Ideas for Heating a Large Downstairs Area

aretsa9 on 24/07/2024 - 13:08
Last edited 24/07/2024 - 13:16 by 1 other user

Hi, looking for ideas for heating a large downstairs room area.

Considered underfloor heating but it is apparently not feasible for an existing structure. Now considering hydronic radiators as we had in the UK.

I’ve gleaned from my research that:

  • Gas is more expensive to install although we do have natural gas.
  • Electric is more expensive to run although we do have solar panels.

Already have various small heaters, reverse cycle and dehumidifiers. Would ideally like to consolidate into one (or more) efficient units. All ideas and recommendations welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Home & Garden

Comments

  • AustriaBargain on 24/07/2024 - 13:15
    +27

    Split systems. The answer is always reverse cycle split systems.

      • AustriaBargain on 24/07/2024 - 14:11
        +18

        This is OzBargain, not OzEmperorNero'sPalace. We'd all love silent underfloor heating and plumbed radiators in every room, but if we could afford that we wouldn't be here in the first place.

        • JimB on 24/07/2024 - 14:23
          -4

          Just because you're here to save some $$ on some items doesn't mean you're not willing to spend money on being comfortable.

          I must admit I appreciate my silent underfloor heating downstairs, radiators in bedrooms and heated towel rails in bathrooms everyday during winter.

          I previously lived in a house with split systems… for my next house, I went Hydronic heating. No ragrets.

          Hydronic costs me about $10 a day to run in the middle of winter. It's worth it for 2 cups of takeaway coffee. So say about $1,000 a year to run, I'm ok with that.

          Come to think about it heating alone would be less than $1k for the year, as that some of that includes gas hot water and the daily connection fees

          • mrmachine on 25/07/2024 - 11:54
            +8

            @JimB: $10 a day is expensive. In peak Winter AC costs me $1.47 a day for heating. Hydronic is still relatively inefficient (heat loss in transmission) and complicated (need to heat the water at inopportune times) and there's an annoying lag time for floor/slab heating.

            If your house is properly airtight and insulated, AC can give you a quick injection of heat where/when needed and then the house will do its job and maintain so the AC doesn't have to work hard.

            If your house is not properly airtight and insulated, hydronic is still going to be worse and more expensive.

            Here's someone who had both hydronic and AC and compared directly over a period of 3 years. They wouldn't go hydronic again.

            https://renew.org.au/renew-magazine/efficient-homes/air-cond…

            • JimB on 25/07/2024 - 13:44
              +1

              @mrmachine: "annoying lag time for floor/slab heating"

              It would annoying if I had to wake up at 5am to make sure the floor and room is warm by 7am. Fortunately I have a learning thermostat for that.

              What isn't annoying is being able to walk barefoot on a warm floor in winter.

              I don't need a third hand opinion of hydronic vs AC. I currently have both a hydronic system and a 20kw RCAC system for the past 5 years. I had to use the RCAC system for heating for a few weeks last winter as there was a fault in my boiler. It was ok, but radiant heating is so much better than RCAC. RCAC used about 30kw each day in winter, so there wasn't much saving.

              Gas is expensive, but hydronic uses less gas than gas ducted. In an ideal world, I'd get a heat pump to run the hydronic slab heating.

              I got my bill last night for 2 months over winter. Daily usage was $8.40. Say hot water and cooking made up say 20% of usage, so say $7 a day. I'm good with that.

              Anyway my point is, reverse cycle split systems aren't the only solution to heating, especially for a large room.

              Sure, a Rolls Royce and a Camry will both get you from A to B.

              • mrmachine on 25/07/2024 - 18:51
                +2

                @JimB: You might not have to wake up at 5am (and nor do I with AC) but you do need to have your floor heating running for 2 hours while you're asleep so it's nice when you wake up.

                And use up all your hot water in the evening heating the floor then pay to hear more overnight ready for wake up instead of heating hot water during the day for free.

                Whatever floats your boat. I'm glad you're happy. But split systems aren't a "shit way" to heat a room. They're efficient and plenty comfortable.

                • JimB on 25/07/2024 - 22:33

                  @mrmachine: The gas hydronic using a boiler just for heating.

                  Hot water is run off instant gas with solar tank.

                  I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

        • Blargman2001 on 26/07/2024 - 00:48
          +2

          JimB is just trying to flex. We have in slab underfloor heating in our living areas, heated towel rails etc and they're crazy expensive to run in winter compared to our reverse cycle. They're nice to haves but not something I would recommend to everyone.

          • Jackson on 26/07/2024 - 16:12

            @Blargman2001: I am getting this but electrical and not hydronic. I figure with enough solar panels and the future being charged for your feed in, you can heat the slab in the day and by night you can shut it off and it will still be warm. It's costing me 5k to find out if this is feasible, so it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out (0.003% of the cost of the build maybe?)

            • Blargman2001 on 26/07/2024 - 17:46

              @Jackson: Yeah ours is electrical in slab. When we built ours it was installed on controlled load because that was the norm. I don't know if it's possible but running them on solar like you're planning is probably the best way nowadays since controlled load isn't that cheap anymore. If feed in tariffs disappear I might consider getting our underfloor heating switched to solar power as well.

              • Jackson on 27/07/2024 - 15:36

                @Blargman2001: My understanding is that the electrical usually isn't in the slab now days and is in above it or in the screed. Do you have tiles? If you heat it up to temp how long will it stay warm after you turn it off?

                • Blargman2001 on 27/07/2024 - 20:36

                  @Jackson: We have tiles. Previously it used to only run 12-6AM. If we set it to 24° the floor temperature measured with my IR thermometer was about 19-21° at 9PM depending on how cold it is outside. Now controlled load has a shoulder period during the day where it runs from about 11-3PM in addition to the 12-6AM run time so it's toasty for the whole day. The installer didn't tell us that the system will work better with an insulated slab so we only managed to get the builder to put insulation on one side. If you insulate your slab it will probably be nice and toasty well into the evening. Climate I'm dealing with is Adelaide btw.

                  • Jackson on 28/07/2024 - 00:13

                    @Blargman2001: When you say insulated, do you mean the slab edge as per Basix? Or you mean underneath? Or do you mean insulated underneath? Would wouldn't insulate the top would you?

                    • Blargman2001 on 28/07/2024 - 18:55
                      +1

                      @Jackson: For in slab heating ideally you would insulate underneath and the sides. I don't think insulation is needed for in screed underfloor heating. Need to speak to your builder about if they are able to do it. Might have to involve an engineer to redesign the slab, I'm not sure. Since we were already too late in the planning process when we found this out we were only able to get one side insulated (they let us put in some foam on the side when they poured the slab).

                      • Jackson on 29/07/2024 - 09:47

                        @Blargman2001: I have a basement underneath at least part of it so maybe it's not that bad to skip the underneath insul, I could always add it later if required. I know a lot of people use waffle slabs now and so foam is included on those ones

            • mrmachine on 28/07/2024 - 08:55

              @Jackson: I've heard that if your house is proper passive solar designed so you already have sun warming up your slab in the day then turning the under floor heating on as well in preparation for the evening gets too hot. But if you have parts of the house that are cold and not getting any winter sun inside and have large enough solar then that sounds reasonable.

              • Blargman2001 on 28/07/2024 - 19:00
                +1

                @mrmachine: The underfloor heating has a thermostat with a sensor inside the slab. Once the slab reaches the desired temperature either from the heating element or the sun, the system stops until the temperature drops again.

      • JIMB0 on 24/07/2024 - 21:15
        -3

        You must have cheaped out and got a crap brand of split system. The good ones are almost silent once up to temperature.

        • JimB on 24/07/2024 - 21:57

          Nope.

          Panasonic and Fujitsu.

          • JIMB0 on 25/07/2024 - 13:44
            -4

            @JimB: Those are mid tier brands, no wonder you weren't happy.

  • Aureus on 24/07/2024 - 13:25

    ^ As above.

    Gas is silly. Hydronic heat pump is good but stupid expensive last time I looked. Splits are cheap, efficient and gives you redundancy.

    • jv on 24/07/2024 - 13:27
      -7

      Gas is silly.

      No it's not… It's cheap to install.

      • EightImmortals on 24/07/2024 - 13:39
        +2

        Just pull my finger already.

      • sumyungguy on 24/07/2024 - 14:28

        I had the same thought until I looked up how much Rinnai flued gas space heaters cost.

      • placard on 24/07/2024 - 16:42

        Expensive to run.

        • jv on 24/07/2024 - 16:45

          Not really…

          Much cheaper for us than our electricity or water bills.

          • placard on 24/07/2024 - 16:48
            +1

            @jv: How on earth can gas bill be cheaper than water bill? Water bill is usually hardly anything unless you're filling up a swimming pool.

            • jv on 24/07/2024 - 16:52

              @placard:

              How on earth can gas bill be cheaper than water bill?

              No idea, but it definitely is… We have a large garden.

              • Euphemistic on 24/07/2024 - 18:35
                +1

                @jv: If you're using truckloads of water in the garden you're doing it wrong.

                • jv on 24/07/2024 - 18:46

                  @Euphemistic: don't want the plants or lawn to die.

                  • Euphemistic on 24/07/2024 - 18:57
                    +1

                    @jv: Youve got the wrong plants and lawn if it needs copious water

                    • jv on 24/07/2024 - 19:08
                      -2

                      @Euphemistic: No, I have the right ones and need to make sure they stay healthy.

                      • Euphemistic on 24/07/2024 - 19:53
                        +1

                        @jv: ** sigh **

                      • JIMB0 on 24/07/2024 - 21:17
                        +2

                        @jv: The right plants are the ones that have survived despite never being watered. Survival of the fittest.

                        • jv on 24/07/2024 - 21:18
                          -4

                          @JIMB0: No, the right plants are the ones I chose to put in my garden, the rest are weeds.

                          • Jackson on 26/07/2024 - 16:24
                            +1

                            @jv: settler colonialism but for gardens

                        • jv on 24/07/2024 - 21:19
                          -1

                          @JIMB0:

                          Survival of the fittest.

                          Trump and Biden disprove that theory.

            • 2esc on 25/07/2024 - 12:43

              @placard: I dont have gas personally as none in my small town but friends and family do and over the same period of time they all spend a lot more on water than gas.

              My water bill just in service charges is around 80 percent of the bill there might be regional cost differences I'm in East gippsland, Victoria.

          • nigel deborah on 26/07/2024 - 08:11

            @jv: Gas can be good compared to conventional electric element heaters / hot water. But modern heat pumps are so stupidly more efficient that the raw energy required is so much lower, you'd be mad to do anything else on a new build (both for heating and water).

        • Qazxswec on 24/07/2024 - 21:26
          +1

          no they're not, we have been running multiple gas heaters over winter and the months before and our latest quarterly bill is $120

        • 2esc on 25/07/2024 - 12:58
          -1

          Gas is cheaper to run.

          Even bottled gas works out cheaper my mum recently spoke to a family friend whose a plumber as she asked him after she had door knockers promoting heat pumps. There would have to be a significant rise in price before you would consider changing.

          Mother in law in Mirboo North was out of power for 10 days after those storms earlier in the year. Never rely on one power system power out you can still heat the home or have a hot shower.

          My small town doesnt has gas and i dont but a few new homes in the last couple years got bottled gas installed for cooking( not heating or hot water)

          • placard on 25/07/2024 - 14:33
            +3

            @2esc: I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion? My parents installed a 6.6kw system in 2019, and it paid it self off in 3 years from much reduced electricity bills. They had already installed a split system, and started to use that for heating even while they were on gas, as even without solar, running the split system was cheaper - given it is 300-400% efficient.

            The hot water recently was last gas appliance to replace from gas storage to heat pump. For the several few years before, the gas connection and usage was around $650 per year, just to heat hot water. That is now around $50-70 annual in forgone FiT as the heat pump is set to run during the daylight hours. The outlay for this means it will pay off in just under 3 years.

            Their current total energy bills are averaging under $20 a month after the gas has been abolished. It most certainly is cheaper. They can use heating/cooling/hot water now and not be stressed about energy bills. Meanwhile you hear of people on ducted gas heating costing them hundreds each month.

            There are many houses that never had mains gas, so it's not that radical for people who have mains gas to disconnect. Not a huge issue to rely on one energy source, I mean sure you have gas in a power outage, but there's so much you can't do anyway it's not that critical - I mean give it 12 hours and your food is off anyway. Historically our power cuts are few and far between and only last less than an hour at most. Only the likes of Sky News keep banging on about energy crisis. The storms earlier in the year were a freak event indeed.

            I really think it is unwise installing bottled gas for gas cooking - why not just install induction stove - so much better! I'd never go back to gas stove after using induction.

  • jugsy on 24/07/2024 - 13:26
    +4

    Solar + reverse cycle. Don't cheap out on insulation

    • jv on 24/07/2024 - 13:27

      Solar

      Great for those cold winter nights…

      • jugsy on 24/07/2024 - 13:28

        jv moment

  • MS Paint on 24/07/2024 - 13:28

    Multi head split might help for more even air distribution in a large area.

  • onetwothreefour on 24/07/2024 - 13:41

    We have an open plan living/dining/kitchen and high ceilings (5m high in some spots) and we bought the largest aircon unit we could at the time which was 9kW which heats the whole area and also upstairs gets warm too but not the bedrooms as doors are closed.

  • ihfree on 24/07/2024 - 13:43
    +13

    Hot bricks and a firepit.

  • coffeeinmyveins on 24/07/2024 - 13:44
    +1

    Ignoring how you heat the downstairs area, you need to look at how you can retain the heat and prevent it from getting that cold in the first place.

    How's the insulation? Do you have a dozen windows that are single glazed?

    • ashtdp on 25/07/2024 - 08:45

      Does Low E glass help retain the heat or is it only better for blocking external heat?

      • cfuse on 25/07/2024 - 14:48
        +1

        One way insulation would be the holy grail of physics.

  • netjock on 24/07/2024 - 13:50

    heating a large downstairs room area

    How large.

    Is it rectangular or what shape it is.

    If you got large windows you tried double glazing or retrofit another layer plus honeycomb blinds? Also try to look at any leakage.

    Removing air leakage and drafts then look at passive devices such as retrofit glazing and / or honey comb blinds etc would be better investment. Then get right size heating.

    Now considering hydronic radiators as we had in the UK

    Problem is you need to lay the pipes and have something to heat it up. Boilers aren't easy to come by in Oz. Heat pump might not create warm enough water depending on the size of system.

    • JimB on 24/07/2024 - 14:04
      +1

      Gas Boilers are very easy to come by in Oz but at double the costs of Europe.

      Heat pumps can't heat up the water hot enough for radiators, they are ok for slab heating.

  • slknv on 24/07/2024 - 13:51
    +7

    Where was that bloke who wanted to run his cooktop all day, or have an indoor charcoal bbq to warm his house?

    • Minimum chips on 25/07/2024 - 08:10
      +2

      In ICU with 3rd degree burns and carbon monoxide inhalation.

  • JimB on 24/07/2024 - 14:17
    +2

    If you can afford it and want radiant heating, then you'll have to go hydronic panels and gas boilers.

    Splits will the cheapest, and nastiest type of heating.

    I've got gas hydronic with panels. In a fairly well insulated room, it doesn't cost that much to run.

    I've compared it to running my ducted reverse cycle and it cost about 20 percent more than run.

    Unfortunately solar doesn't produce much power in the dead of winter, so you're going to have to pay one way or the other.

    My wife was complaining when using the reverse cycle why she was so cold compared to hydronic heating, even though the the thermostat for reverse cycle set higher than when using hydronic heating. My theory is that is due to the the reverse cycle blowing warm air (compared to radiant heating).

  • Euphemistic on 24/07/2024 - 15:38
    +2

    Step one, natural heating, seal and insulate. Get as much sunlight as possible in during the day then close up. Block up all the drafts, put doors into openings. Double glazing or at least curtains. Floor coverings if theres no carpet.

  • tmcn85 on 25/07/2024 - 16:20

    Infrared panels might suit you by the sounds of it. They give off a healthy feeling glow from a large panel on a ceiling or wall.
    Perhaps pair with a battery added to your solar.

  • NachoCheese on 25/07/2024 - 16:22

    Your house is a like a thermal envelope. Spend money on Insulation and block hot air going out and cold air coming in, vise versa in summer.

    If insulation is good, you wouldn’t need to heat or cool your rooms and it’ll be comfortable all year round.

    Otherwise RCAC split (reverse cycle air conditioning) will be the most efficient form of heating and cooling.

  • USH4NKA on 25/07/2024 - 17:25
    +1

    I usually go with pants to start with

    • hopper on 26/07/2024 - 07:08

      I also add socks

  • A-mak on 25/07/2024 - 18:28

    Why do you run dehumidifier if you want the room to feel warmer?

    Did you mean just humidifier?

    First google result:
    https://www.comfortmatters.com/blog/indoor-air-quality-servi….

    • PeelThis on 25/07/2024 - 22:50

      In winter and especially when wet outside the humidty in the air is high.
      A dehumidifier extracts the water out of the air and reduces the humidity.
      I've personally noticed the difference with the split system, it will heat the room but doesn't do much to reduce the humidty so you have a warm room with cold damp air on the colder wetter days.
      Running the dehumidifier to drop this down + running the split does make a difference in comfort vs running the split alone.

      • mrmachine on 26/07/2024 - 07:17
        +1

        It's usually more dry in winter when you want a humidifier to help feel warmer and more humid in summer when you want a dehumidifier to feel cool. AC naturally has a dehumidifying effect and usually have a dedicated "dry" mode. Some also have the ability to humidify.

  • Mrgreenz on 25/07/2024 - 22:46
    +1

    Wood stove

  • PeelThis on 25/07/2024 - 22:58

    Split system for convenience and efficiency.
    Wood heater like a freestanding Coonara for the best warmth, you can't beat them for the heat they output and how they dry out the room.
    The downsides are that you either pay or collect the wood (significant time and prep), need wood storage to dry it out if collecting, and effort to get it going and cleaning out the firebox.
    Even if going with with a 2nd hand one off marketplace ($~1000) by the time you add the hearth, flue, plumber to install and certify you are looking at about 2.5k

    • SpainKing on 25/07/2024 - 23:32

      I've heard rocket mass heaters are the bee's knees when it comes to wood heating

  • Ak850 on 26/07/2024 - 07:54

    Radiant heating is possible with an existing structure. I installed a system on my old place 12 years ago. We had a decent crawl space underneath, stapled radiant tubes to the underside of the floor boards, insulated underneath inbetween the floor joists, and hooked everything up to a combi boiler that did hot water for showers and the radiant system. If I was doing it again I would definitely go with a heat pump water heater. The biggest cost was the boiler (and I did all the install myself) so it wasn't the cheapest option, but it was so comfortable and silent. If I didn't also need cooling in my current house, I would 100% do it where I'm living now. Good luck!

    • JimB on 26/07/2024 - 11:05
      +1

      Few people realise how comfortable radiant heating is.

  • ArskinF on 26/07/2024 - 12:22

    Ceiling fans running on a "winter" setting work wonders and reduce heating energy consumption. Speaking from experience; large stone build house, all electric heating with A/C

  • Hangryuman on 26/07/2024 - 12:50

    radiant heating can be surprisingly pleasant e.g. outdoor restaurants with a panel radiator overhead nearby can turn an uncomfortably chilly outdoor table into a pleasant one.

    don't know the running costs - but if used only while occupied, and not wasting lots of energy heated unused spaces - then it might be acceptably efficient for making you feel warm, i.e. direct warmth radiated from warm surface to cold skin.

  • aretsa9 on 26/07/2024 - 14:45

    Thank you, everyone, for all your helpful comments. It has certainly clarified a lot of options for me. Have a lovely day :)

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