If they pare back the promised stage 3 tax cuts would you:
Stage 3 Tax Cuts - Who Will You Vote for Now?
minijumbuk on 24/01/2024 - 07:31
Last edited 26/01/2024 - 07:18 by 2 other users
Last edited 26/01/2024 - 07:18 by 2 other users
Poll Options
- 1144Voted labor, will continue to vote labour. It's the right thing to do.
- 209Voted labor but won't anymore, breaking election promises is the wrong thing to do.
- 116Didn't vote labor but will now, he's doing the right thing.
- 445Don't vote labor and won't next time, breaking election promises is the wrong thing to do.
Comments
Why are the tax cuts a bad idea?
Look at their deficit blow outs and how many trillions of dollars it is right now. Taxes pay for services which the country needs.
And pays for the waste we don't need, like other country's wars
Reagan began as a Democrat, viewing Franklin D. Roosevelt as "a true hero"
Good to know.
What do you think about income tax accounting for 50% of tax revenue and corporate tax only 20%?
I think it's an absolute travesty, but we have to keep the pollies mates happy.
I don't see any corporation going to the doctor, getting a subsidised drug from the PBS or sending their kids to school.
So I largely don't care.
Remember Qantas and their $2.7 billion handout?
@Mistredo: Your point?
I'm not excusing corporations… I'm just not overly worked up about people paying tax.
Todays move will push higher income earners to take advantage of the current system in different ways; Novated leasing, negative gearing, increasing rents on their rental properties, pushing the maximum into self managed super etc etc. Labor no doubt contemplates but does not care (as is offers no political benefit) that those earning the most are generally the highest educated (or if not well educated the "smartest" when it comes to management of time/money) and will further find ways to use the tools available to minimise their income taxes. It is populist to take from the rich and give to the poor(er) but how does this incentivize hard work, career progression, productivity etc. Everyone in life has to play they hand they are dealt, higher income earners now will just work the broken taxation system even harder to their advantage and feel they have an axe to grind over the theft of the "stage 3" tax cuts. (Media fails to mention stages 1 and 2 which benefited the lower tax brackets have been in force for years, the highest earners had to wait the longest, which was fair enough - now at the 11th hour there is a rug pull).
Wont someone please think of those poor high income earners!
So instead of getting an easy tax cut, you are saying they are going to have to go do all this other stuff which is harder and more complex. However what you fail to consider is that they could have got the easy tax cut and still gone out and done all those things you mention in your post.
Yeah I don't understand this whole "Poor people making hundreds of thousands and needing to pay more tax. How will they ever survive?" sob story.
If your low to middle income you're really struggling and living paycheck to paycheck. Do tax cuts make sense to help? Yes. Once you stsrt hitting the 37% bracket money stops being so important. If you're living paycheck to paycheck on a high salary then it's more likely you just suck at saving or have made some really bad investment choices.
You don't all of a sudden decide to stop progressing your career or working hard because of higher tax. That's such a moronic take and suggests you weren't really a hard worker in the first place.
ALL income numbers should pay same amount of tax percentage.
Yep! Russia has an 11% flat tax. Everybody suddenly wants to work.
Yep! Russia has an 11% flat tax. Everybody suddenly wants to work.
Their standard of living though…
As a man of fighting age, I'm quite happy living in and paying Australian tax rates.
I love the people jumping on the OuTRaGE bandwagon, especially News.com.au and Sky.
As far as i can tell, giving everyone a tax rebate is better than only giving the top 10% of Australia a tax rebate. (i'm in the latter but still support giving everyone a bigger slice of the pie rather than just me). The alternative is for the Liberals to look after their rich mates, this doesn't fill me with hope.
Now if the tax brackets moved with CPI then i'd get on board.
I agree, Society works better when everyone benefits instead of the people at the top. People fail to realise that if the discontentment at the bottom ferments too long, thats how you get revolutions and weird electoral parties voted in that destroy the social fabric.
Which is more palatable, a billionaire buying another yacht or a country having a decent social safety net.
Middle of the day and the R/Australia posters are running bananas
What's the jist? I unsubscribed from that cesspool a while ago
We already have a safety net. How can you be discontent with getting free money? That you aren't getting more free money?
As far as i can tell, giving everyone a tax rebate is better than only giving the top 10% of Australia a tax rebate. (i'm in the latter but still support giving everyone a bigger slice of the pie rather than just me). The alternative is for the Liberals to look after their rich mates, this doesn't fill me with hope.
i agree with your premise but they already did much earlier it was stage 1 and stage 2 tax cuts…i lose out from these changes like you, however my wife gains so from a personal income POV it doesnt make too much of a difference to my household but i dont support the change because if the bracket WHERE index the top bracket would be 250k or something which shows how much the tax system is ripping off all workers
Now if the tax brackets moved with CPI then i'd get on board.
100 percent support this
if the LNP had a bit of brains they would promise to do this when they get into and take the power away from the political parties and into simple math for all current and future generations - it probably is the best and most common sense tax reform we need indexed brackets probably why you wont hear ALP or LNP discuss it and Greens would probably oppose it
How can you say they're breaking an election promise, when they're just making slight adjustments? Even after the adjustments, people on $200k will still get a far larger amount from these tax cuts than people on $100k or $50k will.
Nooooo the most important thing is sticking to decisions made years ago not adapting to changing economic climate
That's the thing I don't understand - not adapting to change is significantly worse than just sticking to promises that no longer make sense.
If I had to stick to the shit decisions I made even a few months ago I'd be miserable. It's good to change and adapt.
If you want to leave the option open to make adjustments, you shouldn't go in front of cameras time and time again and declare the tax cuts will be passed in full. Voters don't like lying politicians.
Voters don't like lying politicians.
*The top 10% don't like lying politicians.
The other 90% are all for this.
What gets conveniently lost (or omitted) in this discussion about the Stage 3 cuts, and the rush to express resentment that higher income earners are receiving a greater $ benefit than lower income earners, is that higher income earners pay proportionally more in tax than lower income earners.
Based on the published tax scales, someone earning $50,000 currently pays $6,717 in tax. Meanwhile someone earning $200,000 (ie 4 time the income) pays $60,667 in tax ( 9 times the tax)
So earn four times the income, pay 9 times the tax
After Stage 3, someone earning $50,000 will pay $6,592 in tax, and someone on $200,000 will pay $51,592 in tax (7.9 times the tax)
So the higher income earner continues to pay a much larger proportion of their income in tax than the lower income earner
At the same time, someone on $50k receives a significant number of government rebates not available to the higher income earner, so effectively pays no tax at all
Your analysis leaves a bit out.
By having a larger income, people on $200k or more usually have the capacity to buy multiple properties and more expensive properties, thereby raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars (sometimes millions) in capital gains as a result of current housing/taxation/banking policies, and as a result of the pressure they put on the market by buying up all the properties.
The amount of housing capital gains made by the wealthy portion of Australians often makes these income tax figures we are talking about look almost irrelevant in comparison.
In addition, they also receive tax benefits for those properties via CGT discount, negative gearing, etc.
It's important to note that property investors can obtain great wealth this way by doing virtually nothing.
This is just one example of how to look at the wider picture.
As the other person pointed out, the more you earn the easier it is to earn more regardless of tax.
Also, you have cherry picked certain incomes and taxes to make it seem worse than it is.
As someone who'd benefit from the tax cuts, after a certain point the money is honestly meaningless. Even if the tax rate went up I'd still be earning so much more than others which allows me to make even more due to investing.
Because they're looking for a soundbite, and "broken promise" is this week's one. Never mind the fact they spent the last 9 years lying about everything under the sun.
Not enough options in this poll.
How about: Didn't vote Labor, and Won't vote Labor next time (because I usually vote Greens), yet I approve of making tweaks to the tax cuts.
Instead of just the top earners getting tax cuts, the govt wants to make it fairer for everyone, so even the bottom end earners get some benefit.
How the f can you argue against that?If it was to be fairer for all, where was the high earners tax cut under stage 1 and 2?
You know they benefit from the 37k going to 45k and 90k going to 120k tax brackets being increased right? Do you understand progressive tax rates?
They just didn't get the LMITO, but they still had to pay less in their income tax….
Lot of butthurt big income earners on OzBargain crying about losing out on chunky tax cut so lower income groups can also benefit.
But we already knew that I guess
a progressive tax system is by definition unfair. You could argue that making everything a flat tax system would be fairer.
Let's also argue against Stage 1 & 2 then?
What gets conveniently lost (or omitted) in this discussion about the Stage 3 cuts, and the rush to express resentment that higher income earners are receiving a greater $ benefit than lower income earners, is that higher income earners pay proportionally more in tax than lower income earners.
Based on the published tax scales, someone earning $50,000 currently pays $6,717 in tax. Meanwhile someone earning $200,000 (ie 4 time the income) pays $60,667 in tax ( 9 times the tax)
So earn four times the income, pay 9 times the tax
After Stage 3, someone earning $50,000 will pay $6,592 in tax, and someone on $200,000 will pay $51,592 in tax (7.9 times the tax)
So the higher income earner continues to pay a much larger proportion of their income in tax than the lower income earner
At the same time, someone on $50k receives a significant number of government rebates not available to the higher income earner, so effectively pays no tax at all
Someone on the lower tax bracket looks at their bare necessity groceries than someone on a higher income. Thats why I think tax cuts at the bottom are more beneficial to society.
Even though Louis CK is cancelled, I do like one of his analogies from his show. His daughter complaining about someone having more than them. He said that shouldnt be the test, it should be whether the other person has enough.
Someone on a lower income is definitely doing it tougher than someone who is going to benefit from the old Stage 3 tax cuts and I have no issue with them getting more support.
You omitted that Stage 1 was temporary, the other stages are/were permanent.
hwhich party will stop importing 500k+ uber drivers every year
This.
At the next election I'm voting for whoever reduced immigration the most. The damage being done to our economy and society via increased inflation, lack of homes, overcrowding, reduction in per capita GDP, social cohesion etc outweighs whatever these tax cuts will bring.
realistically neither major will do it, it's too expedient
mass immigration benefits are for
- wealthy (e.g. property investors)
- big business
- universities
- government- prop up gdp figures (ignoring the fact we're in a per capita recession)
- compensate for declining fertility rates amongst existing population. this happens for a multitude of reasons: education, cost of living amongst others. Note that this rate also decreases for 2nd gen immigrants
the rest of us get to enjoy diversity and expensive housing (buying or renting)
expect massive social problems when the generations priced out of homeownership (some of Y and most of Z) reach retirement age. owning ones own home is pretty central to the calculus of the retirement system in this country.Pre-covid, successive Australian governments banged on constantly about how we hadn't had a recession for over a quarter of a century. Thing is, without massive, unwarranted migration we would have probably had several recessions in that timeframe. Recessions are hard but are sometimes necessary in order to reset the economy and make things more efficient and productive again.
This, they'll lie about it though. Albo said in opposition he was gonna train young Aussies lol. In my area rents got under $300 when the country was shut, now there's nothing under $450, my recent wage rises have been worth about $55 a week of which my rental took it all and more. All food, haircuts, petrol, entertainment price rises have come out of diminishing quality of life in this country and there's a pretty big culprit. Mass migration with no houses and no plans.
quick to forget albo's upbringing in public housing aren't we
This, they'll lie about it though. Albo said in opposition he was gonna train young Aussies lol
Huh? 300,000 Fee-Free TAFE enrolments strengthen priority workforces. They said they'll get to 465K Fee-Free TAFE courses. They're more than half way there.
None of them will, have to have that GDP number go up, and cheap workers for their mates.
The damage being done to our economy and society via increased inflation
Has nothing to do with immigration.
lack of homes
Again, has nothing to do with immigration, has everything to do with the fact that Australians have an obsession with home ownership, partly because we have horrendously terrible tenancy laws which treats tenants like garbage, and that everyone here can't accept living in a small unit or apartment the way that most people around the world do.
overcrowding
You live in Perth mate, what are you on about? Everything I'm there, I see f-all people around.
reduction in per capita GDP
What are you on about? We've seen steady increases to GDPpc for ages now
social cohesion
Nothing to do with immigration, most immigrants who come here are well educated, are well behaved, and are great contributing members of our society. We have some of the strictest immigration requirements of any country (including the US, Canada, most of Europe…etc.). I have no qualms with cracking down on anti-social behaviour, but the source of that is not immigrants.
Social Cohesion
Blame the greens and Labor who want to bring all the scarred war refugees , eg sudanese in melb , Lebanese, Iraqis In Syd etc. If they had their way, you would bring all of Afganistan/middle east in australia ( they would give your houses to them, tell your wifes to pleasure them , and tell you to get lost and sleep on the streets) .Labor, they see them as their future vote bank .They are the ones who cause your "social cohesion breakdown", cause all the negative stereotypes ( at times justified).
Most of your legal immigrants are the best the world has to offer , and the sort of immigrants that the other nations are competing to attract . @gdsamp ,Even the disparaging comments about 500k uber drivers is way off the mark. I have seen indians on $150k plus salaries still work for uber. Why ? because they work hard and its in their DNA to want to get ahead in life .Not for nothing are indians the most wealthy immigrant cohort in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U…Heres another statistic, India, China , Israel and Canada were the top four countries that generated the most billionaires in the US. That means they created wealth, job and capital for their adopted country.Look at how much wealth the US would have lost out if it were to say , "SHUT THE DOOR" .
See a common thread here?, 3 of these 4 are countries are vilified and ostracised now. Do you see palestine , afganistan etc or in another vein white countries like UK , Australia( except Murdoch, and I would say he has caused the US and the world to lose way more that gain) etc in this list?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/04/18/a-record-e…These are the sort of immigrants a country wants and needs if it is to prosper in the future , not the junk that comes in as refugees .Unfortunately, the good get lumped in with the shite.
PS: I am not Indian/Chinese/Israeli .
Bring on the self-driving AI taxis!?
What are all our Uber drivers going to do? Most will still be here, unemployed and a drain on the taxpayer.
Until we know what the 'new' brackets are, surely this is all moot? If they play around with the lower tax brackets the people earning in the higher brackets will receive this as well as the people in the lower brackets, but it will be less than the larger amount they would have received in the stage 3 form that was previously agreed to that only benefitted higher earners.
If there is a cutoff point at >150k where you don't benefit any more, wouldn't you still benefit a bit? Would those just over that threshold be denied ANY cut or would they receive the same cuts as those under 150k, with diminishing returns for higher earners? And to get 'under' that threshold can't you sacrifice to super etc.?
Complaining about a politician breaking their word is like complaining that water is wet! The old crew did more than their fair share, same as the new crew.
Tell me you're brainwashed by mainstream media without telling me.
Slow down, Aristotle.
About a month after the election I drafted a re-jigged tax cut policy, namely, increasing the tax free threshold with some other tweaks, and sent it into the treasurer's office. Included some comprehensive projections as to how it would affect revenue and proportions of the voterbase.
I've never not heard back from an MP/their office before this one so… I figure they must've had it in mind since at least the first week or two after the election and good on them.
I have friends in retail who work full time and take home less than $50k after tax. Dole bludgers/students/whoever, get close to $15-20k a year in cash and benefits .. so really, people are working full time, commuting, organising their life around shifts etc and are only $30k a year better off for it. It is abysmal.
Just wait till you hear how much single mothers on centrelink are paid Yep, $2700 a fortnight… including $3k payment to immunise your kids.
Why work when you can get paid to churn out kids!
System is cooked.
A mother of 9 bro. 9 kids. Reckon she's buying jewellery and shit with that?
Edit: and also ACA… lol
Reckon she's buying jewellery and shit with that?
It's more once you're an adult, if you conciously churn out 9 kids knowing you can't afford it at what stage should the taxpayer be on the hook.
@Drakesy: Somewhat makes sense, but I don't think we should complicate public policy based on this one lady that A Current Affair was able to find who's pumping out kids for money. (Wonder how much ACA was offering for the story)
It's likely not a common occurrence at all, and I would hate for in that rare occurrence, those children would have to live with less due to their mother rorting the system that in totality isn't costing the government that much.
@Drakesy: I mean… At least hopefully those 9 kids all go on to grow the economy and fill critical vacancies right?
Really though, welfare is filled with so many outliers and bizarre cases that could only be dealt with individually it would just clog up the already broken system if they tried.
The issue is just that retail and other low wage workers get the life squeezed out of them by huge companies bent on cutting costs (Luxottica, Colesworth, petrol stations, etc) and have absolutely no levers to pull, can't quiet quit, unions neutered, very hard for them to make the jump to a white collar job… and it's all to be $30k better off (before work-related expenses) for what is about a 2500 hour commitment annually.
I'm not saying hand over the means of production but it just leaves me little hope for the future knowing that there is an entire class of people who are essentially slaves to corporations in 2024 Australia.
I would like to see substantial tax reform rather than a series of changes that are decided by the impact of 15-second media grabs. Things like income tax restructure, a substantial overhaul of the Rent Resource Tax and changes to Neg Gearing for owners of multiple investment properties.
But ignoring the politics of this [likely] move for a moment, it seems to me that it will leave more people better off and fewer worse off. Plus there will be more income overall to fund public services.
As for a broken promise, my brother has a coffee mug that says BACK IN BLACK. IIRC that did not actually happen, did it?I would like to see substantial tax reform … changes to Neg Gearing for owners of multiple investment properties.
Certain political suicide. Suggestion of changes to NG gave us Scott Morrison.
Almost certainly. The Professional Indignation Generators would be on their high horses in a minute if the government tried to do something positive and substantial. But I'd still like to see changes
Incomes are not the issue. Inheritance and lack of capital gains taxes and houses as ponzi schemes are the issue. High income earners earn it and contribute. People that inheritate 2 million from mum and dad on a shack they bought in Camberwell 20 years ago DO NOT.
Where is the option: "Sticking to election promises when the circumstances have dramatically changed is the wrong thing to do"?
Given the huge immigration numbers, the runaway property market and disgusting lack of rules to protect renters, any tax reform is just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.
My situation too, $20 a week for me, whenever it comes, rent will get boosted way more than that and we go end up even further behind, happen 3 years running now.
27,000,000…20 years earlier than predicted.
Birth rates aren't that high amongst most demographics either, so …. you can imagine the drastic changes society is going to start to undergo.
The tax system is broken as it's weaponized by the incumbent party to gain advantage. It needs a reform that get rids of politicians out, either indexed by CPI or change to GST
To anyone who follows politics more closely, isn't it basically just the younger generation vs the old now? What I see (as a young person) is just a bunch of minor advantages the oldies gave themselves that stack up. I don't see how these tax cuts solve the fact that a lot of people my age have no intention of buying a home due to the time cost. You can shack up in nowheresville though, but you can't work from there because we have no HSR. I've got some land, I've got a caravan, no home though. A home in a decent area is 20 years of my life. I make 120k/yr after tax. I did the right moves, But I still have roommates because it's the absolute safest option. How can anyone lock in a mortgage with the world like this, just hoping for the best? I'm out of here in a few years. Why would I pay 1.5mil for a house here when I can find love, get married overseas (do you guys understand how stupid the divorce laws are here? I can't even get married here without being at the whim of my SO, literally if they decide one day to ruin me, take my future children away from me, whether or not I did anything wrong, they will have all their legal fees paid and no consequences if it turns out they were lying about everything.), set up over there for a fraction of the price? I'm not paying your negative gearing. The migrants coming here are doing what I'm doing except they're earning much less than me. The wages here are good, the asset inflation is ridiculous. I'm not paying your negative gearing.
You make valid points but just on the topic of young people being disincentivised to buy housing due to the total cost of ownership/mortgage duration; yes that's obviously a factor but you do realise you can sell homes with mortgages and transfer your home loan to a new property? The values of almost all homes these days will be higher than the outstanding mortgage balance, so it actually works in your favour the majority of the time if you do choose to sell a housing you're still paying off. The trickiest part of the process is having another home lined up before you've sold your existing property and having the seller accept a contingent offer pending sale of your current home.
Is just a bunch of minor advantages the oldies gave themselves that stack up.
First home bonuses worth 20% of the total house price
Free university
Golden state super scheme that pays you a % of your final wage for the rest of your life (could effectively retire at 55) - something the younger generation will never be able to do.
Barred international buyers from the market up until the late 90's when it became open slather.
Introduced private healthcare lifetime loading to subsidise the cost to the older generation for ongoing care.
Pension fixed to CPI (whilst everything else goes backwards) - not that the younger generation will be eligible.
Effectively you could have a huge savings buffer, dump it all into a million dollar property and live off the pension for the rest of your life if you're frugal (fully funded by the younger generation taxpayer).Sorry for the rant.
If you cannot spell Labor then your opinion is automatically irrelevant.
Laybouuuur
What a let down. Changing this is not helping inflation. Scam job well done.
Yep. The politics of envy, ignorance and division at work again. Socialists like Albanese and Chalmers give their first loyalty to their union masters. Always.
Do you write down what you hear on Sky News or does it just keep ringing in your head?
Can't get Sky News
I get most of my news from Fox, Breitbart and 4chan
What would you suggest that would bring down inflation and not increase the burden on those who can't afford it?
Thanks albo for the extra money , going straight into the pokies
Imagine still thinking that the fake left-right paradigm, two-party preferred system will actually change anything for the better in 2024…
This is why Australia will never fix sh*t.
People actually think their votes make a difference and that a two party system is still intrinsically good because two whole parties is one more than a single-party dictatorship, so… thank God we have real choices in this country. I mean it's like Coles and Woolsworths; they're unbelievably different.
the balance of power in the senate is the only democratic thing I've seen in Australia in 20 years, I mean look at the way the votes are counted and the preference system for a start…It's a long way down for the country that sells rocks for a living and imports people whilst perpetually patting itself on the back with diving real wages and 1% GDP growth
With single member divisions elected by majority it takes a while for a threshold to be reached, but once it does, only a few percentage points can mean a landslide. If trends continue the combined Labor and Coalition could drop below 60% or even 50% in the next two decades. We'd see a lot of people outside the two parties in parliament then, even in the house.
You are spot on this is just more carrots to distract the sheep from the real causes of high cost of living, corporatism and mass immigration (both of which go hand in hand and both parties are happy to placate at the expense of citizens).
personally think they should reduce that tax bracket even further, to $150K.
Most of low wage earners are only really max out at like $50-80K a year, if you earn more than that you are already very rich IMO,
Labour should instead be looking to increase 100% tax-free bracket to like $20-25K tho, and IDK may be keep the $180K bracket to that place.
Dont think rich people making >$180K need much more government support than low earners. Low earners are facing the hardest challenges (<$40K a year)
also those complaining about this bill change, are you really being in $180K+ bracket ?? common be honest
I think 'very rich' isn't the correct term here… Do you consider anyone who doesn't 'live paycheck to paycheck' rich?
Everyone is doing it tough at the moment and eveyones circumstances are different but just cause someone makes 180k does not make them very rich. Id say they are just on the upper end of the middle class.
Person A can be on 180k, single, at home living with their parents still.
Person B is on 180k, 2 kids in daycare and paying a mortgage that has gone up 1-2k per month over the last year in interest rate rises.
Same income but one would appear a lot wealthier than the other.
Don't go to costco if you think everyone's doing it tough at the moment. Went for the first time in my 30s and was filled with disgust from the carpark through to my departure… Just the sheer excess so many people live in.
Haha this made me laugh. I frequent Aldi but havent quite made it to Costco yet.
Ozbargain has always had a hard on for ALP and Greens
better than nothing, however you can never please everyone.
Wont be voting Labor anymore. They only got in because they committed to Stage 3. This was the one topic that lost Shorten the election and gave Morrison the win that never should have been.
They only got in because they committed to Stage 3.
that was the sole reason that you believe they won the last election?
LNP was also committed to the same 'stage 3' tax changes (and likely also would have tweaked such changes), so would that be the defining reason?
The US is in a mess because of Reagan-Nomics that started in the 80's. The answer is never tax cuts and trickle down wealth which is a furphy. Stage 3 should never have been approved and I am happy that its being tweaked.