Part Time Job in Hospitality - Questions of Fairness

[Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 18:44
Last edited 22/09/2015 - 18:46

Few questions here regarding a job in hospitality:

It's a Part Time job. Casual positions aren't offered at all at this restaurant.

  • Can Managers instruct staff, once they've arrived for their rostered shifts, to "wait 10/15/20/30 minutes" to start their shifts because the restaurant isn't as busy as expected? Is this fair? Similarly, is it fair/legal for the Managers to instruct staff to take unrostered breaks during their shifts at times when the place isn't busy, or to leave work earlier than their shifts end for similar reasons? Do employees have to comply?

  • The Managers have a habit of telling staff to "clock off, then discuss any work matters with us", even if those matters are serious/important/not trivial. Sometimes this means staff are left waiting around for over half an hour for Managers to finish off whatever they're doing first, before they're finally addressed. Might be worth noting that the Managers are lazy and mostly eat and socialise during shifts rather than do any actual work.

  • Is anyone else here familiar with the Hospitality industry? Are 'double shifts' normal at all? Say, starting at 10:45 AM and working for 3 hours, having a 5 hour break, then returning back to work at 6:30 PM until 10:15 PM? Or from 9 AM until 9 PM with a one hour break only in the middle. Double shifts like these are given to everyone (except Managers) and employees were never asked about doing such hours at any stage prior. How would you feel about working such hours, regardless of the industry?

  • Are there set minimum hours for a shift for Part Time employees? Is a 2 hour shift allowed? Is there any documentation anywhere that I can read up on this, that someone could point me towards? I've had a quick browse of Fair Work but my brain has been fried lately soooo any help/guidance would be great.

Thanks in advance and apologies for any poorly worded questions or 'why didn't you just Google that' type questions :P

Education & Work

closed Comments

  • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 18:55
    +5

    Are there set minimum hours for a shift for Part Time employees? Is a 2 hour shift allowed? Is there any documentation anywhere that I can read up on this, that someone could point me towards? I've had a quick browse of Fair Work but my brain has been fried lately soooo any help/guidance would be great.

    There is a minimum but stuffed if I can remember, but it would be more than 2hrs.

    I worked hospitality for about 10yrs, and I can tell you've got 1 of those dodgy places that does it to get away with it. Unless you really really really love the job, just get out of there. It's far easier just moving to the next place, than it is trying to get them to change systems. Sure, they'll do it to the next person, but who's to say that once you complain, they don't just go back to doing things that way anyway!

    • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 18:57
      +4

      Replying to myself to separate it:

      http://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-wo…

      Each time a full-time, part-time or casual employee works they have to be given at least:

      6 hours in a day, for full-time
      3 hours in a row, for part-time
      2 hours in a row, for casuals.

      If they aren't given these hours, they still have to be paid a minimum of:

      6 hours for full-time
      3 hours for part-time
      2 hours for casuals.

      • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 22:38

        This part is really interesting since the restaurant in question used to offer Casual positions, but then got rid of them and forced everyone onto Part Time contracts. There are still a few employees who joined up early on, still working as Casuals, who are now planning to quit purely because Managers are pushing them to sign the Part Time contract.

        I guess this place still treat staff like Casuals but have them as Part Timers on the books.

        What are your thoughts on my first point/issue raised, Spackbace? Ever encountered such yourself? I'd overheard someone say that it's allowed for Casual employees but shouldn't be done for Part Timers. But.. citation needed lol.

        Edit - another issue posted below as another comment.. there will probably be more to come >_<

    • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 18:57
      +2

      Restaurant award is here:

      http://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000119

    • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 19:00
      +2

      Say, starting at 10:45 AM and working for 3 hours, having a 5 hour break, then returning back to work at 6:30 PM until 10:15 PM?

      No, not allowed. There is a minimum 10hrs between shifts.

      Or from 9 AM until 9 PM with a one hour break only in the middle.

      That's fine, as from memory a 30min break is required after 5hrs work. Yes, I have worked those sorts of shifts (with a 30min break in the middle!)

      To quote the award:

      31.5 Minimum break between shift

      The roster for all employees other than casuals will provide for a minimum 10 hour break between the finish of ordinary hours on one day and the commencement of ordinary hours on the following day. In the case of changeover of rosters,eight hours will be substituted for 10 hours.

      So 8hrs minimum on the 1 day

      • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 19:02
        +1

        Thank you so much, Spack!

        • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 19:04
          +2

          All good. It was all there if you googled :P

        • eatwell365 on 22/09/2015 - 20:36

          @Spackbace:
          What is your view on this?

          The Managers have a habit of telling staff to "clock off, then discuss any work matters with us", even if those matters are serious/important/not trivial.

        • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 20:55
          +5

          @eatwell365:

          Personally I'd give it 15mins or leave if I was off the clock. I wouldn't be waiting over 30mins just to be spoken to! You want me to stay to chat, you be there at that time or else I have somewhere better to be!

        • GaryQ on 23/09/2015 - 07:29
          +3

          @eatwell365:

          I do this all the time at work - my boss specifically asked me to start at 0730 to cater for users who clock in early (I work in IT Support) and then insists on scheduling 'Progress Review Meetings' at 16:30 on a friday afternoon.

          Sorry buddy, I'm out the door at 15:30. If you want to talk to me, come find me while I'm paid to be here.

        • tonyjzx on 23/09/2015 - 09:02

          @GaryQ:

          'Progress Review Meetings' are not paid? I can understand shiftiness in hospitality but IT is pretty solid

      • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 12:05
        +2

        I have the thought you need to have more than one hour break for a 12 hour shift. I think you should get: 1 x unpaid meal break of not less than 30 minutes, and 2 x paid 20 minute breaks.

        http://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-wo…

        • spackbace on 23/09/2015 - 12:11
          +3

          Whoops missed the fact it was 12hrs, so yeah you're right :)

          Hey I can't be right all the time :P

      • PoorStudent on 01/10/2015 - 01:40

        No, not allowed. There is a minimum 10hrs between shifts.

        This is not true.

        The first shift in the morning and second shift in the evening does not have to have 10 hrs minimum between shifts.

        The 10 hour minimum is targeted for people who finish in the evenings and may have to start in the morning again.

        E.g. Waiter finishes at 1 AM means they cannot start work the next morning before 11 AM.

    • spackbace on 22/09/2015 - 19:04
      +2

      To quote the award:

      31.2 The arrangement of ordinary hours must meet the following conditions:

      (a) a minimum of six hours and a maximum of 11 and a half hours may be worked on any one day. The daily minimum and maximum hours are exclusive of meal break intervals;

      (b) an employee cannot be rostered to work for more than 10 hours per day on more than three consecutive days without a break of at least 48 hours;

      (c) no more than eight days of more than 10 hours may be worked in a four week period;

      (d) an employee must be given a minimum break of 10 hours between the finish of ordinary hours of work on one day and the commencement of ordinary hours of work on the next day. In the case of a changeover of rosters the minimum break must be eight hours;

      (e) an employee must be given a minimum of eight full days off per four week period;or

      (f) an employee under the age of 18 years must not be required to work more than 10 hours in a shift.

    • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 19:09

      Sure, they'll do it to the next person, but who's to say that once you complain, they don't just go back to doing things that way anyway!

      This place has an incredibly high staff turn over rate. It's no wonder why.

      Most of their staff are fresh from overseas, quite innocent, quite needy for jobs/cash, and probably don't know their rights or where to find such information out. They're also young, like <25. Students. Out of say 60 employees, probably 3 are Australian born and who knows why they're working there considering the wealth of other employment options with far better, fair treatment.

      The Managers are awful. The restaurant is quite woeful. Customer service leaves much to be desired. Yet it's popular. Heart of the CBD.

      Thanks again for all your info.

      • NamandSpam on 22/09/2015 - 21:20
        +4

        What's the restaurant called? Please, I'm curious

    • Thenarrator on 22/09/2015 - 21:54

      work for a while then threaten to report them to fair trade commission for any illegal activities they forced upon you. receive reward

      • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 22:33

        I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. I don't see the point, ethically/morally, in simply threatening to report them if they are indeed breaking rules and treating staff unfairly or illegally. They should be reported - it should be done. But done properly, at the right time, with the most information gathered. It isn't really about rewards either but that is definitely a significant part of it for the employees who might be owed pay, for instance when they've worked for 2 hour shifts as Part Timers and apparently should be paid for 3 hours as per: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/212311#comment-3067369. It's going to be interesting considering those 2 hour shifts mostly sit on weekends, on weekend pay rates. Hello backpay.

        • Doggiie on 24/09/2015 - 19:16

          I reported my Chinese restaurant I used to work at to both the ATO and FWC, https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/209138#comment-3012854

          I think it would be advantageous for you do to so. Obviously morally it is wrong because you are choosing to work there, but it is giving them the signal to continue to breach the law on multiple counts. If everyone does the right thing, it would be better for everyone.

  • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 22:46

    Another issue that recently occurred: Two employees were rostered at the same time on a Sunday (one for a 2 hour shift, one for 3 hours). They both live 30+ KM from the restaurant and travelled to work that day, not knowing what their role at the restaurant was going to be that day, as usual. The weather had been gloomy/rainy for several hours before they arrived at work [relevant detail].

    When they arrived, the Manager on duty told them she only needed one staff member to stay for the shift and one had to go home. Reason was the shift was intended to be an outdoor promotions activity but the weather was poor. She did not make any effort to call either employee that morning to tell them the plans or that one would not be needed (note: weather was already indicative). One staff member went home. It was a Sunday and Sunday/highest pay rates applied. The employee who went home also happened to be one of the newest employees hired - a young female, exceptionally sweet, with this being her first job (probably irrelevant detail but IMO you can start to see how staff are quite vulnerable here).

    Is this fair? Legal? She is a Part Time employee.

    • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 23:10
      +4

      Definitely not fair, and I am 90% certain that is not legal.

      • PoorStudent on 01/10/2015 - 01:44

        Definitely not fair, and I am 90% certain that is not legal.

        This is true to some extent.

        This is legal if the manager gets the staff to sign a mutual agreement sign off sheet/form that they mutually agreed to go home without working. Sheets like these are commonly used in the hospitality industry.

        Whether the staff freely agrees to an 'early finish' is a totally different matter.

    • spackbace on 23/09/2015 - 00:37
      +3

      Not legal, you have to work your rostered shift. Check the award :)

      • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 00:40

        Thanks muchly <3

        • spackbace on 23/09/2015 - 00:49
          +3

          (a) A roster for full-time and part-time employees showing normal starting and finishing times and the surname and initials of each employee will be prepared by the employer and will be posted in a conspicuous place accessible to the employees concerned.

          (b) The roster will be alterable by mutual consent at any time or by amendment of the roster on seven days’notice. Where practicable,two weeks’notice of rostered day or days off should be given provided that the days off may be changed by mutual consent or through sickness or other cause over which the employer has no control.

          Bam! I knew it was in there lol

          Does bring back memories of a manager who used to change shifts that were rostered (only every now and then). Once I read up on the award, that changed ;)

        • tonyjzx on 24/09/2015 - 12:28
          +1

          This disgusting behaviour. It shows a complete disrespect for people.

          I got annoyed when I got put on a shift and then they cancelled it but at least I get paid 4hrs min. + travel.

        • [Deactivated] on 25/09/2015 - 02:00

          @Spackbace: This place prepares and posts out their rosters to staff on Tuesdays (but usually Wednesdays, and late at that) for the coming Monday.

          Less than 7 days notice. Week to week rosters…

  • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 22:54
    +2

    Seems dodgy as hell. I think your best bet is to record EVERYTHING, the times you were rostered to start/finish/take breaks, the times you actually did start/finish/take meal breaks and why it was that those times were changed. If you can get you co-workers to do similar, that helps your case even more. I'd then get in contact with the Fair Work Ombudsman - http://www.fairwork.gov.au/ and let them know what is going on.

    If you don't complain, and just quit as it seems many have done before, this place will never learn. Better that it goes on record and if anyone else in the future ever makes complaint about working for them it will come done even harder on them.

  • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2015 - 23:09
    +2

    Also, if they have pushed people into part time positions instead of casual they might have even shot themselves in the foot even further. I don't know if it is the same in hospitality, but when I worked retail I was casual most of the time which meant higher pay, but there was that risk of having no hours. I was on a temporary part time contract for 3 months, and that meant less pay but guaranteed hours, sick pay if needed and also holiday pay.

    I have a feeling that your company has put people on part time contracts to pay them less than a casual, but are treating them like casuals still without the benefit or security you get for that cut in pay.

    I really hope that if you signed anything, you have a copy of it, because it might not just be wages you are owed, but also holiday pay/sick leave you might have been denied.

    • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 00:37

      They made all the Part Timers sign contracts, but never gave those employees copies of the contracts to keep. One employee asked for a copy when signing it, and was told by the Manager "we'll give you a copy later".

      After some hassling, they eventually got a photocopy of the original they signed.

      No other staff member has a copy and never thought to ask for one.

      So, would it be right to say that all the Part Time staff should be guaranteed a certain number of hours per week, being Part Time staff? What if Management sneakily decide to cut/reduce the hours of some staff without consulting them (say, if the Managers aren't particularly fond of certain employees?) - is this against the Part Time dealio?

      • spackbace on 23/09/2015 - 00:50
        +1

        I can't seem to find info about minimum hours, only a maximum of 38.

        • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 02:08
          +1

          I don't think there is a minimum in the award, but it does seem that it is agreed on by staff and management, it would be there in the contract you signed.

          I went to: http://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/types-of-em… and entered hospitality, cafes & restaurants. This is what came up:

          "Based on what you've told us, it looks like you're covered by the Restaurant Industry Award 2010 [MA000119].

          A part-time employee is employed to work less than 38 ordinary hours per week. An employer and employee have to agree on a regular pattern of work when the employee starts.

          The agreement has to be in writing and include:

          the hours worked each day
the days of the week the employee will work
the start and finish times each day

          The employer should keep a copy of the agreement, and give a copy to the employee.

          The hours in the agreement have to be worked within the ordinary hours in the award. This includes the times of day the hours can be worked and the maximum and minimum hours of work. For the ordinary hours in this award, go to Hours of work.

          Use the Part-time hours of work agreement and variation (DOC 91KB) template to record part-time hours of work.
          When can a part-time employee’s hours be changed?

          The pattern of work can only be changed if the employer and employee agree to it in writing. The employer should keep a copy of the change, and give a copy to the employee.

          The roster for the days and time of work (not the amount of hours worked) may be changed in other ways than by agreement. For the rules about when a roster can be changed, go to Rosters.

          Use the Part-time hours of work agreement and variation (DOC 91KB) template to record changes to part-time hours of work.
          When can an employee change to part-time?

          An employee might want to go part-time, either for a short amount of time or permanently. The employer and employee should agree in writing to the change to part-time employment.

          An employer can’t make a person change from full-time to part-time employment. If an employer does this, it may be a redundancy. For more information on what a redundancy is, go to Redundancy.
          What happens to leave entitlements when changing to part-time?

          When an employee changes from full-time to part-time, they keep any leave they have accumulated, such as annual leave or sick leave."

          Yeah, your place of work is breaking a lot of laws it seems.

          I wonder if they pay their taxes properly? Maybe a tip-off to the Australian Tax Office is needed for an audit ;)

          Maybe the health department would love to know if there has been any issues with food safety and an inspection is due ;)

  • Ughhh on 23/09/2015 - 02:42

    Willing to bet my on pet rock that the restaurant in question is a Chinese restaurant.

    • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 03:24
      +1

      Nope. It's an international company with restaurants across the globe. It doesn't serve Asian cuisine ;) There are four restaurants currently in Australia with plans to expand yearly.

      Guessing games! lol

      I've been interwebs-researching and the problems re: poor management, low wages, overworked/mistreated staff, poor/undertraining, high turnover of employees, etc is an issue that extends to other countries as well.. but it's unclear as to whether any laws are being broken on their end as they are/might be over here.

  • Davo1111 on 23/09/2015 - 04:23
    +1

    Most of these questions will be specific to the Award Wage. Honestly i'd be very surprised if anything you said was legal. Change jobs, report to fairwork and move on

  • windale on 23/09/2015 - 07:55
    +2

    The double shift you mention is actually a split shift and very common. You don't require a large break between shifts. A double shift is two 8 hour shifts in one day, not uncommon either. Split shifts are ok if you live near work.good luck.

  • r2160 on 23/09/2015 - 09:55
    -1

    is this a Steak house in Sydney? My daughter works for a Steak house restaurant that does exactly the same thing.
    They don't care about awards. They don't care about the ramifications if they get caught.
    It wont matter what you say to the authorities, they will do little, if anything.
    If you approach them about it, they will simply give no more shifts.
    I will tell you the same thing I told my daughter, hunt for a better job.

    • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 12:11

      Report them to the relevant government bodies; Fair Work Ombudsman etc. Of course the police aren't going to do anything, it is not their job.

      • r2160 on 24/09/2015 - 10:26

        Authorities doesn't only mean Police. I am aware of the Fair Work Ombudsman.

        I have had to speak to them before. While I got a resolution, the impression I got was that they really werent interested.

  • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2015 - 12:09
    +2

    Sic 'em Turnip!

  • gstfree on 23/09/2015 - 14:11

    Report this employer and find a new job.
    If you are not happy about the pay in your current industry, please skill up.

    • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2015 - 00:34

      I'm a Radiographer, thanks :)

      • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2015 - 12:35

        Some people around here don't BS about their lives, negger ;)

        • Ughhh on 24/09/2015 - 12:54
          +4

          I didn't neg you, but that one -1 must mean a lot to you, enough to make you put the effort into digging out your certificate, write your username on a paper to cover your name, take a photo of it and then upload it.

          Calm down and eat cake, whether the neg was accidental or intentional, you don't need to validate yourself to strangers.

        • [Deactivated] on 24/09/2015 - 13:10

          Are you registered with the MRPBA ? Or is that only for specialist radiographers?

        • Tal_Shiar on 25/09/2015 - 02:52

          a sweetheart and smart hey? :P

        • GaryQ on 25/09/2015 - 12:11
          +1

          TIL how to earn a degree in Radiology. Thanks WT!

      • eatwell365 on 26/09/2015 - 10:31

        so you can see through people?

        • [Deactivated] on 27/09/2015 - 14:51

          Yep. :)

  • [Deactivated] on 26/09/2015 - 12:50

    Dodgy employers should always be reported. That being said, things could have been so much worse

    • [Deactivated] on 27/09/2015 - 03:23
      +1

      Careful there, don't want to give his employers any new ideas!

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