Infringement. Vic Licence Precedes International.

meantolive on 07/03/2017 - 23:18
Last edited 08/03/2017 - 09:43 by 1 other user

Hi Ozbargain Community,

I know there's been many users asking about contesting infringement notices (which usually ends up with a "just pay it!") , but mine is a really special case (I believe so) and I'm turning to this reliable community for advise.

I left Melbourne for good about 1.5 years ago and just recently came back for a short holiday.
I borrowed a car from a friend to drive to Yarra Valley.

Whilst driving back from Yarra Valley, there was a highway patrol road block where they randomly select cars for checking. I was selected and was asked to produce my drivers license.

I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010) which I still carry for Australian identification purposes.

15 minutes later, the officer came back with 2 infringement notices.
1) Produced non-vic permit when holder of a vic permit. Code 2576. RSA18A(2). Fined $300+
2) Fail to display L plates. Code 2112. RSDR 47(1). Fined $150+

The officer told me that any Victorian License precedes any other licenses. Something which I didn't know. He further informed me that I could only contest this in court.
I'm really puzzled over the first infringement. It was not as though I was trying to hide anything.

I'm here on holiday and this ruins the mood. I'm wondering what implications are there for these infringements.
1) Is there any other way I can contest this?
2) What happens to me if I don't pay it? Will my friend who lent me the car get any issues?

Thanks very much in advance!

Automotive

Comments

  • Ash-Say on 07/03/2017 - 23:26
    +5

    Back in 2007, I was carrying internarional licence and NSW learner licence. I randomly stopped for breath test and got fined $800 for driving on L plate without accompanying full NSW licence holder. The cop gave me the same reason as you that once you get local licence then it cancels international licence.

    Learnt very expensive lesson and still cursing myself for not contesting it in a court. This was my first ever and still only driving fine in Australia. Your fine is small but I will still highly recommend to contest it in a court if you have a time.

    • meantolive on 07/03/2017 - 23:40

      Thanks for the reply. Sorry to hear you had a fine as well, I thought $460+ was excessive.
      I wouldnt mind contesting this, but as mentioned, I'm here on holiday and will be leaving this weekend.

      • Herbert on 08/03/2017 - 17:03
        +3

        I would strongly recommend you to go to court.

        You can plead guilty with explanation in writing .

        Based on my past experiences, I think the second fine will be waived and the first fine will be halved plus $80 court cost.

    • ThithLord on 10/03/2017 - 08:36
      +3

      What on earth would you contest? The Learners license clearly states it takes precedence over international permits. You'd have wasted yours and the courts time, and money.

      • [Deactivated] on 11/03/2017 - 03:40
        +1

        The judge has the power to reduce or waive the fine even if you are found or plead guilty

  • whooah1979 on 07/03/2017 - 23:33
    +26

    I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010) which I still carry for Australian identification purposes.

    what you did was a no, no. motorists should never show a hwp or rbt more than one form of drivers licence.

    only one drivers licence is valid at the time.

    • meantolive on 07/03/2017 - 23:41
      +1

      Lesson learnt :(
      Stupid me

  • matt_will_fix_it on 07/03/2017 - 23:42
    +12

    I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit (got it in 2010) which I still carry for Australian identification purposes.

    An International Drivers Permit is not a licence - it is a translation of your other country licence conditions. So you must also show the other countries licence as well.

    You didn't state, but which country do you have a full licence in?

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 00:16
      +5

      My drivers license is from Singapore and it's recognised in Australia.

      • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 00:30

        To add. I showed my international drivers license. Not permit. And it's in English

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 18:46
          +16

          @BestofOZB: you're being really pedantic with the wording, his "international driver's licence" means his Singapore Driver's Licence, as Singapore is an International location from the perspective of where we are, it's colloquially called an "International Driver's Licence"

        • FutureTech on 08/03/2017 - 19:19
          +2

          @BestofOZB: he would not have been fine because all that it takes for the officer to know he had a local learners permit is a name check. This is common practice to see if you have warrant out

        • JimmyF on 08/03/2017 - 21:20
          -6

          @The Land of Smeg: no his not, there no such thing as a "international driver's licence"

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 21:52
          +3

          @Level380: It's a colloquial term. Do you even know what colloquial means?

        • chriise on 09/03/2017 - 10:10
          +8

          @Level380: He is being pedantic. Technically it's referred to as an Overseas License.. but whatever, we got the gist of the story.

          edit: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/renew-replace-or-up…

          Temporary Visa

          If you hold a temporary visa:

          you are not required to get a Victorian driver licence and/or learner permit
          you can drive using your current overseas driver licence for the length of your stay
          your driver licence must be written in English or accompanied by an English translation or international driving permit.

        • JimmyF on 09/03/2017 - 10:39
          +1

          @chriise: Correct, its called a "international driving permit", not a "international driver's licence"

        • chriise on 09/03/2017 - 10:52

          @Level380: "you can drive using your current overseas driver licence for the length of your stay"

          It's called an overseas driver license. This is what the OP produced. You're confusing two different things.

        • BestofOZB on 09/03/2017 - 14:53
          +4

          @chriise:
          I was confused when OP "I passed to the officer my International Drivers License".

        • berry580 on 10/03/2017 - 20:35

          @BestofOZB: you're at ozbargain, not a legal conference. I see where you're coming from, but just get used to it mate. Lol

      • CLoSeR on 09/03/2017 - 09:32
        +2

        Only if you're a visitor; if you're a citizen or resident having been issued a local license before your Singapore license is not valid.

  • [Deactivated] on 07/03/2017 - 23:45
    +1

    Interesting situation OP. I can see why you would think that the full international license should be OK, but demerit points and offences must go on the local license so I think they will enforce it if you go to court. Otherwise people would split or dodge fines and demerit points using multiple licenses (like multiple passports).

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 00:21
      +1

      Good point. Neither of my alleged offences chalk up demerits points as stated in the infringement notice.

      Anyway, anybody knows why I got the first infringement? I just gave the officer the international and the Victoria Learners permit. It seems to me if I didn't provide the International license, I would have only gotten the 2nd infringement. So I basically got an extra fine for providing more documents

      • altomic on 08/03/2017 - 00:31
        +1

        so when you say "international drivers licence" you mean "a drivers licence from another country"?. not an international drivers permit?

        • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 00:36
          +1

          Yes. That's correct. A Singapore license (my international one) is recognised by Australia.

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 00:59
          +4

          @meantolive:
          2576: "Producing non‑Victorian licence or permit that does not authorise driving a motor vehicle"

          That does seem harsh…I'm guessing the cop would say the Singapore license is invalid due to the local learner but was nonetheless produced. Maybe it was 50:50 whether to get you on no supervising driver instead. Pretty mean, as I think that law is intended to stop forgeries or deception.

        • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 01:04
          +4

          @Frugal Rock:

          There was a fully licensed passenger next to me so he couldn't get me on that. I reckon he just didn't like my face and wanted to dish out more fines.

          Do these highway patrol officers have quotas to hit?

        • EmCKay on 08/03/2017 - 21:28
          -8

          @meantolive: sigh no, HWP do not have quotas.

        • Pinchy on 09/03/2017 - 00:18
          +2

          @fiza1981:
          How sure are you?
          Cops do have quotas.

        • z0s0 on 09/03/2017 - 08:10
          +6

          @meantolive:

          I would take it to court. Your Singapore license is clearly valid in Australia; the learners permit (isn't it expired anyway?) is irrelevant. You shouldn't have produced that one at all, TBH. You don't live in Australia and as such you are not required to convert your foreign driving license into a local one.

        • OzBestDeal on 09/03/2017 - 09:36
          +7

          @meantolive: In NSW, a highway patrol found guilty writing 18 fake tickets.
          Yet he's suspended and still getting paid by taxpayers money.

          This raise a question, why would he risk his career (and his future) if there's no strict quota to meet.

        • EmCKay on 09/03/2017 - 09:56

          @cimot: because he wanted to look like he was out there every day working hard when he wasn't.

        • EmCKay on 09/03/2017 - 09:57

          @Pinchy: was married to one. BIL is one.

        • SeVeN11 on 10/03/2017 - 23:10

          @meantolive:

          if look anything like your avatar, you do look pretty ugly just like most of us here.

          :)

        • pegaxs on 05/05/2017 - 22:35

          @fiza1981: Friend is a highway patrol officer and I asked him about quotas. They don't have "quotas" but he assured me, if he goes back to the station at the end of his shift with little to no bookings, he said that a verbal arse kicking would ensue…

      • zqipz on 10/03/2017 - 13:21
        +1

        Here's a stab at it. You no longer live in Vic, so the Vic license (which contains address) isn't valid to the point of showing your correct details. However it hasn't naturally expired, so it is valid but not technically correct. In a round-a-bout way, they've seen you have a valid Vic license which you should've cancelled when you left and should not have used. The international/other country license, would then be the main identifying document and you wouldn't have had either fine. But you showed your L's and your international, which contradicts your living arrangement and shows you need L plates.

        Edit: sorry for all the edits, but just piecing it together

      • FirstWizard on 10/03/2017 - 15:21

        So When I lived in Virginia for a year, the clause was I could drive with my Overseas licence because it was a working Visa, but I had to get a VA licence within 3 months of getting gainfully employed.

        Rules clearly stated, once I've been issued with a VA licence it takes precedence above any local or overseas licences I possess. If it is expired and I visit VA at a later date (or circumstances change and I'm no longer employed), I would not be able to drive unless I hand over the old license to the Department.

        Maybe the law is similar here.

  • airzone on 08/03/2017 - 00:18

    I would have thought a 2010 learner's permit would have expired already

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 00:22

      Unfortunately it lasts 10 years. It expires 2020.

      • airzone on 08/03/2017 - 08:28
        -2

        Bad news.. In NSW they only last 18 months or so

        • Matslurpee on 09/03/2017 - 16:16

          False, got mine at least 15 months ago, it expires in 2020.

      • OzJD on 08/03/2017 - 22:44

        Maybe request they cancel it?

        In NSW, you can voluntarily have your licence revoked.

  • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 00:30

    Having been on the learners system before, did you have any person accompanying you in the car?

    Anyway, I think if you've become a short-term resident in any place, best course of action is to produce identification that is from your native country. Less confusing that way.

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 01:01
      -4

      Yes. My friend whom is an international licensed driver as well (no vic license). So in their eyes, my friend was supervising me driving while I'm on my learners. Bl**dy retarded if you ask me as I'm a more experienced driver.

      Thank God for that though. If not I'm sure the officer would have given me that $800 fine Tipu suffered.

      • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 03:05
        +1

        Man, you must have totally forgotten the L learners license rules.

        Wondering why did you produce the license when you weren't meeting (100%) all the legal criteria to be driving under it.

        Did you not have your passport or Singapore license on you?

        • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 08:20

          I produced my Singapore license together with the Vic learners permit. Didn't know it supercedes my Singapore License. I was under the assumption the more "superior" one is valid. Guess not.

        • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 14:46
          +4

          @meantolive:

          Ah makes sense now. You were offering him all the ID on hand with good intention. I understand where you're coming from now. Maybe you should have put that in your original post. Now people below are thinking you had all sorts of bad intent (or not reading your post in its entirety).

          I believe your only mistake was not knowing that the victorian license would be prioritized over all else.

          I would just pay the fine and get rid of your learners license asap. I don't think it has any use now that you're not a long-term resident of Australia.

        • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 15:12

          @lolbbq: yea I'm gonna head to vicroads tomorrow to cancel that damn card that cost me $450+

        • zqipz on 10/03/2017 - 14:43

          in Qld, you get reimbursed the difference and 5 years is only $160.

    • FutureTech on 08/03/2017 - 19:24
      +1

      Yes, the op should have surrendered his Victorian license the moment he ceased to be a Victorian resident. This definitely could have reduced the confusion greatly. After all you are supposed to have only one drivers license and it should be from your place of residence.

      • FOX on 09/03/2017 - 04:03

        I beg to differ. By your logic, the same would apply to people holding multiple passports/nationalities. The Austrlian government cannot dictate that one must give up his/her Australian nationality if he/she is going to take up a foreign nationality.

        To me there is nothing wrong having multiple drivers licenses.

        The two infringements in a sense contract each other: producing non-vic license vs. vic learner.

        We just have to accept all these laws when at times they don't make sense at all.

        Stupidity prevails!

        • johnno07 on 09/03/2017 - 09:39
          +3

          But you would surrender your Australian passport the moment you ceased to be an Australian citizen, right? You can't have an Australian passport, if you're not an Australian citizen. Can you have a Victorian license, if you're not a Victorian resident?

        • FOX on 09/03/2017 - 09:51

          @johnno07: That's an interesting point. However I do wonder if there is actually laws prohibiting one from holding a Victorian drivers license if he/she is not a Victorian resident……

        • BestofOZB on 09/03/2017 - 14:57

          @FOX: I don't think there is, when I first arrived to Australia I applied and got a full QLD licence while still on a visitor visa.

      • cameldownunder on 09/03/2017 - 12:12
        +10

        I have two driver licenses. Swiss one for when I drive in Switzerland, AU one when I drive in AU.
        Both are valid. But reading this I will not show both of them to the police if I get stopped.
        I think the cop is over zealous, and yes, he probably didn't like your face.

        • Colombian on 10/03/2017 - 09:03
          -2

          By law, you can't have 2 driver licenses. I had to surrender my Colombian driver license when I got the Australian one. I'm also a Canadian PR and they also ask you to surrender the overseas driver license if you want to have the Canadian one. I think the same applies to UK.

          All of this is valid as long as you try to validate your overseas driver license to avoid starting from L and P.

        • MrTweek on 10/03/2017 - 14:25
          +1

          @Colombian:
          This is wrong. When I converted my European licence to an Victorian one, Vicroads told me that I do not need to surrender my overseas licence.

          Other countries will do so, but Victoria definitely not.

        • Colombian on 10/03/2017 - 15:44

          @MrTweek: Other states you mean. My experience is that it depends of the staff member who is attending you. In South Australia you have to surrender your overseas license according to the law but staff members don't know or don't care and never ask. It happened to me, my wife and some friends who still have their overseas license.

          Maybe in Victoria is different.

        • zeezaw on 10/03/2017 - 23:12

          @Colombian:

          There's no requirement to surrender overseas licences.

          If you think about it, it would be a pointless requirement as one could simply claim licence loss/theft to the overseas authority and thereby have it reissued.

        • cameldownunder on 13/03/2017 - 18:54

          @zeezaw: Also, in my case, it is a Swiss document. I cannot imagine anyone having the right to "confiscate" such document.

  • KaTst3R on 08/03/2017 - 00:41
    +6

    Really interesting topic as I also have two licences and often thought about which one to produce in the event of a cop stop. Thanks for the heads up.

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 15:13
      +2

      Glad to know this thread would help prevent future similar incidents.

      • stumo on 08/03/2017 - 21:26
        +1

        I have 3, but I think you can only use the others for 3 months, or until you get a VIC license. At that point the VIC license has to be produced, and if you get caught producing any others you are opening yourself up to fines.

  • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 01:26
    +1

    What would have happened if you just produced the international licence only? Ie. You are a tourist driving a car in Australia

      • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 11:36
        +9

        I passed to the officer my International Drivers License (got it in 2011) and my Victoria Learners Permit

        • KaTst3R on 08/03/2017 - 15:15
          +10

          Apologies, I mis-read that.

    • ThithLord on 08/03/2017 - 16:56
      +3

      Likely run OP's name and DOB through their database, and voila - they find his valid Vic L permit

      • Baysew on 08/03/2017 - 17:12
        +4

        Which the police had in their hand because the OP gave it to them.

        • ThithLord on 09/03/2017 - 08:30
          +8

          I was replying to TightBottoms hypothetical:

          What would have happened if you just produced the international licence only?

  • Findo on 08/03/2017 - 02:09
    -5

    International licences can only be used for up to three months depending on the state. Once a licence is issued, you lose the privilege of using your international licence. You copped a fine, now pay it.

    • [Deactivated] on 08/03/2017 - 03:04
      +1

      OP learners was issued in 2010.

      Pretty sure no IDP is that lasts that long.

      OP was longer a long term Australian resident.

      That said, yea OP made a mistake of giving the wrong ID, trying to wriggle out of it is likely going to be more costly.

    • Save 50 Cent on 08/03/2017 - 18:47
      +3

      Not quite right. 3 or 6 months (depending on the state) only after getting a permanent visa. If you are on a student or work visa, you can use your international licence even if you've lived here for many years.

      • stumo on 08/03/2017 - 21:29

        Nope, Kiwis on SCV have to get a VIC license after 3 or 6 months. Its not a permanent visa, more like stuck in a permanent limbo. You do get to keep your NZ licence though.

        • praga on 09/03/2017 - 02:23

          Not sure about NZ but what @samBee said is correct for all other countries, at least in WA

        • CLoSeR on 09/03/2017 - 09:34

          Kiwi's are a special case, they already have residency rights in Australia. @samBee is correct for all other internationals in this country.

        • chriise on 09/03/2017 - 10:18

          If you have perm residency rights, then you have 3-6 months on international before you need local. As a temp resident, you can use international license indefinitely (as long as it remains valid in country of origin)

        • stumo on 09/03/2017 - 11:13
          +4

          @chriise:
          Yeah kiwis are permanently temporary. Its retarded.

        • chriise on 09/03/2017 - 11:15

          @stumo: haha, didnt know this

        • 01011010 on 10/03/2017 - 10:20

          "permanently temporary" - that's the best thing I've heard all week.
          I'm going to use that in conversation today and see what people think.

  • empty456 on 08/03/2017 - 03:06

    If you don't intend to be a resident, why didn't you cancel your learner's before leaving? Pretty easy to do https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/renew-replace-or-up…

    • empty456 on 08/03/2017 - 03:12
      +6

      Also the rules are clear: "Once you are issued with a Victorian driver licence or learner permit, it is against the law to use your overseas or interstate driver licence to drive in Victoria."

      Source: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/licences/renew-replace-or-up…

      I think you should just pay the fine.

      • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 08:26
        +9

        Fair enough. I'll pay for the second infringement "driving without L plates".

        But for the first infringement "produced non-Vic permit…" that is extremely tight as I produced both licenses/permits. I wasn't trying to deceive or lie to the officer I didn't have a Vic permit.

        • kusama on 08/03/2017 - 18:07

          You should fight the first fine and accept the second (I think if it's valid) however I don't know how long it takes to process the court date..

          I really don't know what would have happened if you only presented the international one - You would need a permit to drive here with international license

        • chriise on 09/03/2017 - 10:20

          @jaybot: you wouldn't need a permit if your international license is in english

      • amkssg on 09/03/2017 - 17:40
        +1

        Once you are issued with a Victorian driver licence or learner permit, it is against the law to use your overseas or interstate driver licence to drive in Victoria.

        No, the rules not no clear. The sentence implies that ONCE you are issued a Victorian licence, it invalidates the international licence that you possess. However, since he got his international licence AFTER being issued a Victorian learners licence, it implies that at the point of him receiving his Victorian licence, he did not hold a international licence, and therefore no licence was ever invalidated.

        Or to put it in perspective, a licence being issued in 2011 can invalidate a licence issued in 2010,
        however it is not logical that a licence being issued in 2010 would invalidate one issued in 2011.
        (You can't invalidate things that will be issued to you in the future.)

        • ThithLord on 10/03/2017 - 08:44
          +1

          Categorically incorrect. The license granted in Victoria will supersede any of the overseas permits, regardless of which was granted first. That's by design.

        • amkssg on 11/03/2017 - 00:06

          @ThithLord: If you think about it carefully, and based on the reason provided for the fine, I do not think that the clause "Once you are issued with a Victorian driver licence or learner permit, it is against the law to use your overseas or interstate driver licence to drive in Victoria" applies.

          He is NOT an Australian Resident, nor does he live here. He is here on Holiday as a tourist. His tourist visa gives him every right to drive on an international licence. Therefore, logically speaking, he should not have gotten a fine.

        • ThithLord on 13/03/2017 - 08:36

          @bsmksg: If he didn't revoke his Victorian permit, that's on OP. Not the courts issue, man

      • Mik on 10/03/2017 - 17:15

        @empty456 the wording of this suggests that you cannot use previous overseas/interstate licence, as Vic licence supercedes it. I would still argue overseas/interstate licence dated AFTER Vic does not apply to your argument.

  • kanter on 08/03/2017 - 07:41

    That sounds weird, did you really give both licences at the same time, or did you try to give your international license first, and then had to give your Victorian one because they knew you had it?

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 08:42
      +5

      Scenario is as such and happened within 5 seconds. I put both of my license/permits together. I pulled them out together and stretched out my right hand to hand over my international license. The officer noticed the Vic permit in my other hand and asked for it instead. I handed it over together with my international license stating that the latter allows me to drive in Australia.

      • kanter on 08/03/2017 - 09:26

        ok, quite a zealous cop then!

        • Zarcady on 08/03/2017 - 16:54
          +13

          That sort of makes more sense when you explain it that way. Not saying you are right or wrong but the officer might have thought that you were trying to 'hide' (and I mean that in the loosest sense) your learner license and instead try to get away by showing your international license as well as stating to him that you are legally allowed to drive in Victoria.

          The officer doesn't know that you didn't know about the rules and thus came to the worst possible conclusion based on his interaction with you coupled with his bias, based on his previous experience with people trying to evade similar fines.

          I would say contest it if you have the time but that might not be the wisest way to spend your holiday

        • BartholemewH on 10/03/2017 - 21:11

          @Zarcady:
          Correction, the cop doesn't care whether you knew about the rules, so long as he gets to write a ticket.

      • stumo on 08/03/2017 - 21:33
        -2

        Ahhh now I understand why you got that fine. To the cop, you were trying to pull a fast one and only produce the sing license. So just pay them and move on.

  • apple2016 on 08/03/2017 - 08:26

    It also depends on you visa / citizen status. If you are PR or citizen of Australia then you have to have an Australian lisence. IDP is only for temporary workers & visitors. Again if you are in a work visa or tourist visa why would you bother getting an Australian lisence?

    • meantolive on 08/03/2017 - 08:31
      +1

      I got it when I was a student back in 2010. Back then I was learning how to drive in Australia. I didn't have the time to complete the 200 hours so I just took my license back in Singapore during the Uni break.

  • jacharya on 08/03/2017 - 09:23
    +1

    I am not advising anyone to do this.
    However, as the OP is an overseas resident and just visiting, what would happen if they just ignore the fine?
    Not pay it and not contest it.

    Also, do the police now issue fines on the spot?
    I thought you receive infringements via mail.

    • pandabun on 08/03/2017 - 09:46
      +3

      I don't recommend to ignore the fine. These people will eventually find you if you ever return to Australia.

      My brother in law got fined years ago (maybe over 10). He ignored it. And for whatever reason, his fine and interest charged letter wound up being sent to my home (he's left Australia in early 2000s). He ended up paying for it. I can't remember the figure but it was something substantial ($600? $800?).

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