Bought QFF Points using Family Xfer - Qantas Have Suspended my Account Pending Investigation

Gerbud on 02/03/2016 - 14:12
Last edited 02/03/2016 - 14:13

Hey,

So the other night, I could not login online to my account. Called up Qantas and said my account was under investigation.

Guy called me today and said that they have audited my account and want proof that the family x-fers of points were coming from actual family members.

I have had 5 xfers in the past few months (2 from my GF so no issues there) and 3 from people who I bought online from.

I have been given 21 days and told that if I can not prove these points were from family members, they will be cancelled and my account will be suspended.

I have already used most of the points to book 2 x rewards flights. The guy said this would have to be reviewed on a case by case basis.

I am also concerned about landing the people in trouble I bought from.

Has anyone else been in this situation? What did you do and how did it play out?

Any advice much appreciated? Thanks

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Comments

  • captobvious on 02/03/2016 - 14:17

    "3 from people who I bought online from"

    You've been had. Just cop it and move on. QF will forfeit the points that were from "other" people and you will get your account back.

  • [Deactivated] on 02/03/2016 - 14:25
    +1

    Well, the writing's on the wall here. Qantas will debit the non-family points and may suspend your account, given that you've participated in flouting their Terms and Conditions.

    • Choc0 on 02/03/2016 - 17:11
      -1

      From my understanding, they tell you you've been a very bad boy/girl, and tell you never to do it again. They aren't in the habit of losing people's business.

      • MelbBargainChaser77 on 02/03/2016 - 20:33

        How do you know that this is all they will do
        ?
        Ive been a seller and im frozen out!!! Awaiting comms with them tommoro

  • illumination on 02/03/2016 - 14:40
    +1

    Whoa… haven't been in this situation I'm afraid so I can't share my experiences, but, wow. I feel for you. I will be following this closely because I'm curious as to how this pans out.

  • nicwinner on 02/03/2016 - 15:08
    +2

    keep moving & carry on..

    next time you shall let them buy ticket for you on behalf instead of buy points direct off them.

    btw, how much you paid for the points?

  • SimbaGirl on 02/03/2016 - 15:23
    +1

    It will be interesting to see how the situation pans out for the OP, as it appears from the Ts & Cs that Qantas could go as far as cancelling not only the remaining points (if not the account itself) but also the Rewards flights the OP has already redeemed points for:

    8.1 If a Member has committed a material breach of any of the Terms and Conditions or has failed to pay any money due under Qantas Frequent Flyer, or Qantas Club or Aquire by the due date, whether intentionally or otherwise, then Qantas Loyalty may do any one or more of the following:
    (a) suspend or terminate the Member's Membership and/or the right of the Member to use the Card;
    (b) reverse or cancel the Member's Qantas Points or any part thereof; or
    (c) cancel or refuse to honour any Rewards (including ticketed Reward Flights), Awards, Benefits or both, that have been redeemed by or provided to the Member.

    8.2 If Qantas Loyalty intends to take action under clause 8.1, it will notify the Member of its intention and the reason for that action. The Member will then have 21 days to respond to this notice by rectifying the breach (where possible) and providing any reason why Qantas should not take action (provided that Qantas Loyalty may suspend the Member's account until any review is completed). Qantas Loyalty will review the response and advise the Member of its position.

  • ronnknee on 02/03/2016 - 15:26

    Bad luck OP. We've always known that this is a breach of their terms and conditions. You took the risk and unfortunately you got hit. Move on.

  • Peck on 02/03/2016 - 16:16
    +1

    Wow ! Tangible proof that it is not without risk. I have no positive advice, but a big thanks for sharing. The sellers will probably be under investigation too.

  • Bargain Master on 02/03/2016 - 16:26
    +8

    Qantas must be cracking down pretty hard on their audits as I recently sold 110,000 points on ozbargain and was contacted by the buyer yesterday advising that Qantas suspended his account due to multiple family transfers (first mistake there). It's only after I was contacted I attempted to log in my QFF only to find out my account has been cancelled.

    Unfortunately this is the risk that both the seller and buyer accept with transferring points to non family members. It is unfortunate but it is what it is.

    • Alphaduck99 on 02/03/2016 - 22:29
      +1

      Sorry to hear that Mattg :-(

  • bluedufflecoat on 02/03/2016 - 16:26
    +3

    I've just been hit too. I called them up- haven't received an email though… so I'm stuck. I sold, not bought.

    • MelbBargainChaser77 on 02/03/2016 - 18:06

      Same with me. Ive sold 4 times. big chunks also. and my account is now suspended. They will be calling me tomoz. I have over 400k in my account atm. bit nervy about this.

  • Choc0 on 02/03/2016 - 17:09
    +2

    yeah, you just have to take a punt. I've sold before, small amounts. If you get too greedy, you'll get done.

    You can always create a fake account with a surname that matches the seller/buyer if you really want another layer of staying under the radar.

  • mskeggs on 02/03/2016 - 17:45
    +7

    Tell them you belong to a polygamous religious sect and you will sue them for religious discrimination if they won't recognise your relationship?

    • Peck on 02/03/2016 - 17:50
      +2

      In this day and age of fuzzily-described relationships, couldn't they be your 'partner'. In which case it might not be acceptable for transfer, but nor should it be a hanging offence.

  • Randxyz123 on 02/03/2016 - 17:59
    +1

    What do you expect? You aren't allowed to buy other members' points so you have breached the terms and conditions. Even transfers from your GF is pushing it.

    Yeah the people who sold their points are also probably in trouble.

    Hopefully your reward bookings aren't all cancelled…

  • Ash-Say on 02/03/2016 - 21:18

    I know it's against terms and conditions but what is the real harm for Qantas if we sell points and then buyer uses them on a flight?

    • Alphaduck99 on 02/03/2016 - 22:21
      +1

      For us nothing - for Qantas heaps! They rely on >50% of points not being converted to premium flights (don't ask me how I know). They're happy with <20% going to the qantas store or similar and 50% wasted or spent on economy flights (same thing usually with surcharges etc)

      If ozbargainers started pooling then the number of premium flights would rocket - which thinking about it must have actually started trending up for them to have clamped down.

      A revenue fare to the UK in business retails for 6-8K (ditto US) - you can buy the points required for that flight on ozbargain for $1250 (plus taxes).

      I think Virgin are not going to be far behind……

  • CheapskateQueen on 02/03/2016 - 22:02
    +2

    Wow! !did all the ppl that got busted engage in multiple buys/sells in a short period?

    What was your transfer frequency like? Surely they wouldn't come after you if it was just once?

    How do you prove family relationship with a partner or cousin? I haven't transferred anything but even if i wanted to prove my relationship with my cousins husband would be super difficult. We're talking about ancient citizenship certificates, and marriage certificates which is a lil excessive/cray for ff points

  • drewbles on 02/03/2016 - 23:24

    So you violate the terms and conditions and expect Qantas to ignore it? No real sympathy here. Qantas states it's not permitted. Only transfers between eligible family members, and not for cash, are permitted.

    Virgin has the same terms and conditions.

    • illumination on 03/03/2016 - 01:11
      +19

      To be fair he doesn't seem to be coming across as complaining or trying to get sympathy to me..

      He's simply asked if it's happened to anyone else and what ended up happening. I think he's actually taking it quite well. Your response seems more like, "HA! You violated T&Cs! Suck it!" - it's not that I disagree with what you've said. Just that I don't feel like you've really added anything and I feel you have kind of misinterpreted OP.

  • peter000 on 03/03/2016 - 09:41

    You admit to blatant breach of the QFF membership conditions and the very number of transfers in a short period would have triggered alarms. Don't be tempted to try to provide fake "proof" of family relationships, you could be heading into really serious strife if you do. Better to 'fess up and hope for leniency, it's really your only viable option.

  • [Deactivated] on 03/03/2016 - 10:23

    Virgin is clamping down too.
    Don't forget that if you obtain a 'benefit', being money or discount for flights etc, by making a false statement, ("these points come from family members"), it can be classed as criminal fraud.
    Anyone who participates in that fraud is liable as an aider and abettor. That includes people who sell points knowing or believing that they may be used in this way.
    You might want to think twice about posting on an open forum that you have being doing this!

    • Samsungnote10 on 03/03/2016 - 11:22

      Can you seriously be charged for a crime for selling/transferring points?

      Common sense aside, did i really break the law when i transferred points to my gf of 5 years who technically wasnt married?

      • ols108 on 03/03/2016 - 11:29

        I know someone who was arrested for returning legitimately purchased goods to another shop..
        bought from Kmart returned to Target from memory.
        went to court, no conviction recorded $500 fine.

        • tomclancy on 03/03/2016 - 11:51
          +2

          There's more to that story than you are letting on. No way that would involve police unless something more sinister was going on.

        • JIMB0 on 04/03/2016 - 00:22
          +1

          @PBG: Let me guess, buy it at Kmart for a cheaper price (possibly with a discounted giftcard), "return" to Target who sells item at higher price and recieve cash under their goodwill policy?

        • tomclancy on 04/03/2016 - 07:49
          +5

          @JIMB0: yeah, still wouldn't get police involved. Missing the part where the guy gets angry, threatens violence starts throwing chairs etc

      • [Deactivated] on 04/03/2016 - 09:29
        +1

        If you lived together for 5 years she would be classed as a de-facto wife, so assuming that Qantas agrees that would be fine.

    • chumlee on 18/04/2016 - 07:38
      +1

      Criminal fraud?? Lol

      I think we need a royal commission into this. Might even need to build a new jail.

      • Grayfox on 18/02/2017 - 22:44
        -1

        How about Werribee?

  • Samsungnote10 on 03/03/2016 - 11:17

    Just curious. Would it be the frequent transfers or the lack of apparent family connections.

    Years ago i either transferred or bought a ticket eith my points for my gf of 5 years. But she obvioudly had a different surname

    And I was really worried in case they cancelled the ticket last minute

  • chir0nex on 03/03/2016 - 13:10
    +1

    Damn, that sucks. I went through this before and its possible you could've been scammed with stolen points/accounts.

    I bought some points on here before from a specific seller (so did at least 2 other people).
    Qantas contacted me to tell my account was being audited because of 'irregular' transfers and i had to prove my family relationship.

    What happened was that the seller had stolen accounts and sold the points from them, which were only discovered by Qantas when the original account holders found out they were missing points.

    At least, that's the best scenario we can think of because our case involved police etc (though the police didn't contact us directly).

    • tomclancy on 03/03/2016 - 13:56

      Is the OzBargain user that you bought from still around? Or was it a new OzB user setup just for the fraudulent sale?

  • Choc0 on 03/03/2016 - 16:21
    +1

    Qantas' analytics around this has been shit for years. If they've been suspending accounts, it's probably only a recent thing.
    It started off when they cracked down on eBay selling points. Then it was gumtree, but gumtree started deleting the listings as well.

    Ozbargain is pretty much the last place that allows buying and selling points. It's a shame, because eBay users would pay around 2c per point. Nobody on Ozbargain will budge above 1c per point.

  • Neoika on 03/03/2016 - 22:25
    -1

    Lucky I did not sell points to OP though I contacted him.OP got 5 transferred in and flagged in the system.So I suggest only 3 transfers in or out per year to stay below the limits so as not to stand out.BTW,how does Qantas calculate "per year",anniversary year as Virgin's Velocity?

    • Gerbud on 03/03/2016 - 22:33
      +4

      Not really good advice here about keeping it to 3 transfers per year.

      If another QFF Member has been flagged for investigation and you have bought/received points from them - chances are you will be investigated too!

      It will all show on their system.

    • bluedufflecoat on 04/03/2016 - 07:37

      I've only done one transfer in the last two years, your logic is flawed.

      • Neoika on 04/03/2016 - 08:51

        Last year I did one transfer of 100k to someone's zero balance account for cash.Nothing has happened yet.

        • Love a bargain on 04/03/2016 - 10:18
          +1

          Hopefully the buyer hasn't also bought from someone else who has been caught.

          From 1 single report, Qantas would probably flag everyone who had transferred to/from those 2 people & then all those who have transferred to/from those who are now caught. So on & so forth.

        • Neoika on 04/03/2016 - 13:17

          @Love a bargain: So for buyer,best buy points from one person,not accumulate from multiple persons.Gerbud did shop around to get his points!

        • Love a bargain on 04/03/2016 - 14:48
          +2

          @Neoika: & preferably from someone who hasn't done/aren't looking for multiple trades (eg. say you're only buying half of what they had to sell). But that would make finding a "safe" seller almost impossible.

  • Gerbud on 03/03/2016 - 22:31
    +12

    UPDATE:

    I e-mailed Qantas and fessed up to my breach. No way in hell I was going to try and prove family connections etc.

    Qantas called me today and here's what is happening:

    • They are not terminating my account.
    • They will be cancelling the points I bought.
    • A reward flight I booked has been cancelled to make up for my negative balance as a result of points cancellation.

    They advised that they deal with these circumstances on a case by case basis. Also mentioned that there were people hacking into accounts and selling points online too hence the investigations and crack downs.

    Lesson learned!

    • Neoika on 03/03/2016 - 22:38
      -1

      At least we know it is due to hackers,not transfers between legit members in your case.

      • [Deactivated] on 04/03/2016 - 02:04
        +1

        it has nothing to do with hackers.

        you can fire up TOR and buy flights redeemed with peoples accounts all over the place, or even just buy companies username/passwords. that's been going on since reward scehemes were started many moons ago.

    • Bargain Master on 04/03/2016 - 07:48

      Any idea what it going to happen to the seller Gerbud? I am assuming the points you bought won't be returned to the seller and Qantas have now absorbed them?

      • bluedufflecoat on 04/03/2016 - 08:22

        how do you know your account is cancelled?

        Did you try to login to your account? Did you contact Qantas?

        • Bargain Master on 04/03/2016 - 08:38

          Because i cannot log into my account or reset my password

        • bluedufflecoat on 04/03/2016 - 08:41

          @Mattg: it's suspended. Not cancelled… yet. :/

        • Bargain Master on 04/03/2016 - 08:44

          @bluedufflecoat:

          The thing is i haven't been contacted by Qantas at all about my account. I only found out about all this because the buyer contacted me. He messaged me last night and said he confessed to Qantas and they have reinstated both our accounts and Qantas will return the points to me (which i highly doubt). I only had a 1000 points left in my account after i sold them so i am not too concerned about my account or points as i have switched to Velocity now.

        • bluedufflecoat on 04/03/2016 - 08:46

          @Mattg: I contacted them.

          They could eventually contact you… or you can contact them. In your situation, either doesn't matter too much.

      • bbqwer on 04/03/2016 - 08:35

        Seller account is suspended. Unless can provide proof of relationship with buyers. Otherwise account and all points busted.

        • tukulzz on 11/03/2016 - 12:36

          Can someone confirm if this is what happen to the seller?

  • lilkid28 on 11/03/2016 - 13:18

    Any other buyers here who have been suspended? What did you do and what was the outcome?

  • bbqwer on 17/03/2016 - 16:47
    +1

    just received email from Qantas:

    I'm writing to you regarding the recent audit of your Qantas Frequent Flyer Membership.

    We've completed our investigation and with the information provided to us. It has been identified that the transaction on 11 February 2016 to be in breach of section 7.1 of the Terms and Conditions. Due to this breach we will be removing these Qantas Points from your Qantas account. We will be removing 40,000 Qantas Points.

    As a goodwill gesture, you'll retain your Qantas Frequent Flyer Membership as well as any benefits associated with your membership.

    We will be monitoring the transactions on your membership, if any breaches in the future are identified we will take action as outlined in the Terms and Conditions section 8.1.

    We've since removed the suspension on your membership, and you'll be able to continue to earn and redeem points as well as access and view your account online.

    17 MAR 16 PTS ADJ DUE TO IRREGULAR ACTIVITY S 17MAR16 - -40,000

  • The Champagne Mile on 19/03/2016 - 15:51
    +1

    I've always wondered about the risk associated with these points sell offs… Actually surprised the mods allow(ed?) these sales to be posted, given it's not in line with QFF terms and conditions.

    Glad I never proceeded with one - my points are far too precious to me to put in jeopardy! However, my commiserations to all those who got stung :(

    • lilkid28 on 19/03/2016 - 16:03
      +1

      Yeah, I've lost more than 100k points but have learned my lesson, no more buying/selling points. At least I still have my 2x Emirates F tickets for my upcoming honeymoon, else I'll be sitting back in Y.

      • The Champagne Mile on 19/03/2016 - 16:05

        So what has happened to sellers? If the points are confiscated from the buyer, one presumes the seller still pockets the $$ (presumably with account cancellation / suspension from QF)?

        • bbqwer on 19/03/2016 - 16:12

          Seller still pocket the money, and points also confiscated.

          If the points return to seller, and it is up to seller to refund those payments back to buyer. If it was me, i am happily refund buyers.

        • lilkid28 on 19/03/2016 - 16:15

          I think for sellers who were suspended during investigation, may be given a chance or banned depending on their response. Seller still pockets the money I guess… doubt Qantas is going to return to the points to the seller anyway.

        • The Champagne Mile on 19/03/2016 - 16:17
          -6

          @lilkid28: IMO, the seller should refund the buyer, either way. If it was me, I'd firmly but politely ask for a refund.

        • The Champagne Mile on 20/03/2016 - 12:50
          -4

          Well, my comment certainly got a few negs - but I stand by it. People who bought points and had them confiscated essentially bough a dodgy product. Say you bought a DJs voucher from a seller, you went to use it and DJs then turned around and stated that it was invalid for some reason (meaning you couldn't use it and were out of pocket the $$ you paid for it) - wouldn't you expect a refund?

          Interestingly, points sellers (and looking back, there have been many advertising on OzB over the past few months) have been largely silent on this thread as to their take on the situation. Any sellers care to share with us what happened to them if they were flagged for auditing, and if they chose to provide a refund?

        • bbqwer on 20/03/2016 - 13:37
          +3

          @adelee: Mate. Buying selling points is against term and conditions. Both party knew the risk. When its get caught, than suck it up. Your argument with DJ voucher is irrelevant. Full stop.

  • Save Medicare on 22/03/2016 - 16:02

    What happens to people who had booked a points+pay flight?

  • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2016 - 16:11

    I posted an ad to sell Velocity points recently, but pulled out at the past minute as another poster said her account has been suspended, and 600k points subsequently forfeited, with a lifetime ban from the program!
    I guess Velocity are tighter than Qantas, and removing a liability of $6k+ from their balance sheet was a win for Virgin.

    • theoracle30 on 31/03/2016 - 10:32

      That happened to me too, but with 200,000 pts. Very painful loss.

      Since then I've had other people use their points to book my flights and that's had absolutely no issues :)

      But of course, everything in moderation. Someone booking flights for 10 different people over a few days is sure to draw suspicion.

      • illumination on 17/04/2016 - 15:23

        You're actually allowed to book flights in other people's names with Velocity though.

        Not with Qantas though, I believe. Which is a shame.

        • Love a bargain on 18/04/2016 - 12:32

          Pretty sure Qantas allows members to redeem flights for others too.

        • illumination on 18/04/2016 - 12:44

          @Love a bargain: nah they don't. I used to think that too but you do have to specify a relationship when you book.

          I'd imagine it's less risky than selling points though.

        • Love a bargain on 18/04/2016 - 16:03

          @illumination: Didn't know that. Have never done that myself.

  • anna10 on 17/04/2016 - 18:32

    You can use your points to book someone a flight afaik. I've done it once for someone I wanted but give a present.

    • illumination on 17/04/2016 - 21:57

      Are you talking about Qantas or Virgin?

      • anna10 on 18/04/2016 - 07:32

        QF

        • illumination on 18/04/2016 - 08:37

          You've still got to select a relationship type, just like when transferring points though. This doesn't happen with Virgin.

  • The Champagne Mile on 17/04/2016 - 19:20
    +3

    So there is actually someone trying to sell QF points (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/243661) I linked to this post quite awhile ago, but the OP has since logged on to change their username and edit the post - points still for sale, though. Either they are unaware of the situation, or figure that if QF cancels the sale, they'll come out ok (less points, but still with cash from the buyer).

    EDIT: Now marked as sold.

  • drjoe27 on 21/10/2016 - 18:03
    Merged from Shall I Buy QFF Points from Someone on Gumtree - What Can Go Wrong?

    Hi,
    What experience have Oz bargainers had with buying QFF points from non family and then using them for a flight booking.
    Please tell me the good and bad experiences to help me decide if I should do this.

    • idjces on 21/10/2016 - 18:14
      +1

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/237052

      Turns out that's a very real outcome

      • drjoe27 on 21/10/2016 - 18:26
        +1

        Thanks for history that's enough to put me off

        • idjces on 21/10/2016 - 18:28

          Yea, unfortunately the only one who is really risking losing out is you, the buyer

    • CyberMurning on 21/10/2016 - 18:31

      Yeah unfair they should ban seller from flying Qantas again. Ever!

    • lilkid28 on 22/10/2016 - 11:15

      My account got suspended when i had two pending Emirates F tickets two months later. I negotiated with them and they agreed to let me go this one time and deducted the amount of points I had bought. Will never but qff points again considering how easy it is with signup bonuses.

  • [Deactivated] on 22/10/2016 - 17:56

    and this is why I've never got points from 'strangers'

    • Peck on 22/10/2016 - 20:00
      +1

      Not that endorse abusing the QFF family transfer system, but if one is going to take the chance, then OzBargainers who have a good OZB history are less risky.

  • wu-dragon on 24/10/2016 - 09:59

    My account was suspended as well. As it was my first 'offence' the transferred points were removed from my account.

  • hamwhisperer on 12/09/2022 - 18:25

    Sorry to bump an old thread.

    Saw a guy manage to sell 80,000 points here a few weeks ago, is this still a thing? Suspending accounts and cancelling points? Super worrying.

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