Was at a suburban Pharmacy and saw this job ad.
I'm pretty sure this is illegal and if so, who do I complain to?
Edit- the section I'm concerned about btw is "junior only, Mature Age need not apply"
What you reckon?
Is This Job Ad illegal?
SupeNintendoChalmers on 09/02/2015 - 15:55
Last edited 09/02/2015 - 16:21
Last edited 09/02/2015 - 16:21
Poll Options
- 101Yes, It'll illegal, complain to relevant authorities.
- 5Yes, It'll illegal, complain to pharmacy
- 133No, none of your business.
Comments
cough Wizard Pharmacy
what's wrong with it ? Can't see anything wrong.
"junior only, Mature Age need not apply"
It's a junior role. With junior wages.
yeh exactly. Nothing wrong with it.
an older person can work in a junior role.
It's a junior role. With junior wages.
Its discriminatory…that's what it is. Be empowered. Know your rights.
@Jar Jar Binks: non-junior can't apply for a junior position.
Not discriminatory at all. Get over it.
@travelwiz: What is your definition of junior?
15-16 only?
That's not how the law defines junior. You cannot specify a specific age, that is discriminatory.
I don't think you are understanding, Jar Jar Binks.
For example, an office wants to hire a junior receptionist. The role is created because they want a high school leaver or someone who has just finished high school - to answer the telephones and take messages. It is an entry level role into the firm or company. This means that they would hire anyone up to 21 years of age. So that they can pay them junior wages or award wage Band 1. It will be a lower paid job. It's always based on experience so you can ask for more after your probationary period. Usually 3 months.
Based on years of experience, you could later apply for corporate receptionist roles, and be paid more (Band 3 or 4 maybe), then - maybe become a PA when you've mastered your role or even EA later on). It's called progression, promotion or whatever you like.
Do you understand? It is the lowest paid role in the company or firm, as well as any other junior roles, junior clerk, junior administration assistant, junior accounts person etc.
Upon applying for roles, or junior roles, you would be told of your job description or duties to perform. Junior roles are not that hard! Hence the low pay and hence people go to uni or study further to gain knowledge and skills/experience so that they can learn and get better. Then apply for better paying jobs!
Hope that helps.
Sorry to cut in like that travelwiz lol
It is 100% discriminatory, please update your knowledge
HR info:
Age is a specific ground for discrimination under State legislation but the National Committees on Discrimination, Employment and Occupation (NCDEO) will hear complaints of age discrimination in employment. Age discrimination is a denial of equal employment opportunities as it makes assumptions based on chronological age. Specifying a particular age requirement involves the stereotyping of people according to their age. Age can be associated with assumptions about maturity, experience, physical condition and financial status.
http://workplaceinfo.com.au/recruitment/pre-employment/check…
Also investigated by:
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/age-discriminationPLUS also adverse action to not hire based on age under the Fair Work Act 2009, just sayin'.
There's a smart way to deal with it and there's a dumb way, then there's full retard. This business owner is full retard. Just opening themselves up for claims…
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/woolworths-ordere…
. It is an entry level role into the firm or company. This means that they would hire anyone up to 21 years of age.
I disagree, a junior receptionist is just that, a beginner role for a receptionist. It's going to be boring, basic work that probably isn't going to push your mental capacity. However, it's a stepping stone for being an experienced receptionist.
Someone who spends 30 years in the army, gets re-qualified, then applies to be a receptionist would have a junior receptionist position.
TLDR: Junior = menial work
@Davo1111: junior doesn't have to mean ALL menial work.
1000's of kids work as junior at the likes of McDonald part time from when they are 14 or 15.
Future employers like to see the likes of McDonalds on resumes.
@Jar Jar Binks: what would you prefer a traineeship or internship where there is no pay at all, just like work experience & at the end of it, they get paid junior wages no matter what their age.
Seriously.
If you were 21 in a junior role, you would receive an award wage rate. That's why we have Awards. Workers can't be exploited. It wouldn't be fair if an employer underpaid you. That's why we have Fairwork Australia and the Fairwork Commission.
The OP should also know that employers won't say you are too old for the role. They would only tell you that they have found someone else more suitable for the role - which they are allowed to say. If they even get back to you.
It is important as a jobseeker to ask questions, and you can ask/discuss about salary/wages at the interview.
You guys are confusing the different meanings of junior.
Junior - someone who is under age, i.e. talking about their age
Junior - someone who is less skilled, experienced, or able. i.e. talking about their capability
If it helps, from wiktionary:
"Adjective[edit]
- (comparable) Low in rank; having a subordinate role, job, or situation.
- Belonging to a younger person, or an earlier time of life."So you can hire a senior (aka an old person) into a junior role, or you can hire a junior (aka a young person) into a senior role.
It is true that hiring a junior, in either sense of the word, means you can pay them less. However specifically hiring a junior in the latter sense is legal. Specifically hiring a junior in the former sense can get you into trouble with age discrimination laws (although I'm not sure if the laws apply in this case).
Not in all awards (example building and construction), junior wages are not a blanket "thing". Different awards have different junior percentages and rules (normally based on corresponding adult rate.) Some have junior rates up to 20YO, others stop at 17.
There are 122 awards + State system in WA, cannot seriously have blanket rule to cover every industry possible. Trust me, used to be a business coach, worst thing you can do is start assuming everything.
@Jar Jar Binks: Its not discriminatory. If it said only asians need to apply then it might be. but no.. if they prefer juniors.. so be it.
@Jar Jar Binks: Actually you can if it is to assist a disadvantaged group. Its called positive discrimination. With youth unemployment at all time highs, over 20% in some areas, this job advert just about fits that purpose.
@travelwiz:
A simple to way to test if it discriminatory is that you replace "junior" with "asian" "black" "white" "females" "males".Does it offend you then? If it does then its probably discrimination.
@travelwiz: It is wrong. You cannot state the preferred age for the job unless you advertise it as a junior role. the add is total discrimination. And again if its a junior role mature applicants are allowed to apply.
Yes, mature applicants can apply but they will get knocked back almost immediately.
Congratulations you have just wasted your time as well as the employers time.
OP can you elaborate on which parts of the adverts are concerning to you?
Is it the 'mature age need not apply' part? I could guess a few things that may upset people but can't tell which part you're directly talking about.
"Mature age need not apply"
The comment is illegal and falls under age discrimination. The advertiser has a preconceived notion that someone with Mature Age cannot take on a Junior role. By law, the employer should only be concerned about an individuals ability to perform the job and not his/her Age, Gender, Religious Belief, Race or Origins.
The advertiser should be reported to authorities. If it is in NSW, NSW Fair Trading should be emailed a copy of this advert.
shrug seems similar to most fast food chains, just not spelled out explicitly?
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/complaints/complaint-guides/m…
Note the first step is to address it directly with the people involved, in which case they will use some white-out on the ad and continue the same policy most likely.
Yes, this is absolutely illegal.
http://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/mature-workers-4-…
Only allowing a certain age bracket to apply, and specifically stating that "mature age" applicants are not welcome is clearly discriminatory.
There are details at the following link re how to submit a complaint:
http://www.humanrights.gov.au/publications/mature-workers-3-…
no you can advertise for juniors. It's not a crime.
If what you are trying to say was true, they have to go thru the motions of reject everyone over a certain age.
@travelwiz, rejecting someone based on their age is also considered discrimination and is illegal.
not if it's for a junior position.
Why do you think we have aged based awards !!!
So r u saying these awards are not legit ?
Please get over it.
You sound like a dodgy law student.
travelwiz is right. Adults have to receive an award wage - and you can still get more based on experience (banding). If you are over 18, you don't want a junior role! (Although they would have to pay you more). It's just a couple of hours after school doing some vaccumning of the pharmacy etc. See the ad? It's only for a few hours a week.
If you enquire within, the owner or pharmacist will tell you - you are not suitable for a junior role! Besides, you need more than 6 hours work a week to pay your bills these days!
I'm all for teenagers having jobs after school. It makes them more social, confident and work harder. Plus, teaches them the value of $10. A whole hour's hard work!
For further advice, you should speak to an acredited specialist on Industrial Law.
So you're saying that its ok for this employer to advertise to he only wants 15-16 years olds because:
if you are over 18, you don't want a junior role!
says who? There are lots of people out there who are desperate to get jobs or looking for a second job.
you are not suitable for a junior role!
Because I'm 17? I'm pretty sure that's not what the law says
Besides, you need more than 6 hours work a week to pay your bills these days!
Not if its a second job.
Lots of assumptions in your comment.
You can go into the pharmacy and enquire about the role… Who knew you were 17?
Good luck!
Yes you can put "Juniors preferred" on the ad. However actually putting an age range is actually illegal.
Not so clear cut as they fail to mention that in certain circumstances, under the Antidiscrimination Act, you can "positively discriminate". In this case they allow businesses to pay lower wages to young people (now that's age discrimination right there) as a way to encourage youth employment. Who would hire a 16 year old if you could get a mature experienced person to work for the same money.
Obviously they are only willing to pay junior wages for that position. Everyone starts somewhere and it is always on a lower wage.
Also how is a 15yo going to have 3 years experience?
Considering the legal age to be hired is ~15.
They're 2 different ads…
Oh - well that now makes sense.
think you can start work at 14, so 14, 15, 16.
In Australia the youngest you can work is 14 years of age.
This is incorrect, at least in NSW. Younger than 14 years there are additional requirements for parental approval and some roles that are excluded, but it is legal. However, wages are no cheaper so it makes sense to get older kids if you would be paying a 12yro the same.
Facepalm - Still incorrect but getting there…
Parental authorization only applicable if you're in VIC and QLD, between 13 - 15YO working a job.
Everyone else has different degrees of restrictions, some just restrict job roles and hours. In NSW there is actually no restriction based on age.
ALL STATES: need to be school leaver as defined by state law before you can work during school hours.
http://www.fairwork.gov.au/find-help-for/young-workers-and-s…
Its illegal..unless the employer has applied for a temporary exemption from the Equal Opportunity Act 2010. Unlikely, so Lodge a complaint here
of course you can apply for a junior. It's written into many awards. Look at fast food outlets like Maccas. They employ heaps of juniors & have to get rid of them when they turn 18 or whatever the award says is a senior.
the minimum number of casual hours is 4 afaik.
actually minimum hours is 2.
Depends on the award, doesn't it? I am pretty sure the food/hospitality award says 3 hours.
yes depends on the award.
Minimum hours taken from http://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-wo… (for employees of contract cleaning services but i assume the same applies)
The table below shows the minimum hours of work and payment, that a part-time or casual employee must be given.
Cleaning area Minimum hours Minimum payment
Where 1 employee is working at a small stand-alone location with a cleaning area of 300 square meters or less (and it is not possible for a longer shift to be worked across 2 or more locations).
1 hour 1 hour
Working at a location with a total cleaning area of up to 2000 square meters. 2 hours in a row 2 hours
Working at a location with a total cleaning area of between 2000 - 5000 square meters. 3 hours in a row 3 hours
Working at a location with a total cleaning area of more than 5000 square meters. 4 hours in a row 4 hours
Illegal… Discrimination on the grounds of age.
Indigenous agencies get away with it all the time.
Good luck changing the world.Totally illegal
but seriously, people have better things to do than picking on a local pharmacy that is about to go bust.Unless you're someone who is desperately looking for a job and is being discriminated against because of your age.
… Unless you're someone who is looking for free money
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/woolworths-ordere…
Just because the courts make a ruling, doesn't mean they are right - they get it wrong too.
They're still not going to hire you if they want a junior no matter what the ad says.
Well they could've just put it up as "open to all ages".
But they would probably reject all applicants who are mature aged anyway.
So I guess they're "helping" by just letting the mature aged people know that it's unnecessary to apply to start with.It is legal to advertise for and employ a 'junior' and pay them at junior rates, as long as they are under the age of 21
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/aa1977204/…
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/aa1977204/…
WUT.
Your sources are completely irrelevant to what you're saying:
49ZYB Discrimination against applicants and employees
(1) It is unlawful for an employer to discriminate against a person on the ground of age:
(b) in determining who should be offered employment,Section 49ZYI of the Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 gives exemptions to certain requirements of Section 49ZYB of the Act relating to discrimination based on the grounds of age, for employment of persons or employees under 21 years of age. Thus you can mention the job is only suited for junior employees under 21YO, BUT still in breach by saying preferred 15-16 years of age as this employer has done.
The legality of paying someone junior rates is a separate issue, dealt with under respective Modern Awards or Agreements under Federal Law (Fair Work Act 2009 or relevant WA state awards [if in WA]).
Boom.
Hey boom, stop making up law. The age discrimination laws don't apply to ads for staff under 21. You can prefer whatever age you like. The employer hasn't expressed a preference, merely told the 15 year old it suits
How is saying "x age need not apply" NOT expressing a preference?
Also even if what you say is true, mature age can easily be interpreted as "over 18"…
Double facepalm… my name is not Boom…
I'm not making up law, you just quoted two sections you misinterpreted and proceeded to go off on another tangent afterwards. You're the one making things up.
What i'm saying is your exemption does not apply if someone was taking them to court in NSW (say, a 20YO) since they didn't get the job and believes it's discriminatory as they believe the employer limited it specifically to 15-16 YO. Exception allows you to say you want a junior under 21YO, nothing more.
However for anyone else, don't quote me, I don't specialise in NSW state legislation. This is merely my interpretation of these two but seems in line with examples I could find.
For example, this is a good way to utilise the exemption:
https://www.facebook.com/EurobodallaShireCouncil/posts/45166…Do you have trouble understanding English or what? Re-read the ad. If it still doesn't make sense, read my reply above.
The problem is not in the words "Suit 15-16 years of age". No one is claiming this, so either you are making up a strawman or you just fail to comprehend.
The problem is with these words:
"Junior only, mature age need not apply".Now if you are still having problems, I recommend you look up the words "only" in a dictionary. Also look up "mature age" and the phrase "need not apply".
@saintmagician0: You did say the employer prefers 15 year olds. Which it clearly hasnt said. But back to the issue, the links are that it is not age discrimination to advertise for a staffer under 21. There is no problem with the problem you have. The employer is not wanting a mature age. They want a junior. No discrimination.
I think you're mixing up the definitions within the ad.
"Junior" in this advertisement refers to the position, you're at the bottom of the hierarchy. For example, an "office junior" or "junior engineer" is just the lowest person within the office, supervised by an experienced person.
"mature age need not apply" means that they're discriminating on age, which is illegal.
Check again, Junior means under 21
I'll let you in on a little secret of the English language - some words can (GASP) have multiple meanings.
@grasstown:
Either meaning in this case could be correct.If the word 'junior' refers to the seniority of the position, then only the second part of that sentence is a problem. If the word 'junior' refers to the age, then both parts of the sentence is a problem.
Therefore, regardless of the meaning the author intended, the sentence as a whole is problematic. So there's really no point arguing over which meaning the author intended, but if it bothers you very much, I recommend some background reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity
It's illegal.
Most places when hiring for a position like this only consider juniors as the pay can be 50% of that of someone aged 21+, however they are not allowed to explicitly state this.
Many break these laws by never considering someone older, but don't normally put in in print.
the phrase 'Junior position' refers to the wages, prestige etc., anyone is (legally) able to apply, however should not expect to be climbing the corporate ladder any time soon.
Illustrates the stupidity of the law. Rather than wasting mature applicants' time, the pharmacy was up-front in telling them not to bother. Better for everybody.
To be honest, if I was a job seeker, I would rather the employer be upfront and state what they're after exactly. Saves me from wasting time, writing a resume/CV and waiting for a response from a company that knows they dont want me.
So what if you end up getting an interview, revealing your age, you'll just get a 5min interview and never hear from them again, waste of everyones time.I recently saw an ad that said,
asians/indians/africans need not apply
So the employer is being upfront that he only wants Caucasians working for him. If we follow your reasoning that guy needs to be lauded for being so upfront.
So it wasn't the local servo then….
What was the advert for?
Thanks for exaggerating for me. Racial discrimination is a whole diff level imo. Also, in case you're wondering, no I dont support any kind of discrimination. Thinking about it from another way, I would rather see the true side of the company, including their culture and ethics before I waste any of time on them.
So by your reasoning, vague job ads with very general criterias and vague info on what the job is/requires is are the ones that should be lauded for. Or maybe job ads where they say "anyone can apply" and leave you with high hopes, but they already know they dont want you.
Yeah, you are right in that being upfront about what you want is a good thing.
However there are some traits that we have decided employers are not allowed to select for. In this case, the presence of the criteria on ads (which is inherently good, because clear criteria is good) is a symptom of something which is bad (illegal discrimination).
I think age discrimination in the young bracket is something people think about / care about / etc. less. However the same thing for old people is a big deal - e.g. you may have a role (regardless of whether the role is junior or senior), but you'd rather hire a young energetic person in their 20s rather than an equally suitable person in their 50s - in those cases, we've decided it's 'unfair' for the old people. But in general I think age discrimination tends to invoke less strong feelings in people than say, racial discrimination or sexual orientation discrimination ("gays need not apply")
15 years old with 3 years experience needed?
what waterlogged turnip wrote.
how does this work? it may be an offence to reject an applicant based on age, but is it an offence to display an ad stating "junior only, mature age need not apply"?
Ellen: “Well, he’s been out of work for close to seven years.”
Clark: “In seven years, he couldn’t find a job?”
Ellen: “Catherine says he’s been holding out for a management position.”
I worked in a role the same as this in a pharmacy when I was 16. It was a great start in the workforce, and gave me the skills to continue working throughout high school and uni.
If we turn into an annoying, politically correct society where you can't hire a junior the losers will be kids looking for experience.
Wrong, if we lived in a politically correct world people would hire kids to help them in the first place rather than just employing them for 3-4years because it's cheaper and then replacing them with newer kids to save 30% less wages.
These jobs are normally things like cleaning as shown above. I really doubt you're going to be learning much from that. At best you'll get a good reference but then again it's going to be a reference for cleaner or customer service which is hardly going to land you a management position.Also I think it's harder for people over 60 to find work than kids 15-25.
Hahahahaha! You sir are a moron.
First and foremost, ask every young new manager in training at Woolworths, McDonalds etc and I'll bet my bottom dollar they got there by progressing after school from their remedial checkout chick position. There is definitely progression for those with initiative. But more importantly, what you "learn" from that basic position isn't a quantifiable skill. It's a work ethic. How to take direction. How to prioritise tasks. All stepping stones for any career. And this is demonstrated by the fact that an employer would choose an 18 year old with 3-4 years of experience than one with none at all, any day of the week! Regardless of field!
And I challenge you to find ANY electorate in this country with a higher rate of unemployment than the youth bracket (18-25). Your assertion is wrong.
Your first point about management always coming from within the company is false. I use to work at fast food place as a kid and 2/3 of management were hired from outside the company that had studied.
- Secondly discipline isn't taught at work, it's taught by family and by having pride in yourself to do a good job rather than take the easy route.
- How to take direction (especially bad direction) sure, I'll give you that.
- Prioritise tasks? no, that's mental capacity.
- BTW this flyer demonstrates that management would rather pay someone who costs less i.e. 15year old than someone with experience
Also in the youth bracket people don't have responsibilities generally like mortgages, they aren't forced into employment. I can hardly blame them. I remember when I was earning less than $8 an hour at KFC.
Personally I like that they are being honest and specific and not hiding what they want. Saves people who are not the type they want from wasting their time and applying IMO.
I used to hire for a retailer and wouldn't be specific in my ads, but guess what, I knew the age range I was prepared to pay for and thats the only ones I hired.
My local pharmacy hires a junior to work on Thursday evenings to vaccumn the pharmacy and do odd cleaning jobs.
Just a bit of extra money for school kids.