E10 Fuel - Good or Bad?

snugglepuff on 09/04/2024 - 09:32
Last edited 09/04/2024 - 09:35

Lots of conflicting information out there.

https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/e10-fue… states 'compatible' with most modern petrol cars and no reason not to use if manufacturer allows

Local mechanic- DON'T use it!!! BAD for your engine. I checked my car model and it is compatible.

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/is-e10-better-than-91-ben… less efficient, more economical, less CO2 emissions

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/everyday… - only more economical if e10 cheaper by more than 4 cents.

Some expert opinion and reliable sources of info appreciated too. Thanks in advance.

Poll Options

  • 13
    Yes I use E10- good for environment
  • 117
    Yes I use E10- cheaper
  • 33
    Sometimes use E10
  • 222
    Don't use E10- bad for engine
  • 89
    Don't use E10- not cheaper
Automotive Fuel

Comments

  • Guerilla89 on 09/04/2024 - 14:52
    +1

    The point of E10 was to help the environment but making E10 burns more fossils than it creates so it's pointless. It's only being held up by subsidies to big companies of monocrops. The whole thing is a farce, don't support it or you're just choosing to cost tax payers.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 09/04/2024 - 18:31
    +2

    my own car i wouldnt touch E-10 rental car fill up e-10 ALL THE WAY

  • SlickMick on 10/04/2024 - 08:38
    +1

    My car says it requires 95 and ethanol is fine.
    I don't see anyone selling 95 with ethanol, but some have 94 with ethanol. So close!
    Would the 94 with ethanol be sufficient with a bit of a top up with 95??
    (new car, so I won't be doing anything that would void warranty)

    • brownsound on 10/04/2024 - 08:50
      -2

      nope stick to 95RON if you care about your car (is it turbocharged?)

  • LFO on 10/04/2024 - 11:05
    +3

    Used E10 way back in the past for a then brand-new Daihatsu.

    Engine run perfectly well and fuel consumption was OK … but … after about 10 years a rubber/plastic/who-knows-what of the pipe where we fill up the fuel tank went bad and got a very strong smell of petrol every time we filled to max. It could be seen, underneath, that it was leaking/permeating fuel.

    In short: E10 did not affect the engine or anything related to the engine but E10 negatively affected (probably) a rubber/plastic hose.

  • 2esc on 10/04/2024 - 11:27

    Use what your car says to use simple.

    Some small motors dont like it though so definitely check what they suggest. People have a habit of chucking the cheapest fuel in when the motor and especially components are not designed for that fuel

  • 82norm on 10/04/2024 - 13:24
    +1

    Can I mention the “Special Diesel’ scam here to?

    • mirz on 10/04/2024 - 17:51
      +1

      Or Premium Diesel 😂

  • dj69 on 10/04/2024 - 13:48
    +1

    My car petrol order preference is 91/E10/95/98
    My boat petrol order preference is 95/98/91

  • stedmaster on 10/04/2024 - 14:08

    Unless you know your car actually says it can run on 91 or 95, you will probably find its more suited to 98. I hear so many cars doing little pinks on acceleration or a load (hill) these days.

    You can also void car warranties too, I know Volkswagen have been known to do this with golfs.

    • spaceflight on 10/04/2024 - 20:38
      +2

      Unless you know your car actually says it can run on 91 or 95, you will probably find its more suited to 98.

      No it isn't
      Your car is only more suited to 98 if the manufacturer tells you it is.

      I hear so many cars doing little pinks on acceleration or a load (hill) these days.

      No you don't.
      Modern cars have anti knock sensors to retard timing if a lower octane fuel is used compared to what is needed.

      You can also void car warranties too, I know Volkswagen have been known to do this with golfs.

      No car manufacturer will void your warranty for using a fuel that the car is designed for

      • stedmaster on 11/04/2024 - 14:08

        No you don't

        Same for Both
        Certified Pre-owned Limited Warranty
        5 Year Unlimited Kilometre New Vehicle Warranty

        What is not covered by the New Vehicle, Paint or Through Corrosion Warranties?

        Where your claim does not fall under the term “defects from manufacture” it will not be covered by the New Vehicle, Paint and Through Corrosion Warranties. This includes claims in relation to:

        …

        Fuel, oil and lubricants:

        Any defects resulting from (i) the use of inappropriate fuel, oil or lubricants, including the use of the incorrect octane rated fuel; and (ii) dirt or water in fuel, oil, coolant or other fluids.

        Image of VW fuel filler label specifying 95 Minimum Octane.

        Here is one from a Golf specifying minimum 98 Octane

        I wonder what happens when individuals use a lower octane fuel in a car that's not designed for it. Does the car immediately know it has lower octane fuel? or does it need to first identify preignition (often indicated by the telltale sound of pinking) before making adjustments? of which adjustments may vary based on factors like load and acceleration. The onset is subtle but audible.

        Many a discussion has gone on about this…

        • spaceflight on 12/04/2024 - 21:20

          No you don't

          Perhaps you didn't read or understand properly

          You said

          You can also void car warranties too, I know Volkswagen have been known to do this with golfs.

          And I said

          No car manufacturer will void your warranty for using a fuel that the car is designed for

          So you don't need to tell us what the warranty policy says because the policy says what I said it does and that no car manufacturer will void your warranty for using a fuel that the car is designed for

          I wonder what happens when individuals use a lower octane fuel in a car that's not designed for it. Does the car immediately know it has lower octane fuel?

          No, cars don't have chemical sensors to detect the chemical composition of fuel

          or does it need to first identify preignition

          That's what they do

          • stedmaster on 15/04/2024 - 17:24

            @spaceflight: You didn't understand my initial comment and your following comments have been pointless…

      • Boostland on 12/04/2024 - 17:41

        maybe E10 instead of diesel or diesel instead of E10 might void it

  • DefariumZ on 10/04/2024 - 14:12
    +3

    I ran a test some years back when it came out in NZ - I lived in Rotorua (small town) and only used my car for weekend trips to Auckland (known distance and set route etc).
    The engine was tuned to run E10 (Nissan Serena 2.0 petrol).

    The mileage was less than 91 such that the cost per km was essentially the same. Environmentally E10 turns out same or worse than 91 anyway (despite the public perception).
    Higher risk of rubber seal deterioration with Ethanol too.

    TLDR: e10 has no benefits other than lower numbers on the petrol counter (cost per km is break even with 91 in most cases).

    • Dsiee on 11/04/2024 - 09:08
      +1

      Yeah, this isn't UN expected if you just calculate the energy content of both fuels. Ethanol has less energy per litre than petrol so removing some petrol and putting in ethanol will decrease the total energy thus the range. That is where e the whole "it is only worth it if it is more than 4c cheaper" rule of thumb comes from.

  • curtturtle on 10/04/2024 - 16:00
    +2

    Most people claiming it will damage your car have nothing but "trust me bro" as a source. Most modern passenger cars are now designed to take e10. Older cars had issues with it. Obviously, you aren't going to use it in a performance car that needs 98 like an RS audi.

    You'll even hear people boast that they use 98 in their bog stock normal car, when they are just pissing money away as their compression ratio doesn't get anything extra out of it over 95.

    My car says it "can" run e10 but the manual says that it is recommended to run 95. This is mostly because it drives pretty average on it. It will when it is the only option, use e10 but I tend to stick to the recommended 95. It also tends to take a while after you switch from e10 to 95 for the fuel system to realise it has to chance the fuel mapping.

  • mistermarky on 10/04/2024 - 18:17
    -4

    Don't use anything less than 91 for our petrol car. I've used e10 in the past and the entire tank the car was pinging, couldn't empty it quick enough.

    • spaceflight on 10/04/2024 - 20:33
      +3

      E10 has a higher octane rating than 91ULP

      If there was knocking it was in your head.

      • mistermarky on 11/04/2024 - 15:30
        -2

        I'm not and it was only knocking when I used e10. So I know what I heard and what I said.

        • spaceflight on 11/04/2024 - 16:36
          +3

          Knocking is early detonation of fuel.

          Early detonation occurrs when the octane level is lower then it should be.

          Ethanol is an octane booster so it increases octane levels.

          Regular ULP is 91 octane.
          E10 is 94 octane (91 octane fuel with 10% ethanol)

          E10 is harder to ignite so 91ULP will cause knocking before E10 does.

          • mistermarky on 12/04/2024 - 10:36

            @spaceflight: Yes i know all this and that's all well and good. The car was running perfectly before e10, i would put 91 upto 98 in it and never heard anything. Moment E10 went it, that's when knocking occurred.

            You can throw all the figures and stats all you like, end of the day E10 for myself was bad and will never use it again. Just because something could be good for you, doesn't mean it's good for everyone.

            • Randolph Duke on 12/04/2024 - 12:18

              @mistermarky: Can you please donate your car to scientists to study since it clearly doesn’t operate under the same scientific rules r/notlikeothercars

    • MrThing on 12/04/2024 - 15:23
      -1

      dumb comment

  • Kranbone on 10/04/2024 - 18:38

    It's fine as long as your car can run it and it's more than 5% cheaper than 91 or standard fuel. Just ensure you run through the fuel and don't let it sit.

    It's not recommended for older vehicles or carb cars.

    My own personal experience, 2 cars, same make, model, engine and transmission. Only off by a few years. One runs 91 and the other e10. E10 had the cleaner tank when changing out the fuel pump. Both cars never sat.

  • spaceflight on 10/04/2024 - 20:28
    +1

    Even if you are filling up with 91ULP you can still be filling up with E10 without knowing it.

    The Australian fuel quality standards allow up to 10% (by volume) of ethanol in unleaded petrol
    https://www.legislation.gov.au/F2019L00455/latest/text

    • sumyungguy on 10/04/2024 - 20:52

      Ethanol blend means petrol that, as tested in accordance with the Fuel Quality Standards (Petrol) Determination 2019, contains more than 1% ethanol. Service stations have to display “Contains up to x% ethanol”.

  • TEER3X on 10/04/2024 - 20:56
    +1

    If I'm not mistaken pretty much all fuel in the US is 10% ethanol based. I doubt it has any real negative effect on most vehicles

    • lint on 12/04/2024 - 09:49
      +2

      Yeah I'm curious if everyone who says E10 damages the engines over time have any studies to back this up. All I see are people either saying their mechanic told them so, or stating it as fact without sources at all.

  • gentlekoala5906 on 10/04/2024 - 22:32
    -3

    They add ethanol, hello no 🤮

    • Euphemistic on 11/04/2024 - 09:01

      Becaause…..?

      • pegaxs on 11/04/2024 - 10:04
        +1

        Because "Uncle Ian" said "Yeah nah, that stuff shit, aye…"

  • Randolph Duke on 11/04/2024 - 06:54
    +2

    Real men drive cars tuned for E85.

    • eek on 11/04/2024 - 08:57
      +1

      I used to go fill up at United after 10pm with 60L of jerry cans in the trunk. Occasionally I'd have another person pull up behind me. So they'd have to wait for me to fill up approx 50L car fuel tank and three 20L jerry cans. I'd occasionally apologise if I've just started pumping, but they were always very understanding and some had a few jerry cans themselves to fill up :)

  • bonezAU on 11/04/2024 - 09:24

    We don't have E10 in WA, there are 14 servos in the whole state selling E85 for $2.53-$2.79 per litre, but I'm guessing that's totally different since it's 85% ethanol.

  • foxpants on 11/04/2024 - 09:27

    Both of my 2017+ petrol turbo cars are tuned and benefit from higher octane, as provided by the tuner, and one even calls for 95+ RON stock, a previous tuned car also had different maps for certain octanes.

    So if you want really spicy fuel (and want to throw economy to the wind for a tank) do about 1/4 fill with E85, and top up with 98 for a ~100 RON effective fuel somewhere around E30, provided of course the injectors can handle the increased flow required and your car will actually benefit from it, I would not do this for a bone stock vehicle.

    • Randolph Duke on 11/04/2024 - 10:09
      +1

      To repeat - do not do this unless your car is tuned or supports ethanol, the car will be under-fueled as the ECU won’t be tuned to ask for it. RON isn’t the only consideration here. If using different ethanol percentages the car needs an ethanol sensor to adjust the tune as needed.

      • foxpants on 11/04/2024 - 17:23

        Yep agreed and like I said originally too, absolutely not for a stock, untuned vehicle. Do your research, some cars take to it decently and have the appropriate fuel system to support some / lots of ethanol, many / most don't.

  • dbnewman89 on 11/04/2024 - 10:09
    +5

    Facts:

    • E10 is higher octane - 94/95 vs 91 in regular
    • Although the burn efficiency is lower, modern cars with a knock sensor can counter this by adjusting timing to make use of the higher octane and equalise on price:performance
    • Ethanol is a solvent, it will break down all the bad shit lingering in your fuel tank, lines, intake manifold, and coated on top of your pistons (This is why many people report it "runs bad" when they first switch, because it takes a while to clean all this shit out). 98 also does this with added detergents.
    • All modern cars use ethanol safe rubbers etc to handle this solvent, older cars did not which caused the rubber to break down and be ingested into the engine
    • Many race/performance cars don't just stop at E10, they run E85 which is only 15% petroleum

    so tldr; If your car has a knock sensor, E10 is better than 91, if it doesn't it's still better long-term however there is an efficiency reduction, but the cost difference would be similar to running premium (95 octane) anyway so same-same.

    Caveats: Some servos sell absolute garbage tier E10 that is only rated at 91 octane, avoid this… It means they started with <90ron before adding ethanol. Always check the rating, it's a lot rarer these days, but it does happen.

  • nomadspartan on 11/04/2024 - 10:21
    +2

    We use e10 in our Mazda CX-9 as the car's computer can adjust to whatever mix of octane is in the fuel tax. The higher the octane rating, the more power it will produce. So we just use e10 (94RON) as we pretty much just view it as a bargain 95RON. Also, the e10 is fine to use according to the manufacturer.

  • mrhugo on 11/04/2024 - 12:52
    +1

    Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it will pull water out of the air.

    Granted it’s not going to absorb much for separation to happen (the petrol and ethanol will mix, but will not mix with water), so will rest on the bottom of the tank. Add oxygen and you get rust. If the pumps pickup point is at the bottom, you are pumping water, well at least a very small amount. TBH not enough to cause immediate failure, but over years?

    For service stations, UPSS E10 needs to dip checked daily for water, and water removed if above threshold. For all other fuels it’s a weekly check. Unless after heavy rain, then all UPSS need to be checked.

    My bigger concern is ethanol compatibility with every seal, gasket, tube, component, from the tank to the cylinder.

    The manufacturer may only care that components above wouldn’t degrade/fail during the warranty period. The fate of a seal is to fail, the fate of a tube is to rupture. How long till that happens, 10 year, 15 years, 20 years?

    Also, I hear that E10 is a false economy i.e., cost per 100KM’s.

    For me, the f**k all savings, if that, and questionable longevity concerns, and the feedback I get from mechanics makes me think that E10 isn’t worth the hassle.

  • Cluster on 11/04/2024 - 15:17
    +4

    It's amazing that we're still having this debate in 2024, seeing as E10 has been available for over 15 years. If there was a problem in using the fuel I'm sure we would have noticed by now.

    • Euphemistic on 11/04/2024 - 15:53
      +4

      Biggest problem with E10 is the social media experts. The fuel is fine.

  • lddv04 on 11/04/2024 - 19:24

    This topic again?

  • CuteWittleCorgi on 11/04/2024 - 21:17

    Bad. Electricity fuel good.

  • Save Medicare on 12/04/2024 - 07:13

    My car, a naturally aspirated mazda, says it can use ULP95 or RON94 E10. clearly the e10 is significantly cheaper than ulp95. What should i use?

    • Euphemistic on 12/04/2024 - 07:59

      Why wouldnt you use e10?

      Do some objective testing for fuel economy. Run 3-4 tanks of either. Make sure you drive 'normally' for all tests. Record distance, litres, cost (note the price difference each time as price fluctuates). Calculate fuel consumption. Maths. Work out which is best - for you.

      If you are 'testing performance', make sure it is blind tested. Ie make sure the driver dossnt know what fuel it is. Seat of the pants performance improvement is highly subjective and swayed by personal beliefs related to how much the fuel costs.

  • Crossgates on 12/04/2024 - 08:29
    +1

    Some misconceptions around knock sensors and what they actually can do - a knock sensor is part of the whole electronic fuel injection system so have been on cars since the late 80s. They're designed to protect the engine against poor quality fuel/injector failure/some other fueling component failure by retarding the timing when they detect knock conditions. Most can't and won't increase the timing past the factory parameters to get you more power from higher RON fuel. Some can, but most won't - if your owner's manual only lists one grade of fuel, you won't get a power increase from putting more expensive, higher RON fuel in.

  • Bignudge on 12/04/2024 - 11:33
    +1

    I use E10 cause I just wanna burn some alcohol. That' about it.

  • MrThing on 12/04/2024 - 15:21

    yawn some tafe mechanics and foil hat "do your own reasearch" sheeple think big oil is in bed with big car to make you buy their E10?

    If the OEM for your car has said E10 is suitable for your car…….guess what, its ok for your car

  • DemocracyManifest on 12/04/2024 - 21:23

    My Camry goes between 95 and E10 and there is no difference I find, besides psychological

  • 10fps on 13/04/2024 - 01:32
    +1

    2004 Honda Accord Euro. E10 all day, everyday. Has a sticker on the fuel door "E10 suitable".

    If it was that big of a problem the technology would have been phased out and major recalls would have happened.

  • OzBozo on 18/04/2024 - 22:53

    It may be worse for the environment as they cut down rainforest to grow sugar cane or whatever they use to make ethanol. Probably the amazon

    • Euphemistic on 19/04/2024 - 11:36

      That is a legit concern. Research what happened to the US corn industry when incentives went to making ethanol rather than growing food.

  • payless69 on 22/04/2024 - 12:02

    done the rtfm for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion

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