What to do - property nightmare.

sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:30
Last edited 24/04/2017 - 15:36

Hi all,

Keen to have some sensible advice or opinion.

My brother and I own a property in Sydney as 50/50 joint tenants. We bought the place 3yrs ago off the plan and he has no mortgage on it, but I do (I pay my mortgage payments). He works 2 days a week (self choice as he thinks life isnt about working and all about relaxing and yoga/pot). Althought I no longer live there i still pay half the bills - therefore subsidizing his lifestyle (my belongings still in the house, such as TV, bedroom /clothes etc).

Issues - The first 1.5yrs I lived in the place though for the past 8 months or so due to my inability to get him to sell the home, I moved into my GFs place and its sitting empty. I am NOT allowed to rent out my room (would achieve 400/wk) as he wants half the rent due to people intruding on his space (he knows how difficult he is therefore other people would intrude on him); I am not allowed to have my gf sleep over bcoz he will call the cops and believes she is causing these problems; I am not allowed to airbnb my room as "airspace" issue, I am unable to sell the unit bcoz it doesnt suit him. Also he gets the carspace because…why not.

he is listed on my mortgage due to the Joint tenancy issue (defaulting not an option) - he opens my mail and knows how much is owing although ultimately it shouldnt impact anything.

Now - what the heck can I do.

He is threatening to hold me financially hostage for another 2.5yrs until he feels ready though I need my money for other reasons. He is extremely greedy in general (takes offence if somebody ate one banana of his, separates his food when we lived together and wouldn't share a cooked meal, yet I have provided expensive items such as TV, Internet, espresso, furniture …generally anything of value), and will not sell as it doesn't suit him.

He wont turn up to court if I sued him therefore I will have to pay a solicitor each time this occurs and have inquired it would potentially cost 80-100k in legal fees (he will self represent). I cant find any legal precedence online other than im screwed.

The place would be worth $1-1.1m if sold - He has all of a sudden decided that as he put up the cash for the unit to be mortgage free and I have a mortgage on it, he is entitled to a greater share because doesnt have access to his money (bizarre). Also he offered to pay out my mortgage and give me a measly sum of cash (shortfall of approx $200k off the value) because this is "fair". Literally i need advice from anyone that has experienced this as he is a piece of work (he conned me into buying with him because he couldnt afford to buy alone and now that the value of real estate has increased, I can only summise that he cant afford to buy anything now).

Thanks

Financial

Comments

  • Archi on 24/04/2017 - 15:42
    +104

    only thing I will say… awesome family you have.

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:43
      +6

      You have no idea..he is definitely the black duck of a very large family.

      • Architectonic on 25/04/2017 - 11:14
        +17

        Why did you purchase a house with him then?

        You need to rebuild trust with one another before you will have any traction. This means making compromises.

        • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 19:08
          +1

          Exactly, why did you purchase a house with him ? you knew what to expect.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 21:05

        he is definitely the black duck of a very large family.

        That's racist!!

        • OBone on 25/04/2017 - 21:51
          +12

          Sure is, you should never call a sheep a duck.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 22:45
          +1

          @OBone:

          That's speciesist!!

    • eneloop on 25/04/2017 - 20:08
      +1

      I got a cousin looking for a place to rent if your interested

  • iratepirate on 24/04/2017 - 15:42
    +111

    I'm so sorry to hear that your brother went on a journey to central Australia and was never heard from again.

    • SirFlibbled on 24/04/2017 - 16:15
      +12

      As they are joint tenants it means that the OP will own the completely if his brother passes. Not that I'd recommend this of course..

      • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 19:20
        +21

        No one said he died on his trip…
        The guy just wanted some alone time to find his inner self.

        • armedgoat on 26/04/2017 - 12:41

          it's sounds like a movie called keep mum

      • cannedhams on 26/04/2017 - 12:51

        not if the surviving joint tenant is implicated in the death: see Re Stone [ 1989 ] 1 Qd R 351.

    • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 16:22
      +3

      still in the dreamtime

  • John Kimble on 24/04/2017 - 15:43

    Can't you sell your part to him? I would think situations similar to this occur all the time (Eg when people get divorced).

    https://youtu.be/Jl5vi9ir49g

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:44

      He offered me a total of 350k for my share (initially offered my 280k)…of potentially a 550k share. he also doesnt work, therefore no bank would lend to him.

      • John Kimble on 24/04/2017 - 15:47

        I didn't think it was negotiable if you were 50/50 joint tenants, but just guessing.

        How can he not work? Centrelink?

        • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:49

          sorry - he works 2 days week - one day cash for a mate and the other day for a very successful property development business (that has multiple times asked him to work full time). his preference is to earn enough to live and literally CHILLAX!

        • Scrooge McDuck on 26/04/2017 - 00:05
          +5

          @sydsm:

          The first step to solving any problem is identifying the problem.

          his preference is to earn enough to live and literally CHILLAX!

          Good for him! It seems like he has been more successful with his finances than you and has facilitated the lifestyle he sought. You should respect him for that rather than resenting him. You do have valid grounds to resent him for his lack of empathy for you, but you should respect his wiliness too.

          I am not allowed to have my gf sleep over bcoz he will call the cops and believes she is causing these problems;

          Potheads are criminals and criminals don't call the Police lightly.

          The problem is you're a pushover and your wily brother is exploiting it by using the frictions (cost and effort) of you affecting a resolution, to maintain the status quo.

          Rather than bear the frictions you could quantify them and offer to split them with your brother from the fair market value of your half. So rather than sinking money (and effort) into legal proceedings you both keep a share of it. This should appeal to his greed and ego to induce a resolution.

          Alternatively, you could:

            2. Stand your ground and make his residence uncomfortable (some good suggestions in this thread).
            3. Commence legal proceedings.
            4. Have him removed from the residence via Police action for his criminal activities.

        • c0balt on 27/04/2017 - 15:49

          @Scrooge McDuck:

          All great advice apart from the cannabis issue.

          Cannabis possession and use in a private residence is effectively decriminalised in NSW. There are multiple cautions given before even a diversion program would be pushed by the courts. This is provided it is personal use with non-commercial quantity in posession.

          In no way can personal use of cannabis be used against the brother effectively unless he worked in a profession where a positive result could mean the end of employment.

          Considering the brother is as successful in his lifestyle as the OP makes him out to be - the brother won't be an idiot about this and jumping on the threat of dobbing in recreational personal use as a method of financial negotiation would surely lead to further complications and tensions without having any of the desired effect.

          This is a civil matter that should be settled via compromise, or through the courts if O.P. wants to lose more in legal fees than the difference that the brother is offering.

      • YellowDieselGolf on 24/04/2017 - 19:18
        +41

        Get several property valuations. When he baulks at paying 550k and repeats his offer of 350k, offer him 350k for his share.

      • 50cent on 26/04/2017 - 12:08
        +3

        how did he get the money to even buy the place initially if he doesnt work?

      • armedgoat on 26/04/2017 - 12:39
        +2

        just ask him sales his shares of property to you. and then you sale the whole property once in all.

  • iratepirate on 24/04/2017 - 15:48
    +22

    My post was a joke…according to my lawyer. Move in and be a prick- he can't evict you either…

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:50

      Yes..im thinking of moving in with my dogs and the missus to drive him nuts. My worry is he will attack the pets or literally drive us mental.

      • iratepirate on 24/04/2017 - 15:52
        +30

        Invite your best friends (that homeless guy you just met) to move in too - this is a spine test ; do you have one?

      • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 19:22

        Move in, remove all your stuff that's not needed.

        You'll have to live without a couch, TV and all the other stuff that is in anyway communal

      • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 23:58
        +19

        Please don't involve your dogs - they are easy targets for a nutcase.

      • 811b11e8 on 26/04/2017 - 13:22

        You should speak to a lawyer, if you take him to court and he doesn't show the judge can still make a ruling.

        Otherwise until the issue is resolved I would stop paying him any money, I also wouldn't put any money towards the mortgage or bills. Note this could affect your credit rating.

        Tell him you want the mortgage to default and for the bank to sell the house so you can get your fair share. Worst case scenario he might end up paying your mortgage the share of the property would still be yours.

        You should also speak to the bank probably before hand.

    • nikey2k27 on 25/04/2017 - 07:59

      Move in been (profanity) he get sick of you move out then you can sell chillax people hate BS

    • cameldownunder on 26/04/2017 - 14:21

      Wait till he is out of the house, and remove everything. Put what is his in a storage facility, and then start negotiations.

  • Caped Baldy on 24/04/2017 - 15:48
    +15

    Bikies

    • Caped Baldy on 24/04/2017 - 15:54
      +9

      In all seriousness though.
      When he is out of the house, go in and take your belongings (hopefully you have proof of ownership - receipts).
      Get a PO box for your mail (or mail a glitterbomb to yourself so he opens it).

      Before court it's best to take it to some kind of arbitation/mediation.

      • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 15:58
        +5

        I have been learning that if i remove my belongins, I have effectively abondoned the residence, therefore strengthening his desire to take more ownership to the property. I have to keep my stuff there to say i live there. sad laws!

        • Caped Baldy on 24/04/2017 - 16:00
          +21

          I'm fairly sure paying the mortgage is a pretty strong case that you haven't abandoned the property and have shared ownership.

        • SirFlibbled on 24/04/2017 - 16:17
          +29

          Joint tenancy doesn't work like that. He can't just 'take ownership' of the property. You will, and always will, have equal shares in the property.

        • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:19

          @SirFlibbled: Definately aware of this…more quering how I can force a sale to get my money and walk away. Due to Joint Tenancy…it seems im backed into a corner being unable to do anything with my room and or ability to sell

        • SirFlibbled on 24/04/2017 - 16:21
          +1

          @sydsm: Yep learn from this and next time get a tenancy in common. All you can do is make his life difficult. If I was you, I'd move in with the gf on the basis you can't afford to pay for the mortgage and live somewhere else.

          How did he afford to go halves in the first place without a mortgage?

        • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:23

          @SirFlibbled: he was paid out a redunancy and saved some cash from a previous property sale. He is so irrational that I seriously dont think I can live with him more for my sanity. I think I will have to bite the bullet and just do it.

        • Butt Scratcher on 24/04/2017 - 18:05
          +6

          I have been learning that if i remove my belongins, I have effectively abondoned the residence, therefore strengthening his desire to take more ownership to the property.

          Seriously, where did you get this from?

          The title of the property is going to say that you own 50%, it isn't going to magically go down until it disappears because you've moved some of your stuff around.

          Go consult a lawyer.

        • LlamaOfDoom on 24/04/2017 - 19:30
          +8

          Replace all your nice gear with hard rubbish equivalents….. :)
          Still your stuff!

        • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 09:27
          +3

          Move your belongings to your room

        • [Deactivated] on 25/04/2017 - 09:29

          @LlamaOfDoom: this is a great idea

      • ireadtermsofuse on 25/04/2017 - 20:06

        I still refer the bikies option…

  • geek001 on 24/04/2017 - 15:52
    +17

    You sound like a pushover. Why can't you have your gf over? What is he going to do if you did? But since you have already moved out, remove what you own from the apartment and live somewhere else. Are you still paying the utilities?

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:01
      +4

      Rather…mentally drained from him. Last thing I would imagine is living with him.

  • TakaHas on 24/04/2017 - 15:59
    +5

    I think you should take the first step of actions by assuming properties that are yours and selling them or removing them from the apartment and disconnect the internet connect to minimise your expenses.

    He wont turn up to court if I sued him therefore I will have to pay a solicitor each time this occurs and have inquired it would potentially cost 80-100k in legal fees (he will self represent). I cant find any legal precedence online other than im screwed.

    Did you actually seek professional legal advice? There must be legal rights to protect both parties. I can only hear everything not in your favour currently.

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:01
      +4

      I have spoken with a few lawyers over the phone but all i sense is them salivating at the cost. I was advised this case would need to goto the Supreme Court of NSW for a final judgement and then he may legally have a right to "not turn up" whilst I keep shelling out legal fees. This has already been going on for 8 months now to no avail.

      • TakaHas on 24/04/2017 - 16:28
        +1

        You may find this article useful.

        http://www.tresscox.com.au/page/our-news/newsletter/forcing-…

        Sounds like Section 66G "the court’s power to appoint a trustee to effectively force the sale or partition of property".

        http://www.freedmangopalanlegal.com.au/section-66g/

        • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:30

          Section 66G

          There is process of applying to the Supreme Court of New South Wales for the appointment of statutory trust for the sale or partition of a property under section 66G of the Conveyancing Act 1919 (the Act).

          Its the issue of getting to the Supreme court (..costs) and the fact he wont turn up costing me more. I think I need him to smoke pot and just ….flake away

        • TakaHas on 24/04/2017 - 16:39
          -3

          @sydsm: I am no legal expert, but there must be somewhere in the Act that protects you and can force the sale without him attending the court hearing. If he does not attend the court when summoned, he will also be in trouble.

          Also, legal cost seems like taken out from the proceeds of sale, so both of you will share the cost and at the end it would be at both parties best interest to settle this ASAP to not diminish the proceeds.

        • Butt Scratcher on 24/04/2017 - 17:20
          +4

          @sydsm: If he doesn't turn up to court that's his problem. Get someone to serve the documents so that you have evidence that he knows about it. Seeing as he doesn't do sht and gets stoned for 5 days a week it shouldnt be hard to find him. If he doesn't turn up he's also wasting the courts time and judges/magistrates don't like that. If he continues, they might even default in favour of selling the house.

          I highly doubt it's going to rack up to 100k in legal fees, idk where you got that from. Even if it does, according to TakaHas's article

          “The usual order that is made concerning costs of an application… is that the costs of the parties be paid out of the proceeds of sale"

          Even if it somehow costs 100k, 1.1mil-100k is still 1mil and half of that is yours (500k), better than the measly 200-300k he's offering. Hopefully he is sober enough to realise that it would be in his best interest to settle the matter (like most people would).

          Why are you still paying the bills and letting him use your stuff, he treats you like crap and you still suck up to him… Cancel all the bills under your name and take your sht out of there.

          Of course it sounds like the solicitors you speak with over the phone are trying to get money out of you. They are running a business, how are they supposed to make money by giving free advice over the phone? Just go to a lawyer for a consultation, sometimes if not most of the time, a letter of demand is all that is needed.

        • MrNeil on 24/04/2017 - 21:16
          +1

          @Hunga:

          Yep I agree with 66g. I've seen it used for a Tennant's in common issue. Property placed in administration… Administrators were 30k alone, plus legal fees… Other party didn't even show up and was hit up with costs too!

      • mylovelyminion on 24/04/2017 - 17:59
        +4

        You have to go to the Supreme Court due to the value of the house. You can only take matters to the District Court up to 750k.

        Yes, it would be fairly costly, but you are forgetting one very important thing. The party who loses can have to pay your costs, which means he may have to pay all of your legal fees.

        In addition, if he does not show up to court, yes the case may be adjourned for a different date. But once you have filed your initial statement of claim to initiate the proceedings, if he does not respond, you will get a default judgment in your favour.

        So, the law can give you some options that can be rather quick.

  • chumlee on 24/04/2017 - 16:08
    +2

    You can sell your half on the open market.

    What happens if you default on the loan? Will the bank seize the property or do you have a different contract in place? Tell him you are prepared to default and have the place seized unless he agrees to sell (although there are consequences to you defaulting)

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:20

      Cant default for business reasons (and own a separate which they would seize).

      • chumlee on 24/04/2017 - 16:33
        +1

        Partition and sale of property is your best option and threaten your brother with the costs of the process coming out of the sale proceeds

        http://www.tresscox.com.au/page/our-news/newsletter/forcing-…

        • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:30
          +1

          Who would want to purchase OP's half at near half the market value of the whole property? (only a huge sucker!)

          OP would need to discount it heavily and take that loss.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/04/2017 - 10:54

          @Scrooge McDuck: no this means that the entire property is forced to be sold including brother's half even if he doesn't want to if it is only single dwelling which doesn't easily split in two

        • Scrooge McDuck on 26/04/2017 - 11:20

          @The Land of Smeg:

          Fair enough. I assumed chumlee was continuing this advice:

          You can sell your half on the open market.

  • SirFlibbled on 24/04/2017 - 16:12
    +17

    I assume you have parents - time to call in the big dogs to act as mediators.

    • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 16:23
      +12

      they probably say "he is your brother" and then leave it at that

    • Archi on 24/04/2017 - 16:24
      +2

      what if the OP finds out he is adopted, that's why his parents have been unwilling to help in the past.

      • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:29

        Tuzii - so true. Parent CBF dealing with him and they have a strained relationship already/

        • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:35
          +4

          Do they have substantial wealth?

          They could leverage withholding inheritance from him…

  • singhdingaling on 24/04/2017 - 16:18
    +43

    Given you mentioned he smokes pot, why don't you call the cops on him?

    Or better yet, when he is at work, why dont you go in and eat all his bananas and take a dump in his bed.

    • Cwong14u on 24/04/2017 - 16:20
      +20

      Why not take a dump on his bananas?

      • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 16:21
        +5

        LOL!. made my day

      • BuyoTheCat on 24/04/2017 - 16:39
        +15

        That is why he only works 2 days a week. To watch for this very act.

        • Kangal on 25/04/2017 - 11:16
          +3

          You can always brush your tightarse with his toothbrush…

        • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:38
          +1

          @Kangal:

          Now something of yours has been in the toilet.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:38

          That is why he only works 2 days a week. To watch for this very act.

          Too bad for him he doesn't work 0 days a week…

      • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:36
        +1

        Why not take a dump on his bananas?

        Or eat his bananas and replace them with dumps inside his banana peels.

        • Cwong14u on 25/04/2017 - 20:40

          Plot twist: use the faeces made from eating his bananas when refilling the banana peels…taking the concept of 'inception' to a whole new level.

          Too much?

        • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:43

          @Cwong14u:

          taking the concept of 'inception' to a whole new level.

          I think that's more the concept of the human centipede married with the hoop snake.

        • Kangal on 25/04/2017 - 21:46

          @Scrooge McDuck:
          Whatever the plan is, I want in. This is some golden experience which I'd like to share with my children someday when I am older. Of course, the story will begin with "…in my day"

    • raging on 25/04/2017 - 10:52

      Checkmate

    • abb on 26/04/2017 - 08:53
      +3

      Cops aren't gonna do anything if you call up to report a pot smoker…

  • BuyoTheCat on 24/04/2017 - 16:31
    +2

    tell your mum.

    Or…why let him have all the fun. I would move back in and make things as fun for him as he does for you.
    Ocassionally bring your gf him to remind him what he is missing out on

    • BartholemewH on 25/04/2017 - 23:41

      Make sure to let him know you and the gf did it on his bed….. This is a war of attrition, annoy the absolute f@#k out of him and act like anything he does has no impact on you at all, soon he will be begging for you to buy his half.

  • holdenmg on 24/04/2017 - 16:53
    -1

    Someone is a Hostage in this and someone's a Terrorist.
    (I forget who).

  • MITM on 24/04/2017 - 16:54
    +10

    Is he interested in selling out to you ? He sounds greedy/money hungry - so offer him what he offered you ? Then negotiate upwards from there to below market price. When you agree on a "fair" price, pull out your ace card and call in the realtors (who you've had waiting in the wings) and put it on the market. Document all the negotiations - nothing verbal, and keep a diary of everything you do*.

    *If this gets to court, you bring out your diary which is the only written record of how things played out. Presumably your brother isn't keeping a diary, and so when you're with the judge and he has a diary in one hand and nothing in the other, he has to side with the diary. The pen is mightier than the sword.

  • Rumbaar on 24/04/2017 - 16:57
    +13

    You own 50/50, move in and live with your GF in the house. He can't say or do anything about that, and if you're paying 50 50 on everything then nothing else can be done.

  • [Deactivated] on 24/04/2017 - 16:58
    -5

    Great family
    I would be getting out of there
    Sell the property and take 50%

    I suggest you get yourself a decent lawyer

  • MITM on 24/04/2017 - 17:01
    +15

    Option 2: Move in and eventually get an AVO against him (mental abuse). He'll have to move out, leave you alone and you'll have the place to your self until he wants to sell - so long as you continue to pay your mortgage.

    • sydsm on 24/04/2017 - 17:42
      +6

      Sounds like a plan

      • iratepirate on 25/04/2017 - 13:27
        +3

        Because you are in NSW you can only lawfully covertly record the abuse if it is for the purpose of obtaining an AVO that is, you are a PINOP (person in need of protection). Do not tell anyone if you do this and only share it with your lawyer.

    • PJC on 24/04/2017 - 18:31
      +2

      The girlfriend could claim abuse too.

      • enzioFirenze on 24/04/2017 - 22:50
        +1

        now that's a good plan, proving abuse for girl friend would be easier I think.

        • Kangal on 25/04/2017 - 11:19
          -6

          Well, the pot smoking will definitely strengthen his case.
          There is physiological evidence linking Pot to Anxiety Disorders.
          And I think he's already suffering from one, based on what we know (he's skepticism and reluctance to change).

    • Oofy Doofy on 24/04/2017 - 20:15
      +2

      I don't think that's a totally questionable position to take, considering what the brother is like (this is a one sided view from OP, as to be expected, and we don't know the guy), but in saying that I'm not sure if it's the right way to go about things imho.

      • Hirolol on 25/04/2017 - 11:17

        The brother hasn't exactly made things easy…..

        Sounds like a no limits situation to me.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 25/04/2017 - 20:49
        +3

        (this is a one sided view from OP, as to be expected, and we don't know the guy)

        Indeed. We can only practically assume that the OP is true, however it's likely to be a biased account.

        The value in this thread is in the edification, education and enjoyment of everyone who reads it as a thought experiment. This comes at the expense of potentially empowering a malicious individual.

  • djkelly69 on 24/04/2017 - 17:18
    +1

    Fairly complicated, but you could look at severing the joint tenancy and refinancing the current mortgage with a mortgage just in your name (and/or selling your share).

  • whooah1979 on 24/04/2017 - 17:20

    rent out my room (would achieve 400/wk)
    of potentially a 550k share

    are you saying that you can get $400 for a single room when the property is only valued at $550k?

    ohh. i get it now. it's a $1.1m property.

    • imnotarobot on 24/04/2017 - 17:31
      +3

      Said valued at 1-1.1m …550 is his share only.

      Edit- you ninja edited! Blast!

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