I work in retail as a casual sales assistant, I was demoing a phone, an Iphone 6, to a customer. Customer took the phone in hand and bolted out of the shop, I instinctively chased him without thinking. Thankfully someone was there to stop him and grab him by the bag, he gave up as I think he saw the security guard in front of him. He did not struggle nor did the person who held his bag roughly handle him. I personally did not touch the shoplifter other than retrieving the phone, the security was thankfully right in front of this as this incident unfolded and took him away. What are the laws regarding this situation? Should I get in trouble? My shift ended shortly after so I did not get to see the outcome of what had happened.
I Chased a Shoplifter down and Retrieved a Stolen Item (What Are The Laws Regarding This Situation? Am I in Trouble?)
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More importantly, phone is fine?
Phone is fine.
Thanks for taking this one. It was tough.
Not sure the exact laws but I imagine you'll just get a friendly chat to say thanks, but not to bother next time.
Used to work at a jewelry shop and we were instructed not to chase should someone steal something. If they pull a knife on your or what not, it's just not worth it ( and perhaps not covered by insurance if you get hurt out of the store )
Nice work though on the chase down!Pull a knife? Don't they all carry handguns, hammers, and machetes now?
Agree not worth it
My wife instinctively chased someone that took her bag
Guy turned around and went to stab her in the stomach, she blocked with his arm and now has a giant scarSo not worth the $200 in the wallet
Quite amazing she blocked the knife attack by using the thief's arm.
Jason Bourne's style.
In NSW at least you're fine. The risk you put yourself at though is that this guy could've turned around and stabbed you and you would be in a world of pain for the next few years, or you could've died. Your family would suffer. Your employer might not even back you up for doing so. You were risking a lot to retrieve a phone that is really of insignificant value to your company compared to the potential disastrous consequences of a madman fighting back.
Regarding the arrest itself it sounds fine https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/what-is-a-citi…
If you want to read the specifics read the legislation quoted there.
Sometimes you should stand by and do nothing, and sometimes you should intervene. For me, I would intervene if someone is being hurt only. Stuff getting stolen isn't worth making a citizen's arrest unless its your job.
Thanks! That's reassuring. Yes I do work in NSW aswell.I'll keep that in mind, I don't know what came over me but in the spur of the moment I just started moving. Didn't really stop to think unfortunately.
I work in retail as a casual sales assistant, I was demoing a phone, an Iphone 6, to a customer. Customer took the phone in hand and bolted out of the shop, I instinctively chased him without thinking.
this is a no, no.
them take it next time. report the event to management. sign a few forms and leave your shift in one piece. insurance will take care of the rest.
The thing is, it's a 2nd hand store. I don't think (Highly doubt) we have insurance for that. It's kind of a shitty process but its a job none the less.
I don't think (Highly doubt) we have insurance for that.
that would be the owners responsibility.
your responsibility is to stay calm, observe and report (a few more steps if they're armed). different companies may have different procedures, but they basically help you stay safe.
I doubt your employer would make an insurance claim for it. A second hand iPhone6 wouldn't be worth the excess on a commercial insurance policy and later premium rise on a retail store's insurance from having made claim/s. Most would have to self-insure small theft losses as part of doing business.
thats up to the owner, even if he has no insurance its not up to you to pay for the loss.
whooah was more pointing out that you are safe, dont chase someone down, who knows they may have a knife, belted your head,anything. rather have the phone gone than you hurt.
but good onya, yu wont be in trouble for what you did - and hopefully the shoplifter whacked his head on the police car door.
2nd hand store?
Maybe he was trying to steal his iPhone back?
LOL
That's a bullshit attitude that is unfortunately pervasive in this society. People should stand up for what is right, the OP should have chased that guy down, because it was the right thing to do. Doing nothing and standing by just means shit like this will happen again and again.
Workplace safety should be the number one priority of any civilised society. Employees that wants to play a hero can do so outside of work hours.
What a load of BS. This attitude is the same attitude that destroyed the UK. HR left wing rubbish. People are capable of making their own decisions, and calculating the risk. What the OP did was admirable, not risky, and more people should be like him. I personally would have tackled the guy to the ground, and stuck a few elbows in to teach him a lesson.
People are capable of making their own decisions, and calculating the risk.
Of course they can. That's after all their rights. However, they cannot do so while working and as an agent of the company.
I personally would have tackled the guy to the ground, and stuck a few elbows in to teach him a lesson.
Resorting to violence when an offender is running away is wrong.
@Burnertoasty:
The employees are representing the company that they work for. The company could be held liable for any actions or injuries or damages that their employees caused during an event like this.@whooah1979: No, it's not. That's hardly violence, and the guy is a thief. You are again trying to portray the perpetrator as a victim. He deserves whatever is coming to him.
@whooah1979: Bullshit, only the individual in liable, and short of causing the guy a serious injury, which wouldn't be justified, there is no way you would get in any kind of trouble for tackling a thief.
That's what we call free choice.
Employees aren't free to do what they like while at work. Any actions that may violate company policies may result in disciplinary actions.
@whooah1979: You need to take a long hard look at yourself and what you are saying. You are not arguing for what is right, you are arguing for mindless bureaucracy and wanton litigiousness.
No, it's not. That's hardly violence, and the guy is a thief.
Justifying sticking the elbow few times in another person because they allegedly stole an item to teach them lesson is a violent action.
only the individual in liable,
Victorious liability may not apply in op's case. But it could if someone were injured during a similar event.
@whooah1979: You need to live in the real world buddy. It's attitudes like yours which allow violent criminals to walk to street and laugh in the face of the justice system. Unfortunately, the left wing had the loudest voice, and they have infiltrated our legislative and political systems. Luckily the majority don't support these views.
@whooah1979: And you are trying to imply that this is somehow right? That criminals can persecute those who bring them to justice? Think about what you are saying.
@Burnertoasty and whooah1979
Alright, that's enough please.
It's attitudes like yours which allow violent criminals
I reread op. Nowhere did op refer to the customer displaying any form of violent behaviour during the event.
Advocating violence actions like striking someone with their elbows because they think they had it coming is a view nobody should have.
@whooah1979: sounds like you are an expert on the law. Can you please tell me more about "victorious liability" - is that when you make a victorious tackle but injure someone in the process?
victorious liability
Ohh. I meant to type vicarious liability. The spell checker/auto suggestion is set on high. Thanks for correcting.
@Burnertoasty: Yeah you're a real badass. Too bad if he's a drug addict with blood borne diseases and used sharps on his person and your heroic actions sees you die of AIDS.
@veritas_mendax: i was wondering the same thing. I was on his side until he spewed forth this claptrap.
@whooah1979: In this scenario they can considering if the business has any policy that may contradict legislation such as a citizens arrest. Government legislation is above company policy. You stand up for what is right. What's the saying… The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
@Burnertoasty: I'm with you mate, world is full of special snowflakes these days all wanting to either be the victim themselves or to virtue signal to who they believe are victims. Maybe if someone had taught the thief that there were consequences (not necessarily always violent ones) to antisocial behavior they wouldn't be out stealing other people's property.
When i was in the Army my troop caught one of their own guys stealing other people's stuff in the living in lines (barracks accommodation). He was attacked and hospitalised shortly after the stash of other peoples stuff was found in his room. MPs were called by somebody otherwise he might have been hurt even worse. When they did the investigation looking for the folks that attacked him, not a single person in the whole block would identify the attackers. Everyone that lived in the lines was punished together because they wouldn't dob in the vigilantes that took revenge on him, even the guy that called the MPs wouldn't giveup the attackers, said it was too dark to see who it was. They all knew who attacked him but nobody would give them up. They were all punished together because they wouldnt dob in their mates. Guy that did the thieving was moved to protective location after discharge from hospital, never came back to the unit, was charged then kicked out of the Army as part of his punishment for stealing.
Completely agree. This society is churning out a bunch of wimps who expect others to do the right thing without them having any personal responsibility.
Nothing to do with being a wimp. Most people would just rather get home to their family alive than to be injured/killed doing "the right thing" for a faceless business. My life is worth more than chasing down some petty thief with an iPhone.
Doing the right thing? Protect another human at the risk of bodily harm, sure!
Risking life and limb to try and prevent a minuscule loss that the retailer should already have insurance against (the fact that they don't is the owner's problem)?
As a whole, society seems to have learned better risk management. Leave the accosting of crims to the personnel trained and authorised to do so. :)
Have you ever seen what the aftermath of a knife attack looks like?
Since you're a hero, when this goes wrong, can we take the money required for medical treatment and rehabilitation out of your pay? How about your taxes? Insurance premiums?
@syousef: Either we all chip in for the medical treatment or we all chip in for the higher insurance premiums, either way we all pay for the 'victimeless crime' of shoplifting.
Do you have any idea whatsoever what rehab from a major injury costs?
Hint: It's several orders of magnitude more than a second hand iPhone 6 or the increase in premiums to cover it.
@syousef: US figures but $50 Billion a year for shoplifting. http://time.com/money/4829684/shoplifting-fraud-retail-surve…
This isn't the US. Thank @#$%!!!
It is easy enough to come up with an estimate that suits your bias or advantages your organisation
But if you want to play that game, the cost of gunshot and knife wounds in the US is 20 years ago was $126 Billion annually. U.S. $154,000 per gunshot survivor and U.S. $12,000 per cut/stab survivor.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9183471
I can only imagine the cost today.
@syousef: As you've ably pointed out thank F*&^ this isnt the US as we dont have to deal with as many whingeing snowflakes. One of our former Prime Ministers put people's safety ahead of their individual sense of entitlement and massively reduced the number of guns in circulation. With so many fewer guns accessible by criminals I challenge the applicability of your numbers to the situation. On a percentage basis we would have a significantly lesser number of people getting shot simply as so many fewer people have access to guns.
You aren't going to score any points using U.S. crime stats then complaining to me that my US crime stats aren't applicable.
My numbers are also 20 years old.
In any case there is more than financial cost. You'd have to be a complete ningbat to trade your health for an employer's used phone.
@syousef: Fair enough, I just hate to see some worthless dog get away with thieving other people's stuff. Anything delivering a bit of timely come-uppance to a lowlife like that is well deserved!
I am glad you wrote your comment. Seems lot of people are happy to see other being robbed and do nothing.
My own child could get robbed and I'd do nothing.
Now if someone were trying to hurt them, I'd be all over it.
@syousef: Wow, just Wow. You just stand there and stare if someone steals your child favourite soft toy?
I would be already over it ( I hope I would be fast enough ) on someone approaching them !No I'll get myself knifed while my kid is too young to fend for himself and I'm the provider for the family, all because my ego couldn't cope with a soft toy or phone or game or whatever being stolen.
Kid won't get to go to uni. Heck might end up homeless but at least I took down the thief. That's much better.
# brave
EYE ROLL
@syousef: Agree, the knife wielding psychopath scenario is a perfect reason to do nothing.
And if you would have three kids, and a wild wielding psicho has one of your kids? You let him take it, because you have to provide for the other 2?Which part of "Now if someone were trying to hurt them, I'd be all over it." did you not understand?
If you can't tell the difference between an iphone 6 and a child being kidnapped by a "wild wielding psicho" I don't think we can continue this conversation.
Agreed!
Understand that its a safety concern for staff on duty during the incident.
But if people are getting into trouble for doing the right thing from a legal perspective, then something is very wrong with the legal system.
More and more would commit crime and hope that the law somehow punishes the people who catch them… FMLAgree that getting into trouble if not breaking the law is going too far.
this kind of cowardly thinking is why western societies are turning to shit
It's not cowardly to value your life above the price of a second hand iphone 6.
The responses so far are so sad.
It is with this knowledge thieves thrive.
People may not agree but I think "Stand Your Ground" law needs to be implemented here.
OP's situation is the literal opposite of stand your ground.
I am referring to the scenario if the guy turned around and attempted to stab you, the "Stand Your Ground" law would allow you to demolish him.
But yes, probably not applicable to OP.
In that case you'd be legally within your rights (within reason) under self-defense in Australia.
However, I think the main argument here is that it's not worth getting yourself injured for the company's property when they probably 1) have insurance and 2) don't give a shit about their employees outside of legal obligations.
the "Stand Your Ground" law would allow you to demolish him.
not in nsw.
Yes. I agree. It's just so sad to see how things turn up.
One more thing the perpetrator could also sue you for "assault" or "false imprisonment" or something like that for manhandling him.
Can you explain this more? Genuinely interested.
If someone tried to stab me I can't knock them out?
If someone tried to stab me I can't knock them out?
You may at the very least use reasonable actions to halt an assault against you, your property or someone else's. Now where it gets complicated is how much is reasonable.
Let's say you jab the knife out of the offender's hand. They stop and runs away. Their assault has now been terminated. Self defence successful.
Now you start running after them, catch them and put them in a chokehold. These actions may under the crimes act be enough to see you cross from a self defence position to an attacker.
@whooah1979: That is pretty much the law.
I knew someone who got in trouble because he chased a intruder going into his house and pretty much knock the guy out. Don't know what happen afterward but he have to attend court.
@Kamsi: And I did read the news of a father killing the rapist assaulter of his daughter, caught in the act, and walk away free. We need more stories like this.
Or, in Germany, a fugitive rapist, who got found by the police [ some might say too late ], dead. They suspect the relatives of the girl got their hands on him first. Maybe they gave the relatives a 4H head start.After reading through this thread for quite some time, I'm curious on a when a combination of laws are combined, regarding the 'stand your ground' laws, what if you throw a punch but it kills him? or is one hit law reserved for king hits while intoxicated?
I don't understand why this is being negged (and the one above Pharos5)
A genuine reflection of how the society has changed is obviously doesn't matter to this person who negged.
I can only assume the negging person would like crimes to flourish unchallenged.
I think you need to actually understand what 'stand your gound' laws are.
In OPs case it would not be a 'stand your ground' situation and either way OP is legally fine.
Most people here are pointing out that practically he probably doesn't want chase people. A lot of people are brave mofos until they find out what being stabbed entails in both the short and long term.
you are gunna get hunted down by the mafia
Good on you for chasing him, though it really isn't worth it if anything happened to you.
I doubt you'll get any trouble because the shoplifter didn't get hurt. I'm not too sure about the laws but my coworker has told me that we have to be careful not to chase them too hard because if they trip and hurt themselves, we may get in trouble…Yes.
Good on you, but you shouldn't have done it. The cost of the device is not worth your life. The store is insured!
its not worth it to chase them down considering you're a casual. If it was your business then sure but as others said your safety is more important in your case
Cx
I personally did not touch the shoplifter other than retrieving the phone
you might be in trouble If you still have the phone…
Yes you should give them back the phone and ask them if there's anything else they would like from the shop ,saves any future confrontation.
On a side note , some of these bargains , the salespeople make you feel guilty , like you're ripping them off
'We usually make 1000% profit on you suckers ',pedaling our Chinese Crap ,
'and you just walk right around our camoflauged sharp stick pit trap'.
'No Fair'…I want what you've been smoking.
Don't smoke.
Just Brownies,
and mushrooms in my pancakesI want what your breakfast
I don't understand - why would you be in trouble? You didn't even touch the guy
We're in Australia, that's why he might be in trouble.
I seriously hope the thief was not from a minority, a refugee, or from the LGBTI.
While working in retail, please remember "No, touch, No chase" Policy, I saw a guy in Melbourne CBD stole a bag but luckily police caught him and found a knife with him, imagine if someone would have chased him he may have used that knife to harm the store person or whoever was chasing him. Even security is not allowed in many stores to chase any shop lifter once they are out of the shop.
It's also a bad look for the shop if an employee is seen chasing someone.
The shop will have insurance for the phone (if it's not recovered, and if it's not, the criminal caught will pay the selling price of the phone if it's no longer in a saleable condition)
You don't need to risk your own safety
Could potentially lose the shop customersI hate thieves.
There are so many in the Perth CBD that believe they can take what they want and they know they can just make a scene, scream this is their land, and challenge / threaten the guard or storepersons and they can just walk off (at worst without the merchandise).
I have seen then simply stuffing merchandise in their jackets, and I told the store people, only to be told to let them go.
To those saying insurance covers it….insurance will cover shrinkage, but they will simply transfer the costs to the next premium to be paid by the store which will transfer it to the consumer.
Everytime someone steals, we pay for it ultimately.
Sometimes I wish law breakers such as these lose protection of the law.
We really don't take theft as seriously as we should.
Looks like your employer needs to provide training regarding the appropriate response. Not because you did anything wrong but because you are not sure if you behaved correctly. Its up to them to train you how to respond. For example many people will tell you not to chase them etc but really your employer should inform you of this. I highly doubt that you will get in trouble at all as you didn't touch the person.
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You will be fine.