Infringement. Vic Licence Precedes International.

meantolive on 07/03/2017 - 23:18
Last edited 08/03/2017 - 09:43 by 1 other user

Hi Ozbargain Community,

I know there's been many users asking about contesting infringement notices (which usually ends up with a "just pay it!") , but mine is a really special case (I believe so) and I'm turning to this reliable community for advise.

I left Melbourne for good about 1.5 years ago and just recently came back for a short holiday.
I borrowed a car from a friend to drive to Yarra Valley.

Whilst driving back from Yarra Valley, there was a highway patrol road block where they randomly select cars for checking. I was selected and was asked to produce my drivers license.

I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010) which I still carry for Australian identification purposes.

15 minutes later, the officer came back with 2 infringement notices.
1) Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+
2) Fail to display L plates. Code 2112. RSDR 47(1). Fined $150+

The officer told me that any Victorian License precedes any other licenses. Something which I didn't know. He further informed me that I could only contest this in court.
I'm really puzzled over the first infringement. It was not as though I was trying to hide anything.

I'm here on holiday and this ruins the mood. I'm wondering what implications are there for these infringements.
1) Is there any other way I can contest this?
2) What happens to me if I don't pay it? Will my friend who lent me the car get any issues?

Thanks very much in advance!

Automotive

Comments

  • skillet on 08/03/2017 - 10:50
    +5

    You left Australia a while ago and you are back on holiday I assume you are on tourist visa?

    You should have shown your Singapore driving license since it is in English. Singapore tourist can drive on their country license for as long as their stay. Singaporean do not need IDP to drive in Victoria.

    As long as you did not convert your Singapore license to Victorian they will not know you hold a local license.

    By showing both you are violating the law. You shouldnt be showing your licenses randomly in Victoria. A nice HWP would have given you a warning. I have met many HWP who are kind enough to let me off in a few occasions of my unintentional mistake.

    I bet that you were fined on the grounds that you used to be 'local' rather than treated as a tourist.

    • ProjectZero on 09/03/2017 - 11:04
      +1

      A couple of comments above made by the OP said that he was only giving the HWP his Sing licence but the HWP saw that he had a L licence and asked for it as well. Not really the OP's fault that he had to give both IDs

  • redforever on 08/03/2017 - 12:43

    Do you still hold a permanent visa in australia? Vicroads uses the term permanent visa holder instead of whether you are a resident.

  • Baysew on 08/03/2017 - 12:56

    I don't get it either OP.

    Fine 1.Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+

    You gave them your Victorian Learners Permit (Valid till 2020), so it seems that you complied.

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 15:07

      I don't get it as well. I reckon the officer is trying to get me as I handed him my international license as well. As I produced a non-vic permit (my singapore license) when I am a holder of a vic permit (vic learners).

      I'm not too sure what the law says in regards to that, hence me asking this question.

      • factor on 08/03/2017 - 17:08
        +4

        RSA18A(1) is interesting. If read strictly as worded, it is ambiguous if it applies when the international license is issued subsequent to the Victorian license. Does the term "is granted" relate to a continuing state, or only the initial granting. Ambiguous, thus in your favour?

        If RSA18A(1) is tenuous, then RSA18A(2) does not apply — as the international license would authorise your use of the road.

        The police officer is definitely being an arse. Interesting it took him 15 minutes to find something to sting you on. If you can't go to court, you could discuss it with the commander of the station. That said, discussions with police commanders are regularly unpredictable - often more reasonable than the initial officer though!

        http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125…

        • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 18:33

          Thanks for the comprehensive comment. I've spoken to a civic compliance staff who explained that it's a "continuing state". I did explain to them the time line.
          But it does sound ambiguous after you pointed it out.
          As Im not planning to head to Yarra Valley again, you reckon I could speak to a commander of any station? E.g. Melbourne city.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 14:49

      Do you know what it takes to get an International Drivers License from Singapore?

      Have you actually read the comment thread?

      • ykwon10 on 08/03/2017 - 15:15
        +1

        clearly tuzii doesnt…

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 15:10
      +1

      Singapore drivers license is not easy to get. I've got friends that failed in Singapore and decided to do theirs here as the examiner is more lax.
      I can easily convert my license to an Australian one. I just didn't as I'm not living here but on holiday.

      • No ONE on 08/03/2017 - 16:36
        -8

        It does not make sense. How come you got L permit in 2011? If you were tourist, why get an ID at all, you don't need an ID for temporary stay.

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 16:58
          +9

          Step 1) Come to Australia on a long term temp visa work/study/etc having not learnt or passed driving in Singapore
          Step 2) Decide to learn driving, take the learners test (to get L)
          Step 3) Receiving Learns driving license
          Step 4) Decide not to finish learning driving in Australia.
          Step 5) Leave Australia
          Step 6) Learn and pass driving in Singapore
          Step 7) Decide to come back to Australia as a tourist.

        • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 17:51

          @lolbbq:
          You summarised it well. Thanks!

    • OzzyOzbourne on 08/03/2017 - 15:55
      +3

      Most international driving standards and tests from other 1st world countries are significantly better and more difficult to pass than here. It's basically 3rd world standards here, in fast expensive cars. Even the roads themselves appear to be designed by a retard.

  • wchau on 08/03/2017 - 15:16
    +2

    I think you should contest as you are here as a tourist not a local resident and should be treated as one.. you can't be a tourist and a resident at the same time and it seemed that you copped a double whammy.

  • Findo on 08/03/2017 - 15:20
    +1

    If they ran a computer check with your name and details they would've found out you only hold a learners licence. Once you have a learners licence it's game over driving in Australia with other licences.

    • Baysew on 08/03/2017 - 15:24
      +2

      OP gave his learners licence to the police - so why did he get fined for this -

      1) Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+

      • godofpizza on 08/03/2017 - 15:44

        so if the OP didn't have a learner permit what fine would they get?

        • Boshait on 08/03/2017 - 16:02
          +6

          Zero. Essentially he was fined for handing over two documents when they wanted only one.

        • Findo on 08/03/2017 - 16:19

          @Boshait: no, he would've gotten done for driving without supervision if there was no full licence holder sitting beside him, or done for BAC over zero if he had a drink. Once you hold a learners licence in Australia, you're pretty much done with driving alone until you pass an Australian test or convert a licence from overseas.

        • Baysew on 08/03/2017 - 16:21
          +4

          @Boshait: He may have produced a rabbit out of a hat as well, but he did not fail to produce a vic permit when a holder of a vic permit.

          So why should they get a fine?

        • Boshait on 08/03/2017 - 18:32
          +2

          @niggard: If his aunt had balls she'd be his uncle, but he said nothing about drinking and he has already said he was with a fully licensed driver (which would have been irrelevant had he not produced the old learner's permit).

        • Boshait on 08/03/2017 - 18:34
          +2

          @Baysew: So? He showed the cop an IDL. I don't think you understand how the law works. If it says you can't do X it is not a defence to say "but I did Y as well!".

        • Baysew on 09/03/2017 - 17:52
          +1

          @Boshait: So I grab both my Medicare card and DL (both being green) out of wallet and hold one in each hand, so I can figure out which is which, I would expect to be fined?

  • OzzyOzbourne on 08/03/2017 - 15:52
    +15

    And meanwhile criminals do their work with impunity. Because catching criminals doesn't generate so much revenue.

  • Bnjam3 on 08/03/2017 - 16:03
    -1

    Are you Australian citizen? Are you PR? Are you here on tourist/student visa? If you are on tourist visa or student visa then by the law you are considered as a visitor and this allow you to drive in an international driving licence as long as you maintain your visa condition(Without 3 months restriction). I'm living here for 5 years on student visa and still using my international driving licence. I have tried to apply for local driving licence and on two occasion i was refused to set the driving test for stupid reason(One front light broken which was at morning, second one i refused to shut off my dashcam)!

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 18:10
      +1

      If you have a Vic license, it doesn't matter what Visa you're on. They'll only look at the Vic license, be it L, P or Full. Something I just learnt.

    • DeadlySaber on 10/03/2017 - 13:25

      What if your international driving licence expired? Do you have to renew it in your country to be able to continue driving here?

      • Colombian on 10/03/2017 - 14:16

        Yes, some countries allow renewal from their embassies.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 17:03

      Do you even know

      1) When the OP got his L permit?
      2) When the OP got his Singapore license?
      3) When the OP started driving alone in Australia?

    • Baysew on 08/03/2017 - 17:06

      You should have been fined further for the following reason too:

      • Driving on L permit without supervisor

      No he should not have been fined further. OP has stated -

      There was a fully licensed passenger next to me so he couldn't get me on that.

      • No ONE on 08/03/2017 - 18:41
        -5

        No he should not have been fined further. OP has stated -There was a fully licensed passenger next to me so he couldn't get me on that.

        I am sorry, I don't scoop in op's every comment to see if he did he stat if a full licence was supervising him or was with him.

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 20:17
          +10

          Thats alright, in future try not to reply as if you did.

  • ThithLord on 08/03/2017 - 16:49
    +1

    1) Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+

    Says it right there in the fine, mate. You will not be able to budge any judge on this one, methinks!

    • Baysew on 08/03/2017 - 17:20
      +1

      OP states

      The officer noticed the Vic permit in my other hand and asked for it instead.

      So OP got fined for producing "non vic" permit, yet the police saw the "Vic Permit" and took that.

      So why did OP get fined?

      • geoffellis on 09/03/2017 - 12:40
        +2

        @Baysew - He produced 2 documents. It is against the law to produce a license other than the Vic permit. Just because he produced the Vic permit as well, does not mean he didn't break the law by producing the international/overseas license.

        It also doesn't look good to the officer that the OP didn't actually offer the Vic permit. He had to ask the OP for the local permit after seeing it.

        • Baysew on 09/03/2017 - 17:56
          +2

          Does that seem reasonable?

          Who hasn't fumbled in their wallet and produced the wrong card?

          The OP has stated he had both, so no deception.

        • Ti-au on 10/03/2017 - 15:35

          I doubt its against the law to produce 2 documents.

        • geoffellis on 10/03/2017 - 23:25

          @luciferaust:

          We've already established that it is.

        • geoffellis on 10/03/2017 - 23:28

          @Baysew:

          The OP has stated he had both, so no deception.

          Having both, and giving the officer the wrong one, are two different things. He initially produced a document that he shouldn't have legally produced. You can argue that it was a mistake, but accidentally breaking the law is still breaking the law. Driving 60 in a 50 zone you thought was a 60 zone still ends with a fine and a demerit point lost.

  • Randxyz123 on 08/03/2017 - 17:34
    +1

    I'm confused… why wouldn't you just give the officer your drivers license from where ever you live now ? (Which country do you live in now?). Giving the officer the learners permit as well was a stupid thing to do.

    I would suggest writing a letter explaining you now live in <where ever> (hopefully the country your license is from) and had your old Australian ID with you as you know that international IDs aren't always accepted as 18+ proof.

    You should have explained this to the officer on the spot and pulled up your return airfare proof on your phone.

    I hope a magistrate will see it the same way

    Good luck

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 18:06
      +5

      Yea my friend berated me on that. Lesson learnt, never pull out 2 licenses. I'll be cancelling my Ls.
      I wouldnt mind going to court for this but I'm heading back this weekend. I'll write in from Singapore and see what they can do

      • Randxyz123 on 08/03/2017 - 18:11

        I think you can make a good case for getting out of both.

        What did you say after the officer handed you the fines ?

        • BartholemewH on 10/03/2017 - 21:23

          Are you f@king sh!ting me? You can jam that up your a*@e.

          *Note: This is the model response when in Australia.

  • Hahuh on 08/03/2017 - 17:43
    -4

    Special case: Pay your fine

  • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 18:00
    +13

    Update
    I just went to Civic Compliance in Melbourne CBD. The staff asserted that I should get the 2nd infringement of not driving with my Ls. However, she's couldn't really give me an answer for the first infringememt.
    Further told me the cop could have given me a warning but not sure why he did not.
    She suggested to write in for an internal review which I'll do once I'm back in Singapore.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 20:29
      +1

      Trying to PM you

      • meantolive on 09/03/2017 - 01:40

        Just activated my PM. Tried to PM you but not too sure how to

        • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 02:58

          Sent.

  • coolsteps on 08/03/2017 - 18:54
    +2

    police did the right thing by law. you should have only showed your overseas licence since you are no longer a resident. similar thing happen to me, i got pulled over by police but only showed my overseas license, police checked car rego in fathers name and then found out that i had an expired Aust licence but just under 5 years, asked me how long i had been back in oz i lied i said just under 3 months even though it had been over 6 months thus they let me off with a warning saying that i should carry my passport to prove date of reentry and warned me that my UK license was now recorded on their database and if i didn't obtain a current oz license within 3 months of becoming a resident i would be fined for unlicensed driving. needless to say i went and renewed my expired oz license to avoid future encounters with police lol.

  • WhatWouldBiggieDo on 08/03/2017 - 19:01
    -8

    Nothing about your story rings true to me.

    You reckon you handed both licences to the police officer, yet he fines you for "Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit." Seems far fetched.

    Also, if you are a Singapore resident why do you frequent Ozbargain? I know you only left here "1.5 years ago" but what made you think to ask the question here? If I went on holiday to the USA and copped a fine, I doubt i'd be posting questions on a bargain forum whilst on holiday there.

    You also don't respond whenever anyone asks you what visa you are currently here on.

    In short, there's more to this story than meets the eye - maybe you need to seek legal advice.

    • meantolive on 09/03/2017 - 01:57
      +4

      I wrote this above "Scenario is as such and happened within 5 seconds. I put both of my license/permits together. I pulled them out together and stretched out my right hand to hand over my international license. The officer noticed the Vic permit in my other hand and asked for it instead. I handed it over together with my international license stating that the latter allows me to drive in Australia."

      Ozbargain is the only forum I know in Australia other than Whirlpool. I remember reading issues like this in the forums and thought why not I give it a try to get some aussie feedback. Just because you wouldn't do whatever I did shouldn't make my actions suspicious.

      I'm on a tourist visa. But my visa status doesn't matter as the fine is not about my visa. It's about my Vic learners permit. Even if I'm on a PR, nothing would change, my Vic learners still take precedence over my international licence and the outcome would be the same.

    • FOX on 09/03/2017 - 04:22
      +3

      Mate, you have a vivid imagination.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/03/2017 - 08:23

      Sounds like the Hardy Boys are on the case.

      Must have got a raging clue.

  • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 19:06
    +2

    I am not a lawyer just an armchair internet expert on nothing

    First of all, cop is an (profanity) for not giving you a warning in the circumstances where you weren't actually doing anything actually wrong, you only messed up on the paperwork by not following the letter of the law. You have since corrected that paperwork issue by cancelling your VIC Learners Permit.

    Now from the legal side of what I think.

    I don't think that you have a case to dispute the fine for "Fail to display L plates"

    For the "Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit." the wording for 18A(2) is…

    (2) A person who is requested to produce for inspection his or her driver licence document or learner permit document by anyone referred to in section 59(1)(a) must not produce a non‑Victorian licence or permit held by the person that does not authorise the person to drive a motor vehicle on a highway.

    (59(1)(a) just refers to getting your Licence checked by the police)
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125…

    Well, if we want to get technical with the wording, your Singapore Drivers License DOES authorise you to drive a motor vehicle on a highway… Just not on a Victorian highway (assuming that it is a legit Drivers License which is valid outside Australia)

    Now I'm not saying that you should rely on that potential defense. They might just laugh it off.

    Personally if I was in the situation I would just write for an internal review asking politely for leniency giving the circumstances and it's an honest mistake in paperwork for not cancelling the VIC Learner's Permit after you got your License elsewhere, which you are very sorry for. The defense for 18A(2) is just a subnote really.

    If that doesn't work, same argument for a judge. You are more likely to get sympathy there than an Internal Review+

    Are you a Singapore citizen rather than Australian/Dual? Maybe your embassy can help?

    trafficlaw.com.au is a pretty good resource too

    • andyken on 08/03/2017 - 21:26
      -1

      wrong, you can drive using your overseas driver license if you are temporary visitor.
      https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/renew-replace-or-up….

      the only thing that OP did wrong was SHOW his VIC license, that is all, otherwise nothing will happen.

      and for singapore license, you can simply change over to FULL VIC License without sit in the test. so i suggest OP to change over to VIC LICENSE.

      • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 21:42

        Well actually you are wrong - VicRoads website is not the law itself, it's just a summary/interpretation.

        Having incomplete/unclear/contradictory information on this page might play well for review/the judge, but still, under Road Safety Act 1986 18A(1), it is against the law.

        In this case this page is not applicable to OP because he already has VIC Learner Permit and is not considered an Overseas Driver in the eyes of the law. The page should be made clear that this information is not relevant to people who don't already have a Licence/Permit

        Thankfully the officer didn't charge him with 18A(1) and he should try not to bring that to their attention in an internal review in case he gets charged with that one too. But from a law perspective, you need to read the actual legislation instead of rely 100% on your interpretation the VicRoads website.

        Why would OP change over to VIC licence when he is here temporarily < 3 months, it makes no sense. He just needed to cancel his VIC Learners which he has now done.

        • andyken on 08/03/2017 - 22:47
          -1

          if the OP only show his IDL, he wont received the fine. if the police really get naughty, all he ask will be "show me your passport and the visa" to proof yourself you are only a temporary resident, not PR or Citizen. and if you say "I dont have my passport with me" and then he will hold your IDL and ask you to present it on the (his) station.

          and if you get fined after you show your IDL, you can simply call the civic compliance and showed the information on the site, the fine will be cancelled right away.

          source: my own experience when im student myself back in 2003, i got fine after show them my IDL, and the police told with me that as long as you live here (VIC) for more than 3 months, you are resident and required a VIC license (which is WRONG), so i politely take the infringement notice, the next day, call the civic compliance and explain to them what happen (and my source was vicroad, they told me right away not to worry about it as the fine will be cancel. the staff also explain to me that not many police officer do not understand the different between TEMPORARY visa and PERMANENT RESIDENT VISA because they are not IMMIGRATION OFFICER.

          well, i do not tell them about the law you mention above, but again, as you said yourself that you are not a lawyer so probably you are wrong

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 23:43
          +1

          @andyken: You're situation is different from OPs. I'm guessing that you only had an International Licence and not an Australian one as well?

          The actual offense is to produce a non‑Victorian licence or permit held by the person that does not authorise the person to drive a motor vehicle on a highway.

          That's the cold hard law, the actual rule cited on the ticket.

          He produced the Singapore licence, and the officer thinks that this Singapore licence does not authorise him to drive with it as he also has a Victorian Learner's permit which was still valid.

          Even if he kept his learners to himself, if the Officer found out via. computer that he holds a valid Learner's permit, the result would have been the same according to the wording of the law and the officer's interpretation of it, and the officer's unwillingness to give warnings.

        • andyken on 09/03/2017 - 00:39

          @The Land of Smeg: on my situation, as this is happen more than 10 years ago, i admit to you, yes, i have my L, just like an OP, it was for ID check purposes e such as at crown casino or a night club.

          The police wont be able to check anything at least at that time.

        • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 01:20

          @andyken: You must have just got lucky that (a) the cop didn't double-check your name against the police database or (b) the cop didn't have the same interpretation of the law as OP's cop or (c) your cop wasn't an (profanity). If you had the same cop, and this cop checks international licenses against computer (or maybe this one doesn't but OP volunteered the learners unlike yourself), you could have been in the same situation.

        • andyken on 09/03/2017 - 06:16

          @The Land of Smeg: trust me he check more nearly 20min im his car, im so bored that i get down from the car and he yelled at me to wait inside my car.

  • rbrb on 08/03/2017 - 19:14
    +6

    Simple solution, ignore it and go back to Singapore when you are finished with your holiday, I doubt they will bother chasing you up.

  • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 19:34
    +3

    When you get your learners permit. You get a letter mentioning all this.. Your international license is overriden by AU license..

    • msmhw on 09/03/2017 - 07:44
      +3

      The problem is he got his international licensed AFTER he got learners permit.

      • CLoSeR on 09/03/2017 - 09:24
        +2

        Doesn't matter, lets say you can't pass Vic driving test so you move to Indonesia and get local license in that country. Does that mean you can legally come back to Australia and drive using that licence, I think NOT.

        Once a resident or citizen of this country you have 6 months to get a local license. Op already had one so that takes precedence.

        • phluffed on 09/03/2017 - 13:32

          Doesn't matter, lets say you can't pass Vic driving test so you move to Indonesia and get local license in that country. Does that mean you can legally come back to Australia and drive using that licence, I think NOT.

          Actually, in that scenario all it would have taken would be to cancel the VIC Learner license prior to leaving the country. If you then returned AS A TOURIST with your full IDP, you would be fine.

          The issue only occurs when a VALID VIC permit is still held (physically or electronically doesn't matter).

        • CLoSeR on 09/03/2017 - 13:35
          -1

          @phluffed: I'm assuming the OP is a resident or citizen, in which case an overseas drivers license is never valid.

        • phluffed on 09/03/2017 - 13:40

          @CLoSeR:

          I'm only half way down the page reading comments… so not sure if it is clarified further :D

          BUT, from what I've read so far:
          OP was here for a period of time, attending Uni.
          OP got a VIC Learner Permit.
          OP was too busy with Uni to complete relevant requirements here, so obtained a full license when back home in Singapore.
          OP has since returned to live in Singapore
          OP was here on a holiday and is returning to Singapore this weekend.

          Despite assumption being the mother of all (profanity) ups, I would have guessed OP was only here on a Student Visa to start with.

        • Ti-au on 10/03/2017 - 15:39

          Ridiculous you actually have to cancel the Vic licence.

  • PAZMAT on 08/03/2017 - 20:45
    +3

    Wow so you gave all the ID you had and get fined for producing a non-vic license and also for not displaying L plates because you produced a vic learners permit? shoudldn't the fine be one or the other? If the cop hadn't seen your learners permit would there have been ground for any fine at all? Definitely write a nice letter. Hope it all works out.

    • geoffellis on 09/03/2017 - 12:47

      If the cop hadn't seen your learners permit would there have been ground for any fine at all?

      Yes there would have. He would have still broken the law and would have had grounds to fine him. The only difference is, he might not have been fined if the officer hadn't seen it or run his name/dob in the system.

  • kangaroo on 08/03/2017 - 20:58
    +5

    Unique circumstances, but the cop should have let you go with a warning (in my view), after all you were trying to be extra nice by producing your Vic learners license for general ID purposes.Sorry to hear.

  • Hardlyworkin on 08/03/2017 - 22:37
    +2

    I've seen GoFundMe pages for less! You should have stolen a car and gone joyriding… May have gotten off easier.

    • Ti-au on 10/03/2017 - 15:41

      It seems to be the thing to do in Vic.

  • bargainhuntaa on 08/03/2017 - 23:56

    Consider contesting it in court as you were driving on a valid licence. If singapore license is valid here would you still need to carry an international permit?
    I think, might be wrong.. you are allowed to drive for upto 3 months on international license/ tourist visa before you have to convert into victorian license?
    Try explaining your situation to the magistrate if you are still here for the hearing on your holiday. Or learn an expensive lesson. Cop was doing his duty. You produced a vic L license.

    • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 01:29
      +1

      the fine was for producing the international licence which is considered invalid when you also have a Australian Learner Permit or Licence (or you did, but it was cancelled or suspended because you were naughty). It wasn't for producing the Learner Permit. However, producing the Learner Permit made it much easier for the cop to catch him.

    • CLoSeR on 09/03/2017 - 09:22

      It's not valid as the Op is an Australian, driving on an International License is only valid if you are a visitor to the country. Once your have a residency visa or citizenship you have 6 months to get a local license.

      In the Op's case he already had a local license so is not legally allowed to drive using an Overseas licence.

      • BartholemewH on 10/03/2017 - 21:31

        Sorry, but where does it state that the OP is an Australian? He received the learners permit while studying in Australia.

    • geoffellis on 09/03/2017 - 12:54

      It's really rather simple. You aren't allowed to drive on 2 licenses in Australia. The OP offered 2 licenses to the officer. It would be the exact same situation if the Op offered a QLD Permit and a VIC Learners.

      I think, might be wrong.. you are allowed to drive for upto 3 months on international license/ tourist visa before you have to convert into victorian license?

      He's already has a Victorian license. That 3 months doesn't reset every time you leave the country and return.

  • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 23:58
    +6

    Hey mate, I'll try to clarify this for you. If you wish more information, please allow conversation as I tried to message you but can't.

    I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010) which I still carry for Australian identification purposes.

    You are the holder of a Victorian Learner Permit and you will be held accountable against that permit. More than that, this will apply Australia wide.

    15 minutes later, the officer came back with 2 infringement notices.
    1) Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+
    2) Fail to display L plates. Code 2112. RSDR 47(1). Fined $150+

    The conversation would have been much longer than this. There would have been at least 3 - 4 questions asked before he would have told you that you will receive x amount of infringement notices.

    You were also in the vehicle with someone else as well which was the holder of a full driver licence. There would have been questions to him/her too, otherwise there would have been another one: 'Unaccompanied Learner Driver: ~$770'

    The officer told me that any Victorian License precedes any other licenses. Something which I didn't know. He further informed me that I could only contest this in court.
    I'm really puzzled over the first infringement. It was not as though I was trying to hide anything.

    I can't comment on the first infringement notice because I don't know what you talked there. However, I suspect you gave him your international driver licence and then handed the learner permit when he asked you if you have a Victorian Driver Licence.

    I'm here on holiday and this ruins the mood. I'm wondering what implications are there for these infringements.
    1) Is there any other way I can contest this?

    All the informations about contesting the infringement notice are on the back of your red copy. All you have to do is sign it and send it back to Civic Compliance Victoria and you will be provided with a brief of evidence and a court date.

    However, if you take it to court, although it is a summary offence and you don't have to go to court, a conviction can be recorded against your name.
    You can also win depending on what evidence the HWP police officer has or hasn't and everything will be scraped.
    You can also lose and not have a conviction recorded against you and only statutory costs awarded.
    You can win by magistrate going … well a tourist doesn't deserve this, dismissed (happens a lot).

    In any case speak with Legal Aid (free).

    2) What happens to me if I don't pay it? Will my friend who lent me the car get any issues?

    If you don't pay the fines few things will happen in the background:
    1. your fines will turn into a sheriff's warrant. There, the sheriff has some options:
    a. your driving right in Australia will be suspended
    b. your vehicle's registration in Australia will be suspended
    e. you can go to prison
    f. some other options: take assets, take you to court, etc.
    2. you might have problems getting a loan in the future if you decide to move to australia
    3. you might have problems coming in Australia at a later date

    Again, depending of what was said there, the police officer could have taken you directly to court and your mood would have been even lower. You got off pretty easy.

    REMEMBER: No where in the world you can't invoke not knowing the law and claim innocence. It is your responsibility as the driver/captain of the vessel to know what's going on.

    Thanks very much in advance!

    You're welcome.

    • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 01:27

      Again, depending of what was said there, the police officer could have taken you directly to court

      On what grounds could that of happened?

      • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 16:38
        +1

        On the grounds that he has discretion over the fact that he can take you to court or give you an infringement notice. The infringement notice is preferable option but not mandatory and fully discretionary at times.

        The infringement notice is just a shortcut to get a slap on the wrist and not clog the court system.

        • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 16:40

          I have never heard that an Officer would or would have the power to do such a thing for such a low level offense before. In VIC???

        • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 16:47
          +2

          @The Land of Smeg:

          I'm sure you haven't heard of a lot of things that police officers can do. However, that doesn't mean it can't happen.

          http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s…

          CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 458

          S. 458(1) amended by No. 37/2014 s. 10(Sch. item 36.13).

          (1) Any person, whether a police officer or not, may at any time without warrant apprehend and take before a bail justice or the Magistrates' Court to be dealt with according to law or deliver to a police officer to be so taken, any person—

             (a)     ------>he finds committing any offence (whether an indictable offence or an offence punishable on summary conviction)<------ where he believes on reasonable grounds that the apprehension of the person is necessary for any one or more of the following reasons, namely—

          S. 458(1)(a)(i) amended by No. 68/2009 s. 97(Sch. item 40.30).

                   (i)     ---->to ensure the attendance of the offender before a court of competent jurisdiction;<----- 

         (ii)     to preserve public order;

         (iii)     to prevent the continuation or repetition of the offence or the commission of a further offence; or

         (iv)     for the safety or welfare of members of the public or of the offender;

          In summary, a summary offence is usually dealt by the court system. Again, Infringement Notices, are a way to shortcut the system and not clog the courts. Immagine what would happen if everyone would go to court for any traffic ticket. The backlog of the courts would be years not months as it is now.

        • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 18:12

          @zapy: Of course! But I'm just trying to learn more.

          I thought that this was only used if the Police officer had reasonable grounds to believe that the offender wouldn't show to court for an offence that requires a court attendance.

        • [Deactivated] on 09/03/2017 - 18:30

          @The Land of Smeg:

          For that are remand applications which are made either before a bail justice or magistrate which can only happen in certain circumstances not always. For everything else there is bail and summons or infringement notices.

    • meantolive on 10/03/2017 - 00:20

      Thanks for the really detailed response! Appreciate you taking the time.

      You are the holder of a Victorian Learner Permit and you will be held accountable against that permit

      Yes, I just learnt that the hard way.

      The conversation would have been much longer than this. There would have been at least 3 - 4 questions asked before he would have told you that you will receive x amount of infringement notices.

      Other than asking for my license, the officer requested for my friend's license (asked if fully licensed) and our purpose in Australia (replied holiday). The other time was spent telling me that Vic license supercedes all others.

      However, I suspect you gave him your international driver licence and then handed the learner permit when he asked you if you have a Victorian Driver Licence

      Scenario is as such and happened within 5 seconds. I put both of my license/permits together. I pulled them out together and stretched out my right hand to hand over my international license. The officer noticed the Vic permit in my other hand and asked for it instead. I handed it over together with my international license stating that the latter allows me to drive in Australia

      However, if you take it to court, although it is a summary offence and you don't have to go to court, a conviction can be recorded against your name.

      What's the risk of getting a conviction recorded?

      • [Deactivated] on 10/03/2017 - 01:40
        +1

        It's always a risk of conviction, but GENERALLY for an offence which would not usually carry a conviction with it (i.e. not Drink Driving, Excessive Speed etc) it wouldn't happen unless you really upset the judge. It's best that if you are found guilty of an offence that you specifically ask the judge for "NO CONVICTION" to be recorded. Judge might ask for a reason why he should not record a conviction for you, and you can give reasons like "I might want to serve in the army one day" or maybe in more in your case "I don't want to have any problems travelling overseas and entering Australia again".

        • [Deactivated] on 15/03/2017 - 00:07
          +1

          The Judge might also increase the fine. Usually not. Depends on your luck and charm.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/03/2017 - 00:13

          @zapy: they could, or fine + court costs would be common. Court costs is not that much, I think it's around $70?

        • [Deactivated] on 15/03/2017 - 00:18

          @The Land of Smeg:

          They have all sorts of options, from donating to a charity to fines to work or volunteering or writing letters.

          Again, mostly depends on your lawyer if you have one, your good charm and luck and what side of the bed the judge wake up. They're only humans you know.

          The court costs, I'm not sure what's the minimum amount, however that can be increased. My last contested penalty notice was $92 in court costs which I was pretty pissed off because I was innocent. However, was costing me more to contest that even more not to get anything than just pay the darn thing.

  • Kingfield on 09/03/2017 - 03:44
    -1

    Alright there seems to be a lot of conjecture in the replies here as to whether its 'reasonable' for the first fine.

    From a strict legal perspective - yes that was a completely warranted fine, and you breached the relevant rules. Doesn't matter that you also handed over your Vic permit, the fact that you handed ANYTHING ELSE which '[did] not authorize you to drive a motor vehicle on a highway' (i.e. your international license) means that you have breached and are liable to pay the penalty. @The Land of Smeg above is basically correct in his analysis, except that the International License definitely does NOT allow you to drive on a highway.

    So basically, the only thing you can hope for is leniency. If I were you I would put in an appeal with the RTA or whatever theyre called in Victoria, and if they don't accept it then don't bother with going to court, because you are liable.

  • brokenglish on 09/03/2017 - 08:58

    Once you are issued with a Victorian driver licence or learner permit, it is against the law to use your overseas or interstate driver licence to drive in Victoria.
    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/renew-replace-or-up…

    This is something you should've known before driving in Victoria (or any country for this matter regarding the road law).

  • CLoSeR on 09/03/2017 - 09:20
    +1

    It pretty much comes down to the fact you only have a Learners Licence issued in Victoria, you can't for example move to Malaysia and then try to use your Malaysian Drivers Licence in this country if you have been issued a Vic Licence before.

    Visitors to this country can usually produce their local license, eg if you are Malaysian here on holiday you can drive using Malaysian Licence no problem. But once they attain Permanent Residency they have 6 months to get an Australia Drivers Licence and after this period can no longer use the Overseas Drivers Licence.

    I think you're having a lend of yourself by producing an Learners License and thinking it would be ok.

  • DiscoJango on 09/03/2017 - 09:40
    +3

    good to see revenue targets are a priority nowdays for the police :)

    • bargainhuntaa on 09/03/2017 - 10:39

      Hasn't that always been the case?

    • ThithLord on 10/03/2017 - 08:54

      How? This is an open and shut case of OP breaking the law. Hardly revenue raising. I, personally, couldn't give a rats that Op has a drivers license from overseas. If he's in Australia with an Australian permit, I'd expect him to abide by that permit.

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