Raising Awareness - Traffic Infringements Loophole

meong on 17/12/2024 - 12:03
Last edited 17/12/2024 - 12:04

Moderators,

i intentionally posted this update as a separate thread to this https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/835435

Last time I posted this, the steps I mentioned in the post were too detailed that it was taken down as it could be easily abused.

So here I am posting an update that the police has finally catches up on this and a safer way to explain the exploit:
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/australian-state-crack…

Issue has been happening in my current address since 2022 but I've only moved into this address in 2022 anyway so I think this issue would have been going on for a while.

Automotive

Comments

    • Euphemistic on 17/12/2024 - 13:02
      +5

      Finea ar only a deterrent for those that arent rich. A $500 fine is nothing for someone with $1m in the bank.

      • EightImmortals on 17/12/2024 - 13:14
        +4

        Good point. So lets drop all fines and use the demerit system alone. We both know why they aren't already doing that.

        • Murkymerv on 17/12/2024 - 13:39

          Control ?

          • EightImmortals on 17/12/2024 - 13:44

            @Murkymerv: I was thinking revenue raising but I guess pinching peoples money is a form of control. :)

            • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 14:21
              +3

              @EightImmortals: So you think people should just do what they like and it doesn’t matter who they inconvenience or put at risk? Frankly you play stupid games you win stupid prizes.

              • EightImmortals on 17/12/2024 - 14:22
                +1

                @try2bhelpful: So please explain how you reached that conclusion based on what I wrote?

                • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 14:42
                  +8

                  @EightImmortals: You said “revenue raising but I guess pinching peoples money is a form of control. :)”.

                  Fines act as an immediate deterrent. The demerit point system is a bit more esoteric. They only become an issue once you build up a few infringements. We haven’t got many fines over the years but the ones we have done have altered our behaviour immediately. We can equate the money lost to something concrete. However, there is something to be said for the Scandi idea that fines are based on income. This stops the rich people just brushing them off.

                  You always go “deep state” with your comments. If “controlling someone’s behaviour” is making them drive in a safer and more considerate manner than all power to the state. I’d rather not be the person these idiots hit because they don’t think the rules apply to them.

                  • EightImmortals on 17/12/2024 - 14:58
                    +3

                    @try2bhelpful: Firstly, losing your license would be more of a deterrent than losing money especially when that was the point made by the person I WAS REPLYING TO.

                    Secondly, The topic is about speeding and not 'drive in a safer and more considerate manner', those may be related in some cases but in most cases they are not. I have seen plenty of dangerous and inconsiderate drivers who drive at or below the speed limit. Going a few K's over now and then doesn't hurt anyone but is a great source of income for government, this is not a 'conspiracy' (lols). Most states even include fine revenue in their budgets for the year.

                    Excessive speeding is not what we are talking about.

                    Nobody mentioned the deep state and I really wish you'd stop having that conversation in your head and simply reply to what I wrote without the eisegesis. :)

                    "I’d rather not be the person these idiots hit because they don’t think the rules apply to them."

                    The only time I've been hit are by people who were not speeding, they may have been not looking, or distracted or whatever. When you do get hit it is of little consolation what speed they were doing.

                    • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 15:59

                      @EightImmortals: You are the one going on about “pinching people’s money as a form of control”. It isn’t me who is having that conversation in my head.

                      Demerit points are only the issue once you lose your licence. Until then it is purely gaming the system. Besides there are plenty of people who will still drive if they have lost their licence to demerit points. So what do you do for punishment after that? Perhaps fine them? Lock them up?

                      The statistics show speeding is one of the things that contributes to deaths and injuries. That is just a plain fact.

                      • Murkymerv on 17/12/2024 - 18:42
                        -5

                        @try2bhelpful: You'll find that people that drive unhinged on the road aren't going to care about fines , loss of licence or both .It Is designed to keep the masses at bay and if you don't believe that , I've got a vaccine I'd like to sell you.

        • Euphemistic on 17/12/2024 - 15:58
          +4

          We need both fines and demerit system (and deprivation of liberty) to cater for all walks of life. If the penalty is only a fine, then the penalty does not apply equally across society - unless the fine is proportional to net worth.

          • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 16:00

            @Euphemistic: Yup.

          • Murkymerv on 17/12/2024 - 18:43

            @Euphemistic: All walks of life are not treated the same , just to be clear .

            • Euphemistic on 17/12/2024 - 18:45
              +2

              @Murkymerv: Thats why we need demerits as well as fines and other penalties.

              • Murkymerv on 17/12/2024 - 19:05
                -1

                @Euphemistic: To oppress the people that are already finding it hard to get by with raising a family paying bills trying to keep a roof over their head or come up with the rent . More police presence would be a good start rather than privatised speed camera operators , and they're getting more nefarious in their attempts to catch out the public.

                • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 19:44
                  +1

                  @Murkymerv: There are a whole lot of crimes I would rather see the police investigating than manning speed cameras. If people think they are likely to be picked up at any time then they are less likely to speed overall. The best way to avoid being “oppressed” by a fine is to not break the rules in the first place. If you truly cared about your family you would be more careful.

                  • Murkymerv on 17/12/2024 - 21:25
                    +1

                    @try2bhelpful: Police presence is not operating speed cameras , just to be clear !

          • SlickMick on 18/12/2024 - 09:54

            @Euphemistic: You addressed why fines (in thier current form) don't work, but you didn't address why demerit and deprivation of liberty is insufficient without fines.

      • TEER3X on 17/12/2024 - 16:02

        Finea ar only a deterrent for those that arent rich.

        Disagree, I've seen plenty of poor people speeding, and I'm willing to bet, most well off people aren't reckless and it's the less fortunate that do most of the speeding.

        A $500 fine is nothing for someone with $1m in the bank.

        It actually is, I doubt anyone with $1m in the bank account is willing to through away $500. How do you think they got there in the first place?

        • Euphemistic on 17/12/2024 - 16:14

          I've seen plenty of poor people speeding, and I'm willing to bet, most well off people aren't reckless and it's the less fortunate that do most of the speeding.

          Poor people often have nothing to lose. Fining them just adds more to the debt the cant pay anyway. 'Well off' people arent reckless because they dont want to lose what they have, fines work. Really wealthy people think nothing of dropping thousands for a days entertainment, a small fine is just the cost to play.

          I doubt anyone with $1m in the bank account is willing to through away $500. How do you think they got there in the first place?

          Sure. $1m isnt really rich and it sucks to lose $500 but it was just an example, and obviously not high enough to make the point. There are vastly more wealthy people out there that could throw $500 out the window every week or every day and not miss it. Those are the people that fines are ineffective for.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 17/12/2024 - 16:57

        I like the alternative idea you have provided

      • 2esc on 18/12/2024 - 09:54

        In 2010, a Swedish driver, 37, was fined 1.08 million Swiss francs (£957,000 / $1.2 million). In Sweden fines are linked to income to make it fairer.

    • HeWhoKnows on 18/12/2024 - 10:54

      Im more concerned about foreign drivers evading the fines!

      Its a huge amount of money not being collected by councils and the state government.

      Foreign drivers should be held back (by customs) on thier way out of the country and made to pay all outstanding fines before they leave or have thier departure cancelled until they do pay the fines.

      But almost all of these fines are incurred whilst driving company vehicles.
      Most of which are traffic controllers driving the required trucks to and from sites.
      So the traffic control company should be made to pay the fine if its not paid by the driver they nominated…

      • meong on 18/12/2024 - 10:59

        these foreign drivers in this loophole don't exist though…

        so really, the traffic control company should just charge the original owner of the vehicle that tried to fraudulently nominate another driver.

        i asked Fines Victoria about how can I make these letter stop? can I prove that only me and my wife live in this address and that should prevent those fines from flooding my inbox? the answer is no.

        apparently only the nominated drivers can defend and reject the nomination.

        basically, if John Smith is the original person listed against the rego of the car, he would nominate using fraudulent ID of a Jane Doe.

        if I want to reject these nominations, basically I need to be able to prove that I'm Jane Doe to reject that claim.

        Fines Victoria did say there is nothing to worry about if these fines are not addressed to me, which is true. it's just an inconvenience of dealing with 20-30 letters per week and checking them one by one that none of these are addressed to me (just in case it comes from a bank, etc) and throw them in the bin.

        • Miss B on 18/12/2024 - 19:06
          -1

          You shouldn't be opening or throwing out mail addressed to other people. Also, if in 2022 you had been RTSing them they may have realised there was a problem and maybe you wouldn't receive them or as many of them now.

          • meong on 18/12/2024 - 20:07

            @Miss B: I have been RTSing them. Same names kept popping up along with the other new names. I have even raised it directly with the DoJ case officer.

            I know the federal law. It was already discussed in the earlier posts.

  • Gdsamp on 17/12/2024 - 12:53
    +5

    Unlimited traffic infringement exploit [PATCHED]

    • meong on 17/12/2024 - 13:27

      yeah thats pretty much it 😅

  • sandman20104159 on 17/12/2024 - 13:06
    +1

    so let me get this straight… your address is getting sent letters of fines for "made up" people to take the fine? and the police or the infringment place dont care? is that the summary of that massive long post?

    • meong on 17/12/2024 - 13:10

      yeah, but really, the article i linked gives you better summary or just use this: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/15049240/redir

      • sandman20104159 on 17/12/2024 - 13:50

        ok, well i rent and i had the last dudes fines arrive, first time i did a Return to Sender, second i did the same with a note written on back to stop sending, 3rd i opened and had a read, it was the sherif letter, and then the 4th onwards i just binned it. honestly id just throw them all in the bin but if you are getting 100s a day… then id be taking them in person to the transport dept and dump it on their counter and tell them to pull their heads in and fix it.

        • meong on 17/12/2024 - 13:53
          -1

          i was indeed thinking of dumping this at the local post office but i feel bad for the staffs.

          it should have gone to Fines Victoria really as they are the one who sent these letters. even Vicroads refused to deal with this.

          which is why i also received a case officer from DoJ because Fines Victoria is under DoJ

  • vorsprung on 17/12/2024 - 13:38
    +5

    Anyone who "exploits" this is an idiot. It's fraud (identity theft?). Fraud tends to catch up to people. Can't believe the government has been asleep for so long on this. I assume the victim's passport also gets flagged after months of unpaid fine(s). That would make for a fun trip if they ever decide to come to Australia (or leave if they're already here).

    • meong on 17/12/2024 - 13:44
      +1

      there was no victim to this. they didn't use someone's passport. they just basically photoshopped a passport or maybe a fake international ID but apparently when you use it to nominate infringements against, they have no way of verifying the international IDs.

      i questioned about why it never bounced back to the original and DoJ basically told me the process to bounce it back has to be done by the (inexistent) nominees to argue against it

    • freefall101 on 17/12/2024 - 14:15

      I’m guessing it fell in the too hard basket for too long, coordinating between agencies is hard and border force wouldn’t have done anything until someone coughed up some funding.

      • meong on 17/12/2024 - 14:22
        -1

        they said pretty much the same thing when i escalated via the ombudsman last year.

        Vicroads -> Fines Victoria -> Vic Police

    • Minimum chips on 17/12/2024 - 18:53

      I'd love to think there's that much natural justice in the world, but people get away with fraud a lot. You only hear about the ones that get caught, not the ones who happily embezzle, rort and cheat until the day they die, with no consequences.

      • jackspratt on 18/12/2024 - 17:33
        +1

        …the ones who happily embezzle, rort and cheat until the day they die, with no consequences.

        Some even get elected to very high office.

        Twice.

  • pharkurnell on 17/12/2024 - 13:45
    +1

    Nominating other people has been going on since jesus played fullback for Jerusalem..

    • meong on 17/12/2024 - 13:46
      +1

      yes, but if you nominate using an Australian ID (passport or license) they can easily verify that its fake

      or at least, if its a valid aussie ID, the nominee will get a later who will then "wtf" and challenge it immediately.

      if the ID was fake to begin with, there will be no one challenging it and the infringements will just be sitting in the blackhole of non-existent people

  • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 14:32
    +1

    Eventually the cover up will bite you harder than the original infringement. There have been a few high profile cases where this has happened. Unfortunately for one idiot the person he nominated had died before the last infringement. Oops. This sort of nonsense just causes a crackdown backlash. This makes it harder for people where there genuinely was someone else borrowing the car. If you are a foreign National then this crackdown might include refusing entry to people who play this game. You go on holiday and it becomes a “you shall not pass” issue. This sort of response would be a vote winner.

    • meong on 17/12/2024 - 14:43
      -1

      i think as long as you're using a local ID, then the nomination shouldn't be too hard providing the system is there to verify this automatically.

      heck, i just got a car loan accepted overnight just by submitting selfie of myself and the ID online.

      so, this will only become an issue if the person borrowing your car does not have local IDs to be used (which can be something as simple as a Keypass).

      the next restriction will be against the temporary visa holders. in the past for example, Vicroads only required Permanent Resident visa holders to obtain Vicroads licens to be able to drive in Victoria. then they eventually changed that if you stay here for more than 6 months you need a local license.

      also in that article, NSW is also making it more strict:

      "From March 1, 2025, the New South Wales Government will also require long-term temporary visa holders who arrived in the state prior to July 1, 2023 to obtain a driver’s licence in the jurisdiction."

      • try2bhelpful on 17/12/2024 - 14:52

        The real problem is people fraudulently trying to offload the punishment by falsely nominating a different driver or using fake information. Especially if “foreigners” are cheating the system this is catnip to the Murdoch dog whistlers. The politicians will see cracking down on this as a sure fire vote winner.

        Arghhh with the car thing. No wonder identity fraud is such an issue.

        • Counter Intelligence on 17/12/2024 - 15:58

          Judge Einfeld x_X

        • dtc on 17/12/2024 - 17:27
          +1

          yeah, but its the wrong type of foreigners for Murdoch

          This follows French nationals reportedly being among the worst offenders in the practice of offloading demerit points, with more than 50 repeat offenders having their licences suspended following Taskforce investigations

          • meong on 17/12/2024 - 17:33
            +1

            @dtc: Well the names that appeared on the envelopes are based on certain origins or can be associated to certain religions that these news companies would love to nip on 😅

            There are so many variations (sometimes just one or two letter difference) of Ahmed, Khalil, Jamal, of more than 300 unique names (yes i did put them into an excel spreadsheet)

  • JIMB0 on 17/12/2024 - 18:04
    +2

    This wouldn't happen if they had to actually pull someone over to issue a fine.

    • meong on 17/12/2024 - 19:25
      -1

      I looked into some of the speed infringements i've been receiving… Mannn some of them were like 120km/h in an 80 zone

      • Nugs on 18/12/2024 - 06:15

        Rookie numbers
        .

        • meong on 18/12/2024 - 06:50

          Ha of course… But i was implying its probably hard for any cops to pull them over…

  • Tomcruise on 17/12/2024 - 20:19

    Been cross checking on Immi records for 10+ years.

    The Loophole is if you know the system, you can make the penalty go (Stat Barred) which means it can no longer be enforced as it's gone past its statute of limitations.

    • BuddhaBoy on 18/12/2024 - 19:44

      Not anymore. With the new powers to the Director Fines Vic, fines stay alive forever. Note - this is for Fines Vic.
      However, your comment is valid for Council fines (12months).

      If it is a council fine, council should lodge the fine with Fines Vic and that fines never gets stat barred.

      • meong on 18/12/2024 - 20:05

        I could see some parking infringements from council offices but never got escalated to Fines Vic.

  • Odin on 18/12/2024 - 08:59

    One individual, identified as an extreme case, amassed more than 1500 demerit points,

    Hah, honestly that's pretty funny how ridiculous it got.

  • anthony t on 18/12/2024 - 12:08

    “New South Wales is cracking down on international drivers offloading their demerit point penalties by teaming up with Border Force.”

    I’d love to know how these international drivers are allegedly managing to team up with BF!

  • Ramrunner on 18/12/2024 - 17:58

    On the back of the announcement made earlier this year:

    https://austroads.gov.au/drivers-and-vehicles/overseas-drive…

    This is all a good thing. I don't care how long it's taken they're finally doing something. I for one am happy.

    It only takes 15 minutes on the roads near where I live to spot drivers who have not even sat an Australian driving test. When you consider our kids are 12 months on L plates mandatory 50/100 hours experience before sitting a quite hard driving test then another 18 months on P plates, it's ridiculous these sorts of things have not been dealt with before for foreigners or new Australians.

    I have friends who are foreign, and TWO of them flew back to their country of origin just to get their license basically in their country of origin as it's not as strict.

    I'm all for all rules for all people.

  • Purp on 18/12/2024 - 18:16

    nsw put this one out a while ago I remember https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-and-events/media-relea…

    • meong on 18/12/2024 - 20:09

      "selling demering points online"

      I already suspected this is the case. Its like hey pay me $100 ill make your demerit points go away.

  • rave75 on 18/12/2024 - 18:27

    I wonder if the offenders' name have specific origin?

    • meong on 18/12/2024 - 20:08

      I'm more thinking the offender would have good photoshop templates of IDs of specific origins hence kept using the same types of names.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join