Hi all,
Please excuse my beginner question. I'm a "almost new" to manual driver but have been driving Auto for years as a full licence driver.
My question; when approaching to stop, is it ok to place the transmission/gearbox into neutral so I don't need to hold down the clutch (less than 200-250m and around 20kms)?
I've heard good and bad about doing this but need some input.
Cheers!
Sorry, just to clarify. I'm a new to manual driving but have been driving Auto for 6 years. Only recently made the move to manual.
I wouldn't use the gearbox to help me stop, more saving the life of my clutch so I'm not holding it down and in first or second gear
this is a low load scenario and will have little impact on clutch or gearbox "life"
Most of the load in normal driving is from taking off and the 1st to 2nd change. The more aggressive you are and hill starts are the most taxing. The smoother you are with accelerating and changing gears the less taxing you are on your drive train in general
Whats a clutch? Its easier to just change gears…it does make a loud stretching noise but it seems to get the job done
it will impact your engine life, gearbox not so much as WT correctly pointed out. its cheaper to replace brakes than piston rings and engine mounts.
Wow…-5 votes…clearly no one at ozbargains has a sense of humour…i was joking everyone…i drive an auto ;-)
Pretty sure holding in a clutch doesn't degrade it, not engaging a clutch correctly will though.
It can degrade it by prematurely wear the thrust bearing as it is in use (has thrust on it while spinning) for longer than otherwise required
Also if you're pushing your clutch in an out unnecessarily you will contribute to fatigue of the clutch forks, which can lead to snapped forks (oh noes!, This could be bad!), and/or weakened clamping force.
Source: I am a mechanical engineer
@andreabbbq: There we go Good to know but in so saying that holding in the clutch dose degrade a part of the clutch system but not holding the clutch in puts strain on the gearbox due to engine breaking. So lose lose?
@andreabbbq: Plus 1 to this. I had a manual car where the thrust washers/bearings were close to failing due to unnecessarily holding in the clutch both coming to a stop and sitting at the lights.
Change down gears when coming to a stop and then pop into neutral once at a stop.
@andreabbbq: What's the likelihood though? I have never heard of anyone breaking or wearing out those parts.
@dylan345: There isnt a lot of load on the gearbox when using engine braking. There might be some shock load if you change down abruptly which can cause a compression lock up
there is far more load while accelerating hard and they are engineered to take it. Breaking gears is generally only going to happen on modified cars that are abused with upgraded clutches with more bite, sticky tyres etc.
@dylan345: compared to normal driving, typical engine braking isn't going to alter the lifespan of the gearbox or clutch.
Depending on the model of car / quality of parts / quirks of the driver, it can vary. Most mechanics will tell people their entire clutch needs replacing rather than just the thrust bearing, as they will make more from that. Though while you have the thing apart it can make sense just to do both (having done clutches by myself in the middle of the night, gearbox sitting on my chest cause I didn't have a hoist or decent jack at the thing, I'd rather not do it unnecessarily lol)
Your car must be in the appropriate gear at all times.
using the gears to help brake the car is not permitted
So you see the light turn red, shift down to 3rd to slow down faster, and brake as appropriate - this is wrong? You should stay in the higher gear and brake?
I'm a bit confused by this too. Was always told that you shift down to an appropriate gear when slowing too. They also say you should shift to a lower gear on long hills to use the engine braking, but the advice by Daabido seem to contradict that.
Edit: Agree you shouldn't drop the car into neutral and release the clutch while coming to a stop. Although I do this a bit when very slow, as in what would be first gear and most of the braking has already been done.
see my reply to the guy you replied to for some info that might help you understand
in basic terms, gears have a range (speed/revs) for which they are designed, its why we have different gears in the first place, " the appropriate gear" is essentially in terms of that, you can jam your car into first gear at highway speeds but the car will slow down very suddenly, the gearbox probably wont, the pieces of it remaining will continue at speed in various directions.
braking with your gears forces practically all aspects of the drive train of the car to very quickly get down to the maximum of the gear you've just selected, can you use it to brake fast, sure, but it'll shave the life span of a whole heap of parts each time.
the safe thing to do is brake using the actual brake until you are in the range of each gear and change gear as you get into the range, in case you can accelerate again, most people will just brake until stopped and then change to first though
It's a bit hard to describe in a few lines of text, but don't coast in neutral (or with the clutch in) to a stop from travelling speed. Get someone competent to show you - although I realise that competent drivers are few and far between with the poor licensing systems we have.
This makes sense, but it's interesting as I was taught to use gears to slow down (not to the extent that you can hear them struggle), but slowly change gears down from 6 to 4 or 3 say for 60 mph to 30 mph speed limit (talking UK roads here). I was also told the Police learn to use this technique.
@973728: Same thing, not in UK though. It was a mandatory part of driving instruction to engine brake.
but it'll shave the life span of a whole heap of parts each time.
Disagree here - if you rev match, the only additional (and slight) wear you'll have is your synchros. In fact I'd argue you'll have less wear on your clutch and flywheel than shifting later.
Safety wise, I find shifting into a gear where you have power before you slow down safer, especially in roundabouts - no need to fumble around while trying to exit.
@themirror: Yeah but rev matching takes a bit more experience then the average driver to be good at it.
@themirror: rev matching is good and not too difficult once you get the hang of it.
Personally, I'd say better to stay in gear in case you ever need to suddenly accelerate. I've avoided getting rear ended and t boned a couple of times by being in gear because I was still in my torque band and able to accelerate out of the situation.
@Pinchy: True, but an average driver will never become a good driver unless they practise the bits they're not good at.
most people will just brake until stopped and then change to first though
Then they don't know how to drive. I can't believe the BS in thread, of course you change down when coming to a stop at the lights, at least twice. Sheesh!
You have to change down because if you are in say fourth gear and want to stop, you cannot just put on the brakes and leave it in fourth as the engine will stall, and the same for third and second gear. "I'm a driving instructor" - absolute rubbish. He's pulling your leg.
Most petrol cars have safe rev range of roughly 1000 to 5000 rpm. To engine brake you would only use say 2000 to 3500. Well within the safe range. I doubt that anyone with enough skill to get to highway speed in a manual would ever dream of sticking it in first unless the wanted to wreck the car. I have done that a few times and all it does is cause a compression lock up. The gearbox stills seems fine but yes it is not going to help the longevity of the car.
In real life driving almost everyone will use the gears to slow themselves down. I was talking from the perspective of taking the test. Whatever speed you are going, whatever the right gear for that situation is what you should be using. This means you are always in control of the vehicle, as far as being able to use the power of the engine and not be left wanting because of your gear choice. That is the same reason why clutch coasting for more than two to three seconds is a fail on the manual test.
Hopefully that clears that up.
When I see a red light ahead, and am in 4th gear, at 70km/h ( on flat ), I stop pressing the accelerator, and when speed is at 60 km/h I shift into 3rd, the RPMs go up to 3500 and come down to 2000 while breaking with engine, a bit more rolling without pressing the accelerator and changing gear, I am now in 2nd RPMs again at 3500, coming down to 1500/2000. Now I either can accelerate again, or I have to STOP and shift to 1st gear. I never shift to first gear if still in motion. You can give a tap on the brake, to show person behind you're slowing down, but mainly with engine.
When going downhill I shift in the gear that is able to hold the correct speed ( e.g. 2nd for a 50km/h slope + some light breaks )
Not leaving the car in 5th and pressing only on the brake.
The right gear for the situation means changing down as you approach a stop. As you slow you need to be in a lower gear.
Some people use this as a way to use engine braking, but it sounds as though heavy engine braking should be avoided in a test.
What you're doing here is wearing the engine and clutch to slow down rather than using the brakes. Brakes are certainly a lot cheaper to wear out and replace.
"And unlike what most people do in their manual cars, using the gears to help brake the car is not permitted."
So in a 20 ton semi going down through the gears to reduce speed and be in an appropriate lower gear to resume should traffic, lights etc change is illegal?
Pull the other one
Engine braking is one of the most fundamental aspects of driving a vehicle with a manual gearbox, regardless of whether it's a car, motorbike, buggy, truck etc. It maintains control of the vehicle by always being in the appropriate gear to suit the road speed. The drivetrain is designed to handle the loads during acceleration AND deceleration.
I'm honestly worried if you're are genuinely a certified driving instructor and have that level of knowledge. Refer to your own "Queensland Driving Examiner Assessment Procedures Manual", page 45:
6.4.1.2 Clutch
Non-Critical driving errors
- Coasts with clutch depressed prior to or during a turn.
- Coasts with clutch depressed for between three and five seconds.
Specific repeated driving errors (all classes)
- Repeated clutch coasting (that is, six times).
6.4.1.5 Gears
Non-critical driving errors (class RE, R, C and LR)
- Coasts in neutral for between three and five seconds.
Critical driving error (all classes)
- Coasts in neutral for more than five seconds
To summarise mjs12's legal quote and perspective, there is no reason to be out of gear while moving (except for that short moment to change gears) and I'd also add no reason to be in gear while stopped (except for that short moment to put the vehicle in gear).
While I understand the need to comply with the law, and comply with even tighter rules for a driving test, there are many other practical reasons to engine brake in gear when driving a manual car.
The most expensive over the life of a car is excess fuel use. Coasting with your clutch depressed so the drive train is not engaged, and/or driving while in neutral means you use more fuel. If a gear and clutch are not engaged, the engine electronics (or other controls in older cars) will continue to feed enough fuel to keep the engine idling in both of these cases. If you engine brake in an appropriate gear, the engine electronics will cease feeding fuel while you engine brake, saving you fuel.
In practice, by shifting down into an appropriate gear as you coast to red traffic lights means you are already in or close to the right gear to accelerate should the lights turn green. If the engine is idling in neutral, you will put added wear on your clutch plate to get the engine from around 800rpm up to drive train speed of around 2000 rpm to accelerate. The appropriate gear means your revs are generally kept under 2500 rpm (perhaps 3000 in an under-powered car) for either acceleration or engine brake coasting on the flat in traffic. Changing gear means you clutch only has the work at closing a 200 to 400 rpm difference not 1500 rpm plus. Freeways and steep hills will require going beyond 2500 rpm. On and in a diesel you will get away with even lower revs.
The next most expensive over the life of a car is early gear box wear out. Managing wear on your manual gearbox is less of a problem these days as better non-asbestos low wear compounds have been developed for the clutch plate. Obviously the main wear out item is the clutch plate, but other items that can fail due to long term incorrect use include the thrust bearing, the clutch plate spring can fatigue, the clutch forks can fatigue and the syncromesh can wear especially in first and sometimes second gear, which will disappear when the gearbox oil warms up, until it becomes a constant problem.
All these can be managed simply by driving economically. A manual gearbox life will be extended significantly by driving in low rev ranges as above.
Matching the engine revs to the drive train revs minimises clutch slippage and early wear out. When shifting up through the gears let the revs drop just to the next gears rev point. The clutch won't have to work hard to adapt to the small to nothing rev difference. Similarly when shifting down do it gently and in the lower rev range also so the clutch won't have to work hard. Some people even give the engine a slight rev in neutral to enable rev matching.
Also keep your foot off the clutch pedal unless you need to change gears. You risk both early clutch wear out and early thrust bearing failure. This goes for using you clutch instead of your brake to hold yourself at traffic lights on on a hill. The equivalent of this is those automatic car drivers with one foot permanently on the brake and the other on the accelerator. They wear out their brakes and have crap fuel economy. It really is a sight seeing smoke billowing from the brakes on the freeway from these guys.
Finally, in a manual car, especially one with a high compression engine or a turbo (98 ron only), the engine can do the bulk of most braking except urgent, or moderate plus harder braking. This means you need to use your brakes enough to light up your brake lights to notify your intention to slow down. This is simple courtesy.
So to summarise:
* Stay in gear while moving (except when changing gears)
* Stay out of gear when stopped (except when putting into gear)
* Don't ride the clutch pedal (you wear out the clutch and thrust bearing early)
* When changing gears match the revs of the engine and drive train (or keep revs close, to reduce clutch wear)
* Drive consistently at lower revs (mostly under 2500-3000 rpm)
* If engine braking, be courteous and notify intent with your brake lights
I am a mechanical engineer who worked on cars, trucks, fork trucks and machinery and now work on automation, robots and manufacturing process design.
So going down a long steep hill you can't use engine braking by changing to a lower gear and must rely on your brakes. That's retarded.
I agree. In NSW - and other states I would imagine - when going down the side of the Great Diving Range to the coast, the road is long and steep. If you didn't use some degree of engine braking, you could quite easily overheat your brakes. That would be less than ideal ;)
Daabido's reply makes no sense at all.
You can ignore this advice because people with QLD plates generally do not know how to drive
People in general don't know how to drive, it's not specific to any state.
yeah, everyone else is hopeless, but I'm an awesome driver.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
yep, once 'slow' i.e. not into neutral at above say 25ish.
as for stationary, I prefer it as holding clutch down = wear = cost
Noted. thanks for the tip!
As this is a licence fail item, which it is, there is a very good reason not to do it.
Its been a fail item for many years I failed my original test for coasting to a stop and I have been driving since the 70's
So ignore the tip, its plain wrong. Modern cars have good clutches and these last a long time. This is almost as stupid as disengaging the gears going down a hill.
Sorry to be blunt but Daabido as above is telling you straight.
I need more blunt answers. So basically, staying in gear is better unless the stop is for a complete stop? Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to get my head around it. Cheers
@itschrisraymond: Look I dont have the facts. But since it means failing your license test, then its obvious there are safety issues here. My guess is that it means you have less control over the car. Yep you can reengage the gears, but in an emergency that will require removing your hand from the wheel.
And my test was easy, it was when the fuzz tested you rather than the motor registry, and it was a big no no then.
Yes, you shouldn't be in neutral until you've come to a complete stop.
Also changing down gears is beneficial as it will help slow the car down (engine braking) in combination with the brakes.
Imagine you're driving an Auto, you wouldn't shift it into neutral each time you slow down either.
@RockyRaccoon: Correct it is a safety issue, there could be instances when the only way to avoid an accident is to accelerate quickly hence being in the correct gear at all times. Was told this by two different instructors when I got my car license and then later with my motorbike license.
@RockyRaccoon: oh it's for a test. Throw out the conventional this is what you do
Slow down. Clutch in (before stalling). Shift into first
Correct me if I am wrong but I am almost certain that holding down the clutch does not cause wear as it is disengaged.
The only thing you would be using is the clutch slave and master, so holding down (disengaging clutch) does not cause additional wear and tear.
So I can hold down the clutch for a certain period of time, without screwing the clutch/transmission?
Until your thrust bearing wears out, ceases, and tears the finger springs out of the pressure plate.
have had that happen to me mid traffic… not fun. luckily the road slope was downhill. Unfortunately had to fork out 1K for clutch repair.
I was thinking about pressure plate and bearing (thrust?).
agreed that friction material would wear in the transition from drive to no drive.
I'm like you - always keep clutch depressed at the lights - however just today I watched a video and then did some more research and it does seem that we're in the wrong!
If you google something like "holding clutch throwout bearing" you'll see lots of posts agreeing with the above.
Now whether or not this is something that only affects older cars and not newer ones or something like that I have no idea but yeah sounds like there'a consensus. The replacement of a throwout bearing is basically the cost of replacing your clutch so it's no small deal either.
You should only do this IF your car is designed for it. If you've got an older car you'll quickly wear out the starter motor and/or battery and replacing these would quickly offset any money saved / environmental benefit.
@cameldownunder:
Your down votes are a reflection of your unsafe driving habits. Having a vehicle turned off manually at the lights affords you greatly reduced control of the vehicle. Eg what if someone behind you brakes a bit late and you cannot creep forward to avoid the rear end collision?
@BartholemewH: LOL you made my day. Someone behind me braking late, and me having the time to creep forward to avoid rear end collision. Yeahhh Spiderman tingling warning me. Or maybe he crystal ball I take with mi in the car, to see the future.
@cameldownunder:
I often look in the rear vision mirror while cars are pulling up behind me. I have even successfully avoided having someone in front reverse into me by reversing while getting on the horn. If you're not an alert driver that is ok, I just don't recommend turning your vehicle off manually at the lights.
@cameldownunder: Only relevant if your car is designed to do it, they use a different type of alternator and starter motor to what you have in your car so you're just wearing out your flywheel and probably killing your battery and starter motor.
@911r: Where I come from people are doing this since ~20 years. And no one seems to have issues you mentioned.
But it's slightly different, as before the light turns grea, there's an yellow phase, to let drivers know to start their engine.
But this wouldn't work in Australia.
"you're just wearing out your flywheel and probably killing your battery and starter motor." Did you read the content of the link.
stick it in neutral when slowing down to save petrol lol
thats what i was told to. and to save the pressure of the using the clutch…
I turn the car off when slowing down to save petrol.
Put it in reverse to gain petrol!
Hahaha
Never thought of that, but I do leave it in reverse when parking facing down a hill so if it rolls away it rolls up.
Wait a minute, so if i leave my car in reverse while its parked, then i'll have a full tank of petrol when i return ?
I get out and walk when slowing down to save petrol.
Don't you worry that you have turned off power to the car in case you might be rear ended?
Wouldn't it be safer to have the opportunity to get out of the way in a emergency situation.
Sorry it was just a joke.
Actually you don't save petrol by shifting to neutral and slowing down. You save petrol by keeping it in gear and slowing down.
Keeping it in gear and burn out the clutch?
Why would you burn out the clutch when keeping it gear?
A lot of clutch wear happens when you engage and disengage the clutch. You're not supposed to rest the foot on the clutch pedal.
When you're talking about fuel use - neutral + no accelerate > in gear + no accelerate in fuel consumption -> when slowing down. Try this brake to a stop using brake pedal only. In neutral car is still on (what's the car using to keep it going), in gear car stalls off (hmm?)
If you're already stopped at a traffic light, you would be in neutral waiting. Only when it's time to go then you put into gear.
As I said, I'm a beginner so don't judge my questions per topic start.
I really do appreciate any advise given, hence, the reason I have to ask whatever question I have on my mind in order to improve myself as a driver
As I understand it.
If you are coasting and in gear. The wheels are turning your engine over, it requires little/no fuel to do this. Your clutch is fully engaged and not slipping, so no worries about wearing anything out.
If you coast in neutral. There is no external force to turn over the engine, so the engine needs to idle, burn fuel to keep it turning and not stalling.
Some car have instant fuel read out on the dash. My ford focus does and I can see it not using any fuel when coasting in gear.
dont know why you are being downvoted. In a manual you will engage the idle speed when the engine is idling. When braking using the engine compression/gears its using zero or virtually zero fuel depending on the car
Don't quote me as I learned to drive overseas and some time back when snapping cable clutches were a common thing so I could be breaking the rules! I leave the car in neutral when at the lights if I know the lights will take a while, then engage 1st near the time I'm to get a green so I'm ready to take off when required. When slowing down, I also drop down the gears as I'm slowing down but not excessively to brake the car. (Different when I'm driving HT of course)
Most cars have hydraulic clutches now.
Irrespective of hydraulic or cable clutch, the throw out bearing is constantly loaded while your foot is on the clutch. If waiting at a set of lights, the car should be in neutral, foot off the clutch.
Of course. Cable or hydraulics are merely the the mechanism to command the clutch fork to press on the bearing.
Yea its fine but you will use more breaks they will wear a tad quicker. What they want us to do is to use the engine to break like in an Auto.
The issue with the car not being in gear is you could hold up traffic while changing gears to set of. If on a hill i prefer to keep my clutch engaged so the car pushes forward easier to take of without using the hand break.
No need to be in neutral. 1st wont stall till complete stop
when approaching to stop, is it ok to place the transmission/gearbox into neutral
No.
so I don't need to hold down the clutch
You should never be fully depressing the clutch for anything longer than a gear change.
Er; these two statements are entirely contradictory!
How can you be both at a complete stop but not holding the clutch in if he's not putting the car in neutral?
The OP's definition of "approaching to stop" is less than 200-250m and around 20kms. You shouldn't be in neutral then. You should be in neutral when at a "complete stop". Both of their statements seem correct to me.
My bad, I should've clarified that when in motion, you shouldn't fully clutch in longer than a gear change.
Here's how I've done it. If coming to a complete stop -> brake whilst in gear then when you're about to stop shift into neutral and hold onto brake.
If coming to a turn, slow down with brakes whilst in gear, downshift into correct gear and accelerate.
Common misconception is neutral coasting to save petrol - this is wrong. Not only do you make it dangerous for yourself by losing control of your car, you're not even saving petrol vs leaving in gear where petrol consumption is practically 0 when you don't accelerate.
Most cars have fuel cut-off activated when you downshift (engine management makes good use of engine braking this way), which is preferable to run a car economically. I never shift into neutral whilst driving unless almost in a stationary position, waiting for a light etc.
Indeed..it's actually a strategy used to improve the sticker economy. If in gear and closed throttle then close injectors. You can often see this on instant economy gauges if you have one. Whereas if in neutral and closed throttle you will see fuel is still used to maintain stable idle.
When you are coming to a stop 60-0,
leave the car in 4th,
use the brakes to 20,
shift into 2nd
Continue using brakes to slow
Shift into first,
Push clutch in
Come to a complete stop
Neutral.
Simple as that
2nd gear is go gear, and is the best gear to be in, when the unexpected happens.
Not if you want to pass your test. Your car must be in the appropriate gear at all times. Clutch coasting is also a big no-no. And unlike what most people do in their manual cars, using the gears to help brake the car is not permitted. Source: I'm a Qld driving instructor (although I have taught automatic for the past seven years so a manual instructor might be able to correct me if I'm wrong).