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[NSW] DIY LiFePO4 Battery Workshop 10am 21 July: $555 for 12V 105Ah 150A, $1499 12V 314Ah 250A @ Muller Energy

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[NSW] DIY LiFePO4 Battery Workshop 10am 21 July: $555 for 12V 105Ah 150A, $1499 12V 314Ah 250A @ Muller Energy
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Store RepMullerEnergy on 06/06/2024 - 15:54 mullerenergy.com.au (1372 clicks)
Last edited 07/06/2024 - 13:26 by 1 other user

We're offering a guided DIY workshop for anyone who might be interested in building a LiFePO4 battery. The workshop will be held at our warehouse in Somersby (just north of Sydney, near the dinosaur on the freeway) on the 21st of July.

All cells we use are EVE automotive grade (the highest grade there is, directly certified by the supplier).

The 105Ah kit includes 4x 105Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 cells, a 150A JBD smart BMS with Bluetooth, epoxy boards to separate the cells, as well as bus bars and bolts.
If you were to buy all the bits separately on our website, it would cost you $759.50.

The 314Ah kit includes 4x 314Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 cells, a custom 250A Muller Energy smart BMS (made by JBD), epoxy boards to separate the cells, as well as bus bars and nuts. The special feature about this BMS is that it's the only one in the world that can control a 5A active balancer. An independant review of it can be found here.
This BMS also comes with a Bluetooth dongle, a 5A active balancer and a touchscreen.
If you were to buy these components separately on our website, it would cost you $1,755.

So as you can see, there's a decent saving to be had here, plus a free workshop.
Consumables such as ring terminals, tape, hot glue (if desired) is also included in the price.

You can BYO tools and PPE if you want, otherwise, we can provide it for you.

As always, please feel free to ask any questions either on here, via email at [email protected] or over the phone on 0493 274 334.

Ruben 🙂

Electrical & Electronics 105Ah 12V 314Ah Battery Battery Monitor Control Panel LiFePO4 Lithium Battery Rechargeable Battery Workshop

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closed Comments

  • doobey1231 on 06/06/2024 - 16:02

    Just out of curiosity do you do anything similar for NiMH batteries? Costs me a fortune to replace through a third party, im almost certain that the only thing stopping me from doing it myself is the materials needed.

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 16:08
      +4

      Sorry, but we don't. It's a bit of an antiquated battery chemistry. If you wanted to replace them with LiFePO4 batteries and build those yourself (they'd need to be of a certain capacity for this though), you'd be more than welcome to come along. The smallest cells we have are 15Ah, but there are smaller ones out there.
      If it's something where you have a lot of smaller batteries to replace, please also feel free to give me a call and we could see if we can design a replacement product for you.

      • doobey1231 on 07/06/2024 - 09:20

        Ill get in contact next week when I have some staff back next week thank you. I believe the use of NiMH is for maximum stability - they are batteries used in medical devices and wheelchairs. But I am no battery expert so if there are other more cost effective options for this I would love to work something out.

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 07/06/2024 - 09:59

          Wheelchairs could definitely run off LiFePO4 and are very reliable, the most common failure point is the BMS (and that's quite rare), but you could run a redundant BMS if needed.
          Please do feel free to get in touch next week and we can discuss it then!

          • doobey1231 on 07/06/2024 - 10:21

            @MullerEnergy: Cheers mate, much appreciated. Last mob that did our battery packs were less then stellar.

  • w0mbat on 06/06/2024 - 16:07
    +5

    Wish you were in Perth!

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 16:08
      +9

      Given the Sydney weather, me too!

  • Che0063 on 06/06/2024 - 16:08
    +3

    Damnit! Any plans of doing this in Melbourne? Though I am genuinely considering driving up to Sydney for the day ahaha

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 16:09
      +2

      Sorry, not at this point in time. It would just be difficult to move all the components and tools needed just for a workshop.

      • glashalful on 07/07/2024 - 00:19

        Is it possible for you guys to do an online stream of the workshop & have a recording on youtube? (Very interested to attennt online.)
        Thanks

  • freekay on 06/06/2024 - 16:11

    Dumb but serious question: how many of these will I need to build my own residential solar battery?

    • Che0063 on 06/06/2024 - 16:18
      +2

      12v @ 105Ah ~ 1.2kWhr

      Residental battery backup is usually around 10-12kWhr

      Keeping in mind you would need ideally different BMSs and chargers to keep them in check. Not a good idea performance-wise to keep stacking the modules in series, but technically there is no safety downside

      • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 16:21

        You beat me to it. Yes, absolutely correct, thanks!

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 16:20
      +10

      It really depends on what voltage and capacity you're after.
      This might be more of a phone conversation than an Ozbargain message as there are so many variables. It really depends on what you want to run with the batteries (any heating or cooling takes the most energy by far).

      Generally, I would say you'd be better off using a 48V battery rather than a 12V battery and to be completely frank with you, I don't think I'd feel comfortable getting a beginner to build a 48V battery as their first battery. You can't touch the terminals on a 48V battery without precautions (you can with a 12V) and as P=V^2/R, a short-circuit could release close to 16 times the power as with a 12V battery.

      You could have a look at our 48V starter kit to give you some idea.

      • freekay on 06/06/2024 - 17:44
        +3

        Thanks for taking my stupidity seriously, and providing an insightful answer. I, too, think I'm way out of my depth, but it was more out of curiosity than anything else. I also think this workshop is a brilliant idea and tinkerers would get so much joy out of building their own battery. Hope it's a great success!

        • AssociatedRubenM @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 20:25

          No problem at all and thank you!

  • juicejuice on 06/06/2024 - 17:02
    +3

    Great concept! Shame I'm in QLD :D

  • tm001 on 06/06/2024 - 17:14

    Hi Ruben,
    You got some nice kits there.
    Are the batteries and the BMS IEC 62619 certified?
    (To comply with AS 3001.2:2002, looking at RV batteries)

    • AssociatedRubenM @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 18:10
      +2

      Yes, absolutely, the cells are certified.
      The BMS don't require certification under 62619, but they do meet the requirements as well.
      We've got the same 150A and 250A BMS in IEC 62619 certified batteries as well (battery level certification is voluntary, cell level certification is mandatory).

      I'll also be both standards that you mentioned there on the day and you'd be welcome to have a read, if you haven't done so already. 🙂

  • batrarobin on 06/06/2024 - 17:34
    +2

    Sorry might be a dumb question, what's the use case for these for most of us? Are these batteries for use in off-grid type of installations? Or is it something that you can connect to your existing grid connected solar system? What type of approvals would you need (if any) from the local utility (western power in my case) if you were to connect with your existing grid connected 5kw solar system?

    • knk on 06/06/2024 - 17:56

      Caravans / camping really. For the price for 420ah that's actually stupidly cheap for a lifepoe4 battery. Also that's a lot of capacity, we're talking a massive caravan or a lot of time off the grid.

      https://www.4wdsupacentre.com.au/specials/300ah-lithium-batt… < These are on the cheaper end and still double the price for less capacity.

      You'd want a bit more than 12v for a residential setup.

      • AssociatedRubenM @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 18:35
        +6

        Thanks, unfortunately I've got to make a correction to your statement, one that will make our product much worse at first glance.

        While you CAN make a 420Ah battery from four 105Ah cells, but you would need to connect then in parallel, meaning it would be a somewhat useless 3.2V 420Ah battery.
        If you connect then in series, you get a 12V 105Ah battery.

        So our products are definitely more expensive than Kings, but also of a much higher standard. Because of the price, I know they aren't for everyone, but our customers tend to be very happy with our products and our service.

        • knk on 06/06/2024 - 20:41
          +1

          Quite the miscalculation then, I completely missed that they were 3.2V. Still, with this deal you're barely more expensive than kings and you get bluetooth and at least more visibility over the components that are going into it.

    • AssociatedRubenM @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 18:25
      +2

      Not a dumb question at all!

      There are a large multitude of what our customers use our batteries for. I myself have built batteries for campervans, hybrid stater batteries, a lawnmower, an electric trolley, a forklift, a vacuum cleaner, etc.
      But it's fair to say that the majority of our batteries definitely go into vehicles as "leisure batteries".

    • philmarcracken on 06/06/2024 - 20:37
      +1

      What type of approvals would you need (if any) from the local utility (western power in my case) if you were to connect with your existing grid connected 5kw solar system?

      You wouldn't need any if you had a proper BMS and inverter. The goal would be to draw as little and send as little to the grid, and have a cutoff when the grid is down to send nothing no matter what. Power crews working nearby don't appreciate unexpected current coming from you

      • Jayp88 on 09/06/2024 - 14:13

        If you're running grid-tied it has to be an approved BESS (Battery Energy Storage System) and installed by an CEC approved electrician. Western Power also have to be notified and approve installation. https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/atoms/fil…

        However, no one is stopping you from installing a DIY battery. I have a 48v 16kwh battery connected to my Goodwe hybrid inverter, BMS talks to inverter and works flawlessly. Battery has been installed as per code, including isolation switch and location map located in meter box for emergency services.

  • BuyoTheCat on 06/06/2024 - 17:42

    sounds fun and practical. would totally go if I were close. Can i suggest maybe also including a battery box to diy powerstation

    • AssociatedRubenM @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 20:26

      Thank you. Yes, we're looking at offering optional extras.

    • knk on 06/06/2024 - 20:42

      I'm rocking an Aldi one I impulse bought for $20 the other week. My local still had a few the other day. Big one for an AGM though.

      • BuyoTheCat on 06/06/2024 - 20:49

        which Aldi is your local?

      • ocular on 06/06/2024 - 23:05

        Bought that same box from Aldi and put x4 EVE 280Ahr LF280K V3 Grade A LiFePO4 cells, epoxy sheets, fibre tape, flexible bus bars and JKBMS with 1A active balancer. All up imported plus some local gear for $900AUD (2 months lead time). It's not going to support the heavy current draw of Ruben's setups. I commend Ruben on sharing his wealth of knowledge with us here. His depth of knowledge shows in the quality gear he has designed for the Oz market. From memory you either adapted or got JBD to put in a voltage sensitive switch to connect to the capacitor active balancer so that it only balances above 3.4V. Any system where you can't monitor each cell voltage and don't have some sort of balancer > 1A is mickey mouse and will likely have a shortened lifespan.

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 07/06/2024 - 10:18

          Thanks! Yes, it's a customised JBD that has an optocoupler connected to the onboard passive balancer and uses it to switch the 5A Heltec active balancer that's supplied with the BMS. So it will turn on and off the same as the passive balancer.
          We use this BMS in all of our 200AH+ batteries. In our 105Ah batteries, we use a standard 150A JBD BMS and we do use the Heltec balancer that's set to switch off below 3.4V.

  • Unrvl on 06/06/2024 - 18:27

    hi Ruben,

    How's the sodium batteries going? I understand that they are not as good in density/kg and some other things, but I hear they could be great for batteries where size/weight doesn't matter (house batteries?)

    Are these coming down in price from the manufactures to be able to be significantly cheaper than lithium based chemistries? I believe you guys sell/sold some awhile back, id love to know more about your thoughts on these thanks!

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 06/06/2024 - 21:57

      While most people working with lithium batteries don't believe that sodium batteries will displace lithium batteries anywhere, but I actually agree with you in that there is good potential for them, especially in the stationary storage market.

      They are still somewhat of an unknown quantity, with manufacturers touting cycle life figures between 800 and 8000 cycles. I think over the next year the dust is going to settle and we'll gain a better understanding of what their capablitlites are actually like.

      I also think that sodium does have a few challenges to overcome, like having a huge voltage range. I'm confident that we'll get there, but I think it will be a couple of years before we will see sodium batteries really making a difference in the market, but after that, they may have quite a significant price advantage (currently they're slightly more expensive than LiFePO4).

      We never sold sodium batteries by the way, but we had engineering samples, some of which we sent out to reviewers. I've actually got one in a van that started my whole battery journey in something that I think is probably a world first. I'll see if I can make a video about it in the next few weeks (not THAT exciting, but I won't reveal what it is just yet).

      • CMH on 20/07/2024 - 15:43

        I'm interested in sodium batteries, and once the prices drop on those I'd consider putting one in for the home.

        Definitely put in a deal when you start getting them!

  • Poor Ass on 06/06/2024 - 18:51

    Got a workshop to convert lead acid 12v to 12v lithium on a car?

    • frugalferret on 06/06/2024 - 18:59

      Not a good idea to put LiFePO4 batteries under the bonnet. They don't like the heat from the engine. They also aren't the best for cranking power.

      • Poor Ass on 06/06/2024 - 19:09

        Not really much heat in an ev

        • EightImmortals on 07/06/2024 - 06:49

          You need more youtube in that case.

          • Poor Ass on 07/06/2024 - 09:05

            @EightImmortals: haven't found one that is detailed enough

            it's more with the terminal sizes

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 07/06/2024 - 10:03

          If it's an older extra-low-voltage EV, we can certainly have a look at it. Obviously anything over 120V (ripple free DC) needs to be done by a licenced electrician, but please feel free to give us a call and we can see if we can help. 0493 274 334.

  • ocular on 06/06/2024 - 23:25

    Those 48V 5kWh with 100Ah cells rack mountable boxes are good value. Are you doing any with 280 / 304Ah cells?

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 07/06/2024 - 10:05

      I've had this question a couple of times now. We don't. And the reason that we don't is that it just becomes too unmanageable for one or even two people.
      I can build a stack of 48V 100Ah (so 500Ah for the stack) by myself without any problem. If a battery weighed well above 100kg, it would be very difficult.

      Have you seen the racking that they come with (free if you buy four or more)? It effectively turns it into a larger capacity battery.

  • OkWing99 on 07/06/2024 - 08:51
    +2

    Need this in Melbourne.

  • ratman on 07/06/2024 - 11:17

    Nice! This would have been great earlier on, I've just taken delivery of 4x 304Ah eve cells, and about to start fumbling my way through assembly now.

    • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 07/06/2024 - 12:09

      If you don't have a BMS yet, feel free to purchase one from us and attend the workshop.
      But that would mean a waiting time of over a month for you and if you're anything like me, your fingers might get too itchy to wait that long! 😉

      • ratman on 07/06/2024 - 13:44

        Haha definitely, keen to have it fully wired up in the truck by next weekend - have all the bits except that horribly expensive high current cabling I need!

        • Store RepMullerEnergy @ Muller Energy on 07/06/2024 - 14:04

          If you'd like a quote for anything up to 95mm2 (0.08mm conductor size, tinned copper, silicone sheathed, super flexible), please feel free to send an email to [email protected]

          By the way, I don't like just going by a certain current being a certain cable size, I use a voltage drop calculator like this one: https://www.jcalc.net/voltage-drop-calculator-as3008

          • ratman on 07/06/2024 - 14:30

            @MullerEnergy: Awesome reference, thank you! Might shoot through an email once I've worked out what I need!

  • kealii on 07/06/2024 - 14:58
    +1

    @Muller Energy, is it possible to build multiple 4S packs and then string them together to make 48V (e.g. 12V+12V+12V+12V packs and 4x BMS modules)? Also any considerations if you paralleled two of these 48V strings to double the capacity?

    I have a 48V battery inverter gifted to me, so was quite interested in your post and workshop.

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