I have been part of many sites, but I have found that OzBargain member base to be the most tolerant of each other.
Sure I seen personal attacks and trolling, but its not as nasty as Whirlpool when things go sour.
Thoughts? Reasons as to why?
OzBargainers The Most Friendly Base around?
GameChanger on 22/10/2015 - 21:21
Last edited 22/10/2015 - 21:23
Last edited 22/10/2015 - 21:23
Poll Options
- 177True
- 109False
- 37Undecided
Comments
I asked JV about that! The WP community are adamant that the JV that was banned from WP, is the OzB one.
"Aura: Pervasively Low"
Haha. It is JV!!
The pattern of bolding in his posts seems to match.
https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=…
over 21000 posts lol. Must be JV
http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/afl_footy_trolling_hall_of_fame
@Gimli: Well done finding some of his old posts on WP, JV seems sour still that he got banned from WP, as he denies that's him.
@DeafMutePretender: lolll didn't even notice that. But that's not me :/, I got banned from WP after 50 posts, because I questioned their moderation policy and power of the mods. For AFL I have been using BigFooty, but that's mainly for rumours/scandals.
I swear the moment I flipped his Gravatar, I started to get negative posts from him.
What is another popular Australian forum you frequent, beyond this and whirlpool? Most other forums don't interest me because it's filled with conversation that bores me in real life - typically dominated by people who are obsessed with a single hobby… ummm that isn't saving money. Even whirlpool is a get in get out forum once you've asked the resident nerds your question (and used yet another disposable e-mail account because you forgot your login). Speaking of demographics, how many girls are here these days anyway??
This place is at least a lot friendlier than a lot of hate sites that pop up in Google. Even racists don't give each other a lot of love.
I've always wondered if bitter forum writers are like that in real life. Subtle trolling is only funny when the forum members deserve it e.g. hate or extremist forums. On second thought…they might go a little too nuts in real life so maybe not.
BigFooty for AFL.
lol that's true about Whirlpool, most people ask their question and don't return. I would be very interested in that stat as well! I imagine not many girls on here.
girl here :-) there don't seem to be a lot of us, but that might just be because of an assumption that everyone is a guy until proven otherwise?
It is difficult sometimes to know what someones gender is. I don't think it matters. Unless you have girl in your nic name but boy what a mistake that was!
Generally ozbargain is a great place. People are open yet direct ( without bias). Sure there are a few trolls but they get called for what they are quickly enough. Tightarse with his massive amount of bargains is supported for what he is doing even though he could be perceived to be flooding the site with "deals". Jv doesn't get flamed as much as he/she could as people generally respect his/her views. We are a tolerant bunch and that is why I'm proud to visit the site many times a day to read the forums. Even silly questions regarding licenses/NSW green slips are supported when many people could say just call the f'ing RTA. Just view the support for Jar Jar Binks etc and you'll see what I mean. I'm confident enough to post questions (silly or not) and get a great response from others. **I'm not implying Tightarse or Jv or JJB are silly in anyway.
I hope the site doesn't change.
Plus 1 for the mods too. Without them I'm sure the site would go to crap quick.
Back to my Scotch.
+1 For the awesome MOD's.
Whirlpool is a site with terrible administration. I once got permanently banned because a moderator was deleting all my posts and I dared to complain about it.
Was your username the same?
The problem with WP is that once a ruling is handed down, they will never reverse it. Many moderators are power hungry down there and get on their wrong side good luck.
Agreed, keyboard warriors whose life is the forum. My account had probably 50% of its posts deleted, all but one was by the same moderator. I brought this up in the talk to the mod forum, and they banned me. I've never had a post deleted here. I post exactly the same kind of posts. In one thread titled 'Is this a bogan car', I replied 'yes 100% bogan car' and the mod who targeted my posts deleted it while completely ignoring the rest of the thread which had turned into a torrent of abuse. A very badly run forum, which is a pity, because some of the members are really helpful.
WP can be heavily moderated but i think the quality of the forum tends to be better for it. People tend to fall in line and stay on the safe side when they post. Posters are generally helpful and it's easier to find information. And sometimes the mods get it wrong but sometimes they get it right like banning jv.
On the other end of the scale is OCAU. That forum is a cesspool.
I disagree. You never see people joking on whirlpool, it's just a sea of boring and bland, mixed with terrible spelling and grammar. Literally 90% of the members don't know the difference between than, then, your, you're, their there, they're, brakes and breaks. And commas? Forget about it.
Yep the moderation policy has pretty much caused conformity, where a new member who posts slightly away from the norm is reported to moderators. For me it's a case where the founder, has forgotten that its the members who keep his site in business. His site was pretty much one of the first one around, it was going to get big by simply by been right place and time. Though I acknowledge Simon has a done a good job with the website interface and not implementing ads for members. However, for me he has lost his way in relation to moderation and rewarding long term members.
JV is banned?
Only from Whirlpool. Not OZB.
@strikerzebra: Yep, over the long run most OzB would be banned if they didn't adapt their posts to WP moderation policies. They're the type of place who ban someones who contributes 1000's of beneficial posts that helps others, because you have made 100 posts against their rules.
@strikerzebra: Defs! I'm sure like OzB, only a small minority constantly contribute, whereas the other 'members' just read. Why you would want to ban a member, who is helping the site doesn't make sense.
I got banned on there once after I pointed out that one of the mods was high up in a web hosting company and he was deleting any negative comments about said company by classing them as trolling or off-topic. To this day I'm still banned in that section because of him and he is still moderating the section..
So much double standards on that shit site
What a joke, conflict of interest much!
What many sites fail to address is that moderators are humans and are prone to biases. I'm sure the site is aware of his interests in that web hosting company, but once you in the moderator circle you have 'perfect judgement and trustworthy'.
There are posts I manage to see that get removed/hidden or moved to forums that cause loss of deal information etc. If a properly formatted deal is moved to a forum you lose tons of features that the poster may have put in such as when the deal ends and starts.
You can't comment or vote 30 days after a deal ends. This policy may make sense if it was 180 days or so - but at 30 it just limits the community.
These two points may seem off topic almost. The truth is these policies (IMO) artificially lock down content that may be negative.
As for negative votes…. it's slowly become that upvoting is a plus vote and not upvoting is a negative vote. Half the time the real negative votes are about bait and switch at dick smith - a week later hundreds of votes for another similar sale at dick smith. This is classic hivemind negativity that makes me question upvote numbers.
I despise the usefulness of voting systems in general and I almost never vote on comments.
+1 from me :)
And closing topics is one of the most annoying things in the universe short of an catastrophic asteroid hitting your planet. stackoverflow closes questions as off-topic or unsuitable for forum format but keeps the upvoted answers there from 2012. Grrrr!
There are posts I manage to see that get removed/hidden or moved to forums that cause loss of deal information etc.
Do you have any examples? Where there are deals which turn out to not be deals (e.g. price error etc.) with useful information or discussion, we almost always move it to the forums. Your suggestion is good. We can certainly add start and end dates to deals moved to forums.
You can't comment or vote 30 days after a deal ends. This policy may make sense if it was 180 days or so - but at 30 it just limits the community.
Just hit the report button and we'll open up the comments. Commenting isn't linked to deal end dates but rather either a fixed time or if no comments have been made for a while.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/216668 - This is one I could find that I remember. It's a bad example since it's removed due to it being targeted - but it works for me in my case.
Whirlpool to me is full of people who were the boy scout snitches in highschool who were never liked. These same people then went on to become boring white collar types who obey every instruction from their master. I agree with the over-moderation aspect, which keeps away a certain demographic of posters and only caters to the 35+ crowd. But yes, there are some big time loser mods there - Hu_lion, Meszudo and the knob that mods the Apple section comes to mind. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
OCAU is much better because you can attack people and get away with it, which makes it a bit fun. I mainly go there for selling stuff though since there's no fees involved and I've never had a bad transaction apart from a few flakers.
Absolutely nailed it, I love how the mods all back up each other in their sham "in house discussion". WP should eliminate talk with a mod, what purpose does it serve? When they never reverse their decision.
I definitely have more fun at OCAU. And yes, their trading forums are really worth it. Heaps of trades as well. I dare say a tad bit more addicting thant ozbargain at times.
Voted "Undecided". I wanted to vote "Yes", but the reality is that if you have a large crowd, it generally won't be friendly. A friendly forum is much easier to achieve when it's just friends over a campfire chat. However when you have all walks of people coming here with variety of reasons seeking different things, it can get rowdy sometimes.
I think it might be too much of an ask to request everyone to be friendly, however I would like to remind people to be respectful. @hamza23 posted about it back in June.
I have to disagree with rogr's assessment on OCAU where
… is much better because you can attack people and get away with it, which makes it a bit fun
Personal attacks on individuals are not allowed here on OzBargain, and depending on the severity, your account might be banned. Moreover it's certainly not fun for the ones being attacked.
Treat people as you would like to be treated.It's as simple as that.
What if you like been treated with no respect :)
There are other forums for that. Our just go shopping at Dick Smith / Harvey Norman :)
It's more of a general interest crowd here. Basically people out to save a buck, which potentially includes anyone.
The forums are basically a bit of a sideshow en route to the bargains, so no one really takes it seriously. Eg jjb's perennial life crises. People participate in those discussions if they want to.
I have to say though that the lady who had her cake cut up in the restaurant is the funniest thing I read in a long time.
Compare whirlpool with youtube comments and it makes Whirlpool like a kiddy ground. I've been in the "penalty box" many times for voicing "agressive" opinions, so I do find whirlpool mods are quite active.
Though it seems people get much more harsh punishment there with permanent banishment, i feel they are quite soft.
In contrast with ozbargain, I changed my display picture to a burning flag once and it was immediately taken down… lol (i think i am banned from using display pictures).
I changed my display picture to a burning flag once and it was immediately taken down… lol (i think i am banned from using display pictures).
You'll notice this in your account:
Profile Avatar Overriden. Please notify a moderator after you have updated the avatar.
Was it a white flag? they should read the signs lol
It was a burning australia flag to represent my firey passion for the australian flag.
Prob Coz no one cares enough to argue. Or are not smart enough. Or smart enough to not waste their time. Time is money.
Some times I'm a arse! But if you read what i post i really do and try help people as much as i can… yes i can be out spoken but i do not get involved in certain debatable subjects the usual ones.
Not all of us are loaded and can afford to buy every thing we need at the normal prices so this site helps a lot! some people treat this site like a full time job they are real champions here!
There are a lot of nice genuine people on here god bless you all.
But then you have the other side of people who do like to personally attack some one for having a different opinion not to sounds like a bogan but that is UN-Australian if our country ever looses our ability to have a laugh and a far argument with out things getting out of hand… Then we are lost as a country…
If there is a forum where i can say i fit into perfect. it is budgetlightforum some people on there will go out of there to help you out and they are always willing to have a chat and then we get kicked out of the thread for writing to much lol…I will place this site on the same level for general atmosphere
Keep up the good work!!!!!!
I have found lots of deals here, i made an account to help someone else when they had a question
Very welcoming placeI thought I was been helpful last week so I shared a 50% off deal, clearly as people had to still pay money it was not good enough! Fair enough I guess people only want really cheap deals and freebies on here.
People are on here for one thing - Find the cheapest price possible on a product, if not they want it for free. If the deal is not good enough.
Overall I would not class this forum/ site as the nicest online, sure Whirlpool is worse though plenty of other forums around.
You're wrong, many expensive deals have been up voted. Just last week a car deal was on the front page and that was $14k+
Its just the nature of your deal which makes it hard to measure if the 50% off is genuine or not. Things that involve a service usually are difficult to measure the intrinsic value and often not targeted towards the masses.
Perhaps next time if you provided verified demand/sales, the community might be more receptive. A bargain website, hates nothing more than someone coming here claiming a big discount, when in reality the discounted price is normal every day price.
Yes. Except for anything to do with religion
Yep Religion doesn't go down nicely any where on the internet.
Politics and Religion, two of the things that causes so much fights online and offline.
I think in public people are more reserved, as they don't want to burn bridges.
@gamechanger: Eh, I've seen some passive aggressive responses in public from people who've been talking about those (along with fights, verbal and physical). What I usually find is, either someone goes too far and starts insulting people or the conversation becomes too close to bullying, given the group has more people on one side (which I personally find disturbing at the very least).
Eh, I personally think they are a topic that's better to be left untouched. Few jokes about them are fine as long the people in the convo don't get too serious about it (Though those jokes can get sour as well), I suppose.
Deals are short-living, not really much to troll about. Also, one common interest makes miracles!
What happened to Gamechanger?
I got banned for one week- lets just say don't question any big deal poster as the site will protect them at all costs.
Pointless comment got permanently banned for 'bullying' even though he was called insecure and needed 'mental help'.
I got banned for a week too - mods seemed similarly protective of others. They aim to shut you down at all costs, and unfortunately, it's very easy for them to do so.
Not really friendly, I think the moderators are definitely 'over eager'
Also make wrongful assumptions instead of through investigation.
Definitely agree, based on my experiences at least. Or alternatively, they're over eager, except for their favourites who can get away with anything! :-P
Yep the rules suddenly 'bend' for the favorites.
Funny, I thought you already made a thread on this
Or is this crap gonna pollute every other thread?
@Spackbace: Why are you stalking me? How about you read who wrote the comments.
You going to front up and admit to neg me, or just pretend you never do it.
I negged because of the delicious irony between your original post and your current bitterness. Were you once a so-called 'favourite' who has now fallen from grace? Is that what this is all about?
@Jar Jar Binks: My original post is about the people on Ozbargain which still remains true..
I was never a favorite, I'm just wanting transparency so that great users don't get banned unfairly. There are endless amount of comments that the Moderators favor certain users when the whips come out.
@GameChanger:
Let me get this right: you're saying that you're advocating for the "people of ozbargain" and "the great users" who get banned unfairly? So this isn't about you at all? How selfless.@Jar Jar Binks:
I'm staying out right out of this, although it would certainly add to the irony, if this thread gets closed, too.Grabs Popcorn…
Gets driven slightly crazy by bit of popcorn stuck between teeth..
Bit of popcorn sucked from between teeth by amorous Kate Ceberano in very strange twist of fate.
Life is Strange…
@Jar Jar Binks: I know that I certainly took your 'What happened to Gamechanger' question, further up, as a true expression of heartfelt concern…
Don't get too stirred-up. Just not worth it.
I totally agree with GameChanger for what's it's worth. There's a lot that the mods do that's certainly very questionable and murky, it's just that they're very quick to delete posts when it suits them, so even if you wanted to share your negative experiences with them, you can't or not allowed to.
when it suits them.
I'm curious what this is in reference to.
TBH I'm glad that this site is moderated, especially given the size. The number of shill companies that post, that fly under the radar on other sites, is actually pretty surprising. Found one out yesterday who was outright lying about his company re-branding, and the old name of the company had some really negative feedback on here previously. By having that moderated, and removing the post, likely saved members from getting done over. Yet the deal post remains on another forum…
It's just this that many people don't realise, or care to realise, and don't give as much praise to the mods as they deserve.
Oh don't worry, I certainly realise this place needs to be moderated! And I'd love to tell you the details of what the mods have done and said, but if I did they'd just delete the posts and permanently ban me, which they've threatened in the past!
It's comments like yours that elevate them to levels of (undeserved) greatness here, plus the fact that they delete negatives posts immediately, that means a lot don't realise their negative sides too. I mean, geez, they're full time employees being paid, they're not martyrs!!
It's comments like yours that elevate them to levels of (undeserved) greatness here, plus the fact that they delete negatives posts immediately, that means a lot don't realise their negative sides too. I mean, geez, they're full time employees being paid, they're not martyrs!!
Yeah, and the Police are paid… But they're a necessary evil that prevents complete anarchy
@Spackbace: well our opinions clearly differ regarding the police too - I have a lot more respect for the police than the mods here and wouldn't call police an 'evil' at all, no matter how necessary. At least the police follow procedures and are held accountable and follow the law - the mods here are a law unto themselves.
the mods here are a law unto themselves.
Well it is a privately owned and run site, they're well within their rights to have their own rules and regulations
@Spackbace: yeah, if they were transparent, honest, open and consistent with them - it'd be great. If they allowed open comment and discussion about them - awesome. But they don't. That's the issue that GameChanger and I have had (separate issues, similar themes).
You know, we've tried to hold out responding to these malicious and deceitful threads and comments. But it seems every day there is a new thread or comment by the same group of people. However, the moderators are now feeling bullied and upset and that's the line I draw. So instead of making broad false statements, lets deal with the facts and issues that people have.
So since you asked for transparency, here is the full history of what happened :
- This deal was posted Free "Travel Ideas Magazines" in The Mail from Flight Centre by another user.
- Blippy reported the deal that it should go in the forums. Per our guidelines it doesn't.
- Blippy sent us a number of messages in a short amount of time (1 hr) which he hadn't had a chance to respond or look at in relation to the deal being move to the forums.
- Instead of waiting for us to respond, the user posted a deal for Free Coles Magazine at over 750 Locations around Australia or Online. It was removed for trolling (& user temporarily banned) as comments by the OP in the deal + comments alluded that it wasn't meant to be a deal.
- An automated message informed the user of this.
- In that time, numerous further messages were made by the user before we had a chance to respond (5 in 2 hours). Keep in mind, we answer TWAMs within 24 hours, not minutes.
- A moderator responded to the user within 3 hours with a 890 word response to all of their points.
- The moderator in question responded in 3 further messages. There were multiple things discussed but the bottom line was that the user didn't agree with some of the issues. That's fine. Agree to disagree and the thread was marked as resolved.
- The user requested another moderator to talk to as they believed mod 1 had a bias towards him. So I spoke to the user and the points of disaggreal were:
- Trolling shouldn't be a 7 day ban as opposed to other offenses which should be.
- The user created a ghost account. Or secure their computer so "another account" can't be created.
- Multimedia should included when describing paper products.
- This went on for about 14 comments (back and forth). The last few by the user were just accusations with no issues.
- Unhappy with this, the user then proceeded to post on the site discussion dragging this issue from TWAM to site discussion.
- It was removed by Scotty and told to further discussion in TWAM.
- Scotty seeing the continuing issue with this user, responded further in TWAM.
- With no end in site to this user's pursuit, we stated that we would not comment further on this as 3 moderators and numerous comments had got us nowhere.
- So then user robbegong posts the comment above which seems a bit strange given the user hasn't really used the site often. Our system flags the account as associated with the user + suspicious voting.
And to again respond to GameChanger's ridiculous trolling comments, there are no favourites and we certainly don't bend the rules for people. That's an outright offensive lie. This user + a couple of other users were warned on a couple of occasions for attacking one specific user which he/some proceeded to to do anyway. Personal attacks & bullying are not acceptable and you will be banned.
We try to be as consistent as possible, but just because you disagree with a decision doesn't make you right. This isn't a court of a law. OzBargain is a club in which membership is optional. The rules are set out by the club. But once a member starts fights with another member, we ask the 2 members to stop fighting. If the member(s) continues to fight they will be asked to leave the club and not return for an amount of time. And if this still continues, we have no choice but to revoke your membership.
So while our club always welcomes feedback, if you don't accept the clubs rules, then you can not be a member.
As stated before, we take moderation seriously. We are here in the mornings, late at night, holidays, etc to make sure the site is the best it can be. It's not only a job but a passion that mostly grew from voluntary non-paid moderation. Saying we are doing dodgy things, favouritism, randomly doing whatever is hurtful to us and I can see it is affecting other moderators negatively.
- So if someone has an issue with a feature or guidelines (e.g. this one from this morning, let us know in Site Discussion.
- If you have an issue with moderation or a mod, use the Talk with a Moderator forum.
- If you don't like the site or the moderation, then feel free to disable your account (located in My Account). Further lies and toxic, trolling comments will result in bans as we aren't going to put up with it any further.
@neil: WOW - you just proved one of my many and varied points, Neil! When I've mentioned inconsistent treatment to you about particular people your standard response has always been 'We can't discuss anything about other users because of privacy' and now look what you've done - posted a detailed, graphic history of everything to do with me in a completely biased and incorrect way! What the hell happened to user privacy? You've just proved my point that mods behave any way you want to and you bend the rules when it suits you
@neil: You also omitted the point that I've been trying to get through to you mods the whole time - my issues in Site Discussion forum weren't anything to do with the Coles/Travel magazine issue, which I told you repeatedly in clear English. So I really don't know what else I could've done. If you want to bring this public, I'm happy to post the content of my messages? Then we could get a balanced view of things?
@neil: I would like to respond, but the way you have wrote the comment doesn't allow me to.
Also to it being only a handful, Neil have a look at the up votes on comments which you deem incorrect.
@blippy: For transparency reasons you should, I would but I don't have many responses from TWAM.
I am yet to receive a reason why my comment was deemed 'bullying', funny that I still speak to that user in question
@neil: The content of my last message before you threatened to permanently ban me:
The moderators seem confused and are conflating two separate issues. My situation about my particular Coles/travel post is resolved.
The situation relating to whether these magazine deals can be posted at all is not resolved. They're two separate things. What don't you understand about that?
We can agree to disagree about the trolling posts - that's done and dusted. I explained the so-called multiple accounts - done.
But can these deals be posted? This is unresolved and deserves community discussion as indicated in the guidelines. What don't you understand?
So, following the guidelines, can you unlock my site discussion post?
Not sure what was so bad about this! But it got the mods upset for sure.
I speak for a number of people here when I just say 3 simple words, once uttered by John Lennon…
Let it be
Or do prefer the Elsa form?
Let it go
FFS!
@neil: And then Scotty replied:
Which part don't you understand on "there will be no further discussion on this"? More of this and your account will be disabled and you will be forever banned on OzBargain.
This is the final warning.
And then I replied:
I don't understand the part that no further discussion will be had - they're two separate issues. That's what I don't understand, and you haven't explained. You keep mentioning the Coles thing, which I don't care about. Have you seen the guidelines? They actually say that you should post in site discussion forum but my post was deleted - thats what I don't understand. That's all I've been trying to do - understand why I can't follow the guidelines and talk about this issue (not related to the Coles thing).
And I've since had no response!!! How is this unreasonable at all?! And then you go and post all of this private stuff (which was in a closed forum TWAM) all over the public forum!! How's that for taking your role seriously?! And here I was thinking that TWAM was closed and private! Ha!
@Spackbace: Neil has opened a can of worms.
But I'm not allowed to respond because of repercussions. And this wasn't an appropriate place to reply, look what the thread is about…
@Spackbace: Yeah, right. So in the end, the mods are so powerful, they do so much, bla bla bla, just let it be. Sigh. Guess what - I was letting it be - I hadn't responded and I had let it go. Does that mean I'm not able to have an opinion on how I was treated? Does that mean that I have to sit here and shut up? Keep in mind these posts are in a forum topic about how friendly this site is - and look at the examples (even from Neil, the moderator of the site)… does it look friendly? Not to me.
You stated:
And I'd love to tell you the details of what the mods have done and said, but if I did they'd just delete the posts
and
if they were transparent, honest, open and consistent with them - it'd be great.
and also you asked why someone else was or wasn't banned and I told you we don't discuss it. A bit different if you are airing your issue in the thread.
If you want to bring this public, I'm happy to post the content of my messages
I summarized your messages as there were around 33 of them, many which were just insults. We've responded numerous times. Paper is not considered multimedia. See wikipedia.
Also to it being only a handful, Neil have a look at the up votes on comments which you deem incorrect.
Ha, yeah that was a bit of a tipoff. :)
@neil: Neil its great that you respond to us, though understand when you're sarcastic it doesn't come across as unbiased.
@neil: No, it's not different. You're still disclosing private conversations I've had with mods that were in a closed forum and you're making it public. That's a breach of privacy.
Yeah, I made those criticisms - so what? They weren't specifically against you or even any details of it. It's my opinion and you shouldn't be trying to shut down opinion - it's the freakin' internet. And it's the forums. It's the place for discussion!!
You didn't summarise my messages accurately, but I've started posting some as well. You showed me the wikipedia link before - but that page actually says paper can be multimedia, if you actually read it.
They weren't specifically against you or even any details of it. It's my opinion and you shouldn't be trying to shut down opinion - it's the freakin' internet. And it's the forums.
Constructive criticism is fine. Making false accusations, lies, and false accounts is unacceptable. Bullying of OzBargain staff especially on OzBargain is not acceptable. I won't stand here and allow users to upset members of the staff nor other OzBargain members.
@neil: I wasn't bullying anyone in these posts? Yes, I admit I wrote things that weren't complimentary (putting it mildly) in the TWAM posts but I don't see how that's related to my opinion posted here where I haven't targeted anyone?
And my accounts have been truthful! It's you who has repeatedly deleted my posts and skewed the facts. It's hard to defend yourself and post the truth when your posts keep getting deleted!
we are not the only ones with JV
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/user/86592