (eg, you get sold a vacuum cleaner with a 2 foot cord, and all the replacements also only have a 2 foot cord).
if it's instantly replaced with a working product after it does.
You have no right to that for a minor problem. It is the suppliers choice, and they can and will choose a free repair by the manufacturer which usually takes 3+ weeks.
Acceptable quality is only one of the nine guarantees. It also has to be fit for purpose, come with undisturbed possession, clean title and be able to do anything the supplier says it will (like work as a GPS watch). Too many suppliers don't respect undisturbed possession or clean title when it comes to the remedy of repair.
Proportion of functionality
Please provide sources for you claims. I am always interested in being corrected.
The supplier in OP's case agrees it's a major problem. Hence they offered OP a choice of replacement or refund. The supplier stuffed up as they offered the refund as a credit note. If OP wants to waste massive amounts of time, he can chase it up with Corporate or the ACCC so the franchisee can be warned off this conduct.
Yep - refund, replacement or repair. Purchaser's choice.
And note the term 'warranty' under Australian Consumer Law is NOT the same as the manufacturer/retailer's guarantee (that they cal a warranty). The legal term 'warranty' generally goes much further than any guarantee offered by the retailer/manufacturer.
Harvey Norman knows this - it even has a webpage on this very fact as ordered by the ACCC due to past digressions.
Why dont you bring this up with garmin.
They will likely replace it.
Your warranty is with the Manufacturer (or agent), not the retailer. The retailer cannot refuse to help you with a warranty claim with the manufacturer. If you insist, they have to help you handle your warranty claim with garmin
Warranty is with retailer not manufacturer. OP wants a refund not replacement.
It is MANUFACTURER warranty.
Consumer guarantee still applies and it stipulates that the retailer cannot palm off the warranty.
"The retailer who sold you the product or service cannot refuse to help you by sending you to the manufacturer or importer. " - ACCC, since like forever…
@[Deactivated]: BuyoTheCat isn't saying the retailer can palm you off:
The retailer cannot refuse to help you with a warranty claim with the manufacturer.
They are simply saying that while the retailer must handle the process, the actually warranty is provided by Garmin and therefore if it was to be fixed or whatever, it would be by Garmin/at their expense.
@tomsco: Yes, but managed by the retailer in Australia.
Retailers give 1 year warranty across the world usually, but this is superseded by local laws if they are deemed to be longer.
What's wrong with getting a new replacement?
The same colour is unavailable and I'm not a huge fan of the colour they have.
Some may tell you to suck it up, but depending on the colours, that may be a fair enough point.
Are they able to source another colour from elsewhere? If not, they may have to send it off to Garmin to be repaired.
Suck it up? Do you want a flashing bright light version when you only wanted a dim litted blue one and that they no longer sell the dim litted blue ones anymore? The difference could be as extreme as this, to be an unacceptable replacement….
@Zachary: That's why I said the original colour being unavailable may be a fair point that a replacement is not sufficient.
Well if they can’t offer like-for-like you should definitely be entitled to a refund!
Yeah if you've had it that long and it seems you were happy with it all that time, just take a replacement. I've never asked for a refund unless something was broken out of the box or within days of purchase.
EDIT: Oh, if you elected for a replacement at first but they didn't have a comparable replacement I think they should offer a refund. I don't think "nearly out of warranty" is a good excuse lol.
Didn't they have a newer model at similar value to what you originally paid? When a hard drive I bought from Officeworks failed within a year, I took it back and since they didn't have that capacity any more, they offered me the capacity they currently sell at that price, or a higher capacity if I paid the difference.
You gotta fight for your right t̶o̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶t̶y with Harvey…
They can argue that it is a minor fault, hence replace or store credit. They cannot tell you that you are almost out of warranty lol. You either are under warranty or you are not.
"Almost out of warranty" … sounds like some dribbler at HN is just making it up now.
Ask them when does "in warranty" end and "almost out of warranty" begin.
Did the OP record this conversation? Would make absolute News if published.
It was actually recorded…I record all my calls.
CONTACT FAIR TRADING IN YOUR STATE OR TERRITORY ASK THEM THE QUESTION, get a copy of their warranty/returns policy and read up on it.
Why not just get a replacement?
I thought this too, but they don't have the same colour anymore apparently - in the case of a watch, I suppose it's fair enough not to take the replacement: the style would be a driving factor for purchase I would reckon and they're not offering an identical replacement
There's no reason they have to refund you. Of course, they can replace or repair it, but if they can't replace it with one the same or repair it, they may have no choice but to refund.
You don't think it's a bit much using a thing for a few years then expecting 100% of your money back in cash? It's fair enough to expect it to keep working and be repaired or replaced though. Also the required warranty on this would be more than 12 months.
GPS failure of that watch, is a major fault, in anyone's language.
'Major' is usually that a replacement also wouldn't be fit for purpose. Eg, none of that brands watches work, or you've had it replaced several times already and it keep breaking. It's not a reference to how much of it doesn't function. It's designed to stop people repeatedly being given a lemon.
it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time
it does not meet the specific purpose you asked for and cannot easily be fixed within a reasonable time
it creates an unsafe situation.
Nice, down-voted for knowing (and quoting) the law.
Interesting. Does this mean every fault is minor at the beginning? Then becomes major after trying to repair?
Yes. Except where it can't be repaired because it's something intrinsic in the product / dangerous. (eg, the watch band gives you a rash, a ladder is prone to collapse, the cord on all of this model of vacuum cleaner is only 2 feet long etc).
If it's just 'totally non functional' it's minor on at least the first occurrence.
Minor is 'it can be fixed by a repair / replacement'. Major is 'it doesn't matter how much you repair it, the problem will still exist'. You can argue minor becomes major if it's a minor issue that repeatedly occurs. Eg. If your car breaks down and is repaired 4 times in the first month you have it then you'd have a very good case for it being a major failure.
@TarquinOliverNimrod
No, a fault at the beginning can also be classified as major as long as it meets the criteria.
The classification of minor or major is determined before the compensation is provided to the buyer.
Only in the instance when the major is basically something that can't be rectified by a replacement….
if they can't replace it with one the same or repair it, they may have no choice but to refund.
not necessarily the same, but significantly similar - question is if the different colour is significantly different or a significant difference?
I reckon you'd have a good case for a fashion item if the colour is different. If it was something like an internal part that you couldn't see then I'm sure they wouldn't have to be the same.
Though I guess if the colour is an subtly different shade of grey, it's a grey area…. :p
true - so is a garmin watch a fashion item?
what if it's gray instead of grey? ;)
I'd be telling them to fix it, or replace with an IDENTICAL model, that includes colour. Part or products numbers are usually different for different colour versions.
If they cannot do either, then they have no choice but to refund you.
I and many of my friends have found that Garmin Australia is really, really good when it come to warranty coverage.
Unless you really have your heart set on a refund, I'd suggest going straight through Garmin for a warranty claim. They will do right by you. (Often extending to replacing with a newer model :)
Worth noting, while you can choose to go through the retailer, the manufacturer may actually be able to offer you a better deal!
Fight for your right!!!!………………………… TO PARRTTTYYYY
but seriousness, companies would replace/repair as the first offer then offer a refund. No company wants to offer a refund first. But because its a major fault then a refund should be on the list if the customer wants one.
No sleep till …… refund !
I'd call the ACCC
That's rich coming from a pastry :p
They will send it away and Garmin will give you a replacement unit in a week or two
But OP wants money, not a new one…
Take store credit and buy a new one? so the warranty resets?
Where is the replacement option in the poll ?
This is a common OzBargain misconception. Failure at any stage of product ownership within warranty does not entitle you to a refund!
You are always entitled to a remedy under warranty - this is usually in the form of a repair or replacement.
From ACCC:
You can ask for a replacement or refund if the problem with the product is major.
Replaced products must be of an identical type to the product originally supplied. Refunds should be the same amount you have already paid, provided in the same form as your original payment.
The business may take into account how much time has passed since you bought the product considering the following factors:
In summary, you are entitled to a working product. You're not entitled to a refund if the product fails towards the end of your warranty!
Yeah, you can imagine how many people would be subtly destroying their products towards the end of the warranty period if this were the case right? You'd never need to pay for anything again! Meanwhile, every return would get extreme suspicion of fraud.
Of course, given the reality is that you at best will get another working device, there's minimal incentive for fraud. Offering store credit is nice, considering these things often have newer models at the same or lower price.
Offering store credit is nice, considering these things often have newer models at the same or lower price.
Yep, this sort of garbage loses value a lot faster than AUD or "Store Credit".
This is a great outcome as you can buy the same product or a better replacement, cheaper.
Take store credit or replacement, two great options. Refund.. dreaming.
We have the same issue with our LG Roboking. Just almost out of the extended warranty that costed us $200+ few years back. Took the $699 (Roboking price then) store credit and just waiting on a discount on a washer now.
So my LG Roboking only costed me $200+ for 5 years of usage.
I purchased Tomtom go 520 from Bing Lee and its also a month before a year into warranty before it went kaput. I initially asked for replacement but then again, the hassle of dealing interstate is just too much for me, so I opted with full refund, no worries.
So you should fight for it mate.
Replacement is fine, why make life difficult. I don't think you can demand a refund if they offered to fix or replace it.
But since they offered a store credit, I would take that if you are no longer keen on the watch.
Add replacement to the poll.
Both parties should find a happy medium. IMO, I would be happy with a replacement but if I wanted a refund, I can because ACL states if its a major fault then the customer has the right to request for a full cash refund as an offer.
Except this isn't a major fault as defined under the ACL. Major is failed multiple times / unable to be replaced / repaired to a working version / caused injury etc.
It isn't possible to get a more minor fault than this.
The customer can absolutely request a refund, they’re not entitled to one however, assuming a repair or replacement is offered that will restore the item as per that which was originally sold.
Refund.
Do you no longer want a smart watch or something?
Just take the store credit and spend it on a brand new watch with a brand new measly 12 month warranty
(WTF at people buying >$1k tech with only 1 year warranty! These things must be built like shit if that's all they're guaranteed for.)
(WTF at people buying >$1k tech with only 1 year warranty! These things must be built like shit if that's all they're guaranteed for.)
The ACL is in addition to any expressed warranties. If your watched died at 18 months you'd still have a case under the ACL for repair or replacement, given the price. A $30 watch on the other hand…
The 12 months is just what they put on there to scare you off. Strangely LG were taken to court by the ACCC over this (and worse), and the ACCC lost!
Hah, I was right! If you were to buy a million dollar car, you would expect it to last longer than say a $50k car.
..just ranting from a previous thread post…..
:P
Might be immaterial at that price point. But sure, if you bought a car for $2,000 you'd expect it not to last as long as one that was $20,000 (but not 1/10th as long). It's not going to be a linear scale. A certain amount of money you would expect to be paying for quality, other times for features etc.
Write/email to main customer line them explaining your situation and the colour, they maybe able to find the same.
Then try with ACCC if really fussed with colour.
Why's everyone telling this guy to contact the ACCC? Please actually read what the ACCC can and can't do before putting time into that rabbit hole.
The ACCC will not (and does not have the right to) pursue individual cases. In other words, if you complain to them, they'll note it down and that's all. More often than not, they won't even have the capacity to take your call.
If you want assistance, contact Consumer Affairs in your state. If you want action, take it to the tribunal in your state.
The law is vague, that's why people have lawyers. We can debate as much as we want about whether you should get a refund or not but unless you're willing to take it further, it's all moot.
This is exactly why I refuse to step foot or purchase anything from Harvey Norman, a very similar thing happened to me except within 2 months of buying a speaker. They told me they could only do store refunds, then the manager told me they can't even do that. I left and after 2 weeks they called me and offered me a full refund. Ridiculous.
Bs thread nothing to do with warranty. OP just wants the $$ for personal reasons. Store credit is the perfect remedy. I bet op has seen it cheaper etc somewhere else and just being a scummy ozb'er.
And yea the call ACCC advice is a favourite of every internet armchair expert..yawn
Interesting how one can become so angry over a warranty thread that's merely seeking advice on whether someone is entitled to a refund.
Lol everyone is so entitled in this thread. Do you guys even know what a warranty means? The very definition of a warranty? Why are you guys quoting ACL. If a car breaks down 4 years into a 5 year warranty can I ask for a refund?
Indeed. an exact or higher replacement or store credit is more than reasonable for something used for almost a year. I won't shop at Harvey Norman but what theyre offering is sufficient. They are a fricking business afterall.
lol people love quoting ACL. Most don't even have a clue about how it works. Makes you sound smart though!! But yeah, offering store credit or repair/replacement after 12mths is perfectly satisfactory. The entitled kids don't seem to get that… or rather choose to ignore.
They are hoping to stuff you around until your "almost out of warranty" watch is "fully out of warranty, goodbye".
Take the store credit and sell the credit @5% discount or so. Consider that as depreciation for a year of usage.
You don't seem to understand the term 'warranty'.
Buyer gets his money back, replacement or repair - HIS CHOICE by law.
No arbitrary discount for the fact it's 'almost out of warranty'.
Lol you don't seem to understand the law
LOL - I'm dead certain you don't.
Check regulations under ACL or the ACCC website if you want:
https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees…
'When you have a major problem with a product, you have the right to ask for your choice of a replacement or refund.'
And yes, a GPS watch that fails less than one year from purchase is a 'major problem'.
Oh, and your rights under the consumer guarantees do not have a specific expiry date and can apply even after any 'warranties' you’ve got from a business have expired.
Get it?
na, you wrong
Refund after almost a year of usage? Fair dinkum mate…
I just refuse to shop at Harvey Norman!
If it's still under warranty, they should be repairing it or replacing it or if they don't want to do that a straight out refund!
I had a fit-bit that I purchased a while back via Ebay with the Good-Guys. The battery went and they returned it (the good guys) and gave me a brand new one, no questions asked.
Tell them to give you a new one, or you intend to submit a claim through the Office of Fair Trading.
And as these watches often cost an arm and a leg - I'd expect them to last longer than 11months. Notwithstanding this - planned obsolescence is impractical, and not sustainable!
Did you even read the OP before sharing your wonderful but redundant advice?
Shops are assholes.
My summary story;
A few years ago I bought a Samsung Galaxy S4 Zoom from Myer. worked fine for 4 months, then utterly died. Could not load past splash screen. Contact Samsung tech support, went through all their strategies for hard resets such as multiple holding buttons etc, yep still dead, won't load past splash screen. They determined fault was major and would need to be sent in for repair.
Being a phone, and being phoneless whilst waiting for a repair didn't sit well with me, so off to Myer. They refused refund, only offering repair (not even replacement as they had none). There excuse is they are too uneducated to determine the fault if it is minor or major (not specialised tech wise enough to categorise it), the fact the phone would not load past a splash screen, cannot make a call, text or take a photo still was not sufficient for them…
Additionally, despite having dealt with Samsung, getting a reference No. to the case for them to confirm direct with Samsung (ie it's bust, it needs to be sent in for repair/replacement (as often its cheaper for them to replace the handset than waste time), they still would not refund.
I had to take them to tribunal where eventually I did get my money back (tribunals aren't free tho). Suffice to say I avoid Penrith Myer at all costs to this day.
Where is the customer satisfaction, after sales support? No wonder I buy online because in the end I'll be dealing with the manufacturer directly anyway. Shops need to get a new attitude pronto imo!
lol, you said Penrith right?
@oscargamer: Again, you have't explained what a minor failure would be, by your judgement every failure would be major. You're just plain wrong.
That's not at all what that means. That test is basically, you buy it, and it doesn't suck, or it has an unrealistically short cord etc. If one out of every ten thousand dies after three months and is replace, it's still minor. People would be happy to buy a vacuum cleaner knowing that 1/10,000 of them die after 3 months if they're going to get a replacement anyway. It's not going to stop anyone buying it. They wouldn't buy it if the replacement still wasn't going to work.
In your world, there's no reason to have a minor failure clause because everything would be major.