Is Apple Actually Rip-Off?

p1 ama on 19/11/2013 - 19:28

This is a topic that comes up time and time again with both sides saying that they are right. However, I wouldn't mind a proper discussion on the topic, given that there are quite a number of people who are staunchly for or against Apple on this forum.

I've done a bit of research and this is what I've (personally) found. In the desktop market, Apple has two offerings, the iMac and Mac Mini. The Mac Pro also features here, but it's so terribly bad value that it doesn't really warrant inclusion here.

Let's look at the 21.5" iMac.

One thing to note here is that Apple charges exhorbitant prices for upgrades. E.g. $240 for a 250GB SSD and you lose your 1TB hard drive. So the more you upgrade the iMac, the more disproportionately expensive it becomes. But let's look at the base config.

  • 2.7 GHz Core i5
  • 8GB RAM
  • 1TB 5400rpm HDD
  • Intel Iris Pro Graphics
  • Monitor, Keyboard/Mouse, OS included
  • $1599

So my aim is to build a similar or better computer out of parts for less, this is what I could do, trying to match the iMac as much as possible:

  • Fractal Design Define Mini - $129
  • Corsair VS450 - $55
  • ASUS B85M-G - $89
  • Intel Core i5 4670 - $245
  • 1TB Seagate Barracuda - $67
  • Gigabyte Radeon HD7770- $99
  • ASUS PB248Q 24in IPS - $429
  • Logitech MK520 - $59
  • Total - $1172

Assembly and OS should be a maximum of $200. So it comes down nearly $300 cheaper than the Apple alternative. A similar story is told when we look at other models.

This is despite us trying to counter the claims Apple supporters make, e.g. better monitor quality…etc. Here we chose an ASUS PB series IPS screen as well as discrete graphics which will run circles around the Iris Pro graphics.

So what we end up here is an Apple tax of $300. In your opinion, what do you get for this $300 and is it worth it?

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Comments

      • ProspectiveDarkness on 24/11/2013 - 16:27

        I was a bit like that. W8 is faster and feels a bit more modern, but the UI duality is still annoying (considering I use one live tile, and one Metro app regularly on my desktop, it just doesn't seem necessary… but I'm more accustomed to it now)

        • theguyrules on 24/11/2013 - 17:17

          Yeah, I wouldn't really want to go back to Windows 7. I could, but I don't want to.

  • ethereal88 on 24/11/2013 - 17:04

    Eh, on second though I think I'll just repurpose some parts for a celeron ghetto box. Carry on, irregardless! No complaints with 8.1 here.

  • oztonyau on 24/11/2013 - 22:26

    Apple ripping off Australian Taxpayers?
    Sorry to take the discussion on a different tack, but there is another aspect of Apple that could be considered a 'rip off'; its payment of tax to our government, I.e. us. Apparently Apple pays only 2% tax outside the USA.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20197710
    So more of our money goes overseas, and our Government either has less money to spend on us, or must raise more in tax from us, or both. As a consequence we Australians are worse off.

    • ThadtheChad on 24/11/2013 - 23:21

      Google is a far worse culprit that Apple.

      $74K in 2011 vs $94 million paid by Apple.
      http://delimiter.com.au/2012/11/23/australian-govt-pledges-a…
      http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/03/google-australia-1bn-in-r…

      So more of our money goes overseas, and our Government either has less money to spend on us, or must raise more in tax from us, or both.

      Playing the devil's advocate here so please don't be offended. A nation that has a fledgling ICT and telecomms industry (as compared to it's peers in Europe or US; or even SE-Asia)needs to offer some incentive for growth. Things like tax-exempt special economic zones etc. AFAIK, there is precious little in that regard over here (there is a whole bunch for the mining industry but screw those guys) the work-force and heavy lifting is done elsewhere.

      ATO/Aus govt needs to get their sh1t together and stop QQ-ing.

  • morpheu on 24/11/2013 - 22:29
    +1

    to answer original question "is Apple a ripoff?" i would say no, although some of those upgrades are really borderline compared to pc parts, it's a premium product with the premium pricetag, put another way, you can't blame Apple for being overpriced anymore than blaming Ferrari/Lambo/Bugatti for charging a small fortune for one of their supercars!

  • vodanh on 25/11/2013 - 12:48

    yep, depend on how you look at it,

    you see those Dell R7/R8 server box that goes for 17k-25k+,

    if you look at a Mac Pro, their spec may be the same but they are server grade system, not a PC system,
    it's like you buying a window server to use as your PC,

    hence Apple's RAM are not sell at local retail store, but you have to get those Server RAM for it to work,

  • stustu242 on 25/11/2013 - 23:45
    +1

    This topic has an obvious answer. If you want a computer to play games on, sure grab a PC. But for most other purposes an apple computer is a far better choice for 95% of the population. Apple has:
    an easy to use/learn to use operating system
    MacBooks couldn't be better i swear. (other than the speed of the computer)
    MacBooks are beautifully made, ready to run. have a operating system with a bunch of great software, iMovie, iPhoto, pages, keynote, numbers, garageband etc.

    Look under your desk and look at the back end of your PC. 20 bloody wires coming out with coloured flashing lights and shit that looks like a big mess. Now look at a macbook/iMac. Simple to use, set up, and learn. And has been designed in a beautiful way.

    DLL errors, viruses, blue screens, shit, shit and more shit comes with PCs. You won't get this with an apple computer. I have a desktop $1000 gaming PC that I use for gaming, and a macbook with i use for EVERYTHING else.

    The relatively new App Store feature for OSX is great for getting software from a trusted source.

    Trust me, the price is well worth it, and i conclude that apple is a better choice than a home built PC/bought PC.

    I nearly forgot to mention, OSX takes full advantage of the trackpad with touch gestures which couldn't be more convenient.

    Argument over guys?

    • p1 ama on 26/11/2013 - 09:11

      This topic has an obvious answer.

      No it doesn't otherwise we wouldn't have four pages of discussion.

      But for most other purposes an apple computer is a far better choice for 95% of the population.

      Then why does Windows have such a large market share?

      an easy to use/learn to use operating system

      Windows isn't exactly hard to learn either, but this is a moot argument, 95% of people who use computers are competent in the OS they are using.

      MacBooks are beautifully made, ready to run. have a operating system with a bunch of great software, iMovie, iPhoto, pages, keynote, numbers, garageband etc.

      Beautifully made in your eyes, that is a subjective argument, not everyone thinks they are good looking nor does everyone want a computer that is good looking. Software is also a pretty moot argument as there are a bunch of free and open source software that do the same tasks. Microsoft sells Office 2013 for $15 for home users, which will blow pages, keynote and numbers out of the water.

      Look under your desk and look at the back end of your PC. 20 bloody wires coming out with coloured flashing lights and shit that looks like a big mess. Now look at a macbook/iMac. Simple to use, set up, and learn. And has been designed in a beautiful way.

      The only wire I will save by going Mac is the DVI cable going to my monitor, what other cable does a PC need that an iMac doesn't need?

      DLL errors, viruses, blue screens, shit, shit and more shit comes with PCs. You won't get this with an apple computer. I have a desktop $1000 gaming PC that I use for gaming, and a macbook with i use for EVERYTHING else.

      If you have DLL errors, viruses, blue screens and "shit", then you're not doing it right, Windows is nowhere near as unstable as you might like to think. Windows 7 is rock solid, Windows 8 is pretty much just as good. I've had no issues on both OSes.

      The relatively new App Store feature for OSX is great for getting software from a trusted source.

      I agree, that might be a genuine benefit of OSX, but I'm not sure how many useful apps are actually on the app store.

      I nearly forgot to mention, OSX takes full advantage of the trackpad with touch gestures which couldn't be more convenient.

      So does Windows 8. But I agree, Mac trackpads are generally known to be pretty good, but this is irrelevant for desktops.

      Trust me, the price is well worth it, and i conclude that apple is a better choice than a home built PC/bought PC.

      Hmmm, this is a discussion, so it's founded on logical arguments rather than "trust me", but okay.

      Argument over guys?

      No, it's been going for a while now and will keep going.

      • stustu242 on 26/11/2013 - 17:53
        -1

        "Then why does Windows have such a large market share?"

        Well pretty much because PCs are cheaper and have a wider variety of applications, so businesses go straight to PCs, which I can understand, because buying 100 iMacs would be extremely expensive. But for personal use, Mac 95% of the time is a better choice. Remember, if you need to run something on the Windows OS, its very very simple to boot your mac into windows.

        "Software is also a pretty moot argument as there are a bunch of free and open source software that do the same tasks"

        This is true, but you have to source this out, buy it, etc when you get a mac its all pre installed with regular automatic updates. The Apple programs like keynote, pages etc open Microsoft office documents, where it doesn't work the other way around.

        "Beautifully made in your eyes, that is a subjective argument"

        I'm pretty sure if you look at a black box under the desk making fan noises and occasionally flickers some coloured lights and looking like a big turd, and then compare it with a sleek thin silver aluminium casing with no noise, the second choice wins. Apple computers. Thats my opinion, and I'm sure there are people out there who like looking at turds under the desk, and thats ok, but the majority go with the Apple sleek compact clean desk look.

        "The only wire I will save by going Mac is the DVI cable going to my monitor, what other cable does a PC need that an iMac doesn't need?"

        You must have a pretty basic PC setup if you think that the only difference is the video cable.
        These are the cables a mac requires:
        1 Power Cable,
        1 keyboard,
        1 mouse,
        (optional) 1 Ethernet cable for a wired connection

        If you want a PC to have the same functionality to an iMac, then you require:
        1 power cable for the PC,
        1 power cable for the monitor,
        1 video cable,
        1 webcam for Skype and stuff,
        1 audio cable for some speakers,
        1 power cable for the speakers.
        1 Keyboard
        1 Mouse
        (optional) 1 Ethernet cable for a wired connection

        And to go along with all that, you might even need a power board to plug everything into.

        Hopefully you can tell the difference in the length of both lists.

        "If you have DLL errors, viruses, blue screens and "shit", then you're not doing it right"

        I don't think i'm the only one. PC are known for getting viruses easily. Macs are known for not having many. I switched over to mac in 2004 and I have never had a problem with viruses.

        Alright I'm looking forward to your response Paulsterio.

        • scrimshaw on 26/11/2013 - 20:08
          +2

          The second half of your argument isn't about Apple VS PC, you're really debating "All-in-one form factor is better than regular ATX desktop".

        • Manh on 26/11/2013 - 21:12

          I agree. He was comparing AIO vs Desktop box.

        • p1 ama on 26/11/2013 - 21:21

          Well pretty much because PCs are cheaper and have a wider variety of applications, so businesses go straight to PCs, which I can understand, because buying 100 iMacs would be extremely expensive. But for personal use, Mac 95% of the time is a better choice. Remember, if you need to run something on the Windows OS, its very very simple to boot your mac into windows.

          95% of the time better - says who?

          This is true, but you have to source this out, buy it, etc when you get a mac its all pre installed with regular automatic updates. The Apple programs like keynote, pages etc open Microsoft office documents, where it doesn't work the other way around.

          That's irrelevant, it takes me five minutes to get all that installed. Opening ".pages" is pretty unimportant, never have had to do it.

          I'm pretty sure if you look at a black box under the desk making fan noises and occasionally flickers some coloured lights and looking like a big turd, and then compare it with a sleek thin silver aluminium casing with no noise, the second choice wins. Apple computers. Thats my opinion, and I'm sure there are people out there who like looking at turds under the desk, and thats ok, but the majority go with the Apple sleek compact clean desk look.

          My PC doesn't flicker coloured lights.

          It's your opinion that it looks like a piece of turd, don't force it down other people's throats, PCs look fine to a lot of people too.

          Fan noises - my PC is silence optimised, I can't hear it above the ambient noise I have in my house.

          The majority don't go with the Apple "sleek, compact, clean" look, I would say that it's the opposite, the majority of PC users go with what works at the lowest price point. People who go for Macs based on looks are like people who buy expensive PC cases, they're not the majority.

          Hopefully you can tell the difference in the length of both lists.

          I can, however, Scrimshaw put it nicely, that's AIO vs. separate. Out of the list you listed, I will only save TWO cables. I don't use speakers and I have an HD webcam with a proper lens that I will need to use if I'm using an iMac anyway.

          Also, you said that there were 20 cables in your first post. You haven't listed anywhere near 20 cables. Also, I doubt there are even 20 ports on the back of your computer to plug stuff into, exaggeration much?

          I don't think i'm the only one. PC are known for getting viruses easily. Macs are known for not having many. I switched over to mac in 2004 and I have never had a problem with viruses.

          I've been using PCs since the days of DOS and I have never, ever, had a problem with viruses, it's about safe browsing habits and (back in the day) antivirus software. Now that Windows 8 comes with its own virus and spyware protection software, I don't need anything and I have not had any issues over the past few years with regards to DLL errors or anything like that. When was the last time you had a DLL error?

          I agree, back in the Windows 98 days, Windows was a mess, which was why I refused to use Windows 98 and used Windows NT 4.0 instead. However, since Windows 2000, MS OSes have been based on the NT kernel, which is actually very stable.

          Look, government agencies, schools, universities, businesses and most home users would not use Windows if it is as buggy as you seem to think it is. They are all wanting to reduce IT costs and use the most stable product possible.

          I don't think that we're going to get far in this discussion though, your arguments seem to look like this:

          "The majority of people…"
          "PCs are known for…"
          "Trust me…"
          "…95% better…"

          These aren't really scientific arguments, it's easy for me to come here and say "Mac looks like crap, is a rip off, don't buy it, trust me, they're known for being expensive and the majority of people use Windows, so it must be better", but I don't say that because it's untrue and it doesn't help the discussion.

        • stustu242 on 26/11/2013 - 23:59

          "95% of the time better - says who?"

          Says me. alright, lets think of some things people use computers for.

          • Gaming?
          • Emailing?
          • Word Processing?
          • Web browsing?
          • Music?
          • Movies?
          • Programming? (the minority)

          Alright, lets skip gaming for this mini discussion as we all know macs are not built for gaming.

          Emailing, OSX has a clean as Mail app with a beautiful easy to use interface that i would say is the easiest to set up mail client that I have used. Yeah sure, there are many options out there like Thunderbird, Outlook, Zimbra etc. but IMO, i truly think Mail is by far more optimised than these other clients.

          Word Processing. I have Microsoft Word for my mac, because I do agree it is a better program than pages. Although I generally use pages for personal stuff that i do not intend to take to work. Pages loads faster and IMO has a nicer interface. I'm competent with word, I have used it a lot but pages would be a lot easier for the people who are new to computers.

          Web browsing? Wow, Safari is so bloody underrated, it is the fastest web browser I have used on mac and on windows. I have a 8GB ram Intel Core i5 PC for gaming, and web browsing is great on chrome, although Ive done tests and safari loads faster than any other browser I have used.

          Spotify is great, but iTunes is even better when you have an iPod/iphone to go with it, its fast, easy to use, has a nice interface. Once again and tested iTunes vs Spotify, and it seems OSX apps load faster than any 3rd party ones. Movies sorta comes in with iTunes, so I'm not going to rant about that.

          I am not a programmer myself so I am not going to argue for any direction on that topic.
          For everything I have talked about above gaming aside, a mac is a fantastic choice for someone who wants a computer and wants to get productive with it quickly rather than wasting time sourcing the best mail client/word processing app, choosing the best music streamer etc etc.

          Apple has made it easy and already done for you. "ALREADY DONE FOR YOU" yep thats right, not to much more to do after buying a mac, its plug and play, with all your basic apps there.

          Moving on,

          "Fan noises - my PC is silence optimised"

          Yeah ok, get some silent fans that would be nice.
          Getting silent fans and installing them is possible, but takes effort and time and just adds more dealing with the computer rather than using the computer and enjoying using it.

          "The majority don't go with the Apple "sleek, compact, clean" look, I would say that it's the opposite, the majority of PC users go with what works at the lowest price point."

          You absolutely right, most people buy the cheapest stuff that the can find, but when you think about what people actually prefer the look of, most people would say a 2013 iMac looked more clean/nicely manufactured than a pc + a monitor.

          "Also, you said that there were 20 cables in your first post. You haven't listed anywhere near 20 cables. Also, I doubt there are even 20 ports on the back of your computer to plug stuff into, exaggeration much?"

          Your right, 20 cables coming out of my PC was an exaggeration, but I was simply making a point, there are "a lot". And about the ports, I just counted them, I have 26 ports. Hmm, but for actual cables running along the floor, I have 8. That is more than i want.

          To be honest I haven't actually got viruses as such, but more computer add ons that pre tent to be useful but are actually just money making bull shit, like ads on the Google homepage. yeah, not sus at all. adds on google docs and websites that are just simple not meant to have ads. Also I have this stupid News.net "virus" pop up thing that appears on my computer every week after I have removed it a few times by finding ways online. Now I shouldn't have to go through this bullshit when using a computer. It frustrates me, and Macs are not prone to this shit and I find them so much more relaxing to use.

          I don't even want to go into the list of DLL errors I have had but there are a bunch of words that remind me of PC gaming and make me feel cozy when using an XBOX. (drivers, missing files, fatal error occurred during install, unknown error occurred) <— I've had my fair share, and I have fixed most of these kinds of issues, although sometimes it frustrates me so much to the point I just give up and move on.

          "I don't think that we're going to get far in this discussion though"

          Oi, don't give up on me mate, i appreciate this conversation, and your interesting to talk to and have some good information, so lets roll on.

        • stustu242 on 27/11/2013 - 23:35

          24hours later and still no reply? thats disappointing.

        • p1 ama on 28/11/2013 - 20:46

          Says me. alright, lets think of some things people use computers for…etc.

          • Gaming?

          You're right, nobody uses Macs for gaming, so let's skip this.

          • Emailing?

          What's wrong with using "gmail.com" or "hotmail.com"…etc. I've never had to use a mail client in my life. I've heard that Thunderbird is a great mail client though, but why bother when the web interface is excellent?

          • Word Processing?

          Microsoft Word is the de facto standard in word processing, there's absolutely no way that Pages can hold a candle to Microsoft Word. Yes, Word is available for both Mac and PC, but the PC version is better.

          • Web browsing?

          Chrome is fine for web browsing, speed differences are mostly negligible.

          • Music?

          iTunes for Windows is just as fully featured as iTunes for OSX.

          • Movies?

          VLC.

          • Programming? (the minority)

          Depends what platform you are programming for.

          You absolutely right, most people buy the cheapest stuff that the can find, but when you think about what people actually prefer the look of, most people would say a 2013 iMac looked more clean/nicely manufactured than a pc + a monitor.

          The discussion is whether it is worth the extra price premium, we all agree that Apple charges for its design.

          Now I shouldn't have to go through this bullshit when using a computer. It frustrates me, and Macs are not prone to this shit and I find them so much more relaxing to use.

          Clean install Windows, maintain it properly and you will have no issues, I guarantee you.

          I don't even want to go into the list of DLL errors I have had but there are a bunch of words that remind me of PC gaming and make me feel cozy when using an XBOX. (drivers, missing files, fatal error occurred during install, unknown error occurred) <— I've had my fair share, and I have fixed most of these kinds of issues, although sometimes it frustrates me so much to the point I just give up and move on.

          Yes, but most of these errors arise because you have probably installed more stuff on your Windows box.

        • stustu242 on 28/11/2013 - 21:35

          "What's wrong with using "gmail.com" or "hotmail.com"…etc. I've never had to use a mail client in my life. I've heard that Thunderbird is a great mail client though, but why bother when the web interface is excellent?"

          The interface on gmail is great, I admit, but check this out: http://i.imgur.com/QbzJV9k.png

          All your inboxes in one place!! Isn't that great?
          Also one benefit of a client is that you can read emails that have been received when you were connected to the internet so during that annoying period of time that the internet is down, you can still view emails.

          I use thunderbird, but I by far prefer the interface of Mail.

          "Yes, Word is available for both Mac and PC, but the PC version is better." I agree here, Word for mac loads slower than word for PC, but I will also say that iTunes for Mac works better than iTunes for PC.

          "Chrome is fine for web browsing, speed differences are mostly negligible." Chrome is fine? I think not. once you start hitting the 80 tabs mark chrome crashes for me, quite irritating, I end up loosing all my tabs. Also with only a couple tabs, chrome starts crashing randomly when i start to watch a youtube video (not often but enough to get me off chrome).

          "VLC"
          Yep VLC is fine, go ahead, but who likes opening a road cone anyway?

          "Clean install Windows, maintain it properly and you will have no issues, I guarantee you."
          Your probably right, but the golden thing about a mac is you can download from wherever you want and whatever you want without running into issues. Less precaution, means less effort.

          "The discussion is whether it is worth the extra price premium, we all agree that Apple charges for its design."
          yep, thats the discussion, I believe it's worth the price difference. Actually, I don't think I have actually asked you yet, we have been debating opposing sides, but what do you think relating back to the original question? Is it worth it? (In your opinion)

        • stustu242 on 01/12/2013 - 12:58

          Still no reply? its been 3 days

  • nubix on 26/11/2013 - 09:41

    *nix with decent drivers. Who cares about the price?

  • guysmiley on 26/11/2013 - 12:13

    Not being an Apple owner, but having built (and rebuilt) some in the past.

    The $300 difference would come down to compeltely upgradeable parts and whether you like to use the Apple interface. Although some of the hardware I would consider better then what is in the Mac.

    I don't particularly like the OSX interface, I prefer Linux and Windows.

    While it is cheaper, I would consider Apple to be a "rip-off" just overpriced, much like the older Alienware laptops.

  • donkeydoc on 26/11/2013 - 21:40

    Should also mention that the PC you built has better performance, the i5 you chose is much better, so for an equivalent you can easily get a system for $500 cheaper

  • Manh on 28/11/2013 - 19:18

    eBay just sent an email showing an MBA for $919 free delivery and it's Australian stock. With this kind of rare discount on Apple stuff, it's hard for me to say they're overpriced for this one time :)

    http://groupbuy.ebay.com.au/deal?itemId=141120763958
    Model number: MD711
    Price: $919 ($1099 RRP)

    Key Features
    •11.6 inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display with support for millions of colours
    •128GB flash storage
    •1.3GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 (Turbo Boost up to 2.6GHz) with 3MB shared L3 cache
    •Intel HD Graphics 5000
    •4GB of 1600MHz LPDDR3 onboard memory
    •Dimensions:
    Height: 0.3–1.7 cm (0.11–0.68 inch)
    Width: 30 cm (11.8 inches)
    Depth: 19.2 cm (7.56 inches)
    Weight: 1.08 kg (2.38 pounds)
    •720p FaceTime HD camera
    •Connections and Expansions:
    Two USB 3 ports (up to 5 Gbps)
    Thunderbolt port (up to 10 Gbps)
    MagSafe 2 power port
    •802.11ac Wi-Fi networking; IEEE 802.11a/b/g/n compatible
    •Bluetooth 4.0 wireless technology
    •Battery and Power:
    Up to 9 hours wireless web
    Up to 8 hours iTunes movie playback
    Up to 30 days standby time
    Built-in 54-watt-hour lithium-polymer battery
    45W MagSafe 2 Power Adapter with cable management; MagSafe 2 power port

    • ProspectiveDarkness on 28/11/2013 - 20:05
      +1

      MBA's are probably the best priced models in Apple's line up.

  • demiurge on 13/12/2013 - 16:22

    What do you mean "actually"? Apple has always been a ripoff.

  • Foxtail on 15/12/2013 - 12:07

    In all the years had many Apple computers, never ever had problems selling any of them for a good price, examples sold a 4 year old 27" iMac for $950, a 2 year old iPad3 64 Wi Fi + cell for $550 this year, not sure what non Apple used bring.

  • shannonn54 on 15/12/2013 - 12:38

    Can the Mac users who raise valid points re reliability, longetivity and rugged build quality
    Tell me how many laptops Apple has made specifically for military use? Say for the US military that is known to have some horrendous requirements such as the ability to be dropped from heights shock proofing water and dust intrusion prevention on internals etc.

    Last I heard it was a PC laptop dominated market, and seeing Macs can run PC software that should'nt make any difference. If that situation has changed I would appreciate the comments by serving military personnel and some numbers please

    Given the glowing reports Mac user give re build quality, one would be forgiven to think that any recent Mac laptop could meet these additional military shock requirements outta the box?

    Shannon

    • Foxtail on 15/12/2013 - 12:55

      I've had Macs for nigh on 20 years, many when I was in the print/publishing industry and they really got a flogging, not one ever had to have repaired, always found them well made. We used PC's for accounting but later switched to Macs.

      Have no idea about the military, mine have all been for home or business use, both iMacs and various Macbooks.

      With computers its what your used to.

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