What to do - property nightmare.

sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:30
Last edited 24/04/2017 - 15:36

Hi all,

Keen to have some sensible advice or opinion.

My brother and I own a property in Sydney as 50/50 joint tenants. We bought the place 3yrs ago off the plan and he has no mortgage on it, but I do (I pay my mortgage payments). He works 2 days a week (self choice as he thinks life isnt about working and all about relaxing and yoga/pot). Althought I no longer live there i still pay half the bills - therefore subsidizing his lifestyle (my belongings still in the house, such as TV, bedroom /clothes etc).

Issues - The first 1.5yrs I lived in the place though for the past 8 months or so due to my inability to get him to sell the home, I moved into my GFs place and its sitting empty. I am NOT allowed to rent out my room (would achieve 400/wk) as he wants half the rent due to people intruding on his space (he knows how difficult he is therefore other people would intrude on him); I am not allowed to have my gf sleep over bcoz he will call the cops and believes she is causing these problems; I am not allowed to airbnb my room as "airspace" issue, I am unable to sell the unit bcoz it doesnt suit him. Also he gets the carspace because…why not.

he is listed on my mortgage due to the Joint tenancy issue (defaulting not an option) - he opens my mail and knows how much is owing although ultimately it shouldnt impact anything.

Now - what the heck can I do.

He is threatening to hold me financially hostage for another 2.5yrs until he feels ready though I need my money for other reasons. He is extremely greedy in general (takes offence if somebody ate one banana of his, separates his food when we lived together and wouldn't share a cooked meal, yet I have provided expensive items such as TV, Internet, espresso, furniture …generally anything of value), and will not sell as it doesn't suit him.

He wont turn up to court if I sued him therefore I will have to pay a solicitor each time this occurs and have inquired it would potentially cost 80-100k in legal fees (he will self represent). I cant find any legal precedence online other than im screwed.

The place would be worth $1-1.1m if sold - He has all of a sudden decided that as he put up the cash for the unit to be mortgage free and I have a mortgage on it, he is entitled to a greater share because doesnt have access to his money (bizarre). Also he offered to pay out my mortgage and give me a measly sum of cash (shortfall of approx $200k off the value) because this is "fair". Literally i need advice from anyone that has experienced this as he is a piece of work (he conned me into buying with him because he couldnt afford to buy alone and now that the value of real estate has increased, I can only summise that he cant afford to buy anything now).

Thanks

Financial

Comments

  • Diji1 on 24/04/2017 - 17:27
    +36

    he opens my mail

    This is illegal. Report to police using non-emergency phone line with evidence if possible.

    It sounds as if you are in an abusive domestic situation. This should also be reported to police since you are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars and the perpetrator is out of your control.

    • Krizy on 24/04/2017 - 18:55
      +10

      Why did this get negged? The guy's brother isn't just opening his mail, he's asserting authority that he doesn't have in other ways too. Controlling behaviour is a symptom of domestic abuse. Even if you can't prove he's opening your mail, it's illegal and you have the right to make a statement to the police about it.

    • photonbuddy on 24/04/2017 - 20:53
      +11

      While it is illegal, it is also VERY easy to stop. ~$60 for 6 months gets you mail redirection. He'll never see your mail then.

      • misu p on 25/04/2017 - 10:36

        The point is not to stop the email, but to report him.

        • photonbuddy on 25/04/2017 - 11:31

          There are plenty of reporting style options available, but from my reading, OP doesn't really want to go this route, because he'll get no support from family.

          Why turn down a very simple option which causes no clashes with his brother?

    • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 10:01
      +1

      And the police won't take it seriously

      its a civil matter… in regards to the mail issue

      • gromit on 25/04/2017 - 12:00
        +2

        no tampering with mail is NOT a civil matter, it is a criminal matter and carries fines or prison sentences.

        • sprsl on 25/04/2017 - 14:59
          +1

          For a person living in the same address? It's going to be a hard sell to say the least.

        • gromit on 25/04/2017 - 15:37
          +1

          @sprsl: Not going to be hard to sell at all. You can get away with "oh it was an accident" once or twice, but continually opening someone elses mail without their express permission is a commonwealth offense with harsh penalties. Would seem fairly easy to setup some basic camera surveillance and catch him in the act if he does it all the time.

  • Freitag on 24/04/2017 - 17:32
    +1

    Would he pay you half if you had a formal valuation done? Then the independent expert can decide what "fair" is.

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 17:42
      +1

      Short answer no because he thinks fair is around the 850k mark.. Up from 700k earlier. Fair is market rate.

      • Kangal on 25/04/2017 - 11:28
        +6

        If he thinks his half is worth $850k, then tell him to buy your half for $850k….

        If he says no, ask what he thinks your half is worth?
        When he says $350k for your share.
        Counter-offer, and tell him you are buying his half for $350k…

        Easy-done.
        And if he refuses, tell him he would be much more comfortable living in a apartment all by himself, because you are under financial burden, so you must move back in to the apartment and must evict him because your gf is pregnant and the passive pot smoking is harmful to the baby causing plenty of genetic defects.

        I doubt he will want to go outside and smoke pot everyday, and I doubt he will pay you $400/week to pay for your own apartment.
        So he will be forced to change, or forced to move out and do his recreational activities on his own.
        Fight fire with fire…. be annoying/have a spine.

        If that doesn't work, swallow the hard pill, pay for a damn lawyer, and take his hipster butt to court.

  • drfuzzy on 24/04/2017 - 17:43
    -3

    First mistake was buying tenants in common.

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 17:44

      Was joint tenants.

      • CLoSeR on 24/04/2017 - 19:02

        Tenants in common is the better way to buy, that was the right decision. Joint tenants is for married couples/partners; as joint tenants the last surviving owner will own is absolutely.

      • Providence on 25/04/2017 - 22:04

        joint tennant. (Unless you're both smoking pot).

  • RandomNinja on 24/04/2017 - 17:50
    +9

    It's probably reasonable for you to stop paying for your share of the bills when you no longer live there. When your brother's living costs go up, he may be more open to discussion with you. Would also recommend removing all of your property so he can't hock them to pay 'your share'.

  • ChooChooChooseMe on 24/04/2017 - 17:54
    +12

    If hes gonna be petty then you can be too. When he's at work just put a lock on your bedroom door and put everything in there. Put the modem in there too so he cant use the internet. Redirect your mail by opening a post office box, you can get 6 months redirection free. Also, if you have any utility bills in your name just cut him off at least then you can reduce the bills down to just mortgage repayments.

  • MessyG on 24/04/2017 - 17:57
    +17

    I think the first step you need to take is to get your mail sent elsewhere - he doesn't need to know about this as you can ring up/do it online. Start by depriving him of information. Second thing is document every conversation you have/have all conversations over email, starting now. This is going to take a long time to resolve. Is there any reason why you can't sell your half on the open market?

    Thirdly if he's a heavy pot smoker and only working two days, I'll put money on him dealing drugs so see if you can get any evidence to pass onto the cops.

    And finally, who effing cares what he wants? You can rent out your half to whomever you want, he's not entitled to any of it. Find some obnoxious students who don't give a sh*t about sharing with a spoilt brat, rent it to them for cheap so it drives him nuts and he'll change his tune.

  • PJC on 24/04/2017 - 18:22
    +7

    and have inquired it would potentially cost 80-100k in legal fees (he will self represent)

    You too can self-represent.

  • CLoSeR on 24/04/2017 - 19:03
    +3

    Buying with family, first mistake. Did you have a legal contract drawn up to go with the purchase, as to what happens if one party wants to sell, etc? This is usually something that is part of a tenants in common purchase as it will specify percentage of ownership,etc.

    • Franc-T on 24/04/2017 - 23:29
      +3

      Not always a mistake, I co-owned property for 20 years.

      • CLoSeR on 25/04/2017 - 07:43
        +1

        Yes, depends on your family I guess.

    • HoneyComb on 26/04/2017 - 10:21
      +1

      depends on family. co-ownership in asian families is pretty norm and most don't end in shit fights.

      • forever saving on 26/04/2017 - 19:16

        Did you just assume my trousers?

  • RiseAndRuin on 24/04/2017 - 19:14
    +1

    a few options off the top of my head:

    1- offer to buy your brother's half, it'd probably end up being cheaper and less stressful than suing him to sell, although you might want to try to negotiate a lower price anyway, in the spirit of ozbargain :)

    2- you don't need to move in, but you can certainly have friends over/party whenever you feel like it, which I guess it would be when it would piss him off the most. after a couple of months of this treatment, try again with option 1. if that doesn't work, or if the price he'd be willing to pay is still too high, try another round of option 2.

    • raging on 25/04/2017 - 10:55
      +1

      Yup, agreed, if he reckons it worth 850k, buy his half out.

  • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 19:15

    treat it like a rental, charge him half market rent, he pays electricity, gas and you both pay half strata, council rates, water bill etc

  • Ughhh on 24/04/2017 - 19:18
    +4

    Tbh I don't think you should be giving yourself legal advice since I assume you are not an expert in that field. You could do more damage than you think. Go see a lawyer. Your brother obviously thinks you're a fool who can be pushed over, hence winning all this time. He needs to know you're serious.

  • endotherm on 24/04/2017 - 19:38
    +53
    • Get your stuff out so he can't hold them to ransom or damage them.
    • Stop paying utilities. If he wants electricity/water, he will have to pay for it all, especially if it is in his name. If it is in your name, cancel the lot.
    • Get a real estate agent in and get them to take photos etc in order to rent your half out. It doesn't matter what suits your brother, you are a legal part owner and entitled to do what you want with your half. This should send the message that you are serious.
    • Demand your half of everything including the sale price. His warped idea of what he thinks is fair, or that his "cash" payment is more powerful than the banks money from your mortgage is just delusional. The only place this works is in his head, and in yours if you let him get away with it. Don't let him try to put one over on you and don't make any concessions.
    • If you are getting nowhere, as mentioned above, just advertise for multiple students to move in and share your space. Who cares what he wants! Charge $1 a week to encourage the cheapest/desperate types to apply (leave yourself the option to terminate the agreement at short notice to get rid of them when the plan works). Your brother will get pissed off so fast, he will either agree to your terms or want to sell up himself.
    • Ahbal on 24/04/2017 - 19:44
      +7

      There is that one post in every forum thread that makes the whole thing worth scrolling/reading through. This is one of them. +1

    • MessyG on 24/04/2017 - 20:13
      +6

      Agree great post.

      i just wanted to add that if the above is too confronting i.e you don't want to deal with him directly, appoint someone to act on your behalf like an agent. Or a bikie.

  • dd22qq on 24/04/2017 - 19:41
    +2

    I know you're not after what-you-shoulda-done advice, but people need to be really careful when combining finances and friends/family; they stand to lose out on two counts.

    I'd suggest that you're both unlikely to sort this out amicably between yourselves so it will probably need to involve some sort of arbitration process. Is there someone you both trust, who is fair and balanced enough to persuade your brother to see reason?

    If this starts down the legal road it's likely to become very costly very quickly. Good luck with it all.

  • robbyjones on 24/04/2017 - 19:48
    +1

    Sounds like a big sorry mess. I know this is family and that complicates things however when it comes down to it it's about money. Years ago I had an issue with an employer that caused me a lot of stress, I sought legal advice and my lawyer said it was almost impossible for my employer to win their case but the stress of it all had me in bed with the covers over my head. In the end I walked away and whilst now I wish I had taken the mongrels to court I just didn't have it in me at the time and I don't regret my decision. My advice is negotiate a fair amount for him to pay you, pack your stuff and walk away, life is too short.

  • kipps on 24/04/2017 - 19:51
    +9

    You can go to court to get orders for the sale of this house as a joint tenant. It is the easy legal way to resolve it, when other methods fail. See a lawyer.

    Sever the joint tenancy ASAP so that he doesn't get title if you die.

  • JIMB0 on 24/04/2017 - 22:22

    Sounds like a job for Jerry Springer

  • Randxyz123 on 24/04/2017 - 23:13
    +2

    Legally it's your house too. Tell him to get over himself. For one thing tell him if you aren't living there tell him he can

    1. Buy your share out for a agreed price.
    2. Pay you rent to live in the house

    Get a P.O box setup and send it to your GF's. Then you need a court order for him to be out.

    I would stop paying for electricity / gas. Call the companies, tell them you don't live there anymore and he's there by himself. Change the name on the account to his. If he doesn't pay then it will at least mess up his credit rating.

    Send all this to him in writing and

    I have a little legal experience. You need to get legal advise ASAP. Go to mediation. Come to a legal agreement. If he is still living there, get a contract drawn up that says what he has to pay you p/m for rent and that you can rent out the other room.

    Get an estate agent in, get them to do 2 valuations for you.

    1. House valuation.

    2 How much you could get in rent.

    Then ask for half, make sure he actually pays and get the f out.

    In all honesty selling your half sounds like the best option. But for god sakes go and get your stuff like clothes.

    What he wants / thinks about people "invading his space" means nothing.

  • itstuan on 24/04/2017 - 23:14
    +1

    your brother is F up and you need to go see a lawyer and work out your options. They won't give you proper advice over the phone and there's money to be paid. But its small compare to your headache and money you will lose if you let him have his way.
    So act now or never.

  • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 23:23
    +14

    1. Start taking responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming your bro for everything.

    2. Get a PO Box and ensure all your mail goes there. Do it tomorrow.

    3. See a lawyer about unilaterally severing the joint tenancy using s 97 Real Property Act 1900 (NSW), thereby creating a Tenancy in Common. Only the Lord knows why you two made it a Joint Tenancy in the first place.

    4. Get a court order to sell the lot. Yes, that means lawyers, but it's not that complicated so stop whinging - you very obviously haven't seen anyone yet. Hopefully he won't show up to court, or will be self-represented - that'll speed things up. Conveyancing Act 1919 (NSW) Part 4 Division 6 covers this kind of crap. Your bro will probably just make you an offer once matters get this far.

    • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 17:46
      +1

      • Talk to the lawyer about the principle residence exemption when it comes to capital gains tax. You may not need to move back in, but it might help. You may wish to leave the bills in your name for now, assuming they are in your name, in case the ATO asks for them.

      • It's a $1.1 million asset. WTF are you doing listening to some whacko on OB instead of getting professional advice?

      • I don't want you touching anything i'm eating cos you've got germs, and i don't want your germs. OK?

      • What are your tedious domestic entrails doing in my head. Get out of my head ffs - i need room for real useful stuff, like how i'm going to fly my new quadcopter at the park when i know it's fully illegal.

      • When this is all over, and you've got a big wad of cash in your back pocket, inflated by the gyrations of the Sydney property market, quite possibly tax free, don't forget to thank your bro as you're snorting all that quality coke while i'm copping a fine for flying my new quadcopter.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 21:14
      +1

      1. Start taking responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming your bro for everything.

      2. Get a PO Box and ensure all your mail goes there. Do it tomorrow.

      3. See a lawyer about unilaterally severing the joint tenancy using s 97 Real Property Act 1900 (NSW), thereby creating a Tenancy in Common. Only the Lord knows why you two made it a Joint Tenancy in the first place.

      4. Get a court order to sell the lot. Yes, that means lawyers, but it's not that complicated so stop whinging - you very obviously haven't seen anyone yet. Hopefully he won't show up to court, or will be self-represented - that'll speed things up. Conveyancing Act 1919 (NSW) Part 4 Division 6 covers this kind of crap. Your bro will probably just make you an offer once matters get this far.

      IANAL so I can't quickly assess the credibility of your advice (and I'm sure as heck not going to spend my time personally verifying it), but it sure sounds damn good!

      +1

      • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 22:17

        I've independently assessed my credibility and given i can't spell proper like there's a bit of cred isoo IMHO.

  • Kunalk222 on 24/04/2017 - 23:39
    +2

    First of all speak to laywer ask them do you need your stuff in the aptm
    Secondly talk to ur brother and tell him that you need the cash and therefore you want to sell it.
    If he choses not to sell it and offers you money 350k then ask how he is going to finance that 350k considering banks won't lend him
    Also try to negotiate for 400-450k and bite the bullet as legal fees will cost you more than 100k

  • smit0847 on 25/04/2017 - 02:32

    Christ what a mess. I assume your parents aren't around for any of this? Your brother sounds like he needs a clip around the ears.

    1. Move yourself and any of your belongings out of the house, cancel any joint utilities etc.
    2. Redirect mail.
    3. Sell your share of the house.
    4. If Brother doesn't like it tell him to GGF.

    How did he manage to pay off his half of the house only working 2 days per week? Where did he even get the deposit if he smokes all his income?!

    • Bnjam3 on 25/04/2017 - 06:56
      -1

      I was wondering the same thing. How did he manage to pay for half the house if he cant bother to work? Sounds like very rich guy to afford paying in cash.

      • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 10:04

        Drug Dealer
        Simple as that
        these kind of pricks need to be locked up

        • PJC on 25/04/2017 - 10:16
          +1

          That was my initial reaction but OP apparently is unaware of him dealing. I'm also having difficulty with …

          he was paid out a redunancy and saved some cash from a previous property sale

  • HeWhoKnows on 25/04/2017 - 08:08
    -8

    No one can advise you here. This is a personal issue between you and your brother. Brotherly love ha ha. You need to sort things out with your brother. Sorry
    PS Next time don't rant so much. Keep the issue short and sweet please

  • cybapete on 25/04/2017 - 08:51
    -1

    get a post office box and send all your mail there so he can't read it
    if you want to be sneaky redirect all the house mail there and then you can read HIS mail or just give it to him opened to mess with his head

  • cybapete on 25/04/2017 - 08:56
    +1

    i wonder what the situation is with utilities can the OP get all the bills in his name like telephone, electricity, water etc cut off so the brother will have to sign up for new accounts and pay for it all himself?

    p.s. to OP you need to make your brother's life harder not easier i know this is hard but if you are a doormat people will walk all over you it's human nature

  • marc86au on 25/04/2017 - 09:07

    I don't have much knowledge of how the legal side of things work, but if he is self representing could you not get some legal advice on your rights etc. then self represent also?

    If you are concerned about moving out your property, why not move out your good items and replace them with free/giveaway furniture from Gumtree?

    As someone else mentioned opening your mail is definitely illegal, let him know if he continues to do so you will go to the police.

    • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 09:37
      +7

      Yeah don't seek advice in a forum where people usually give advice, that's just silly.

      • [Deactivated] on 27/04/2017 - 09:30

        It's called Ozbargain, not Dr Phil.

        • khomeini on 27/04/2017 - 13:31

          I thought we were a family here at Ozbargain.

          We look after our own!

  • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 09:36

    Give him a bill for all the bills you've paid for him.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 25/04/2017 - 10:23

    Sorry to hear about your situation dude - But in all honesty i know he is your brother but to go into such a big investment with a pot head is always a risk.

    If he is willing to pay you out you will need to accept you wont get exactly want it is worth due to the fact that YOU want to sell your share and he doesnt want to BUY you out.

    I would get 3 independent assessor 1 you supply 1 he supplies and 1 you both appoint to value the property get the average price of the property and divide it in 2 HOWEVER you will need to also calculate roughly what sales fees (ie agent conveyancer etc) would cost if you both sold it today and minis that from your half and that is what you get after any mortgage costs.

    So if it is worth 1 million just roughly i'd say your share would be around the 475k however your brother does not have to agree to this but it is the fairest solution

    I wish you the best because i've heard of similar things like this happening to friends of my mine and imo no amount of money is worth destroying your family

    • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 22:57

      Great advice up until this point:

      imo no amount of money is worth destroying your family

      People would and have paid money to destroy their family.

      Unfortunately, the sheer circumstance of progeny does not guarantee even an indifferent relationship.

      • Trying2SaveABuck on 26/04/2017 - 11:04
        +1

        I know but you don't buy a house with your sibling thinking it is going to end up like this.

        Maybe im only school and believe nothing is more important then family but thats just me

        • Scrooge McDuck on 26/04/2017 - 11:21
          +1

          You must have a nice family. :)

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 25/04/2017 - 10:37
    +2

    On a side note i agree with your brother not letting you rent out the room it is half his property too and you have chosen to move out with your girlfriend if you want to rent out your room and make it uncomfortable for him.

    However if you are not living there the only bills i'd say you should be contributing too are rates, insurance and your half of the loan.

  • PAPower on 25/04/2017 - 11:18
    -1

    Sorry to hear but I've been in a terrible situation before, although not my flesh and blood but close enough to be called family.

    My advice to all of these situations is you need to be calm all the time, negotiation will yield the best result.
    Ultimately, if that way doesn't work out for you, watch Marco Polo, the episode where Kublai confronted Ariq and do the same to your brother.

    —peace—

  • Yola on 25/04/2017 - 12:12
    +1

    As Dr. Phil says you teach people how to treat you. What have you taught your brother? That he can do whatever he wants. Even if your brother agrees to pay you out, whatever amount, it sounds like he does not have enough money to do so and you will continue to have issues with trying to get the money and be tied to him for years. Even if legal fees were to be $100,000 I think this would be worth it because this is the only way you will get the money/property. Also the years it will take to resolve will cause much stress for you and your relationships. How does your girlfriend feel about all this, I know I would not be happy. I would also change the mail arrangements, cancel the utility accounts and move furniture. That you have not taken such simple/free/inexpensive steps suggests you have issues standing up to him. Yet another reason to outsource this to layers. You are very lucky that your money is growing due to Sydney real estate prices, it could have been in a loosing asset such as a business. At least it sounds like your family will support you. I would make another post asking for recommendations for reasonable Lawyers. Section 66G is obviously designed for this situation and it should just be a matter of following the process. As others have stated the fact that your brother is under the influence of drugs and cannot be bothered with legal processes should work to your advantage. At the very least, like any bully once he sees that you mean business and have engaged lawyers he may be more willing to negotiate. But I would ONLY agree to a sale unless he has half a million in cash, based on what you said he will renege on making payments and continue to make your life a misery. After this have nothing to do with him.

  • dojomojo on 25/04/2017 - 13:10
    +1

    What does it say on the property title - joint tenants or tenants in common? This will impact your options…

  • GregMonarch on 25/04/2017 - 14:16
    +1

    Have known such people. He's a freeloader and will never change unless forced to. He's quite happy with the way things are and will do it forever. None of the antagonism suggested here will have much effect either, with zero lasting effect, except perhaps for him to find ways to make you even more miserable.

    First thing I would do is sign up at www.propertyinvesting.com - Explain the situation, state area property is, ask for advice and suitable recommendations for a genuine and effective lawyer/solicitor. None of them are cheap, but the situation as you describe it is unwinnable without one and at least you will know they are trustworthy. And you're already losing, and would lose thousands more anyway whatever you do, such as selling to him cheaper.

    I also wouldn't be doing things like selling off goods, moving them into your room. Not yet anyway. Not unless the lawyer/solicitor recommends that. You don't want anything to come up later that will paint you anything but roses and butterflies to a judge/court.

    I would also buy a spy watch, a spy pen that sits in your pocket, and a spy keyring - and turn them all on to record any conversations you have. Don't argue - keep calm - just state facts for the same reason above, getting admissions. Check later you did and if not think about how to swing the conversation so you do. Start from the beginning like it's day one so people can hear/see a full picture. Lay it all out in facts. We did this originally to help you out, you've done this, prevented me doing that, I've given you every chance and you've tried to remove every right I have to fair use of a property I half own. So this is your heads-up to wake up to yourself and work with me - I want out - and I WILL have it, whatever the cost. State he was prepared to rip you off financially anyway, so you consider that you whatever that difference lost anyway - that because of how he's treated you (and by default your own family) that you may as well waste it on solicitors, and point out that he'll have to get a full time job, or, will have to pay his own fees out of what he receives when the property is sold.

    Don't back down, don't listen to promises things will change, because they won't. He's proven he can't be trusted to be reasonable and you're selling whether he likes it or not, whatever the cost to yourself personally, because it would cost far more in the long run.

    Talking about these costs he'll eventually realise it's going to cost him far more to keep fighting. But whatever - state if he's prepared to flush it away in a losing battle - that's his choice. You have a job, he doesn't, etc. - has left you with no other choice, so he'll have to change his lifestyle far more than you will.

    Get admissions of everything like him working cash in hand. State them on the recording and unless he denies you can perhaps mention them in court statements, mentioning each time you have recorded admissions of such. Most judges are not impressed by bludging, drug-adled, cheats.

    You might choose to send a short letter to his 'employer' explaining the situation and saying it's not how you wish to do things, but WILL be informing taxation/centrelink whatever if your solicitor advises to and it means you get free of your freeloading sibling. This will bring pressure to sell from other people that could be affected - especially if the guy stops giving him work due to fear of what taxation might do to his business.

    Save them in at least two locations (HDD and CD) in case something goes wrong, and transcribe it along with time marks at least every five minutes, so you can find important bits if needed later.

    Doing this yourself will mean far less time the solicitor has to spend on it, thus saving money. Even if you don't use the actual recordings, it will be useful for anything you have to write to explain the situation, and remind you of gems you would have otherwise forgotten.

    The reason for having all 3 types is different audio and video quality, different angles to perhaps show yourself in the case of the keyring by sitting it on a shelf or coffee table facing both of you (the right one will have a wide angle lens), and in case one recording fails for whatever reason.

    These can be had quite cheap. The watch for example can be had for as little as $20-$25 if you only want to record for about 15-20 minutes. (They exaggerate their recording times.) Or you can pay more and get one that records for a longer time. I think I paid $70 for one that DEFINITELY does 40 minutes.

    Next we'll have armchair experts saying you can't record. But I'm pretty sure you can if it's your own home and especially if you're included in the conversation. Pretty sure you can record in a public space without anyone's permission too. e.g. If it were a park. Nevertheless check these with a solicitor. And even if it's not, you'll still have it for an accurate record. "I advised the situation has become untenable so I wish to sell, he stated this to me, he did this (same thing), etc." and state you these are his exact words you have on a recording should the judge wish to confirm.

    If a face-to-face will only turn into a shouting matching, dragging you off-track, where you can't go through your reasonable conversation, then simply put it in writing. And in that case you would state you refuse to discuss it in person any longer and why (you consistently shout over me, threaten, etc. and are always unwilling to even meet me part way) - so send a letter to my solicitor. He won't like his situation being turned upside down, and has no problem making life difficult for you, so he may even start telling lies about what you did, claiming you hit him, who knows. So cut all contact - it all goes through solicitors from now on, to protect you.

    If nothing else it make him realise you're not giving in this time, that he's pushed too far, and he WILL lose unless he gets legal advice and moves things along. You could even include that in the letter - as if to say, had things all your way for long, you've burned your bridges, time to be an adult and start thinking of the way that's going to cost you the least, because after the disgusting way you've treated me, I'm content to spend whatever it takes in court to remove this burden - if you have any sense you will do the same, or come out with far less at the end than if you just worked with the situation you've created.

    Goes without saying, but when you get free, never be sucked in again. Time for him to grow up, pay rent, get a real job and support himself instead of working as little as possible and smoking dope all day. Idiot has destroyed his own easy life. Do it whatever it costs, to get your MIND out of the gaol he's created.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 23:10

      Excellent advice but to be fair, the brother does have a job and has provided for his own housing.

      • GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 16:25

        Well, yes. But only just enough work to feed and entertain himself; meanwhile stealing from the rest of Australia who pays tax (people like this pay less, so government steal more money from the rest for roads, etc.); leeches food and various other things causing a financial burden and mental strain on his own brother, lol.

        Also, I was going to add two things to what I wrote above, but can only think of one atm:

        Pay a few hundred $ to get the property valued by a "quantity surveyor" - or even two - so he can't argue over the valuation. The OP can ask for a good one on that site. They take many things into account, compare prices of similar properties, increase the value for improvements compared to other properties, reduce its value for faults, etc. When people do this a property price isn't left up to a guessing real estate agent, who salivate at getting you to sell at auction where they also get charge $$$ in advertising, only to pressure the vendor into buying, then claiming: "Sorry, thought it was worth more, but you'll have to meet the market." (Properties correctly valued/priced often sell within 10 days.)

        OH, I remember the second point now… I was re-reading the OPs comments. Something he said made me think: The solicitor would probably recommend a preferred plan to follow anyway. But part of later showing the court (if necessary) that he is being perfectly reasonable and his brother is being an obstructive, unreasonable leech, is to state in writing his reasons why and that he wishes his brother buy him out, that he's giving him 3 months space to do so and find a place to rent (having had ample time before this, said he would make attempts, and has made no such efforts to date), it's causing financial burden, etc., and if he doesn't hasn't done so within those 3 months according to the solicitor's recommendation (which shows he's serious and it's out the brother's ability to manipulate the OP any longer) - he will begin legal action forcing the sale of the property.

    • trongy on 26/04/2017 - 07:52

      Definitly get legal advice before doing a secret recording. This page by a law firm suggests that it is not prohibited in some states it is prohibited in NSW - the state where the house in question is.

      If the recording is legal, wouldn't the voice recorder app on a mobile phone be sufficient?

      • iratepirate on 27/04/2017 - 14:28

        It is lawful under certain circumstances in NSW. One of those is when you are recording the abuse of a respondent in an application for an AVO. If these recordings are made lawfully they may be communicated to your lawyer.

        I have personally used covert recordings in a court case in NSW. I used smart voice recorder on android - worked a treat.

        When I'm in QLD I always record any confrontations as it's a one party state.

    • sydsm on 26/04/2017 - 08:29

      I like the advice - also agree will probably require advice prior to recording conversation.

      • tajid on 26/04/2017 - 12:36

        another property forum, propertychat

      • GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 16:31

        Get the advice, but as I said, it's mainly for YOUR ability write down exactly what is said. Whether you mention that you recorded or not is up to the law in your state, solicitor's advice etc. I had to deal with a legal matter and did this very thing. It made it far easier than trying to remember (and missing) things the other person had stated. When you say in court: "Person 2 told me that person 1 said…" it's called 'hearsay'. When YOU say the person said it, it carries some weight - but you can't write it down, if you cannot remember it. By the way… I forgot that most phones can record, can download an app that can, or in the case of apple gear - be jailbroken to record both sides of any phone calls. It needs to become legal paperwork at this point though I think - so he can't twist anything later. Speaking and reasoning hasn't worked. It's time to deal with it fairly, honestly, but legally. Most people that will drag things out for years, will realise it's time to cave once things get serious.

        Btw… This doesn't mean people cannot delay. e.g. I've been the in situation where a judge told the other side to present xyz at the next court date. They didn't. He told them again. They didn't again. He told them again. They didn't again - and the judge then turned against ME instead of slamming them, at this rate there's not going to be any money left, so negotiate. (I had been ready to the entire time. It was the other party that was just out for everything their way.) This is why you need a (recommended) solicitor's plan. It's possible the first one or two steps of that plan are enough to end it. I mean, heck - he's at home 5 days a week - it's not like he doesn't have time to do the reasonable thing and find a rental, and put the property up for sale (which wouldn't even need to happen if he made any kind of reasonable concessions to the OP).

        • sydsm on 26/04/2017 - 16:38

          Thank you. valuable.

        • GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 16:50

          @sydsm: Oh - and you could also have a second person with you during any discussion. If he's alone, not expecting it to be recorded, you have person #3, plus the recording…

          Also when you give a set time before legal avenues begin, stick to it. i.e. "Oh yeah, I know I only have 3 days left, but I'm going to view a rental in two weeks - you see the current tenants won't allow inspections before they move out. So give me a couple more weeks?" He will test, drag it out, hoping it will be easier in your mind to fall back into the same rut. NO.

          Don't be nasty, but get a plan and stick to it. Fairly but firmly. Honestly, everyone I've know that was concerned about solicitor's costs… most would say afterwards: Yeah, I paid $$$, but it got rid of the stress and burden so I could move forward. Which otherwise would never have even begun.

          He has everything the way it suits him. Why would he change? He won't unless you remove that choice.

  • pebee47 on 25/04/2017 - 14:22

    Tenants in Common can sell their specific % of the property. Joint tenants own equal undivided shares, including utilities supplied to the property. I presume elec, gas, phone etc are in the name of "Mr Nice and Mr Nasty Owner", meaning any debt belongs to and can be recovered by creditors from either party.

    He is listed on the mortgage so legally bound to pay it if you can't.

    You have equal rights to access. As an owner I'd suggest you have every right to entertain whoever you wish without causing civil/public disturbance, or illegal actions

    Keep records of all items purchased by you for shared use, Utilities payment shares by both of you, and any conversations regarding money.

    He is pulling the "I've already paid my share so have more rights than you" card. You have also paid your share of the property, only by using money borrowed from another source.

    Having his name on your mortgage actually puts you in the best seat. If you can't pay the mortgage, either he has to pay or you sell the property. Mortgagee sales regularly achieve the lowest results, with the mortgage being paid out first, and you and your brother each getting 50% of the balance. Who is the person who has lost most then? If he wants a bigger slice, deduct the utility payments you have made whilst not living there (the "absentee tenancy" of the bedroom is paid for via your share of the annual Council rates)

    You could start asserting your rights by issuing him with a Solicitors letter informing him that his use of an illegal substance at the residence shall not be tolerated, and if it persists you may take the matter to the appropriate authorities

  • aurotaro on 25/04/2017 - 14:40
    +1

    Is he Vegan?

    • sydsm on 26/04/2017 - 14:00

      LOL - no but he may as well be

  • TheWizardOfTheOZ on 25/04/2017 - 14:59

    Hi,

    This may work.

    If you are paying mortgage on the property, chances are that the bank is holding this property as collateral.

    You can choose to default on your mortgage. The bank would take away the collateral and sell it at auction. You might walk away with 50% of the sale minus outstanding mortgage amount.

    Maybe have a check on what it would do to your credit score in the next few years and talk to your bank regarding this option.

    Cheers mate

  • KLoNe on 25/04/2017 - 15:27

    Your story is like every brother and sister in Primary School… and you bought a house with him? OOOOKKKKKKKKKK

  • gravel on 25/04/2017 - 17:05

    It is unlikely that any court will force the sale of the property. They take the view that you entered into the arrangement with open eyes, not under duress and of the mental capacity to understand what you were doing. The fact that he is difficult and an a hole is irrelevant. Unless he is damaging the property or otherwise doing something that might cause you a financial loss they will leave the arrangement alone. This is not definitive but likely. It sounds like there is no lease in place, written or otherwise that gives your brother an exclusive right to occupy, in fact the opposite is the case. You therefore have the right to move in with your GF and pets ( as long as they are permitted in the building ). The only caveat here is if he could prove that your GF or pet is harmful to him or if there is a pre existing agreement that you would not do that or if the property is not large enough to allow him to live normally ( unlikely he could prove that ). Besides the onus would be on him to then take action again unlikely. Force his hand, if he likes to chill out you can make that impossible for him. As for B&B that's a grey area if it's allowed by the BC you may have a right to do it but I suspect he would have the right to vet the renters and he would just say no to everyone.

    • GregMonarch on 26/04/2017 - 17:53
      +3

      Sorry I don't agree because divorce cases prove otherwise. And this would likely be treated similarly to a divorce.

      The court would ask if either wishes time to arrange a loan to buy the other out. If neither does, the court would rule the property is to be sold. The solicitors would present a list of what's owed on the property, proof of ownership of any chattels. And the judge would set what percentage goes to each person upon sale.

      Also it's almost universal (except perhaps among advanced investors), that the property itself is the main collateral for the loan. So the bank currently owns half the property - not the OP. The OP doesn't own his half until he makes the final repayment. Courts rule properties be sold upon loan default too.

    • Miker82 on 27/04/2017 - 22:01

      This is not, with respect, correct.

      To the contrary, a co-owner has a prima facie entitlement to the appointment of a statutory trustee. In order to displace that entitlement an agreement preventing the sale or appointment is usually required.

  • Squidmcsproggen on 25/04/2017 - 17:20

    he's your brother, give him a good brotherly floggin

  • unitato on 25/04/2017 - 19:09

    How did your brother have enough money to pay for half of the property without a mortgage if he only works 2 days a week or is your mortgage greater than half the value of the property?

    • SpotTheOzzie on 25/04/2017 - 19:40
      +1

      I'm puzzled as well

      • sydsm on 26/04/2017 - 08:30

        he does work…also he is almost 40.

        • aurotaro on 26/04/2017 - 14:51

          What field is he in? Would love to work 2 days a week and pay off my mortgages too!

        • sydsm on 26/04/2017 - 15:20
          +1

          @aurotaro: sonar…everything seems to reflect off him

  • Team Ozgiftcards on 25/04/2017 - 20:23

    In commercial you can have a Russian Roulette style to resolve disputes.

    Basically one of you agree to offer to buy out the other halfs share of the property.

    E.g

    op or brother offers a price to the each other.

    Brother can either accept ops price and sell, or use ops price to buy ops share. Op must sell at that price.

    This discourages lowball offers from either party.

  • beyondtool on 25/04/2017 - 23:05
    +1

    Back in my day we settled this in a round of street fighter on the playstation.

    • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 23:19

      Back in my day it was Pong on the Atari.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/04/2017 - 00:44

        Back in my day it was Tether Ball.

  • RappyGreens on 26/04/2017 - 01:47

    Sensible advice: as suggested. Disconnect and remove everythig you pay/paid for.

    After that, make legal proceedings. There may be little you can do though given you do not seem to have an official contract in regards to how these kind of matters would be handled. Something that any business partnership should begin with.

    I dont understand why you would give into any of his demands in the first place. You have your rights, as does he. If he does anything to harm you. Make sure he pays.

    Less sensible: Find the pot stash.. Pee in it.. Rinse and repeat until youve had your fun. Once that happens.. Spike it. No one will be the wiser.

    Make sure he smokes it away from the residence. Dont want that market value dropping now.

  • CMH on 26/04/2017 - 02:45

    My vote goes towards speaking to a lawyer.

    While it MAY drag out and cost a bomb, it doesn't have to get that far if the advice is sound.

    If it does get that far, the other alternative is to let things be as it is (and it's costing you $400 a week in missed rent btw).

  • centrelink on 26/04/2017 - 03:26
    +1

    Easiest way is to transfer all electricity water Gas bills, Internet to him (or better yet just disconnect it) and he should slowly begin to suffer financially..

    Remove all expensive items and replace them with trash you would probably never use like couches from the street etc… Lots of second hand stuff going around for dirt cheap and quite often free and that should cover the "abandoned clause"

    Pretty much just degrade your brothers living style like it as if you just became so poor you needed to cut down.

  • Braintrain1000 on 26/04/2017 - 07:50

    Its a very complicated situation. You have decided how you want to take it to the next level.

    Do you love him? Are you emotionally attached? You need to sit with him and explain things without asking him for any suggestions.

  • payless69 on 26/04/2017 - 08:15

    move in, make him addicted to BBQ, burnt steaks more and more of them a bum like him is likely to go for it make sure he is eating the coal of the burnt steak.
    takes time but well worth his funeral expenses…..

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