Over the last few years I have dramatically reduced my meat intake and over the last few months I have started to follow a strict vegetarian diet for moral, health and environmental reasons.
I would just like to start a discussion about how Ozbargainers view the topic.
This isn't an attempt to convert anyone or a means by which to make vegetarians and vegans feel superior. Rather I would be interested to hear peoples opinions.
Please lets keep the discussion rational and civil! :)
So would the over all change be greater or less than current crops levels? And even if it is far less, we still have to factor in the greater death rate and lingering suffering of the small animals (and insects) associated with crop production. So the over number of deaths could be far higher even if crop-levels were reduced.
We would use much less land overall. In Australia 56% of our total land (429 Mha) is used for grazing for livestock. ~21 Mha is used for non-feed cropping. The actual amount of land used to grow crops specifically for human consumption would be less than that, but I couldn't find any data for it.
On top of that 46 Mha is burnt yearly for pasture maintenance.
http://media.bze.org.au/lur/BZE%20Zero%20Carbon%20Australia%…
How much more land would we use if we switched entirely to a vegetarian diet? I'm not sure. According to these guys:
http://www.veganaustralia.org.au/impact_of_a_vegan_agricultu…
It would be approx 2 Mha extra. Even if that figure was 20x higher, it would still be less than the amount that's burnt each year just to maintain pastures.
All the above isn't even including the effects of global warming, of which agriculture is the biggest contributor to in Australia.
http://www.greenhouse.unimelb.edu.au/pdf_files/Hamilton_Fiel…
Going to have an extra piece of KFC just coz of OP
I love meat. Eat it everyday and hate not eating it because it is amazing.
But I do feel guilty at what we do to animals, and every time I make my own meals, disect or stuff a chicken, I wonder what it would be like if another species were to do the same thing to humans.
Try imagining that next time you eat. It's funny.
Just imagine that aliens began to harvest humans for meat, none of the arguments we now use to justify our meat eating habits will hold if we somehow could communicate this to the aliens
Yep, that's exactly what i think.
The farming process is just cruel and depressing
We eat chicken's periods
Baby animals
Suck out marrow from bone
Grind flesh into a pulp
Crack bone joints for luck
Some countries cook and eat fish while they're still alive
Yet I'm typing this while waiting for my double patty hamburger to be cooked
Much respect to you.
If people choose to eat meat, so be it. Just admitting that you like eating meat seems a lot more genuine than others that are coming up with lame excuses to justify their choices. I mean really, the arguments that plants feel pain is so lame, I wonder if those making those arguments are like plants themselves (brainless, hence don't feel pain). By that argument, snapping the branch off a tree is the moral equivalent of snapping a dogs neck.
OP do you still eat fish though? Lots of these vego mofos harp on about animal welfare and/or environment, yet they still happily eat fish.
Yes I agree! A lot of people now follow a Pescetarian diet.
I personally do not eat any seafood at all, not that I am a big fan of seafood anyway.
After reading a little here, I think ethics/guilt complexes are for city people.
Where I come from everyone owns/wants to own a boat and kill fish and crabs as a relaxing hobby
And on a side note, cows have a wonderful existence here in oz and endure fairly minimal stress on the way to an abattoir and up to the moment a bolt goes through their brain
Nothing like a spit roasted baby lamb; nom nom noms…
Simple exercise/challenge to decide on which diet is better; animal based or plant based. Go 100% on either one and see how you feel.
It is the thought that matters… if and when you eat meat and you imagine animals being slaughtered and feel bad about it, don't do it. If you eat it thinking 'hey it's food', no harm in it. Same goes for vegans too, if and when you eat veges you keep thinking, how many insects creatures have died due to the insecticides that were used during the lifetime of this plant, it's the same thought as meat eats have in first situation…
Also if a vegan person sees a meat eater and thinks 'look at these people eating meat all the time that leads to killing of more animals or have hateful thoughts about other person, then who is going to poison their mind/ body ? :-)
No. Am I going to do it anyway? Yes. I need it for muscle development, so that I'm ready to defend myself when they try to come and eat ME!
The ultimate ozbargain vegan is one who finds a way to eay Eneloops :)
As someone who studies full time science majors at university (Biology and microbiology) I'll say this.
Human evolution is based on an omnivorous diet. We would not be who we are today without this. One such example is our dental structure, which is clearly omnivorous. Regarding morals, we'll see, this is nature. When it comes to evolution and survival, there is little room for it. However, modern day practices are most certainly cruel in many areas. Look into nature, and you will see they are cruel-if not crueler- than us. I'm sure many of you by now have seen the article about a chimp getting tortured and cannibalised. No human involvement here. Some animals even eat there own children when starving. If you are not eating meat purely because you want to stop cruelty in nature, you should rather campaign for better treatment of animals who are farmed and killed to provide large populations of humans with food.
In regards to health, my main problem with a vegan diet is that most of the people who follow them read a few articles and believe them. Meats contain essential nutrients of a wide variety, and in concentrations that cannot be found in plants.
In regard to the environment, farming for plants can be just as bad. The amount of land clearance required, and the amount of pesticides used can affect the environments around them.
From a completely evolutionary and rational perspective (I.e not based on an emotional reaction) meat is ethical and most importantly, key to your health. If it wasn't, humans would have never bothered hunting, cooking, and consuming it when they could have simply eaten plants. Our stomachs as well would have enzymes that allow the full breakdown of certain plant materials (which they currently do not of course). Pretty much everything in a steak is broken down and obsorbed by our bodies, the same cannot be said for many plant based foods. Such as corn or tomatoes. As with everything in life, the key is balance. Having a balanced diet is key, removing one source of food completely is irrational, especially if it's for health reasons…
I'm going to have to politely disagree with your arguments. Just because we have evolved to do something, does not alone justify us continuing to do so when we have the capacity and technology not to.
Nor would I use animals as a baseline of behaviour for humans.
Its perfectly viable to live and thrive on a vegan or vegetarian diet. There aren't any nutrients that can only be obtained from eating meat.
Finally the ecological impact of farming for human consumption is negligible compared to the farming of crops for livestock feed. If you want to minimise the ecological impact, vegetarian or vegan diets will always be superior to ones that include livestock.
Full disclosure: I eat meat. But I'll still admit there is no good argument to do so.
I see you misunderstood my points. About evolution, I clearly stated the diet lead to us here today, and how evolutions effects what we eat I.e the enzymes we have, and what they can break down. Secondly, I did not used animal behaviour as a baseline for humans, I sued animals to point out that "nature" isn't void of violence and brutality when humans are not involved. In regard to nutrients, is would love to see a vegan eat enough vegan based food to get the same benefit thata single omnivorous meal does. E.g High concentrations of omega 3 in fish, high amino acids/proteins in meats. If they do exist in certain plants, you'll have to eat a whole lot, or take supplements. In which, you support the pharma industry, which is just as bad if not worse. Furthermore, plants these days have far less nutrients in them than they used to, because (depends on the area/country of course) farms often reuse the same plot of ground for farming plants, thus leading to the soil losing its nutrients, and therefore the plants themselves containing less. I've studied this.
In regard to environment, I said "can be" not always. When pesticides are overused, or other man made substances make their way to the surrounding environments, they do cause damage, I've studied this as well. No doubt animal farming has adverse affects- such as methane and co2 emissions-however both indeed have negative impacts, and neither are "negligible".
@ahbal few articles!! Meat is "key" to our health? Please Explain
I explained it in the previous comment. Nutrients found in meat are not found (and if they are found in plants, in much lower concentrations) in plants. Is it possible to live on a vegan diet? Yes of course, you won't have a balanced diet though. Which means you will miss out key nutrients in certain amounts that meats have in them. You either take supplements, or have to get used to eating a lot of the few plants that do have these nutrients, if any at all. I highly doubt you can get a comparable serving of omega 3 for example in a single vegan meal without supplements. And, if you do take supplements, then why go vegan in the first place? The pharma industry is just as bad if not worse than the animal farming industry.
Edit: I reread my first comment. It was adequately explained right after the few words you quoted.
NOT TRUE Ahbal. Vegan diet can be balanced and there are quite a few societies who do that without any long term health problems. If you are really keen I can show you the research. But please do not push the myth when we already have so many floating already.
You said essential nutrients without ever mentioning what they are. The thing is there are people who read this and take it as gospel without ever verifying it. So I want to know how you got your information.
Again, you clearly did not read any of my comments fully. I very clearly stated my info comes from my studies through science at university, not some random, non peer reviewed article on the Internet that you read. I very clearly stated amino acids/proteins as the nutrients in question.
Seems to me you are just cherry picking here
@Ahbal:
You might say that the "key" to increased health, height and even IQ in modern society compared to our great grandparents is improved childhood nutrition, primarily through increased meat consumption. Though hygiene and public health is big too.
Actually, the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 is more important that just the amount of omega 3, and vegans tend to have a much better ratio already than meat eaters (meat and dairy are high in omega 6).
It's incredibly easy to have enough omega 3 in a vegan diet with a small serving of natural products (not supplements) like flax seeds, chia seeds, beans.
Fish are packed with all sorts of heavy metals and contaminants (I'm a marine scientist). Fish don't make omega 3, they get it from algae, you can skip the unnecessary contaminants and just eat the algae too (also vegan!).
I have cut back on my meat intake and often opt for chicken when eating out. Red meat takes several days to be fully processed by the body. I use tofu to bulk out my meals. Bland, but I use Chilli Powder to give it some oomph!
Meat in the diet boosts childrens' growth (Just look at the Vietnamese who could not afford meat)
http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050221/full/news050221-5.htm…
But once you become an adult, you should cut down on meat consumption.
Red meat, such as beef, lamb and pork has been classified as a ‘probable’ cause of cancer.
Processed meats – including ham, salami, sausages and hot dogs – are a Group 1 carcinogen.
https://www.cancercouncil.com.au/21639/cancer-information/ca…
Also I care about animal welfare.
I find Halal treatment of animals cruel too.
http://www.halalchoices.com.au/
I am a vegan. The most unethical thing about eating meat are the capitalist practices around food production such as factory farming, and the exploitation of people that goes along with exploiting animals. Having said that, I think meat is yuk so I wouldn't eat it even if I did agree with the source.
While I do think eating less meat is important, not eating meat is not for everyone. For some people it would be damaging to their health. For others, seeking out enough 'ethical' meat to feed their family is simply not something they're rich enough to do.
Most of all I just hope that people will think critically about the ways they consume, food or otherwise.
If you stopped eating meat for your own reasons, ethical or health wise, doesn't matter, good on you. What I can't stand is the ones who criticise and judge you for eating meat from their mobile phones wearing fancy clothes and owning material things made from human suffering - that seems to be ok. I can't stand those people.
I completely understand what you're saying and I hope I havent come across as condescending or anything and if I have I apologise.
As valid as your statement is, and we most definitely need to analyse our choices when it comes to the above, our diets are still included in this analysis.
Sorry, not sure what you mean in your second paragraph?
Dont be sorry! I mean that we need to critically look at the choices we make about the products we buy (like clothes and mobile phones etc.) but that in addition to this we need to critically explore our dietary choices.
The simple fact that we support unethical practices by wearing designer clothing etc. doesnt mean we cant or shouldnt explore dietary choices.
But I agree with you in being unable to stand people who preach and look down on people who arent vegos (hope I havent done this!)
I agree with everything you said. But it's like you mentioned, the people who look down on others for eating meat really annoy me.
My point was never to say people can't choose their diets. It was just the hypocrisy of certain people.
I appreciate your logical response. Wish more people were like you about it(I am assuming you're vegan/vegetarian). If more people where like you, more would actually listen and possibly change their diet.
Yes and that attitude appears to be prevalent in the vegan/vegetarian population and this is a problem!
Not just in dietary matters but in all discourse I think we need to be open to ideas and open to having our own opinions and beliefs questioned and analysed.
Thanks for the discussion! :)
I have thought about this before and im pretty sure that more living things would die producing vegetables than producing livestock. Sure, a bug is not as big as a cow but does that mean its life is any less valuable? Not only do living things die when the soil is prepared, they also die when sprayed with pestacides throughout the growing process and then the fact that animals that try to eat the crops (eg. Rabbits) are normally hunted and shot. Also, if you had a choice between being thrown in a grinder and dieing instantly or being sprayed with poison and having what I would assume would be an excruciating death over a 30 minute period, which would you pick? I dont have any proof because this is just my personal thought and im sure some super vegan is going to tell me otherwise.
As our mate doctor Karl says: eat everything in moderation, mostly greens
Thats offensive to reds and yellows. They demand equal eating!
so we shouldn't eat carrots, red/yellow capsicums, eggplants etc?
Is it a subjective or objective question ?
I understand the health and environment impact, but what kind of moral are you talking about ?
Are you asking what the moral issues are around humans eating meat?
what the moral issues are around humans eating meat?
Yes, indeed
Some people believe it's wrong to kill animals for personal pleasure.
Some people argue that meat production is bad for the environment.
Some people believe eating vegetarian is healthier.
Some people believe eating vegetarian is unhealthy.
(I don't believe either way, whether you are vegetarian or not, there's plenty of ways to live super healthy or super unhealthy).
@MrTweek: So it's a subjective morality, as I said, I can understand the impact it has on health and environment. But I fails to understand why it is 'morally' wrong to consume meats. So rather it's personal choice. That's very hard to change, no one can do more than their belief (right or wrong is another matter).
@frewer:
Yeah, if there was an objective answer, there wouldn't be a thread about this, OP could just read up on wikipedia ;)
That's very hard to change
I disagree with that one though. Most vegetarians started their lifes as meat eaters and at one point changed their personal habits for whatever reason.
That's very hard to change
As in a sense of talking to other ( external changing ), not personal choice ( internal changing ). I have been on both side so I totally understand both side
Stupid question.
Interesting thread - I've enjoyed reading it so far. As of a couple of years ago I began eating red meat more frequently due to an iron deficiency. Supplements did not work well for me (I very rarely ate red meat).
I guess I don't consider the moral/ethical dilemmas, as I've seen a significant improvement in my overall health and well-being. But if I was perfectly healthy otherwise - I might think differently.
Make sure you have some Vit C after eat meat to increase the iron intake. Or get yourself an iron fish, as suggested here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lf6glgKt3Q&ab_channel=TEDxT…
Great, thanks for the tip!
I really hate these discussions cause it just screams bashing one side or the other, due to an arbitrary ideal. Should we eat meat or not?
Meat was needed to survive in early years of man, and i feel that rings true up to modern day. Now though we can get by with no loss to dietary needs due to modern alternatives.
This is a subject worth just leaving, who cares if you eat meat or not.
Just dont be Vegan…unless you want psychic super powers like Todd Ingram.
I would disagree, I think it is a discussion that needs to be had. This just shows the arrogance of man. How can you be aware of the suffering so many millions of animals go through simply to satisfy our desire to eat a steak over a vegetarian dish? Not even taking into account environmental impacts etc.
A discussion that just incites bashing one side or the other, is a discussion best left alone.
i have learnt no matter what a person's personal decision or opinion, we are just wasting energy discussing something that will never change. People have opinions and views that differ, who gives a F***.
You can be aware of most things in the world, but worrying about everything does not change anything, it just makes you incite irrational thoughts and behaviors.
Have your opinions and beliefs, but keep them behind closed doors is best.
If it incites bashing then that says more about the people taking part in this discussion than it does for the argument. To take the view that because it is a difficult discussion it should not take place is crazy!
Would you say the same for religious beliefs?
@Heracles26: I find religion an archaic belief. Religion in my mind was a general population control method putting faith into something that does not exist, making it into some form of indoctrination.
But my opinion does not matter as some may think im some kind of whack job with fringe theories, but i dont discuss it cause its not needed. I know what i dont like or believe, and im happy with it. Discussing such things will 100% of the time offend someone, not talking about has the opposite effect.
conflicts happen when 2 opposing ideals clash.
Nothing much to it, can be race, religion all the way to how we treat our food. it's just pointless asking people to discuss when its just someone flogging how the grass is greener on the other side.
a great example of futility is this chain of messages, no matter what i say you are standing your ground and i will stand mine. If i see your side or not does not matter. If you were truly wanting to discuss something you would probably ignore me altogether as im not budging, so its either you keep going for kind of validation, or try your hand at someone else.
@Velathial: Religion is way to make a large population do something that they otherwise wouldn't e.g. Circumcision,diets, or even genocide.
Most people agree that it is unethical to torture and kill animals for entertainment.
Humans need to eat, but we don't need to eat a lot of animal products. It's also easy to argue that most people don't need to eat any animal products in a properly planned Vegan diet to promote health.
Westerners tend to eat far more than the dietary recommendations. Many people eat animal products because they like the taste.
So are these people eating for entertainment? Certainly not nutritional needs.
When it boils down it, for the vast majority of people, it is simply as you have said, a matter of taste. I love the taste of meat I just dont think it is the best decision to eat it.
At least in the cities of first world countries, eating meat is only a matter of personal preference and pleasure.
Eating vegetarian is neither hard nor expensive nor unhealthy.
I'm not too fuzzed what other people eat, but saying they need to eat meet to survive is bullshit.
I'm an omnivore and will eat pretty much anything and im sure if i had to kill an animal " myself " to eat it i could'nt , but saying that we are all vampires really , we must consume living/once living things to survive wether we like it or not……. oh and plus char grilled steak taste's freakin fantastic .
What are you saying, that it is unethical to eat anything at all? That eating a plate of figs is equivalent to eating dolphin meat ethics-wise for you?
Dont be ridiculous …. i hate figs and im sure we can all agree Tuna does'nt taste as good since it became dolphin safe ;-)
Two choices for a forum discussion
Is it ethical to eat meat?
Is it ethical to beat your meat?
Is it ethical to eat meat while beating your meat?
Option 3 is just a tad weird. But what ever floats your goat.
Either one would have be fine as a discussion topic!
in conclusion:
please consider.
But do plants have the ability to suffer? To feel pain?
Is suffrage limited to the pain we can empathise with? i.e. bleeding, whimpering?
Pain is subjective, bleeding and whimpering are merely potential signs of pain. Speaking from a physiological perspective, at this stage in our understanding, it appears that plants do not have the ability to feel pain, there is nothing anatomically or physiologically as we know it that could support the idea that they do feel pain
@Heracles26: But why do we draw the line at pain? Surely we can develop a method for slaughtering animals that involves no pain, i.e. cryopreservation -> slaughter? does that make it as okay as harvesting plants?
I see what you are saying and you are making a good point. Are plants conscious the same way animals are? i would argue that they are not (future research may change this) and I think thats where the distinction lies
@Heracles26: Are all animals conscious the same way mammals are? Why is it okay to step on ants (we make no conscious effort to avoid it) and some vegetarians find it reasonable to consume fish.
I would be hard-pressed trying to categories all life into two buckets of consciousness.
That is the question! We dont even know what consciousness is. Of course there are likely many degrees of consciousness but at this stage I think it is safe to say that there is a difference in conscious awareness between animals and plants
To justify meat eating requires the bending of common sense. Where previously, most don't care about the welfare of vegetables, when it comes to making arguments against vegetariansm, suddenly, vegetable lives matter.
Please consider.
Best post so far
Green lives matter
Interesting how that happens isn't it. People suddenly care about vegetable welfare, fossil fuels, whales and all sorts of other issues. Oh you have chosen to cut meat out of your diet? But don't you know that there are other issues in the world? Why aren't you doing more about all of the other issues????? Why are you trying to make me stop eating meat? I'll eat meat if i want to! Leave me alone! Waahhhh! Honestly I have never started a discussion myself on the topic but always find some very vocal people who want to point out why my choice is the wrong choice.
I was shocked to learn the story on how animals in abattoir are mistreated in Victoria. Do you think it's same throughout Australia or innocent until proved guilty?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-23/echuca-abattoir-under-…
As far as ethics are concerned, they should not dictate whether or not you consume the produce once it hits the shelves.
Whether or not the production is ethical is another question, and it largely varies given the fact that vegetarians/vegans do not deem it ethical at all, where as regulation authorities go as far as to call certain living conditions "ethical" for the animals which ultimately become produce.
So whether or not you consume the produce is a question of supporting those who do and do not abide by ethical practices that you believe in.
Therefore there is no definitive answer to this question, and it's up to you to decide.
You may offset your impact on animal suffering by donating to:-
https://www.soidog.org/
http://www.wires.org.au/
https://www.rspca.org.au/start-your-donation-story
or you can just flush your money down the toilet.
same thing
I respectfully disagree. For example, Soidog is staffed by volunteers. They give free medical treatment to stray animals. And they have a desexing program for desexing stray dogs and cats, so that there are less stray animals starving and being abused.
another solution is to send them to china/vietnam/laos etc. for human consumption.
same result, less animals are starved and abused. more humans are fed.
@insular: It sounds barbaric, but no worse than shipping cattle I suppose. As long as the animals are treated humanely throughout the process, then I cannot argue with this.
Was the electronic device you typed this on ethically Vegan? The desk, the chair you were sitting on? The electricity powering your device Vegan friendly? The clothes you are wearing as you typed the question Vegan friendly?
I dont understand what argument you are attempting to make?
You stated you started to "follow a strict vegetarian diet for moral, health and environmental reasons."
From a moral and environmental point of view, true veganism should encompass everything from clothing to technology, not just diet. Looking at whether the companies you are buying anything from (tech, clothes, cosmetics) all have sustainable environmental strategies in place.
You are right, and many long term vegans are acutely aware of unexpected sources of animal products, from white sugar to novels and LCDs. Please consider though, that it is not practicable to exclude all sources of exploitation of animals. This idea is built into the very idea of veganism. https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
If ethical reasons caused one to reduce exploitation and cruelty to animals, then logically one would choose to start by looking at major factors that are easily within ones control such as ones diet and clothing.
So its an all or nothing approach?
@Heracles26:
No but it annoys me when people convert to began Vegan and preach about it without a true understanding that being Vegan encompasses much more than just food. I laugh when I see someone going on about being Vegan whilst they are carrying a leather handbag or wallet and wearing leather shoes. Some brands are making PU "leather" versions of their shoes now for Vegans. They are charging the same price as the leather versions,so it means they are making much more profit too. Win/win situation there lol
IMO most Vegans are really just vegetarians. But hey, Vegan sounds so much more trendy
@insular: No, that is not what he said.
Even if that's case, that is most vegans hypocrites because they don't wear cloths ethically, then what are meat eaters… honest barbarians?
@hobbsthetiger: i wouldn't call myself a barbarian, as i purchase most of my meat from the supermarket (eg. coles). i am a consumer of products that have been offered to me for a reasonable price. DOWN DOWN.
also, wikipedia defines a barbarian as "A barbarian is a human who is perceived to be either uncivilised or primitive."
i wouldn't say i am uncivilised, and i'm not primitive because i have an iphone.
and a quick google image search of barbarian, i wish i looked like that, probably should buy that squat rack from aldi.
i'll get there in no time, with all the animal protein i consume.
@insular: well, you have missed the point completely. Let me make it simpler. What I asked you was that if you follow the same logic you applied to vegans, what would make the meat eaters.
@hobbsthetiger: i haven't missed the point. it's that the point is stupid. vegans claim to be ethical when they are often hypocrites and then go on to (repeatedly) claim meat eaters (or users of animal products) are the same (in fact it's one of their main arguments).
i don't claim to be 'ethical' and never have. and i'm not a hypocrite because i would gladly slit the throat of a pig for bacon (or any other animal for that matter). it's just more convenient to buy it from the supermarket.
the problem is, you've labelled meat eaters barbarians for 'shock value'. when most consumers of meat and dairy are nothing of the sort. at a stretch you could claim a meat eater is 'complicit' in murder (which vegans often do), but you would also be complicit in the same thing by using any product or service made from animal material.
http://www.neatorama.com/2013/09/24/5-Surprising-Things-That…
@insular: You are in the right, my logic was off.
I think I was subconsciously comparing a meat eater to someone who is unknowingly use products made of animals.
I don't think it is possible/easy to achieve perfection with regard to animal ethics. I think those who try to do as much as they can are more commendable, than those who disregard ethics of animal consumption.
I started for environmental/overall health reasons (I didn't really consider animal rights when making the choice). Something I didn't expect though (and I put down to having always loved cooking and being an avid gamer) was that upon making the switch I found it to be like upping the difficulty on a game. The challenge of making a dishes I took for granted without using meat and without compromising them when substituting ingredients was both fun and rewarding. It definitely taught me a lot about balancing flavours. I don't like preachy vegetarians/vegans though, and I personally have no interest in converting others from a moral/ethical standpoint, I believe people should make their own minds up and I try to avoid bringing it up in social situations unless unavoidable as I've found some personality types feel the need to grill you (terrible pun sorry) on it or attempt to validate their own lifestyle by trying to attack yours.
Thanks for the post. The majority of people cannot partake in rational discourse when their beliefs are put under the scope. One need only read through many of the comments here to see that.
Actually I think most of this thread seems to be pretty civil given you posted about the question of morality/ethics of eating meat haha, you have to expect proponents and opponents :). Nobody really seems to be attacking anyone and you can ingore the comments that have no substance (eg: "stupid question"). As long as you're happy with your choice!
I believe Vego's to be good people..its the Vegans who we all need to watch out for!
Heracles26 sounds like a good Vego who would go out to dinner with everybody and let people pick what they want and enjoy his own meal. Then having to contend with everybody around the table gazing at his food, surprised with how good it looks.
Vegans tend to be more fanatical!
If we stopped all meat farming, yes, animal feed crops wouldn't be required. But likewise, the crops for feeding humans would need to greatly increase to make up for the dramatic decrease in our meat consumption.
So would the over all change be greater or less than current crops levels? And even if it is far less, we still have to factor in the greater death rate and lingering suffering of the small animals (and insects) associated with crop production. So the over number of deaths could be far higher even if crop-levels were reduced.
On top of that, the economically valuable and productive land that was previously used for raising meat would also be available for increases in non-feed cropping purposes, such as bio-fuels, building materials, etc. Again, the over all death rate and suffering could climb far more dramatically.
I haven't seen any estimates on the likely impact from these factors, but without such figures, no one can definitively say that not eating meat reduces suffering.