Hi, just wondering what Oz Bargains thoughts are on this.
[edit] Seems this post has pissed a lot of people off.
I was asking for peoples thoughts on weather taking your exact amount of paid sick leave every year is milking the system, weather you are sick or not.
I was not asking for "help" on what I should do, what the employees situation is, or the reasons my job requires me to look into this.
Whatever oz-bargain, have fun.
Though the concept was that you go to work not to do projects you want to do but projects that your boss wants you to do that makes money for the business and in turns pays your wages?
No a bad company would just sack you.
Big companies can't do that.
They give you plenty of opportunities, until they just 'manage' you out.
You seem to be reading into what I wrote more than there is. Chicken and the egg, if you aren't abusing your role/entitlements you won't have any problems. Generally people who abuse their entitlements have other issues at work ie underperformance
You go to work to do a job, some people want the money and the entitlements without doing work
10 days is easily chewed through if you get a cold three times a year and do the responsible thing and stay away from work.
Yep, without commenting on the specific person being mentioned by the OP, the weirdest thing in Australian office culture is the "don't come in if you're sick" attitude mixed with the "you're a bludger/faking if you take sick days". Love those lose-lose situations.
Also: Australian management in general from my experience seems to operate under the illusion they are qualified medical professionals and can remotely diagnose their workers - and even second guess actual medical doctors diagnosis of their worker.
Knew a bank manager who after time figured our who the fakers were, would plead for them to come in and if they still felt sick to then go home.
They never did have to go home.
Perhaps that was more to do with the fact that the manager was pleading with them to come in? If my manager asked me to come in despite them thinking I had a cold, I would assume it's because they really needed me on the day.
I know it shouldn't be my problem if I'm genuinely sick, but what person wouldn't feel guilty knowing their absence was causing stress for others?
Completely agree. I get sick with the flu almost every year, usually takes 'around' a full week to get better. A few years I have gone over my 10 days and I always request the extra days be taken out of my annual so i stay in the allotted. HR love that. I don't even feel like I am a person who gets sick easy, I don't know how my gf does it she's sick like every day but never takes time off. I got sick of dealing with people coming into my work sick because of they are scared of being seen as bludgers by taking sickies, so I spoke with my boss and mentioned it was his responsibility to provide a safe environment to work in. Having people come in sick is not a safe environment, its a vicious circle of illness!
@Baghern: well, why would you? If you've been dragged into going to work, why burn a sick day going home?
thats what it's there for and all part of the companies responsibility
if your the company owner your entitled to ask for sick notes
if your just being a busy body get over it maybe look into how may times the person has used A/L because of illness because they have used all the s/l sometimes there is a bigger picture.
this doesn't belong here on a forum i'm saying that in your best interest you could end up in more bother than them for abusing the system as it appears by your statement.
"if your the company owner your entitled to ask for sick notes" This depends on the enterprise agreements applying to the employees.
all i said was "entitled to ask" doesn't mean they have to be given as you say depends on policies.
Does not depend on any policies at all they can have all the policies they like but my enterprise agreement is the law.
FFS
i think people need to start worrying about their own business
EA fall back to employee relations so your agreement might not state it because it's covered by the general act
@Toons: The EA is recognized as Australian law it does not fall back to employee relations it overrides it.."i think people need to start worrying about their own business" i do not understand this comment please explain.
Maybe their financial situation doesn't allow them to take sick leave if they have used it all up? I work in health and with kids so I get sick a lot from all those kids sneezing in my face unexpectedly… So I use up all my sick days every year… I am lucky enough not to be in want and can take sick days without pay but assuming some can't afford to?
They can also use annual leave?
Good point didn't think about that
Somehow I doubt OP is looking at when the employee uses AL to cover a day they might otherwise use as SL. They could in fact need 20 days sick leave, so taking 10 days AL instead, as they cannot afford taking Unpaid Leave instead.
What relevance does their race and sex have in this discussion?
we have flexible timings/work from home at work and one of my colleagues is milking it by working another job while claiming to work from home. white woman.
does that make you feel better dragonindespair
@jdf: You should report that shit…seriously. I've known scumbags who've done that, it's utterly reprehensible conduct.
I predicted this! It's curry fury!
I did especially since what is a privilege should not be abused to the point that it is pulled back. Arranged a meeting with her manager at the mall food court over some project details that needed to be discussed and then strolled past where she worked on our way back.
She left the next week.
I pointed this incident out to show that it really comes down to the individual at the end of the day. And this without even taking into account the fact that once you have one or more kids, your SL goes very quickly when they are sick.
*Doesn't matter.
If you were my employee, I'd fire you for this.
You've been trusted with elevated access to people personal and private information and you're abusing it.
For what? For anonymously reporting that some other anonymous person did something at an unknown company?
I'm not too keen on the unnecessary reporting of her gender and country of (ancestral) origin but it's not like they outed anyone.
For what?
That would be the accessing of the confidential personal information of a colleague. The de-identified anecdote here is somewhat irrelevant.
Depending on the database system, if there's any kind of file review reconciliation process, without a valid reason for searching, this could bring the person looking at the data unstuck in a big way.
I'm in a position where I could conceivably look up the health records of family, friends & colleagues; however, I would never even think to do it…that would be douchebaggery of a higher level than I am capable.
@StewBalls: But as someone working in the employees business in accounting that information is part of your day to day job. You don't go seeking it out - you just notice it because you have to lodge their day as a sick day.
@tantryl: Appropriate access is likely task specific, if you had a valid reason to be accessing their file, great…however, if you informally notice a pattern personally & go looking into their record without delegation, whammo.
@StewBalls: that's… an incredibly impractical view of how humans work. When you're adding a sick day to someone's profile you can see the other sick days. Reports are done about this sort of thing.
If sinishta was an admin assitant or something who had nothing to do with lodging those days I'd get your point. But someone in accounting has to look at that as part of their job.
@tantryl: Welcome to how the real world works, it's not always logical or practical…it is what it is.
Sinishta never said why he was looking into his colleague, just that he did…assuming that he did so officially is drawing a long bow IMHO…nowhere in his comment did he mention being tasked with adding those days.
@StewBalls: It's drawing a regular bow and hitting a target of "the arrow was released". It's literally part of the accounting departments job.
@tantryl:
Depends on the size of the company, our accounts department have nothing to do with sick leave. That is handled by HR admins and payroll officers.
@StewBalls: They have a job that requires them to trawl through and approve/pay for these leave occurrences while allocating properly so that the business keeps track of when they are paying for Work hours, sick leave, annual leave, carer's leave, compassionate leave, etc. And simply remembering an occurrence of this data. Even if not on Payroll or HR, Accountants still keep track of what money is being spent where.
Apparently that's an offence worth firing them? You sound like an abhorrent manager.
You are a horribly racist person. Do everybody a favour and stop polluting this forum with your disparaging remarks. Have a neg - compliments of the Kaptn.
You are a horribly racist person
Wow, you are awfully judgemental. Have a neg and a L
lol I haven't seen anyone negged this much in a while for saying two non-vulgar words
Welcome to 2017
What? As opposed to all the Aussies milking the system.
if they are sick with the flu or even a bad cold management have a responsibility to send them home otherwise the are creating an unsafe workplace for others. It could potentially lead to workcover claim form someone else. If they haven't already infected other staff they will, which will mean someone else will have to use their sick leave.
I'm not against the occasional sickie but coming to work and passing on their illness just because they don't have any leave is is not just irresponsible but plain inconsiderate.
I would recommend this as well.
They are currently at work and sick with a flu, but won't take the day off because they are 'ok to work'
This is not ok.
i agree while i hate people taking fake sick days i hate people coming to work sick and spreading their illness to prove a point
Somehow I voted on this when I clicked here. Take 1 from "They are smart for taking what they are entitled to" ;)
Definitely milking the system. I haven't taken sick leave in my 6 years of working.
Are you sure they aren't just running out of sick leave each year and taking the rest as unpaid/annual?
This is an age old question like Ford vs Holden, pro or anti euthanasia/abortion, etc…you're either one or the other.
I think this person is more than likely taking advantage of their sick leave allowance.
I think a lot of people do this, as one person commented, it is an "Aussie tradition".
Although I consider myself tight, I'm morally against taking sickies (personally). I worked for a previous company for 7 years and never took a "sickie"; I did take sick leave when genuinely sick…but I think I still had over 60 when I left the company. My wife argued I was throwing money away and should have taken them as "sickies" or "mental health days"…which people often do before just before they leave a job.
I also resent or dislike when people come to work sick, potentially infecting their colleagues ( i.e. me) and essentially reducing productivity even further.
Never a day less or a day over.
How can you take more than 10 if you only get 10? Do you mean unpaid sick leave?
How can you take more than 10 if you only get 10? Do you mean unpaid sick leave?
Yes sorry, they have never taken unpaid sick leave.
If they can't afford to take unpaid leave, they may be clocking it as Annual Leave instead, or just bearing it in the office as they are out of Sick Leave.
and they haven't taken annual along side these sick leaves?
its employee entitlement, so if they are using it, dont get suspicious or disagree.
same like ok you are entitled to $50,000 salary per year.
will you say, oh thats fine i take $49,000 only.
Or on the other side of the fence: Its an entitlement for when you are sick and unable to work. If you are not sick and unable to work, you are not entitled to it?
sick can be mentally, not always sick cant walk because a tank hit you from behind.
Not sure if sick of work is counted…
lol
Sick and unable to work is a pretty big grey area though - as dragonindespair already pointed out it could be a mental illness or it could be an illness that doesn't present any (detectable) physical symptoms such as a migraine - that doesn't render them any less sick than someone who has thrown their back out.
The thing is, due to privacy you'll never find out anyway, so why concern yourself with it?
I think this is one of those instances where the 'Worry about yourself, not others' rule comes into play - the employee is legally entitled to the 10 sick days each year so whether or not they are actually sick isn't overly relevant. I've worked with people previously who would schedule their 'sick' days with co-workers, it's not something I was ever a fan of but it also didn't really affect me so I wasn't too phased about it.
Yes, worrying about things not in your control is good advice in general. However, personally if I knew for a fact (and here we do not), that a colleague was taking sickies, I would lose a bit of respect for them, but I know their values may not be aligned to mine (and I know it is commonplace), so I don't let it affect me that much.
Similarly to the way I dislike smokers that just drop their cigarette butts on the ground and leave them in the street. I don't like smoking in general, but why can't you dispose of your cigarette butts like any other piece of garbage? Would that same person just walk down the street and drop a chip packet or plastic bottle? It makes no sense to me…
I never used any sick leave, thinking I could save it up and use it in addition to annual leave for a holiday - was disappointed to learn that's not how it works.
Ever since then I feel like an absolute failure if I don't utilise all my sick leave. It's a condition of your employment, an entitlement - just as much yours as your pay check.
It's not "milking the system" to use something that was agreed upon when you signed your initial employment contract.
It is milking the system, because sick leave is meant to be taken if you are sick. Taking it when you are not sick is not what it was designed for.
I'm not sure if every State is the same, but wasn't it renamed from Sick leave to Personal leave. With the intent being it be used when sick, caring for others, or for personal/family emergencies?
Yes, mine is called personal leave with those definitions. I just didn't want to complicate matters further.
Yes I include those other scenarios in the definition of sick leave also. I am just personally against "sickies", e.g. taking a holiday with it or going to the beach instead of work because it's a nice day…i.e. something one should be using annual leave for.
@John Kimble: But you can't take annual with a call to your boss that morning, you have to apply 2 weeks in advance :P
Turtle
Please shut this one down
i hope your on leave not discussing work issues on an open forum while at work.
I need to get off this website too…so addictive…spending way to much time on it recently :/
Never knew an f5 buttkn could get worn out so quickly let alone at all.
Who needs F5 when you have Super Auto Refresh Chrome Extension <3
There is a way to get off now?
turtlemaster needs to get a life….or take a sicky
Absolutely none of your business to be honest. This person may have an underlying, chronic health condition that you know nothing about. The working conditions we have are there to be used. Frankly, worrying about one person taking 10 days sick leave whilst elected officials are rorting expenses claims seems a bit off.
worrying about one person taking 10 days sick leave whilst elected officials are rorting expenses claims seems a bit off
I agree with your comment on elected officials rorting expense claims.
That said, I think if you owned and run a small business and had a staff do this to you… I am sure you might revisit the first part of your comment.
At the end of the day, there's nothing you can do if they're supplying a doctor's note every time.
So I'd put them in both Poll options :)
I work for a big company and we have a policy that you need a sick leave certificate if you take anymore than 5 days sick leave within a calendar year; you are entitled to 10 days it is just that at least 5 of them have to have a certificate. (Sick leave also carries over, but you still can only have 5 days without a certificate). Not sure if it is strictly enforced, but they could if they wanted to and the employee seemed to be pulling a fast one. I think most of us here would think the person is playing the system, but we don't know the medical background or the work environment. You might want to enforce something like that in the company if you were really concerned, but you do run the risk of annoying people and you can't really make it just this one person 'cause, presumably, that would be discrimination.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid…
Let me guess - the employee in question gets mediocre pay rises and no promotions … but they're content with that.
If the employee is performing his/her duties to an acceptable standard or higher, does it matter whether they have used up their sick leave entitlements?
This here.
While it may not feel 'nice' you're being taken advantaged of, at the end of the day nothing has been brokened. They're getting their jobs done and they're using what has been secured for them. The danger is actually if the employee does get very sick, then they will be off without pay.
I wouldn't stress too much. The more you stress about this, the more you are consumed and…well, i've worked with superiors who have gone down too deep.
Does another member of the team have to take over their duties whilst they are off 'sick' would be a better question
Everyone has a level of comfort with these sort of things.
Recently at a dinner party with friends, a friend mentioned on their recent holiday (with his then gf) when checking into their hotel, he said it was his honeymoon (when it wasn't). They placed a complementary champagne and strawberries (or something similar) in his room because of this. Some people would think, that's a good idea, might try that next time, some people would think, that is dishonest and would never think of doing that themselves.
I've got a friend who does this. But he's a very swell guy, he helps others a lot. So I suppose if you pay it forward…
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. I left my previous job after 8 years and any unused sick leave accumulated and by the time I left I had over 40+ "sick" days banked up which offcourse I forfeited.
sounds like this person is a consistent performer
DisabledUser113084
haha
Did anyone notice what date he joined?
You used to be able to click on the disableduser name and the join date and other details would come up but for some reason it's greyed out for this user.
Yes, that's what I suspected.
If the person also took unpaid leave I don't think he would be milking the system but there is some real issue going on.
And yes also at my company we have to provide medical certificates if we are more than x days sick.
But in summary, yes this looks very suspicious but always depends on personal circumstances and based on the overall leave the person has taken.
They are just taking their entitlement. As an employer you can always ask for a Doctors certificate as confirmation. Not much else you can you really.
If the employee is not performing satisfactorily on top of this then you can always sack them but might end up with worse.
Some employers accept this as a potential productivity issue and instead pay any unused sick leave out as a year-end bonus. So improves productivity as long as it doesn't encourage sick employees to come to work and infect others. Worth considering. Its a win win situation.
The person could be searching for a new job. Quite often you get called for an interview on short notice and cant afford to ask your employer for leave because if they say no its too dodgy to then take the sick day.
The person is most likely feeling watched by other people and is fed up with people watching the clock instead of the productivity. They most likely start work at 7am, leave at 5 but because the boss works from 10 to 5:30 they get comments that they aren't working long enough.
Everyone else probably bends over backwards to please the boss, and all come in when they are sick. Then this poor person catches the flu about 15 times a year, but cant afford to take the extra 5 days off because it would be unpaid.
How many sick days to the others take ? If its zero, maybe they are the problem.
Your sick leave can accumulate as well. It's there to be used under whatever rules your employer has in place (not guidelines)!
Aussie tradition.. love it! I was told aussies go to work when your sick, go to the beach on your sick day!
One of the most ridiculous posts ever. Did OP want us to follow a script?
Depending on what industry you are in can also add to determining whether you are fit to work for the day.
I work in an industry with a lot of driving and involves electrical work(240volt +). Neither of these should be undertaken while you are fatigued/sick as could lead to further harm to yourself or others. I not only have look after the welfare of myself but anyone else on my site related to my work apprentices/customers/general public.
The other question worth asking is what are the work conditions like for the employee. High absentee rates are usually a sign that they do not enjoy their work.
They are entitled to it.
What used to be known as "sick leave" seems to have now been bundled under a new heading called "Personal Leave" so the employee doesn't necessarily have to be sick to take it. It could be compassionate leave, carer's leave or something similar.
Young kids get sick often and it's not unusual to see parents take both their personal and annual leave to look after them.
Who knows - that employee might be taking their 10 days per year, plus their annual leave (when they run out of their personal leave) to take care of their sick kids or parents. In that case, it's going to appear that they've exhausted their sick leave every year because you're not going to question their annual leave.
After all, personal leave IS an entitlement - the cost of which any business should have factored into the potential cost of doing business.
This, of course, is not to say that this particular employee isn't milking the system.
It just means that you've got to look at things on a case-by-case basis. It's difficult to generalise. If there's a need, then that person's direct manager should be spoken to first before because the manager might have more knowledge on the employee's personal situation.
Being sick is subjective, you dont have to have a cold to be sick of your job. Also mental issues and stress arent really recognised in this country.
Does this employee just happen to think they can do your job better than you can: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/286684
It's companies like yours, that think so little of their employees they find ways to punish them, that causes people to take all of their entitlements. Reap what you sow.