Hi all,
Please excuse my beginner question. I'm a "almost new" to manual driver but have been driving Auto for years as a full licence driver.
My question; when approaching to stop, is it ok to place the transmission/gearbox into neutral so I don't need to hold down the clutch (less than 200-250m and around 20kms)?
I've heard good and bad about doing this but need some input.
Cheers!
Amazing how many people here have no clue about manual boxes.
Is anyone else more confused after reading this thread - I've gone from doing it right to doing it wrong and back again 15 times over 2 pages. Can a guru please nominate themselves to clear this up.
For what its worth, my manual ute shows 0.0L per 100km when slowing down engine braking and about 4L per 100km when slowing down in neutral - so I assume from an ozbargain perspective (everything else aside) engine braking using gears is the most efficient way to stop this particular vehicle.
It's called Deceleration Fuel Cut-Off, no fuel is being used as the momentum of the car keeps the engine running, saves fuel and also cuts emissions.
same principle in auto
does auto coast on neutral? no
does auto drop to lower gear when braking depending on rpm and ratio? yes
does auto engage to gear 1 after stop? yes
simple as that, i used to coast on neutral, not anymore, just brake from 2-> full stop->neutral then 1
does auto coast on neutral? errm.. yes it does. kinda
http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovation-and-technology/techni…
OP - ignore every suggestion and get public transport. (not saying you're a bad driver - just so much argument here from users)
p.s. If it is a red light ahead then I check the cars in front and their braking and I slip into neutral and roll and apply brake where/when necessary.
p.p.s. people who say it's in the driving test not to neutral slow down, it's also in the driving test to use your rear vision mirror when reverse parking or parallel parking - I never use my rear vision mirror as I use my reversing camera. so technically I'd fail my test for that. OP do what you want.
I've been driving manual for 15 yrs. I have a habit of going in neutral if I see lights approaching. Problem with keeping the car in gear while slowing down or stopping is you will have to use the clutch for longer period when it can be avoided. In very slow traffic I try to cruise in 3rd gear with minimum use of clutch. My car has done 150k kms and I've only needed new brakes so far, clutch is still going strong.
I have been driving manual cars since 1992. Including on race tracks (requiring heel toe actions). It is all about experimenting to find what's suitable and comfortable for each driver.
Moderate to rapid slowing down while braking using gear only without touching the brake pedal (and hence activating brake lights) is a no no because the car behind may not notice the closing gap (especially tail gaters) unless the driver sees bright brake light.
Driving is not just about you. It is about signalling to other drivers and pedestrians where you are heading to (or turning to, or stopping at, etc…). Unless it is a private road with no one else (or no pets) within 5km radius :)
Guru here (@jason101)
You're learning, habits will last. Do it right now and it will become 'normal'.
When slowing, shift down gears like you're going up - you may have to skip gears if you're stopping quickly. When you're at the lower range of 2nd gear, it's then appropriate to shift into neutral (not dropping into first)
Coasting in Neutral isn't great - but the stress caused is minor. Still a bad habit (as others have pointed out, you can't stop or accelerate as quickly when needed)
The one thing you should NOT DO is drive around with the clutch half way in - you will wear your clutch quickly as it's like two pieces of sandpaper rubbing on each other. Try and keep the clutch either fully pressed or full depressed - obviously a hill start is the exception, but you should try and have it in/out as quickly as possible.
For all you people worried able wear on the clutch, that's your bad shifting. Ive done 160,000 on my current clutch, for all i know it could be 260,000 on the original clutch. Not sure whether previous owner had it changed.
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread by people who have little mechanical understanding of a cars drive train.
Earlier in the thread the comment made by @andreabbbq on the clutch wear and tear is spot on. Read it!
Disregarding the state/territory requirements for passing a driving test this is the best method of stopping at traffic lights.
When the traffic light turns red, take your foot of the accelerator immediately and DO NOT USE THE BRAKE and leave it in gear. Just coast to the lights and use your brakes at the last possible moment. There will be a point roughly 2-5 seconds before stopping when the engine revs and match road speed. At this point you can pop the car out of gear safely WITHOUT USING THE CLUTCH. If you do this at the right time, very little force is required. This will take a little bit of practice to master. Now just continue to brake til stopped. You should now be at the traffic lights stopped with your foot on the brake the car in neutral. All you have done is taken you foot of the accelerator, braked and moved the gear lever to neutral without even touching the clutch pedal. Now you wait for the green and proceed as normal.
The reason for braking late is that most engine management systems detect engine braking while you are coasting to the lights and will cut off fuel supply to the injectors. You can check this out yourself by using your cluster to display instantaneous fuel usage if it has that function.
By using this method the driver minimises wear and tear on the drive train and maximises fuel economy.
Learn to rev match, heel toe and clutchless drive. Never use your clutch again. Problem solved.
I do this in all my manual cars, after learning the correct shifting points you only use the clutch to take off
Terrible advice, unless you can match perfectly (ie, the exact same RPM), you are going to ruin the synchros faster than you would have the clutch.
I realise you're probably relaying information that's commonly said on many motoring forums. But the syncros wear down when you change from any different gear speeds (eg. going from first at 5000rpm to second before the revs have dropped enough), even with the clutch engaged.
So using your clutch and not lining up the shaft speeds is worse than not using your clutch and actually rev matching and lining up the speeds.
The safest solution is obviously to use the clutch and rev match or double clutch. But if done correctly, clutchless is also an option.
Bro we arent racing here. Besides, the person asking the question isnt adept at even something remotely similar to what you are describing here.
Agreed. Looking back, it probably is terrible advice for the op.
Terrible advice, gear is in there for a reason.
The only time I use neutral is when I'm stopped for a long time and can't be bothered holding in the clutch. Use the right gear at all times, you never know when you need to boost away (or out of the way).
Easy answer to take all the guesswork out is to go have a couple of lessons with a qualified instructor .
The question is what affect it has on the car. They have their full drivers license already.
If I see a red light 50 metres up the road I put it into neutral and gradually roll to the lights. With this I don't engine brake or use the brake pedal, unless I get to the point where I need to brake and even then it's very lightly. When the lights turn green as I'm still slowly rolling I'll pluck 2nd gear and continue on with my way.
Instead of rushing up to the lights - stopping - accelerating from a stand point. You'll definitely notice that traffic won't back up as much if you lead the pack. I find this a lot faster for everyone and less wear on the car.
For the manual car driving, you can put the gear to neutral and if you feel the car is still moving slowly, you can use the handbrake instead of the clutch…
Didn't expect a huge response! Trying to read most of your comments, some are questionable but will take your advices on board
This is what I do which has minimal wear on the vehicle and is certainly safe.
Travelling at 60km/h with red light approaching……
Clutch in and shift into neutral then release clutch.
Use brakes to slow you down to a complete stop.
When light is about to turn green clutch in and shift into 1st gear while still holding clutch.
Release clutch when light is green and accelerate.
Your brakes will wear SLIGHTLY faster than normal by doing this but as people have previously mentioned in the comments above, brakes are cheap compared to your gearbox, clutch, drive train and engine etc.
The end.
I like to drop it into second or third when slowing down. That way the wheels drive the engine which saves fuel and higher revs makes the aircon perform better.
Everything 180SX said in the steps, except if you're still moving don't go into 1st- pick 2nd instead.
Otherwise spot on.
Flat or downhill just gear down gently. On uphill slopes I go off the accelerator early if not blocking any others and then while slightly on gas pull the trannie to neutral. Takes a bit of finger feeling to do with minimal force. Makes me going a million km on the same clutch.
Real light cars without vacuum brakes I always cut the engine to stop polluting. If timed correctly yo are getting there just when the lights are getting green and you re-ignite and drop the clutch in second to gently roll start. (Petrol only and not on any late model). Doing 300,00km on a starter motor or much more.
Peak hour traffic on a manual is a pain, save up and get another auto!
Next I am getting an electric car, no gears, no clutch!
On uphill slopes I go off the accelerator early if not blocking any others and then while slightly on gas pull the trannie to neutral.
So going up hill, you suggest putting the car in neutral and slightly applying the accelerator?
Do u even coast, bro?
When I was going for my license, I was taught to stay in whatever gear I was in when coming to a stop and only put the clutch in when engine revs had dropped very low - around 1k rpm. Then either move into first when completely stopped, or go into appropriate gear if still moving.
I have never done this outside of my driving lessons. But this is how the instructor said it should be done, whether this was the appropriate rules I still don't know and frankly done care.
What I normally do when slowing is stay in gear, usually 4th or 5th, and allow the car to slow down (using minimal braking) then switch back to 3rd when revs are around 2k, they will go up to around 3k once 3rd is engaged and car will continue to slow. From the I will put the clutch in at around 1k and move to 2nd if I think I won't be coming to a complete stop, or if coming to a complete stop, wait until fully stopped (clutch in and still in 3rd) and then move back to first. Only if I think I'm going to be waiting a while will I ever sit in neutral with the clutch out.
This is how I drive my car, as it is a 6 speed and the gear ratio in 2nd is still quite high, hence I use 3rd when gearing down. Different cars will have different number of gears, different ratios and obviously different engines. So all must be driven differently otherwise you will wear out synchros, clutches, or even worse suffer compression lockup.
To the op, this may all sound daunting but you quickly get a feel for your car once you get more skilled at driving in general.
To make it a bit easier for the op, here's is what I recommend NOT doing:
Coasting in neutral - always try to be in an appropriate gear where you can accelerate easily if needed.
Heavy use of clutch when downshifting - Try to balance your use of the brakes and engine braking when slowing down. You shouldn't have to use the clutch for much longer than you would need to when going up through the gears. If you are holding the clutch half way for a long time when downshifting, you are probably going down too many gears at once (like 5th to 2nd).
Avoid going into 1st unless fully stopped - not much more to say here. Give it a try if you're feeling reckless.
Heavy engine braking - similar to overuse of the clutch. If you are skipping too many gears when downshifting you will feel and likely hear the engine going from low revs to revs high revs quite rapidly. This causes stress on many components, remember brakes are fairly cheap and easily replaced. Engines, gearboxes and clutches are not
That's fine but keep in mind oil pressure drops right away and around 1500-2000rpm. You never want to operate the engine under load below this point- that include decelerating.
This is an interesting adjunct to this discusssion, does a gear braking engine with no acceleration applied maintain its oil pressure? How would a truck engine deal with a long say 4-5km downward hill journey when they are using engine braking? Are truck motors designed differently to car motors in respect of knowing they may be subject to long periods of engine stress under engine braking?
Sure, if the engine is spinning, you have oil pressure as oil pumps are directly geared to the crank or cam shafts. Engine braking in a diesel doesn't change the effect, just RPM.
Another common error is long periods of idling. This is also bad for your vehicle once it has come off auto-choke (low oil pressure)
Lots of cool stories here ;).
Short version for OP: Coast in Neutral. Changing down gears and engine braking is great for the racetrack, but for a daily driver you've got to ask yourself which one is easier to change… a clutch or some brake pads?
I can tell you right now, brake pads are a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to replace- and coincidently that's what brakes are designed to do… stop the car.
They'll be plenty of people telling you to keep it in appropriate gear for emergencies… but there's absolutely no reason why you can't keep it in neutral with your hand on stick 'ready' to pop it into whatever gear you need.
No problem with it.. I often shift to Neutral in an auto while coasting down hills… my m ates hate it but I've had a car without any transmission problems (although it is auto) that lasted 315K. I see it as providing the engine with a bit of a rest so it can idle with no load.. plus I find the ride smoother.
just make sure you know what gear to put it into based on speed.
Whenever I drive a manual (usually hire cars) I will do the same thing.. coast to traffic lights / downhill in neutral.
I'm sure everyone will cane me on here for the bad habit. Its never caused me a problem and I've been driving for 20 years now…
I also read in the manual of my Passat that some versions have a 'freewheeling' mode where the car is put into neutral itself, so it seems manufacturers are looking at those things in an auto.. It's probably not legal here in Australia.. but ahh most things you do/want to do are illegal.
Im just saying hehe people worry about gears and brakes wear and air con efficiency and here im just sitting in my corolla hybrid enjoy the comfort of electric aircon which use the batteries to power instead of driving belt and if i dont brake too hard the motor that runs backward will generate enough friction to stoo my car before the brake pads kick in
To slow down at a traffic light that may turn green I like to:
Rev matching allows for the smoothest downshift slowdowns
When the car is on neutral, it is like free without any gear. So, you can face difficulties while hitting the brakes at once. It is better to press the clutch with the brakes while keeping your car in the gear.
I used to use gear/engine to help slowing my car down, but not doing it anymore, as there are heaps of threads warning that this practice could harm your car clutch and gearbox, I do know some says it is no matter, but I would rather change my brake pad instead of my clutch and gearbox, which is very pricey part.
So for your question, approaching the red light/stop point, I always keep whatever gear that my car is in at that time, just use brake to slow car down, then until its nearly stop and rpm gauge drop down below 1000rpm (every car is different, my mazda 6 will drop to 700-800rpm, should have test your car), at this time, you will feel your car is just about to get stalling, clutch in and put in Neutral, while still using brake to completely stop the car safely.
However, in case that you going down hill, or get into the sharp corner, YES… you need to use gear/ engine to slow down and stable the car, however, you will need to learn about Rev Matching Technique, to smooth out the changing gear process and protect your gear box as well, there are lots of Rev Matching lesson on Youtube, good luck.
In the end, my way is no right or wrong, its is what I have learnt and experienced in my 10 years driving manual car. Happy Driving.