My Very First Traffic Offence - Red Light (VIC)

Lthemightyboost on 28/11/2015 - 06:22
Last edited 28/11/2015 - 09:02 by 1 other user

Long time lurker, first time poster -

I ran a red light, not but much, but I definitely did. I am certain the flash went off, felt like a critical hit to the bank account.
It was around 5am this morning and no-one was around so I foolishly pushed my luck on a yellow light.

Anyhow, this is my first offence I've ever had on my licence (including parking fines) which I've held for over 8 years.

Is there any chance I can write to them to try and get off/reduce the fine? What would I say?

I remember there was a sort of 'template letter' that a few of my mates sent in to VicRoads/the cops the first time they received a speeding fine to get off with just a warning.Is a red light offence worse than speeding?
Would you let me off the hook?

Thanks for your time

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Comments

  • eatwell365 on 28/11/2015 - 08:03
    +2

    This is for NSW but think this will help.
    http://www.sdro.nsw.gov.au/lib/docs/forms/sdr_pn_015.pdf

  • eatwell365 on 28/11/2015 - 08:04
    +2

    Also must read. SDRO review guidelines http://www.sdro.nsw.gov.au/lib/docs/misc/br_001.pdf

  • simhanada on 28/11/2015 - 08:07
    +18

    You can always try and write a letter. No harm trying… but.. I doubt it will get you anywhere. With speeding fines there is a certain leniency and a gradation of seriousness, i.e. 1-10km is considered different to 10km over the limit. And depending on the state you can argue yourself a case for being let off via mitigating circumstances. Part of that argument is that you admit to the offence.

    With red lights there is no gradation. It either is or isn't red. Therefore there really is no argument to be made for it only just turning red. You even get a warning with the orange light. I expect you'll get short shrift, but you can try.

    Would I let you off? Probably not. I'm not a big fan of the high fines but I think there should be some penalty for red light running. I believe in a good arse kicking but not then mugging you for all you're worth.

  • spal on 28/11/2015 - 08:12
    +15

    The red light offenses are not covered on withdrawal of penalty notice and issue of warning, unless you can prove exceptional circumstances, mental health, medical emergency. Needed to go to toilet doesn't count.
    Having said that, if you enter the intersection after the lights turning red that is when you would receive a notice. Do you remember seeing two flashes then maybe you will cop the fine. Sometimes people get lucky because for whatever reason they do not receive a notice, which could be that they entered in Amber but exited in red. Lookup police.vic.gov.au for traffic infringements.

    • poboy on 28/11/2015 - 09:41
      +1

      Agree. There is a chance that you may not get a notice. If you don't get a notice within 4 weeks you will be ok.

  • simhanada on 28/11/2015 - 08:14

    In the NSW document it seems they will consider Red light infringements, provided you have a 10 year clean driving record.

  • eatwell365 on 28/11/2015 - 08:14
    +5

    Everyone drive excited when first got on the wheel. Still remember the day I got my P. Then lessons from the years -
    Accident does happen.
    Life is short.
    Life is fragile.
    Without a car, without the legs in Australia,
    Forgive people mistakes.

    We are only human, so once in a while, there can still be mistake, so no need to beat yourself too hard but hard.

    • WhyAmICommenting on 29/11/2015 - 22:41
      +8

      so no need to beat yourself too hard but hard.

      Do you have an Asian father perhaps?

      • eatwell365 on 30/11/2015 - 06:58
        +2

        I grew up with a feather duster.

        • inasero on 01/12/2015 - 09:20

          oh the dreaded feather duster!
          i remember the belt
          and the plastic fly-swatter

    • Miami Mall Alien on 29/11/2015 - 23:40
      +18

      Accident does happen.
      Life is short.
      Life is fragile.
      Without a car, without the legs in Australia,
      Forgive people mistakes.

      Cool Haiku bro. Such deep. Much meaningful.

    • Utopian on 01/12/2015 - 10:31
      +1

      "No need to beat yourself too hard"

      Life-lesson, right there.

    • The General on 01/12/2015 - 20:56

      Those lessons… Confucious was teaching those, wasn't he?

      • eatwell365 on 01/12/2015 - 21:44

        Confusious says Man who mix viagra and laxative, don't know when coming or going.

        Man who goes to bed with itchy butt, wakes up with stinky fingers

        Found more funny Confusious saying here and there

  • chumlee on 28/11/2015 - 08:16
    +4

    I miss those old days when they used film for red light cameras and there was no film left so you never got a fine

    • toristo on 28/11/2015 - 09:29
      +3

      I heard stories about some guys who'd regularly go out with a cordless drill and a bit of rope with a small weight attached to the end and they'd start it up, get it to speed in front of the speed sensor and let it snap photos of nothing to run the film out. No idea how many shots one of them had in it.

      • kryptoz on 28/11/2015 - 21:50

        I'm sure a can of Dulux Duramax enamel spray would work as well for any contemporary camera. Or the sensor radar box could be jammed.

        • UFO on 01/12/2015 - 22:39
          +1

          Might want to look up the offence for tampering with the equipment like that…. its not cheap!

  • eatwell365 on 28/11/2015 - 08:18

    OP, no need to stress till a fine is received,
    Occasionally, the flash of cameras does seem to play up. Ie when no car, it flashes itself. when green light, it flashes itself.
    Despite saying that, a lesson to remember.

  • LaProblematique on 28/11/2015 - 08:21
    +4

    Why don't you sack up and pay the price for your action?

    The entitlement of people these days…

    • themightyboost on 28/11/2015 - 09:16
      +8

      Paying for things just doesn't seem like the ozbargain way

    • [Deactivated] on 29/11/2015 - 02:31
      +14

      While I would normally agree with your sentiments… if we are to believe the OP's facts:

      1. hasn't committed any traffic offences in 8 years
      2. this offence was committed at around 5 AM when no traffic was around

      So knowing that, I'm more inclined to think this rather unconventional way: should we really let technology dictate what we do or control us as if it always knows what is best, when there are in fact circumstances when it doesn't or can't know what is best? Take for instance times when you are driving at 2 or 3 AM and you are the only car in sight, yet there you are stopped at a red light for several minutes, waiting for absolutely nothing. Much like the OP would have been, by the sounds of it.

      Now I don't condone law breaking as a habit or even as a once off. I don't advice or condone any running of red traffic lights- but I don't judge or criticise what the OP has seemingly done here either. It might have been risky, but the risks would have been minute. Like so minute.. as in someone else launching their car as soon as their light turned green (from some invisible spot the OP couldn't even see). But how absurd would that be?

      So yeah, if the OP did actually run a red (since we/they aren't even sure yet) - that's not cool in regards to the law.. but really I would be on the side of giving the whole appeal thing a shot. Even if the chances of the fine being dropped are as slim as the chance of that magical car appearing out of nowhere at 5 AM when the OP ran the red/amber with no cars in sight at the time.

      If that even makes sense. :S

      • themightyboost on 29/11/2015 - 14:14

        Yeah rationally I understand what I did was wrong, and definitely won't be doing it again.
        I think it would have been more dangerous for me to brake quickly than to just keep on going through at 60km/h. The yellow light felt very quick as the road is usually quite busy and congested during day hours/ (alexancra parade melbourne if anyone knows the road)

        • eatwell365 on 01/12/2015 - 02:23
          +1

          What you said is actually the closest defence on running an amber light. You believe an accident could have occurred if you stopped suddenly.

        • ashanrath on 01/12/2015 - 13:54
          +2

          @eatwell365: Yeah, tried that myself with a ten year clean record. Semi behind me that didn't have the faintest hope of stopping on the wet road doing the limit in an 80km/h zone. Wrote a letter explaining and still had to pay. With red lights it's black and white in Vic.

      • Baysew on 01/12/2015 - 18:29

        but really I would be on the side of giving the whole appeal thing a shot.

        Are you saying to have the matter taken to court and appeal to the magistrate ?

        As stated https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/222351#comment-3240918

        Serious road safety related offences are ineligible for official warnings

        An official warning will generally not be given for a red light, mobile phone, seatbelt or any serious road safety offence; this is due to the serious nature of the risk that these types of offences pose to all road users.

        However consideration may be given where a proven emergency situation can be shown

  • airzone on 28/11/2015 - 08:31
    +6

    It always starts with a first time.. First murder, first pirate download, first post… Expect the police to take you away for a long, long time..

  • themightyboost on 28/11/2015 - 09:14

    Thanks for the replys guys, I will await a notice before doing anything further.
    I was under the impression red lights were worse than speeding, although I also thought I heard something about "seconds after red" kinda thing

    • Baysew on 28/11/2015 - 10:26
      +2

      Some Red Light cameras also detect speeding offences.
      You might pick up the "Daily Double"

      • themightyboost on 28/11/2015 - 11:32
        +2

        Just the single for me thanks. I don't even think my car is capable of speeding.

  • oscargamer on 28/11/2015 - 09:29
    +9

    You are wasting a stamp by writing a letter. A warning will not be given for a red light .

    If the ticket comes, you have two choices. Pay it or take it to court. No third option exists.

    • Olokun on 28/11/2015 - 10:21
      +5

      No third option exists

      • ignore it and hope it goes away
      • flee the state/country and never return
      • nominate another driver (perhaps his 100 year old nan who doesn't drive anymore and has no demerit points)
    • fersea on 29/11/2015 - 11:42

      I am not sure I agree it is a waste of time. I got a parking fine (my first one in about 12 years) and I tried to get off due to a good record. Unfortunately it didn't work because it was a no standing area, but what happens is they ordinarily give you about 4 weeks to pay, you write a letter to the end of that time, they acknowledge it saying it is up for review so don't pay, they take six weeks to review, then tell you they are not going to get off and they 4 weeks to pay starts again from there. So you can get a bit more time just by sending an email.

      • UFO on 01/12/2015 - 22:42

        Yeah but the OP ran a red, not a parking offence. Big difference.

        • hayne on 04/12/2015 - 17:55

          Isn't the point that fersea is making about delaying having to pay (cashflow benefit)? They weren't given any leniency. So whether it's a red light or parking offence, there is no difference in terms of being able to write a letter and then delaying payment without them levying penalties on top of the fine.

          They will hear you and reject you but you can push back the payment date.

  • Olokun on 28/11/2015 - 10:17
    +10

    Writing a letter for review is a waste of a stamp.

    Offical Warnings

    Serious road safety related offences are ineligible for official warnings

    An official warning will generally not be given for a red light, mobile phone, seatbelt or any serious road safety offence; this is due to the serious nature of the risk that these types of offences pose to all road users.

    However consideration may be given where a proven emergency situation can be shown

    Special circumstances reviews

    • QW3RTY on 30/11/2015 - 10:58
      +1

      Yeah, but I didn't mean to do it! I mean sure, I know that running red lights is illegal — but I'm a good driver and special circumstances should apply to me! If I write persuasively enough, I can surely convince the relevant parties that this was just a silly mistake and we should all just laugh it off and tear up the fine! Is that really too much to ask?

      This is your brain on drugs… I mean, this is your brain on a lack of owning responsibility.

      • moonphase on 30/11/2015 - 17:42

        So what is your "special" circumstances?

        • QW3RTY on 30/11/2015 - 18:26

          My "special" circumstances don't matter. "Special circumstances" defined by legislation however do matter,

        • moonphase on 01/12/2015 - 15:28

          @QW3RTY: True. I skipped the last line of what you wrote. If your special circumstances does not match to what described in the legislation then you know you are just whining to avoid the fine.

  • chumlee on 28/11/2015 - 11:02
    +3

    Just do a Marcus Einfeld.
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/former-judge-einfeld-gets-at-…

    • themightyboost on 28/11/2015 - 11:33

      I'll get working on my law degree now =)

      • eatwell365 on 28/11/2015 - 17:25

        What for? Only to get heavier penalty for knowing the law yet breaking the law. : )

  • kryptoz on 28/11/2015 - 21:52
    -1

    If you have any friends visiting from overseas, they might have been driving and would still have to pay the fine, but won't get any demerit points.

  • ATangk on 29/11/2015 - 00:16

    I read the title and it reminded me of Nick Cage in National Treasure.
    Dont suppose you were driving a large truck/bus and can use an 'unsafe to stop' reason. Personally, I think you may cause yourself unnecessary stress for now. Prepare to cut the fine out of your budget and leave it aside until the letter comes in the mail.

  • Charity on 29/11/2015 - 04:39
    +1

    No victim = No crime. ☺

    I would let you off at least. Everyone makes mistakes.

    • themightyboost on 29/11/2015 - 14:16

      What kinda irritates me is that I've been crashed into twice from a stationary position and yet those people weren't fined. One of those times my car was destroyed and I was a grand outta pocket.

      But as you say, everyone makes mistakes =)

      • Charity on 29/11/2015 - 23:04
        -1

        you were a victim

  • ahly92 on 29/11/2015 - 09:08

    These red light cameras do more harm then good in my opinion. Every time In approach a red light cameras intend to become panicky anticipating when it might turn red.

    The best way this system will work if they introduce countdown timer in the intersection. That way, if a driver is say 100 metera away and sees theres only couple of seconds til it turns yellow then he'll safly stop and vice versa….but it will never happen and we all know why :(

    • CLoSeR on 29/11/2015 - 09:53

      Plenty of places where no red light camera exists and drivers still run red lights, I witnessed a mother and son almost taken out by a careless driver just a few weeks ago.

    • brokenglish on 29/11/2015 - 10:30
      +1

      LOL, from where I come from, we have these
      Everyone becomes an F1 driver before the traffic light
      (3 second…2 second…1 second VROOOOOM OH YEAH)
      Good idea but not so good…

    • outlander on 29/11/2015 - 22:53

      Well, actually it did. They used to have mechanical circular traffic lights along nepean highway in victoria,
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshalite

    • lostn on 29/11/2015 - 23:05

      Great idea imo, but it will be expensive to implement, and it will reduce revenue, so yeah, no chance really.

    • James1976 on 30/11/2015 - 16:35
      +1

      Not at all relevant to OP, however I was on a bus once and the arrow was green as the bus approached. The driver started to crawl anticipating it going to red. He keeps slowing down and the light stays green. Eventually he comes to a complete stop while the arrow is still green. It went red a few secs later. I gave him a serve as I was running late but obviously he was on his last warning and wasn't taking any chances.

      But yeah, I can think of a way for OP to at least salvage 70 cents off his fine, if it comes. No wiggle room on the warning process for red light camera.

  • cowiie on 29/11/2015 - 09:11

    this is my first offence I've ever had on my licence (including parking fines) which I've held for over 8 years.

    This only means you haven't been caught the other times.

    • themightyboost on 29/11/2015 - 14:18
      +3

      Fair call^

      I never intentionally do the wrong thing whilst driving but I'm sure I've accidentally gone over the speed limit at one point or another (who hasn't?)

      • cowiie on 29/11/2015 - 22:14
        +4

        Yeah I know. It hurts when you get a fine for accidentally speeding and it makes you angry when people race on the roads with no consequences

  • gimli on 29/11/2015 - 09:58

    Have you actually got a letter from a Vic Roads. Even though the cameras go of you are not always going to get fined. There is a camera to take photoes at the start and end of intersection only if you get snapped twice you get fined.

    E.g. I've just gone through a yellow before and the car before me was going slow so, was slow through the intersection and got flashed by camera but not suprisingly didn't get a fine.

    p.s. good luck.

  • smpantsonfire on 29/11/2015 - 11:42

    I think if it only flashed once then you are good, because they take 2 shots for Red Light cameras. One to show you behind the line, and one when you are past.

  • kryptoz on 29/11/2015 - 19:56
    +2

    The title 'My Very First…" sounds like a children's book

    • gimli on 29/11/2015 - 21:55

      haha vic roads should publish it.

    • Utopian on 01/12/2015 - 10:48

      …or porn site.

  • bargainslut on 29/11/2015 - 22:48

    Great post OP.

    I'm sure we've all been in that conundrum of 'should we, shouldn't we' when approaching an orange light.
    I tend to squeeze the accelerator aggressively when it changes from green to orange/red. This annoys some other road users but a gentle wave and a smile as I whiz by usually appeases the situation.

    • themightyboost on 29/11/2015 - 22:53
      +1

      How I wish we all could 'smile and wave' away a ticket, just imagine how happy this world would be :)

      P.s. I'm a firm believer in the "Melbourne wave", (like when you wave at someone for letting you through a right hand turn etc) it needs to be taught at driving school!

      • eatwell365 on 30/11/2015 - 06:53

        The part of Sydney local I am in, people wave all the time as well when people let you through, you can almost tell which car is local and who is not by the way they drive and manner. As soon as you drive further out from the area, less and less you see the wave, and wave soon replace with finger and then punch.

        • cashless on 01/12/2015 - 14:10

          At least we haven't taken it as far as the US yet, where you get fist, punch…..gun

  • lostn on 29/11/2015 - 23:03
    -2

    You don't have good chances with red light forgiveness. I know of people who've successfully had their first speeding offence withdrawn, but don't know of any cases for red lights.

    My first and only red light offense was almost $400. Since then I've been very mindful of places that have red lights and always slow down as I'm approaching when it's green, just in case it goes orange before I cross. I don't take any chances anymore. I saw it as a hard lesson learned. Pay up now, to hopefully never have to pay again.

    What a friend told me that you can do is ask for photographic proof. See if the driver can be identified in the photo. If you can't be identified, tell them you weren't the one driving. Say you were at a party, and you were drunk, and someone else borrowed your car to take for a spin, and you don't know who it was. If they can't identify the driver, supposedly they'll withdraw the fine. That's what he told me worked for one of his friends. Take it with a grain of salt. He told me to try it when I received my fine, but I just paid it. Didn't want to go through the hassle.

    Get a GPS that has traffic light warnings. It is cheaper than paying a fine for being caught unawares.

    • isthisreally_me on 29/11/2015 - 23:20
      +1

      This will not work.
      "
      A nomination will not be accepted if:
      • it contains insufficient information to identify the person responsible "

      • lostn on 29/11/2015 - 23:24
        -1

        As I said, don't know if it will work.

        But in his case, he wasn't nominating anyone. He was just saying it wasn't him. It might just be a case of YMMV depending on who is on the other side, just like when you ask for price matches.

        I don't know. I don't expect a red light fine to get overturned. There's not a lot to lose in trying anything though.

        I'm not advising anyone actually does this. It was just a bit of info someone told me that he may or may not find interesting.

        • themightyboost on 30/11/2015 - 09:28
          +1

          Haha I'm no lawyer, (its funny how many of my sentences start that way) but somehow I don't think this would work

  • FittyFitty on 30/11/2015 - 11:29
    +1

    The sooner you swallow the reality and accept your decision to run the red light, the sooner it will become apparent that rebellion to the contrary is assholeitical.

  • itstuan on 30/11/2015 - 11:34
    +2

    You ran a red light, pay the fine. It's pretty simple. You should be thankful you didn't hit anyone and cause injury.

    • themightyboost on 30/11/2015 - 13:05
      +1

      I got ran over by someone who ran a red light last year, oh the ironing!
      But that was someone who went straight through a red arrow as opposed to just pushing the yellow

      • Brouw3r on 30/11/2015 - 15:31
        +4

        I got ran over by someone who ran a red light last year, oh the ironing

        Were you carrying a bundle of clothes?

  • wheretobuychocettes on 30/11/2015 - 11:55
    +1

    Probably won't work writing a letter - I'm a Victorian, also got my first and only fine for red light camera about 2 years ago. I wrote a letter asking to let it be a warning and no monetary fine (was okay with demerit points as I didn't plan on breaking any laws). The reason I ran the light was the large van/truck in front of me was going much slower than anyone would anticipate mid-turn, I couldn't see any of the traffic lights that applied to me (turning traffic) and assumed that as only 3-4 cars had gone into the intersection that it would still be green. I go through that set of lights every morning and afternoon for work, so fairly familiar. Most times it runs for about 10 cars, sometimes you can approach it from before the turning lane even starts and make it through on green, so must have just been an unreasonably short light and I got done for it.

    As everyone else says, just wait it out and see if you get the infringement first of all, writing a letter will delay your need to pay the fine, but you're extremely unlikely to get out of it unless you have some emergency case that you can plead and prove.

  • ravenit on 30/11/2015 - 12:20
    -1

    No harm in trying, I had one speeding fine after 15 years of Driving it was 34kmh in a 25kmh zone. Trigger happy cop, so wrote a letter explaining history etc. Response was pay up. :(
    Now have the gps running most times with speed zones and drive like a granny. Spend more time watching the speedo rather than the road will probably run someone over one day as not watching the road.

  • Randxyz123 on 30/11/2015 - 16:36
    +3

    Wait wait wait did you get pulled over or just think you saw a flash?

    Relax and wait till the fine comes then work out what to do

  • netsurfer on 30/11/2015 - 17:22

    Unless you or your passenger(s) have a legit emergency reason (and you have proof), VIC police will still ask you to pay. Red light offence is different to minor speeding offense. However, you'll probably get a slight extension on the due date if you wrote a letter to them (because they will take some time to reply to you so they will give you more time to pay the fine).

    Using that was your first offence does have a down side. You are basically admitting you have committed an offence without any real emergency reason (basically you agree that you made a mistake).

  • babezaves on 30/11/2015 - 17:41
    -1

    I found this and used it last year to get off paying a red light traffic fine caught by a camera on the corner of springvale and wellington rd in Victoria. Use it - it worked for me :)
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/70291

    • wheretobuychocettes on 30/11/2015 - 17:47
      +1

      I got my red light fine for this exact intersection, wrote letter, no leniency on red lights. Speeding? Sure.

      • babezaves on 30/11/2015 - 17:50

        yeah that intersection has made a lot of money!!! I hadn't received a speeding fine in the last 5 years so I was very lucky to get off paying the hefty fine!

  • Davo1111 on 30/11/2015 - 19:46
    -1

    i hope you like prison OP

  • rompastompa on 30/11/2015 - 20:08

    I drove through an orange light about 15 years ago. Typical scenario where as many cars try and squeeze through the amber light as possible. In this particular time, I was behind an undercover police car. He pulled me over and the conversation was pretty funny.

    The Police Officer had said how I went through the amber light, possibly a red light. He said it was amber when he went through it, and stated about the fine you'd receive going through an amber light. He didn't fine me, as I suspect he wasn't allowed to go through it either!

  • jelko on 30/11/2015 - 22:33
    +1

    Just pay the fine.

  • SydStrand on 01/12/2015 - 01:50
    +1

    You're welcome to appeal, but it'll just be a waste of time. Each state processes thousands of offences per week, they are not going to make exceptions for you. Every day, there's a new thread on these boards or whirlpool of someone asking how they could weasel out of their fine. If there was actually a way to do this, do you think anyone would still pay them? Just eat the fine, and treat it as a lesson learned; it's why they exist, after all.

  • azshade on 01/12/2015 - 04:53
    +1

    I was guilty of driving in the right lane in an 90 zone. — Failure to keep left.

    I successfully appealed for leniency due to having a clean record. It was actually the cop who pulled me over who told me to do it. He said "the fine is pretty high, about $300. If you've got a clean record, appeal it and you should be fine."

    This is NSW. I had a pretty good reason though, of sorts. At the time, the left lane was often chock a block full of uni students and I was in the right lane going to work. This particular day was uni holidays. So no cars in the left lane. I though just from habbit went into the right lane. Hence why I was guilty as all hell, but I had a decent leniency case when I went to court.

    You can appeal it, then take it to court, which will suck up all day, where you may get off or you might not. And you were guilty, so you need to admit that and think is it worth trying to fight it?

    It might be better in the long run to take the short term financial pain and take the life lesson with it.

  • wkd on 01/12/2015 - 08:46

    my dad got off a red light ticket driving to the hospital when my sister was about to give birth. he wrote a letter

  • Donaldhump on 01/12/2015 - 09:09

    just pay it and move on, you broke the law, simple… shit happens

  • Zondor on 01/12/2015 - 09:19

    I feel for you OP. I 'may' have just got my first one too (SA here).

    Coming up to a set of lights, one car stopped at a green light. he takes off but it seems it was short cycle. I was already slowing down as I approached him and he took off. I should have stopped here however on reflection. but the light was still green when I took my next action.

    When I started proceeding forward it changed to yellow. I haven't driven a manual in a while (my car is in for repairs) and thought I still had enough momentum for 3rd gear. However I had to flick back to second after realising I would have stalled it. During this time however it has JUST gone red and I am just over the white line (Or tire on the tip of the front towards the intersection edge) however I think there are sensors after the light that can trigger the camera. I didn't see a flash but it was quite a bright morning.

    I may have got off but if I didn't not really much I can do. I'll just wait for the mail to come in.

    • RocketSwitch on 01/12/2015 - 10:16

      I believe your car has to be completely over the red line. Or a little more, almost in the middle.

      • Zondor on 01/12/2015 - 12:05

        Not sure about states but we don't have red lines. Also the sensors here are infront and behind the line.

        • RocketSwitch on 01/12/2015 - 14:06

          Sorry, over the white line.

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