How Do I Convince my GF that Australia is a Rich Country?

penguin286 on 19/07/2018 - 23:48
Last edited 20/07/2018 - 19:03

Hi guys, this started because my gf complains about paying tax but I am the opposite.

She says she pays too much tax whereas I say we live in a country with an abundance of good infrastructure so I'm content with paying current taxes.

Overall, I get the feeling she compares herself domestically with Australians but I compare myself with the rest of the world.

FYI We're both 26 and earning 50-60 a year.

Maybe I should just drop her in the middle of Pakistan or something for a reality check

PS. My gf/fiance (same person LOL) is an awesome individual and I lurve her very much :D

Financial

Comments

  • Archi on 19/07/2018 - 23:52
    +3

    What other country is she comparing Australia to?

    • penguin286 on 19/07/2018 - 23:55
      +1

      She's not, but if I say let's compare the salary of rural insert developing country she'll say their living expenses are lower as well.

      • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:33
        +11

        And she'd be right. It's a bad argument to say "But look at [insert shitty country]". Because she can point to plenty of countries who use their tax dollars far more efficiently than Australia does. Have you looked at Switzerland, for example?

        • FloatingPoint on 20/07/2018 - 16:44
          +22

          Population density of Switzerland is > 60x higher than Aus.

        • [Deactivated] on 21/07/2018 - 15:52
          +7

          Plenty of "developed" countries use their tax dollars worse too.

          We had a business that moved from Australia to California, and found that out. It looked like a cheap place to business. Income taxes (at the Federal level) were nominally low… but then you had state income tax, social security levies, medicare levies, FICA, and so on. That meant that the take-home pay of employees as a ratio to gross salary was no better than here. Then the business had to provide healthcare (a huge, huge cost), there was an expectation to help with 401(k) contributions, and so on.

          Meanwhile, government services were nonexistent. I don't know where the tax dollars even went.

          I guess my point is that the actual cost of doing business in a country is something you can only experience yourself. The statistics don't really show it up, due to the way the costs are broken up into a whole pile of little taxes and contributions, and supposedly "voluntary" costs that every business needs to offer to be competitive.

          We actually have it pretty good in Australia. If anything, our main issue is that the tax system is too simple, so when you do naive comparison of tax rates, we look uncompetitive.

        • ialam99 on 22/07/2018 - 08:06
          +5

          @nbn: Yep I agree with you there, because of our low population across a vast area, our cost of infrastructure is higher then other countries.

          However the ~30%+ taxes we pay really goes towards free healthcare, free education incl higher education (through HECS) and somewhat decent social security and unemployment benefits, etc that other countries (like US) don't have.

        • bpop99 on 23/07/2018 - 11:26
          +3

          @marlor:

          One thing that shocks me about aussies is that how good they have it but yet grumble about the taxes they pay. Tax rates are comparatively low for the service that they get and while incompetency in government is still there, the issue is that they should put more effort in punishing inefficient government and businesses. Also, while direct taxation may be higher than other countries, people often forget indirect taxation, such as from bureaucratic inefficiencies, corruption and indirect taxes (such as import / excise taxes) are quite low.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2018 - 13:50
        +14

        The quality of life is also lower.

        If you want the same quality of life that you enjoy in Australia, this can actually be MORE expensive in developing countries… Something you just can't get no matter how much money you have.

        • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 13:56
          +14

          Eh. In a lot of South East Asian countries (and others no doubt), the average income in Australia would buy you a fully staffed mansion in a gated community.

          It's a misnomer to look at "average standard of living", it's skewed by the millions in those countries subsisting on far below the poverty line.

        • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2018 - 14:58
          +2

          @HighAndDry:

          It's alright man. I live in a developing country, I see it every day.

        • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 17:30
          +2

          @Drew22: I think I saw that in another one of your comments.

          Yeah to me it's crazy. Because I have friends who're from those countries, and their families are maybe upper middle class in Australia, and they talk incredibly naturally about having maids and cooks and chauffeurs.

          At first I thought they were just secretly billionaires, but no, stuff is just really really cheap there.

        • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2018 - 17:46

          @HighAndDry:

          I have a maid that comes once a week for 4 hours, about $140 a month.
          Easy for me to have but for the average person here it is 20% of their month take home income.

          I could have a full time maid for about $500 a month but I'd rather not.

        • Thrawn on 20/07/2018 - 21:05
          +6

          @HighAndDry:

          If you expect Australian standard living in SEA.. it can definitely cost more

          • imported quality western food and groceries costs a lot more. Fruit, meats, chocolates, etc
          • western standard hospital costs comparable to Australian non-insured private medical care
          • cars often costs more because of taxes.. especially luxury cars
          • international schools can cost more than Australian private schools
          • electronic gadgets often costs more (Apple gear, computer parts, high end branded kitchen appliances, etc)

          Its not that simple.. if you adjust to living to local standards, its cheaper yes. But if you're like an expat professional with the normal Australian style expectations.. it can actually cost more

        • lgacb08 on 21/07/2018 - 08:01
          +1

          @Thrawn: this is spot on. Annual fee for the most expensive private schools in those countries is comparable to the most prestigious schools in Australia but the one in Middle or lower tiers is more than average private school here. If your budget is around 10k then be prepared to do research otherwise you might end up with bogus affiliate school where quality is no where near as good as an average Australian school.
          and this is not to account for the poorer quality of life for things such as constant traffic jam, pollution that no amount of money can buy.

        • crazyboy on 21/07/2018 - 20:11
          -1

          @Thrawn: The medical costs for a top hospital in a developing country and even better quality than Australian hospitals is way cheaper even without any insurance.

        • antzz on 22/07/2018 - 10:40
          +4

          Australia is not an expensive countries at all. I am now travelling much of asia on regular basis as part of business need. Even the income tax in australia is low. This is due to the generous tax free limit that is around 18k and increasing to 20k. You also got a lot of help from government as tax benefits a, b and many other

          Prices for stuff is in general cheaper in australia than say singapore, korea or even jakarta. Try to find 1 dollar a litter milk or 2 dollar a kg fresh seasonal fruit there (banana, apple, grapes etc)

          If anything only property that is somewhat quite expensive even though not but much

          Services is more expensive in Australia than most countries but you usually got very efficient service anyway

          Aussie is still the lucky country

        • abb on 23/07/2018 - 10:06

          @sahilchaudhary: Have you been to a hospital in a developing country? My mate went to one in Cambodia and I assure you it was not better than Australia. Poor hygiene practices etc.

          The top hospitals in Bangkok are fantastic, but in the smaller cities the standard drops rapidly.

        • [Deactivated] on 23/07/2018 - 12:08

          @HighAndDry:

          An uncle of mine lived in Jakarta for years. It just wasn’t a pleasant experience for him.

          Sure, he had a full-time maid, a driver, and was waited on hand and foot, but he was basically cooped up in his house (in a gated community) all day.

          Traffic was appalling, and crime was a real issue, so he stayed in his little community. He’d basically just get up early, get driven to work in horrendous traffic, come home and eat the meal the maid had cooked, and get an early night to get up early for the commute. He’d stay in the gated community of a weekend, because it was safe.

          If he wanted to actually enjoy himself, he’d have to use up some annual leave to fly out to Bali or Singapore. In the end, he ended up buying a place in Bali because he flew there so often to escape.

          It wasn’t much of a life, so he ended up moving back here.

        • HighAndDry on 23/07/2018 - 12:33

          @marlor: Damn that sounds terrible. Never been to Jakarta, but Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, Bali, etc all seemed fine from a safety perspective.

      • greatlamp on 20/07/2018 - 14:00
        +3

        Their expenses are lower, but not proportionally lower.

        Rent may be cheaper, but raw materials cost a similar amount regardless of where you live.

        Get her to compare the average wage in that country, and work out the cost of 1L of fuel, 1kg of rice, 1kg of beef as a percentage of that average wage

        I think you will find very few countries where you are better off.

        • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2018 - 14:58
          +3

          With beef, also compare the quality of it not just the price.

        • Blitzfx on 20/07/2018 - 18:32

          I have a friend who worked in Hong Kong and another who works in Korea (both were few years out of uni), they both worked 10 hour+ days and barely took back $20-30k AU.

          Yet, electronics like Phones and laptops were similarly priced there as they are here.

          A $1k shitty iphone is 2 weeks of wages there. It's ridiculous.

        • jiberz on 21/07/2018 - 09:12

          @Blitzfx: I worked in Korea and was on about 45k AUD a year for working 6 hours a day. Electronics similar price as AUD. Electronics I found to be more expensive than AUD but living expenses were significantly lower except for imported luxury good. They had a disgusting mark up.

        • jace88 on 21/07/2018 - 10:13
          +1

          @Blitzfx: Both those locations + Singapore typically have wider disparity between lower skill/qualification roles and higher.

      • MrTweek on 21/07/2018 - 17:26

        their living expenses are lower as well

        But that's true only for things that are produced locally. Sure, rent and food might be cheaper.

        But an iphone costs the same everywhere. Cars cost the same almost everywhere, especially in countries that import them. Everything you import (i.e. pretty much everything that you find on ozbargain xD) will cost more or less the same everywhere in the world.

        • Mitch889 on 23/07/2018 - 20:38

          Cars certainly do not cost the same almost everywhere. There are plenty of countries that have in excess of 100% taxes on vehicles.

      • MementoMori on 23/07/2018 - 14:56

        Well hold on, are you arguing that Australia is a 'rich country' or 'expensive country'? They're different.

        BTW Australian's are the extremely wealthy globally, like #2 or thereabouts - according to Credit Suisse - http://publications.credit-suisse.com/index.cfm/publikatione…

        I would say you are both right… we're a rich country, and it's expensive.

        You need to measure it in terms of purchasing power of the average person - i.e. what type of life can the average person working the average number of hours afford, and how happy are they, etc.

    • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 20/07/2018 - 17:22
      +3

      OP, it essentially sounds like you want to please the girlfriend. Good luck with that….

  • Archi on 19/07/2018 - 23:57
    +19

    Why do you need to convince or win the arguenent?

    • penguin286 on 19/07/2018 - 23:58
      +29

      So that she's appreciative of where we live, and so she complains less and sees things more positively

      • FeRGan on 20/07/2018 - 01:28
        +5

        Could be her upbringing

      • onetwothreefour on 20/07/2018 - 06:25
        +170

        so she complains less

        That will never happen

        • ChickenTalon on 22/07/2018 - 17:21
          +3

          Wish I had more upvotes, but it would seem like the rest of OzB is taking care of that.

          If you’re not happy when you’re comparing then stop comparing. There will always be someone richer, better looking, smarter, funnier, less smelly etc.

          Stop comparing yourself & situation to others, it is the secret to happiness.

      • tomsco on 20/07/2018 - 07:43
        +34

        Could be easier to replace :p

      • Archi on 20/07/2018 - 09:13
        +4

        as others have said below… it'll be easier to replace the girlfriend. then she will realise upkeep of a girlfriend or boyfriend is way more expensive than her taxes.

      • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:17

        That's a matter of attitude and emotions - facts won't sway her.

      • mooney on 20/07/2018 - 11:19
        +2

        Would you also like a moon on a stick?

      • par3000 on 20/07/2018 - 14:21

        Find a new girlfriend who does both those things.

      • No ONE on 20/07/2018 - 18:19
        +1

        so she complains less

        You know that Australians are the most whining people on planet earth, right? and you complain she does not like Australia.

        • Emerald Owl on 21/07/2018 - 11:02
          -1

          No that would be the pommies.

      • Atazoth616 on 21/07/2018 - 13:29
        +2

        If it helps:

        Australia is ranked 2nd on the human development index scale as of 2016.

        • R4 on 23/07/2018 - 15:04
          +1

          This - and has been for years, just behind Norway

          I've studied a lot of economics at Masters level for a few year now and reckon that because it has financial, health and educational aspects, HDI is one of the best measures of a nation's well-being

          Pure GDP numbers (both nominal and PPP) are okay for the big picture (and Australia is up there) but you need to look deeper. Australia is up the top for disposable and discretionary income, health outcomes, fairness and life expectancy

          This is a great place to live

        • Mitch889 on 23/07/2018 - 20:41

          @R4: agreed. I’ve had the good fortune to to travel to a lot of wonderful places, but it’s always nice to come home to Australia. Sure, some of it will be returning to what I’m accustomed to, but this really is a great place we have here.

      • frewer on 21/07/2018 - 16:51
        +2

        Nothing like experiences, bring her for a holiday to SEA. Dont stay at tourist area … go to the 'dumpster' area to see how the local lives … That is what I did to my missus

      • gurs on 22/07/2018 - 13:56

        Once you convince her then she'll find something else to complain about. And this is how it is, so let her be.

      • xoom on 23/07/2018 - 07:33

        so she complains less

        She will just have/look for something else to complain about.

  • Samsungnote10 on 19/07/2018 - 23:58
    +3

    Does she think taxes are too high or are a waste or arent used efficiently.

    If its just i dont want to pay tax because im not earning enough or want more money, shes just stupid and/or naive

    • penguin286 on 20/07/2018 - 01:03

      Probably more of a personal feeling which K guess would come from not understanding how the tax is being used, and not comparing it to the world (imo)

        • one man clan on 20/07/2018 - 09:05
          +20

          hashtag woke

          Sovereign citizen alert

        • EightImmortals on 20/07/2018 - 09:19

          @one man clan: Get off my fee-simple lawn!

        • greatlamp on 20/07/2018 - 14:03
          +3

          If there was ZERO taxes on a new home, the price would be exactly the same.

          The price of real estate is limited by access to cheap credit. The more people can borrow, the more they will pay.

        • EightImmortals on 20/07/2018 - 14:06

          @Superannuation: That's true. I never claimed the banksters were any better than the politicians. It is also true that the more money people have the more they will spend and historically when the authority has reduced direct taxation they actually end up reaping more tax receipts because of that extra spending.

          (edit, actually I don;t think that is true after all. If taxation were zero on new homes then people might spend more because of loose credit, but would get a better home for the money.)

        • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 14:36
          +1

          @EightImmortals: Not in aggregate. The supply of housing is one of those things which are, in the short- and medium-terms, basically fixed. There's only so much land in a particular place, and property development (from buying land to planning to construction) takes about 3 years at least.

          Everyone having more money would just mean everyone paying more for effectively the same property. Because the property that's available isn't really changing.

      • gurs on 22/07/2018 - 13:58

        Ask her to look at the tax return document which ATO gives, it tell exactly how your money is spent. It shows proportion of your money directed towards various government expenses.

  • gmail92 on 20/07/2018 - 00:01
    +11

    By rich, do you mean with some of the highest household debt in the world?

    ps. May potentially be easier to get a new girlfriend.

    • penguin286 on 20/07/2018 - 01:05
      +1

      Would've thought it would at least mean we have the ability to borrow A LOT of money with decent expectations of paying it back.

      I mean, imagine if Kenya could afford to have a debt that high and not have its country defaulted

      • dcep on 20/07/2018 - 10:00
        +1

        so how much is in your bank right now ?

      • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:20
        +6

        Having borrowed money does not fit any definition of "rich".

        • penguin286 on 20/07/2018 - 16:48

          Dunno, I just feel if I can grab a mortgage for a home and pay it off in 20 years and sell it for 50% higher and travel around the world for possibly 20 years straight I feel like not many people in the world could do the same thing

        • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 17:33

          @penguin286:

          You're right, but again:

          not many people in the world could do the same thing

          Is not the definition of 'rich'.

          I don't even know if you're now talking about people in Australia being rich, or Australia as a country being rich.

        • penguin286 on 20/07/2018 - 18:52
          +1

          @HighAndDry:

          I suppose I'd have to narrow it down to myself - just a young Australian relatively new into the workforce with all the basic needs sustained with 'decent' amount of things to afford.

          I see how the whole debate is more subjective than I thought

        • Jackson on 22/07/2018 - 22:53

          Actually there are 3 things that make you rich in Australia, the amount of assets you have, your ability to borrow money for your primary residence (and other smart things you can borrow money for) and the amount you earn, should you be able to save some of it or put it to paying off your loan for the second reason above.

        • HighAndDry on 23/07/2018 - 10:12

          @penguin286: The debate is certainly subjective, but you've also framed it very ambiguously, because how an individual's wealth is measured is not the same as how a country's wealth is measured.

          For example, a person's wealth is measured in assets, not income. But countries are almost always measured (objectively) in GDP (income) and not net assets, because countries last a lot longer than individuals and generally just don't have short or medium term cashflow concerns like an individual.

          On the other hand, you might actually be asking "Is Australia a prosperous country?" which is again a different question to whether Australia is "rich" or not. Decide what it is exactly you're asking, then frame that question more specifically, and you can avoid a lot of the subjectivity here and basically people talking past one another.

    • Franky23 on 20/07/2018 - 13:12
      +6

      Sometimes you don't need to win an argument.

      Other times you can upgrade to a new, younger girlfriend with greater earning potential. Then it makes it easier not to have to convince them of anything.

      • Meconium on 20/07/2018 - 19:30
        -4

        I hear you can get a brand new model who is a high yield investment for as little as $80k!

  • atris17 on 20/07/2018 - 00:04
    +51

    Show her a youtube of "American Student Loan Debt"

    Know an American whose debt that balloon over 100k, from 50k.

    And tell her, we have been paying for her since her birth:

    • Little to nothing Elementary and High School Fees
    • Subsidies Uni Fees
    • Public Healthcare !!!
    • Police, Fireman and Healthcare worker
    • CSIRO who invented "Wireless Internet"
    • Free ABC NEWS 24, Radio to keep the public inform
    • Working Roads, Hospital, Library, Airport, school, University, Electric Network, Water Network, Gas Network, Telecommunication network
    • Clean Water
    • Clean Cities
    • Australian Army
    • Telecommunication Infrastructure
    • Free Mental Help/ Nurse call line
    • Social welfare for the Poor, Sick, Disable, and the ppl who need a helping hand

    I am sure her Income Tax and Gst might cover the cleaning bill only for now Lol

    Be grateful, OZ is the lucky country

    • penguin286 on 20/07/2018 - 01:05
      +2

      Thanks! I could only think of a few off the top of my head but this list was what I was thinking

      • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:36

        Comparing Australia (or any other first world country) to the US is an exercise in irrationality. The US occupies a fairly unique position of being the (current) sole world superpower, and with it all the benefits but also expenses of that position - better trade terms, more diplomatic clout, higher military expenses, higher expectations of development aid, etc.

        • Nalar on 20/07/2018 - 21:19
          +3

          Compare Australia to Canada, much closer

        • R4 on 23/07/2018 - 15:05

          @Nalar:

          Yes, Australia is the closest nation to us in economic and social terms

    • Lysander on 20/07/2018 - 09:38
      +7

      How is OZ the lucky country? What you are describing above (save the Australian army, and ABS, CSIRO for obvious reasons) other countries have the same if not better, namely free uni education and lower housing costs.
      So how is Australian the lucky country as opposed to the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark etc.? I guess they must be superlucky countries then.

      You do know that that "lucky" country reference is used totally wrong, right, and in fact was originally not meant as a compliment and/or good thing?

      • MilkDrinker on 20/07/2018 - 11:16
        +5

        I would say OZ is the lucky country since it is basically a pile of resources. A first world country was built from the gold rush in the start of our creation, we didn't need a war to get it and we have abundance of natural resources.

        Those other countries you mentioned are amongst the best in the world and had a few hundred years to get to that point with their own special resources, Netherlands with their gas Denmark with their oil and Germany with their beer. Also they have some similar problems, like Denmark with the highest electricity prices in Europe.

        Also being a Jew in Germany back in 1940 or being part of Germany from 1944-88 was not so pretty. Worst part of Australia is probably atrocities on aboriginals, but unfortunately most countries did that :(

        We are basically the youngest child in a dysfunctional family

        • Lysander on 20/07/2018 - 11:56

          But that is the past. While important and it should never be forgotten in order to prevent repeats, your statement was about the present.
          And presently, other countries are a lot "luckier" than Australia due to lower living costs, higher standard of living, free education etc.
          You know that the "lucky country" reference is really negative and nothing to be proud of as it means that Australia did not do anything and work to achieve its wealth while other countries did.
          Kind of like someone who made millions through hard work and the other guy who wins the lottery.
          One is something to be proud of while the other one is not as that person did not contribute anything.
          Plus the countries mentioned have a lot more things than what you mentioned while Oz has none.
          Just to name a few things: car industry, high tech machine industry, pharmaceutical industry, medical diagnostics, building industry, building tools industry etc.

      • atris17 on 20/07/2018 - 15:39

        You make your own luck with all the given entitlement Oz gave me.

        Is what you do with those basic Rights that matter

        Sure, other countries have different policy. But Oz have to work with what it has in her deck of cards.

        Comparing yourself with other countries is like comparing yourself with entitle ppl and whining about it

        Coming from a family with poor and has very little

        I prefer to be given a good decent head start in life, rather then struggle in a 3rd world countries who is either unstable, don’t provide education, no healthcare etc

        You make your own luck

      • penguin286 on 20/07/2018 - 16:51
        +1

        Put it this way - if you were in line to come into the world and had equal chance to be any of the 7 billion people right now what are the chances you land in a country that gives you a job with a high amount of disposable income? I feel like most likely you land in a rural part of China or India where the monthly income is drastically lower than Aus

    • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:20
      +4

      Free ABC NEWS 24, Radio to keep the public inform

      Apparently not that inform…

      Also - most of the things you list are basics for any first world country. If we were comparing us to Bangladesh, you'd have a point.

    • idonotknowwhy on 20/07/2018 - 12:26

      This is the answer to the OP's question and is a great comment except the last sentence.

      The 'lucky country' refers the the fact that we have so many natural resources (lucky us). It also refers to the fact that even though we don't really do anything productive here, we're able to have all that ^ you mentioned, by simply digging up our resources and exporting them.

      "The Lucky Country" isn't a positive thing, we're stupid.

    • User166092 on 21/07/2018 - 08:06

      Australian Army

      We would get staunched in a war

      • RolandWaites on 22/07/2018 - 12:33

        1v1, pound-for-pound maybe, but wars aren't fought with masses of soldiers against masses of soldiers anymore.

  • Diji1 on 20/07/2018 - 00:05
    +21

    The largest businesses, who make much greater use of infrastructure than individuals, pay tax at a rate of less than 2%. Many of them pay zero.

    While this billions and billions of tax loss is occurring Liberal and Labour are cracking down on the poorest individuals in this country such as your GF to make them pay tax eg. the GST and not increasing income tax brackets in line with inflation.

    Is it any wonder she's pissed? She's literally paying for the wealthy to operate here.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2018 - 00:57
      +1

      Tax loop holes and how much your willing to spend to exploit them.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 20/07/2018 - 01:29
      +9

      She's literally paying for the wealthy to operate here.

      All companies are ultimately owned by people, who, if Australian residents, are subject to individual income tax. Double taxation is avoided by franking credits.

      The issue is with foreign ownership of lowly taxed companies.

      • havebeerbelywillsumo on 20/07/2018 - 01:43
        +2

        "All companies are ultimately owned by people"…..mostly those as rich as all get out OR indirectly through super funds, the common people make up a very small percentage of ownership so that is not applicable here as GF is not a high flyer.

        The issue is with lowly taxed companies/super-rich individuals and also politicians (on both sides) that have no idea or are nest feathering.

        Yes it has always been thus, but it seems now this has become a shade extreme at present.

        • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:22
          -1

          mostly those as rich as all get out OR indirectly through super funds

          …who still pay taxes. And I don't get poor people who complain about the rich not paying taxes. Even paying at same rates, they pay more tax than you ever will. And they pay at higher rates.

          Instead of being so entitled, maybe make more money - or if you can't - show some gratitude for those who do and are effectively paying a portion of the taxes that you use.

        • abb on 23/07/2018 - 10:14

          @HighAndDry:

          Even paying at same rates, they pay more tax than you ever will. And they pay at higher rates.

          Didn't Kerry Packer famously pay only $1 in tax?

        • HighAndDry on 23/07/2018 - 10:18

          @abb: Don't remember that, but I do remember he's famous for this line in a parliamentary committee hearing on the same subject:

          "I don't know anybody that doesn't minimise their tax. I'm not evading tax in any way shape or form. Of course I'm minimising my tax. If anybody in this country doesn't minimise their tax they want their head read. As a government I can tell you you're not spending it that well that we should be paying extra."

          And I agree 100%. Does anyone think the government uses money more efficiently than non-profits that you could voluntarily donate to?

          No - everyone thinks others should pay more tax. If anyone thinks they themselves should be paying more in tax, they can already donate of their own volition.

        • abb on 23/07/2018 - 17:52

          @HighAndDry:

          I see you've nicely ignored the point I was making :)

          Does anyone think the government uses money more efficiently than non-profits that you could voluntarily donate to?

          Well, yes. It would be foolish/impossible to have volunteers run our road, water, sewage, central banking, policing (, etc.) systems. They're natural monopolies and best run centrally. That's why we have governments.

          No - everyone thinks others should pay more tax. If anyone thinks they themselves should be paying more in tax, they can already donate of their own volition.

          Can you actually donate more tax? I don't think so.

          I also don't see that "donating" to accountants (many minimization schemes are costly, and only break-even if you're making quite a lot) is any better than "donating" to the g-man. I think that's a waste of money, and a simplified tax system with less "loopholes" would be a fairer result for everyone (the accountants that would lose their jobs might have a different opinion).

          There have been some great reviews conducted into the tax system with rational changes outlined, it's a shame no government ever pays them much notice and just makes some silly tweaks in-line with what their voter base wants.

    • AustriaBargain on 20/07/2018 - 02:45
      +4

      Those businesses have to keep the money in the business though right? Once it is paid to actual humans, whether it's the CEO or janitor, plenty of taxes greater than 2% will kick in one way or another.

      • mbck on 20/07/2018 - 08:31
        +1

        Wasn't there an article that showed its actually the people not businesses with the larger tax gap? Businesses were around 6bill mark, but people were 9.5bill mark. This are people who are claiming tax deductions, etc….

        • AustriaBargain on 20/07/2018 - 14:13

          When individuals are taxed, then the business needs to pay even more to stay competitive. Maybe the adjustment for the tax is not as much as the tax itself, but it’s still greater than 2%.

      • HighAndDry on 20/07/2018 - 10:37

        You expect basic financial knowledge on OzBargain? Especially from the kind of people who yell "But rich people/companies don't pay tax!"

        You have far more faith in humanity than I do.

    • c0balt on 20/07/2018 - 13:46

      The two things Diji1 loves spouting on this website are bad knowledge in tech (where he time and time again gives people the wrong advice/specs/industry standards), and far leftist propaganda.

      We literally have the highest corporation tax rates in the world and some of the highest personal income tax rates in the world and people are upvoting his comments? Anyone capable of using google to validate any of his claims shouldn't ever be upvoting his malicious lies.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2018 - 19:46

        Nah mate, it's an exaggeration to say we have some of the highest tax rates. Check out this peer reviewed fact check about it:

        http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-does-australia-ha…

        • HighAndDry on 23/07/2018 - 10:23
          +1

          No, "some of the highest" is true even by your link.

        • c0balt on 26/07/2018 - 10:20
          +1

          Your link shows exactly what I said, that we have some of the highest personal tax rates in the world.

          I don't understand why you would use that against the statement?

    • Viper8 on 21/07/2018 - 00:48
      +1

      Personal tax avoidance costs the ATO 3 times more than corporate tax avoidance. FACT.

      • frostman on 24/07/2018 - 08:20
        -1

        Personal tax avoidance costs the ATO 3 times more than corporate tax avoidance. FACT.

        Bro, please give me the number of your supplier, you must have the good stuff your smoking there.

        Guess you havnt heard of the Panama Papers? or perhaps Mossack Fonseca ring any bells? Perhaps you've never heard a bell ring before.

        Anyway, Mossack Fonseca had represented over 300,000 international companies, most of these were operating in ways that their (rich) owners exploited offshore tax regimes. There was a trail of $2Billion linked to Mr Putin alone, several Australian identities were uncovered. However the sad thing is that MF was only 1 of the firms busted for this, today as we speak there are many smaller ones doing the very same thing.

        So you can shove you're 'personal tax avoidance' up your nose, Joe Blow over-stating his tax reductions by $2,000 is not a drop in the water for this.

        • Viper8 on 24/07/2018 - 13:47

          Source: The Australian Taxation office.
          They've heard of all that and more, however it doesn't change the shear number of individuals all ripping the tax man off, which consequently ends up costing them 3 times more.
          But hey, you disagree based on your opinion shaped from some articles. You go ahead and ignore the statistical facts generated by the very body collecting the tax. which has more visibility than any other entity.

          Now tell me, who's smoking some good stuff here?

          Its not hard to see why: the average income in Aus is 55k, with almost 20 million people working.That's over 1 trillion dollars of personal income every year getting taxed (and avoided).
          Meanwhile the market cap of the entire ASX (that's 2327 companies!) is only worth just over 2 trillion, with revenue being significantly lower (less than half a trillion). There's simply less money to be taxed.
          The simple fact is there's less dollars avoided because they simply earn less. Now whether they avoid a larger percentage of their tax vs individuals is another debate, but this one is clear cut.

        • frostman on 24/07/2018 - 17:26

          @Viper8:

          You're only counting 'Companies' when there are also Businesses (and Sole Traders) at stake here.

          I only mentioned Companies to show you the large extent of the issue, however the fact of the matter is that many Sole Traders and Business owners dodge tax in many ways, the most simple way is via cash earnings, the more complex claim comes from dodgy invoices
          Then factor this with a business making over 200K profit / year then claiming 100% child rebate offers given his ATO-indicated annual income is only $85K.

          PAYG people can only (dodge) claim a very very small %

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