Interesting news.
But why no more cash?
Cash is king.
All views will be accepted and read
ANZ Says That There Wont Be Cash Transactions from 2040. Your Views?
grabngo on 19/06/2015 - 10:10
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Almost instant (max 30 sedonds) transfer between different banks bnk accounts is currently scheduled for August 2017. The RBA has forced the banks to implement it. It was originally meant to go in next year but was pushed out. I seriously can't wait.
It will be interesting if it goes through and whether the banks can make it happen in time. At this point in time only CBA has the capabilities to support such a system, it will also reduce the profitability of Bpay which is owned equally between the big 4.
wow intriguing - got any links for this?
As someone who runs a petrol station, I dread the day of no more cash transactions. As it stands my employees and I still deal with 5-10 people a day who don't have money in their bank accounts and end up scrounging though their car to try and find enough change to pay for their fuel. Not to mention the people who fill up come in to pay then hold up the line while they have to transfer money from 3 different bank accounts just to pay for their $20 of fuel.
I don't think people are organised enough for a cashless society.
Non refundable products (Fuel, meals at cafes and restaurants etc) require the "backup" option of cash as its not exactly possible to drain the fuel from someones car, or have them magically uneat a meal.
What about when bank lines go down and as a result no eftpos transactions can be processed?
There are also people who don't like to use cards for every transaction (Myself included). Funning an eftpos card for a kid who just wants to buy a mars bar or can of coke is just going to slow things down, because we all know paypass/paywave doesnt work as quickly as they show on TV.
Speaking of kids, is every child now just going to run around with an eftpos card to spend their pocket money? What about the elderly who don't have an eftpos/credit card (my grandmother only uses a passbook at westpac)? What about the crazy lady down the street who wont use paywave/paypass because, in her own words, "its like witchcraft the way it takes money out of the air" and that "credit cards are just another way for the government to track you"?
No eftpos happened in many locations in NSW recently. Bunnings near me used an old credit card imprint unit (that they slide forward and back over your visa debit/credit card)… You sign - they processed thousands of transactions manually a few days later when power came back on.
I've also seen what happens when the local WW loses their electricity - they closed the store.
I feel like I am in one of those locations. We often revert to the old manual "clack clack" machine with the drop outs we have due to the terrible telecommunications infrastructure in our area.
Also, WW maybe able to afford to close their doors when they have no eftpos, but for a small independent service station that solution is not exactly economically feasible
Don't really see this as a big issue, the US has been doing the opposite to many petrol stations in Australia for ages where the consumer has to pay first or swipe a card to preauthorise an amount even before the pump unlocks we just need to think of ideas to stop people from doing what you mention in the first place?
Yeah, that is the best system I reckon. If you're okay with tech, then swipe and go - too easy. If you don't want to get on board, then go and show your money before you get any fuel. (It did seem crazy to pay in advance when I don't know what the tank will hold, but people paying cash maybe fuel up fixed $ amounts anyway??)
I think by then, they will inject a chip into your body and you pay by walking past a scanner at the automated cashier and you bank acct will be charged.
Will the chip be on your shoulder ?
Can't remember which part of the body was inserted with a chip in Futurama.
The career-chip was inserted in his wrist, as I recall — Revelation-style.
It was into the palm of the hand with a spiked lockjaw clamp.
And it was shown to be an very painful procedure… much like dealing with banks sometimes
This terrifies me. I can handle getting my wallet taken from me but if that chip is in my arm or something wouldn't they cut off your arm or something?
I disagree with this argument. The step from mugging to cutting someones arm off is a gigantic one that most criminals won't take. Sure they might force you to an atm to withdraw cash but thats quite similar to what used to happen before paypass.
If people start getting chipped there isnt going to be some huge increase in arm chopping.
You're wrong, have a look what happens in South Africa when the wealthy with gold end up in wrong places.
Take hard cash away and watch the crime rate of these incidents rise as people will do anything to survive.
Do we live in South Africa? Do we require armed guards to go from airports to hotels?
No. You can't apply other countries problems to here.
@Sweaty-penguin:
I guess the question is whether society is getting better or worse.You say pick pockets will retire. I don't see that happening.
I do agree that society in general is getting worse. I never said that pickpockets will retire, Crime will find a way but I don't think people will start cutting off each others arms in a relatively safe country like Australia.
i mean a lot of mugging or pick pocketing is a spur of the opportunity crime, not deliberately carrying around machetes.
You're assuming that the standard of living in Australia will always be the same.
I got news for you, the gap between the poor and rich is growing. Middle class in 2040 will not likely exist. Australia is outsourcing the middle class jobs such as accounting/finance/engineering at a ridiculously fast rate. The new middle class will likely be in the Asian countries, where their economies will be expanding.
The government has sold us out and as we speak English it be easier to replace us with 'robots' humans who are willing to work 16 hours a day on pittance.
@gamechanger: You are right and I agree but you know what I mean. Stop trying to turn this into something it isn't.
2040, who cares, maybe there'll be no more ANZ by then. Slow day for news?
Ditto
But why no more cash?
Because too many people have stored the cash in their homes..
But legal only up to $1999k. k due to inflation. :)
You know you can remove any vote. No issue for me just thought you might want to know that "feature" of the site 😀
Society as we know it won't cope without cash. Cash is untraceable and a LOT of people like that feature, however not many legitimate reasons for untraceable transactions.
Without untraceable transactions, how do people -
- Buy drugs or other contraban,
- Bribe politicians etc
- Get a "cash price", "mates rates" etc for trade work
- Launder money via children or other family members
- Keep their weekend market sales from the taxman
etc
What about giving a few dollars to your kids for lunch at school? and gold coin donations at so many charity events?
Easy with a token card much like paywave etc. The problem with "cashless" is the transaction becomes electronic ie traceable. I doubt you'd be worried about the kids canteen money being traceable, except that the government might come knocking at your door and accuse you as being an accomplice in the crime of making your kids obese?
Yep who wants to pay a fat tax because their kid don't run.
Many schools have a prepaid credit system already, or an order online. Both require use of C/C.
I doubt the charities would mind accepting Paypass or similar.
Bitcoin is still an option right now… but by 2040 it will most likely be regulated as much as any other currency.
How are they going to regulate it? They cannot control the supply and assuming anonymous internet is still possible how are they going to stop tumbling to hide transactions?
The druggos will keep Bitcoin alive
Legit reasons:
- Simple budgeting (can't overspend unless you cheat and use card)
- Easy to keep track of (open up your purse or wallet and count)
- Haggling/ negotiation tool (I only have $x on me)
- Keeps certain legal activities off your records (alcohol purchases, gaming, hiring professionals)
- Keeps your bank cards away from merchants you don't trust (alcohol purchases, gaming, hiring professionals)
- Makes smaller second hand sales less risky (as you can easily do a straight exchange)
Some solutions to your problems ;-)
- Contraband could be bartered for
- There is no real need to bribe politicians when you can give a political donation (or bikies)
- Most people I know don't complain when given a case of beer
- Everyone needs groceries
- Put sales though an unemployed family member to take advantage of the tax free threshold
Anyway,
wethey would just start using US dollars.
Legit reasons:
Keep your purchase adn spending history to yourself, Based on your spending history the Banks often know you better than your many others. Cash is a good way to keep that info to yourself.i hate the I only have $x on me excuse. I used to work as receptionist in a brothel and men would walk in. open their wallet up and go. Look in my wallet, I only have $x on me. can i get sex?? it happens alot. Have to tell them to come back but some were very insistent.
To be fair to those blokes, those places don't have LED price boards outside. LED OPEN signs on the other hand… :P
Cash is traceable.
I am basically cashless. So much easier to keep track of my spending.
The only time it is useful is when I am in a situation where I need to split the bill with a bunch of people at a restaurant. But if I pay on card and they give me cash, I then have enough cash in my wallet for the next couple of times that happens, and I literally never go to an ATM.
I bought something on gumtree and needed a chunk of cash, so I went to the ATM for the first time in well over a year, couldn't remember my pin, and it ate my card after I failed to guess three times.
A lot of places only allow EFTPOS for a minimum amount, most is like $10 minimum, places like this wants cash.
I find that is really rare, since paypass made credit cards socially acceptable.
But I'm not a person that goes to a cafe every day for coffee, so it might just be my lifestyle. $20 can sit in my wallet for several months untouched.
Some places at Chadstone now have a $15 minimum — apparently the cash-wage for illegal workers is rising… or enough people are prepared to spend ever increasing sums to use a card option.
I am the same.
split the bill with a bunch of people at a restaurant
Pft! Use Splitwise for that.
Ain't nobody got time fo' cash.
Don't know about this… what about buying second hand/garage sales, markets, making donations, school fetes, festivals etc?
The new instant payments mechanism http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-03/billion-dollar-plan-to… will enable instant device to device (eg mobile phones) transactions similar to how Paypal does.
I would be much happier to give the kids a $20 note to spend at a fete/show than my mobile device. Same with festivals when you only take what you don't mind losing.
Then you'd just flick $20 onto their ipod touch. Same as a prepaid visa card - once its gone you can't spend any more.
'festivals'
Wet 'n' Wild supply waterproof bracelets which you can load 'cash' onto.
You could make a universal one today by putting a small, low power smart phone into a waterproof case (bracelet, dog tag, watch, sunnies, etc.) and using a paywave app like combank's. You could make the accessory attractive to create more interest.
That said, I think the market for something like this today would be too small to bother (we have cash, smartphones and smart watches around the corner), but it could be lucrative if you could get a fee per transaction and take a loss on the hardware.
I haven't used cash for years. Cards are so much more convenient and safer. Plus I like to maximise the airline points earned as well. I haven't come across any business for a very long time who doesn't take cards, at least at all the places I ever go. I even see street buskers accepting cards sometimes.
I do keep about $80 in my wallet 'just in case', but that has been there for about 18 months unused. It's rare for there to be a problem with a retailer accepting a card, happens to me maybe once every couple of years, so I just don't need cash.
I also like to be able to have details of everything I bought, it helps keeping the budget in tune. And I couldn't care less if the bank knows what I buy and where, I've got nothing to hide and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Plus it helps if you lose receipts, they can look you up in less than 5 minutes.
Even giving kids pocket money (cash) like how we used to be paid before bank deposit, was good getting the cash, and its good showing the kids this is x dollars and when this is gone its gone, but if they want to save it and stack it with others, then they can manually count their money (which is good for their maths skills also).
OMG won't someone think of the coffee shops…
Most coffee shops, especially the smaller places, could easily switch to a monthly tab system, if they can't stump up ~$100 for their own card terminal.
Most people are stand up people until they owe you money.
That's why most businesses link a tab to your credit card details, for their own protection. At the end of a month you then pay the tab with DD/etc.
Of course, you could set a tab up and then cancel the card, but doing that amounts to theft and is probably beyond the moral limit for most people.I'm not trying to be mean, but have you worked retail?
You can't DD if there are no funds in the account.
And there is trust. How often is your order correct? Do you trust teenagers making minimum wage with multiple tasks to juggle to bill you properly? Especially now you only get billed once a month?
Seems likely, and I look forward to it. I haven't had a suitable way of handling coins for decades. My latest wallet has no provision for notes either, so I'm very close now.
Once we have immediate transfers and simple and free ways of making transactions for very small businesses (even garage sales etc), and facility for kids too, then that's one aspect of my life improved.I saw a bank ad the other day where a guy paid a bill then somehow split the payment with his friends. Dunno how that works!!?? Small steps I think… I really don't want to wait for 2040.
One person pays the total, the others simply transfer the share into the payers account. This works fine if they are all with the same bank, but if not the transactions still take the normal 3 business days, which hopefully will be real-time by the end of this year — yay!
That's what my friends and I do. It's inconvenient but not that big a deal to receive the money a few days later. Look forward to real-time transactions though!
This payments system btw is called NPP, or the new payments platform. You can see who have signed up for it here, though it's pretty much everybody; most credit unions fall under CUSCAL and building societies under ASL.
http://www.apca.com.au/about-payments/future-of-payments/new…
Definitely a game changer - currently SWIFT/RTGS is the fastest transfer method, that though can take up to a couple of hours depending on how quickly the sending and receiving bank process it. Banks usually charge a lot to process a SWIFT, and SWIFT AUD transfers also can't be processed on weekends. NPP transfers will be cheap and available 24/7.
Details like maximum transfer limits are not yet decided; it would be great to not have to carry around a cheque book for a house deposit on the weekend. Early days yet though, be very surprised given the scale of the project if this actually rolls out in 2017
i wana do a lot with cash.. i wana receive my rent in cash, receive bonuses in cash, pay discounted rate in cash, fk the taxes.. cash is the bomb..
Better get a bitcoin wallet then.
I only pay with cash or will consider good old fashioned barter. Never had a credit card never had a loan never had a licence. Debit only online if I absolutely must. Cash only. I always carry at least $500 on me just in case. No smartphone or tablet either. Cheap and cheerful ZTE throwaway prefer face to face. No online social media presence. You don't pay with cash everything you buy is tracked. How often you buy. What you buy. If what you buy changes according to the month or to the weather. Everything is onsold and traceable.
You try and get rid of it an alt currency will be created and yes it will be offline. Like:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2258711/Grime-wave-S…
Can we meet? I have some tin foil for sale…
In all seriousness I understand what you say. The process is quite sophisticated in the US, with places like Target even emailing personalised catalogues that look like regular catalogues except with extra pages added in. The classic case was if you bought pre-pregnancy vitamins they started to advertise all the nursery furniture.
I don't think we have come that far in Australia yet, but it will happen.
'I don't think we have come that far in Australia yet'
I thought you'd buy a
programaccess to an online portal from someone likeIBM or Oraclea database software vendor for that.After seeing the success of Facebook, I would think most retailers think of data from rewards cards as an additional revenue stream.
I can't see an engineering reason why you couldn't do the same with bank/credit card transactions.
Very cool.
+1 just for the no social media alone!
"No online social media presence."
Wouldn't ozbargain forums count as social media?
OzB has elements of social media, but it is a forum of a specific interest (bargain hunting). Just a big forum! But no different from a forum about plumbing or pilots.
Social media, i think, is a general site with no focus and no special knowledge required. (Facebook, Twitter, instagram etc) (Idiots with tablets)
By 2040 money based on the boring British Royalty meme will be gone. There will only be glorious Dogecoin.
Very currency. Much digital. So money.
Cash has one distinct advantage over electronic banking: it's extremely difficult to confiscate remotely. Take for example the current plight of the average Greek citizen. Come Monday there's a very real possibility their bank accounts will be frozen with only minimal withdrawals allowed per day. ATMs will close. Anyone sitting on a pile of physical Euro banknotes is sitting pretty.
Cash can of course be remotely devalued by a government by just chopping a few zeroes off current bank notes and printing new editions. See hyperinflation throughout history. This doesn't apply to Greece (coming soon) and Cyprus (already experienced) where the threat was to abolish the worthwhile currency and replace it with something worthless. That's where physical precious metals are king. Impossible to devalue.
'That's where physical precious metals are king. Impossible to devalue.'
Western rare earth mineral miners might have a different opinion :p
Rare earths were never rare nor particularly valuable, and certainly not classified as a precious metal.
Their value as a commodity is relatively modern compared to gold and silver. Even platinum was discarded by Spanish miners in South America as they saw it as an impurity in silver.
government can repossess precious metals as well and replace them with printed notes that lose value the more of them they print
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_ActImpossible to devalue.
When the whole system crashes, government will simply make trading in gold, etc. illegal - just as they made firearms illegal. Or at the very least, after an initial amnesty hand-in period, the entity government licenses to cash in precious metals, will then be required by law to demand you provide them with documentation where it came from.
The last person in the line has to cash it somehow to get its 'value'. If they can't do that legally, then it's instantly worthless to everyone along the transaction line.
Yep im sure this will work in areas that dont have any phone/data reception and no fixed lines either (which is still the majority of the outback)
I was able to pay by credit card for purchases onboard an aircraft at 30000 feet. I think they'll figure out a way to do it in the outback.
Please elaborate on this proposed wizardry.
An impression of the credit card is taken but the actual billing back to the bank is only done when the terminal is synced on the ground. The airline isn't concerned about card fraud as the amounts involved in purchasing a sandwich and drink are small.
For in flight duty free purchases the airline has your full details anyway and can chase up the debt.
@Cluster: I was referring to the "in the outback" part from previous commenter, but cheers for your response :)
Not sure if you're implying that you used your phone, given the context of the statement. But if so consider this, thats only 10km. You were likely within 30-40km of a cellular tower. An average cell tower can serve up to 70km.
The outback - I've driven 300km+ without a cellular signal on the same trip. They'd need to add 5 towers along that route to provide reliable coverage. at a cost of probably a few million each. Multiply that by all the dark spots in the outback and it would likely cost billions. for what really amounts to the benefit of just a few percentage points of the population. No one's going to endorse that.
Satellites are constantly getting lighter hence cheaper.
Today you could set up a metro call centre and call via sat phones to verify the transaction.
That said, most EFT transactions I process are approved instantly and processed after the transaction.
You do realize the cost of a sat call will far exceed any cost gained by having eftpos right? thats providing you can get a signal and connect, with my sat phone you need to be standing in the middle of the road on 1 leg whilst singing for it to make a semi decent connection, and not move from that spot.
That being said, many settlements are connected via microwave links these days, rather then tower hopping or fibre, far cheaper and easier, but even then that doesnt cover everywhere and everyone.
I'm aware that there are and will be other solutions. I was merely pointing out why Cellular was not one of them.
Why do people think that phone/sat coverage/connection will be required for all cashless tx? For small amounts where cash would otherwise be used, a simple bluetooth/wifi connection will all that is required to tx from your electronic wallet to mine (probably even an account number and pin code will suffice). Ie you transfer from your "bank" to your electronic wallet sometime when you have coverage (replacing going to the ATM), then you can spend anytime, anywhere. For large tx over a set limit, in our current system, you would need to head to a bank to get the cash or deposit it afterwards. Finding coverage is far easier than finding a bank I think you'd agree?
Oh, when you put it like that it's just so simple!
Except the technology doesn't exist. Hell it may never exist. How does one prevent you from copying money? If it's just a digital file or digital signature, then whats to stop people from copying it much like you would an mp3? How would one validate the value of that file? When you went to deposit that file, how would the bank know it was not simply created by you? or that it was a valid transaction.
The Music/Movie industry has spent more than 15 years trying to develop technology to prevent people from making copies of a file or sharing that file without permission. They haven't had any luck getting that done and they have billions in losses that encourages them to find a solution.
Thanks for the google link. Turns out though I've just spent the last 13 weeks in University studying cryptography so I already have a fairly in-depth understanding of encryption and the services it provides. But ya know, it's possible you do this for a living and know something I don't?
So how do you propose to cryptographically solve the problem of duplication? This is a 4-way transaction. The value needs to make it from A -> B -> C -> D without breaking the encryption for it to be considered a secure transaction that has definitely not been modified and the cryptographic keys used for the encryption would be those of A and D. But theres no live connection between A-> B and C-> D. This means, that the value needs to be modifiable by A. Doesn't help if you have a single value of 20$ but want to buy something thats a 1.50$. You'd need to send the whole 20$. And if there was a live connection, it would make more sense to send from A -> D at the request of B.
But wait, if that means the value is modifiable, that means it is decrypted/alterable/copyable by the person holding on to the value. So whats to stop an asshole like B to send the value to C, but keeping a copy. Then going back to the bank and depositing it. Now B has a copy. C has a copy. Maybe the banks have a way to ensure that a unit is not duplicated. As in, Bank D checks Bank A and says 'Hey, does someone have this in the bank?' But then what happens if Bank F, L, and M all get copies. Do they check every bank for a copy? Maybe so.
But what if the asshole B does it before C deposits it. He now has his money still, and whatever he purchased. Maybe he used a fake ID/info to make the account. He just drove away with a new car. Woop woop. how difficult is it going to persecute this? Maybe B says that key/value was stolen from him. Never gave it to any one.
I see a whole lot of problems that I don't see solved with a simple link to a google encryption search.
There's a reason bitcoin and the likes use a blockchain. It's all cryptographically done but theres no way to verify transactions without it. The blockchain is like the bank in the above scenario. No blockchain means no verification.
@geoffellis: Yes, I simplified a teensy bit. Sure there are issues, but we're talking a quarter of a century away. Think back to what technology we had in
19851990…Yes and I think it's far more likely that there will be a more ubiquitous data network present by 2040 - than is likely to solve a fundamental problem like above. It won't be multimillion dollar cellular towers placed every 50-100km though
What would be the value of stealing from yourself? Its a bit like taking paper money out of your own wallet, or putting your $20 notes on the photocopier, lol.
However I see you've done 13 weeks on crypto, so you are the expert and ANZ are stupid.
Are you illiterate? Or just an idiot? It doesn't sound like you understood anything I've said.
A. You aren't stealing from yourself - You'd be essentially making money. Except in this case instead of a photocopier, you'd actually have a money printing machine. It wouldn't be fake - it would be an exact copy. Not distinguishable between 1 or the other. Kinda like how when you copy/paste on a computer you suddenly and an EXACT copy of the two files. No difference whatsoever.
B. How the (profanity) did ANZ come into this? Or a comparison between us?? We're discussing THEORETICAL technologies. ANZ doesn't have this technology. No one does. So yes I've done 13 weeks on crypto. And in this conversation I might as well be an "expert". In this case I am explaining why this technology is not feasible. There are underlying issues with how cryptography works. This has nothing to do with ANZ because ANZ doesn't offer this service/technology?? So how are they stupid exactly??
Your ignorance is (profanity) astounding!
Cash is King is in the context of working capital, not from the daily transactional point of view. On the contrast, cash is less desirable ( for law-biding business of course, as the transactional fee imposed by bank well worth the less hassle to deal with cash)
But is it worth ~1.25% of your gross take?
https://www.commbank.com.au/business/merchant-services/eftpo…
Many small businesses I know bring in ~$500k gross each year. Do you think they like an extra $5k expense?
No, I don't think they like the costs( or any costs at all) However,the costs of dealing with cash only cannot be underestimated. I don't have any statistics to quote ATM,but, generally thinking about staff time to count the cash during and after sale, at End of Day reconciliation, possible fake notes, staff stealing petty cash, lost/damaged notes, security arrangement of cash transportation, possible robbery if the business is known to carry a fair amount of cash, natural disasters like fire/flooding/storms .. of course the owner can take the risks and pocket the 'savings' however just like insurance , one doesn't use it every year but when in need, the benefits normally offset the costs, and one has the peace of mind all times knowing the 'cash' is protected.
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I almost wish it was like that now.
I try to limit the amount of cash I carry on me and find it annoying when I go somewhere that doesn't take cards.
I guess for p2p transactions they are thinking there will be instant electronic transfers between bank accounts? I would love to see that.