The Pink Ceiling: Workplaces Rigged against Early and Mid-Career Men

Lrandomvis on 21/09/2023 - 21:00
Last edited 22/09/2023 - 16:46

This is partially to inform but also vent at how rigged modern workplaces are against young men. In my (33M) final year working in the university system I realised how far we have tipped the scales towards favouring women. Part of the reason I quit was I came across information regarding promotion statistics for lecturer, senior lecturer and associate professors in my faculty of science and engineering— men had a 30% chance of promotion within a given cycle while women had 100%. That's right. 100%.

In the past, the figure hovered over 50% for both men and women. This bias (along with other reasons) resulted in a mini exodus in the faculty of early to mid-career male academics into industry. But after speaking with young guys in industry working for larger companies (we are looking at those ASX 200 companies with strong emphasis on ESG points), these discriminatory policies are almost universally adopted to get women into future leadership positions at the expense of men. I don't blame the women for taking advantage of such a rigged system, how could you? But, this young male demoralization will lead to some severe societal consequences.

Honestly, if the game is so rigged, why play it? I don't see these practices disappearing or even lessening in the near future so I'm working for a small company now. But, I aim on founding my own sole-tradership to avoid this whole gender political circus.

So, if your son is entering the workforce in the next 10 years what would you tell them?

Play the game and claim female status?
Recommend they just put up with the discriminatory practices?
Work for smaller companies?

===== Edit ====
Let's clarify a few things because it appears that a trend of name calling and preconceived notions have set root. Typical OzBargain groupthink. I'll clarify the main topics here:

You are making excuses about your own ability, you are terrible at your job.

You can believe I'm incompetent if you want, I won't lose sleep over this.

Look at the official statistics

I've seen the internal statistics at my university. Yes what I'm presenting anecdotal, but that hard ceiling that all young men would encounter at that institution exists whether you shove a booklet in my face or not.

You are an Incel, you are whining like a woman, you are not a man, you are a misogynist, you're an Andrew Tate fan, you are a "gardener" (do you think gardeners are stupid?), you are a liar etc…

Given the reaction here, most people either don't care that I uncovered obvious institutional discrimination or have resorted to name calling. Even if I were an incel or a misogynist or god forbid, an Andrew Tate fan, that is irrelevant. I'm looking out for young guys who have are now on the end of a long line of affirmative actions. Looking out for my son— your sons… It's this societal response which is why so many young men out there are just giving up. Going NEET, going 'incel', going MGTOW, MRA whatever the latest trend is— these movements are destroying men here in this country.

You hate women.

I don't know how this became a preconceived notion— to stand up for young men, instantly means you hate women. Sure.

You don't know how statistics work, was there only one woman.

I should have been clearer. There was a sample size of around 40 women and about 60 men.

Education & Work

Comments

    • idonotknowwhy on 26/09/2023 - 11:12
      +2

      She could be the most retarted recruit to ever enter the academy

      tbh, she's probably be a perfect fit then

      • Protractor on 26/09/2023 - 12:05

        True. Is intellect is a prerequisite for such roles?. You just need to do what the union tells you, and aim straight (ish).
        "Out the way old lady, I have a fully functioning LASER"

        "Hey,sarge can I go on the Big Day Out strip search run today?"

  • JafferMoney on 26/09/2023 - 08:52
    +5

    I think you got no idea son…the VAST majority of leadership roles are filled by white men.

    • dmac on 26/09/2023 - 21:04

      How long have those people been in leadership? About 20 years ago I remember most women were part time carers and part time working. Women's priorities have shifted from the family to the workplace over time. Therefore it will take time for this generation of women to reach leadership roles. I've been seeing lots of young female CEOs (younger than most male CEOs) in the media, so it's already happening.

  • ralpal on 26/09/2023 - 13:36
    +1

    Fix discrimination with more discrimination, but of a different kind. :shakeshead:

  • Bargain Slut on 26/09/2023 - 14:35

    I mean, statistically it has to happen. If you're trying to accelerate the curve to parity in leadership roles etc. within any organisation, then there's a fair chance that the existing hierarchy is overpopulated by men relative to the gender distribution across the corresponding workforce and/or population.

    If 10/10 leadership roles are men, and you're committed to introducing gender parity, it would mean that the next 5 leaders you hire should theoretically be female.

    This being said I am yet to see any real world example where someone has been hired or promoted to a role of significance 'just because' they are female or (insert under represented demographic here) at a certain point you've still got to be legitimately good at your job or legitimately good at networking and keeping the right people happy. It will happen from time to time, however, I'd argue that the majority of workplace situations still lean towards being advantaged towards men.

    As a moderately succesful middle aged white male I am yet to see any downsides from the push for diversity in my own career.

    • nned2say on 09/10/2023 - 22:45

      I don't want to comment on OP's thoughts because some females are still at a disadvantage. But it is hypocritical to say you don't see any downsides. You guys are the beneficiaries of male privileges but now young males may be at a disadvantage when they compete for the same job with females because of the push for diversity. How about the guys who benefit from male privileges quit and let females filling in their positions? As such, young males can compete equally with females. If you want to push for diversity, I am an ethnic, sexual and religious minority, why not hire me because of the diversity?

      I have been applying for jobs in IT and it is very interesting to see that for all the interviews I have done, less than 25% of the managers are males. They include multinational companies, small start-up companies, and governments.

      • Bargain Slut on 10/10/2023 - 09:40

        I quite clearly say that I havent seen any downsides in my own personal career.

        Could there be? Yes. A better yard stick would theoretically be to track your hiring and promotions from a point in time to ensure gender equity in future choices, however, that wont help your reporting metrics on gender equality at an organisational level.

        When you say 'you guys' I'm less than ten years PQE - I'd say I will be impacted by this. Ten years ago I would have definitely been promoted with less effort, I dont see me having to put in more effort to actually prove myself as a bad outcome.

        • nned2say on 10/10/2023 - 15:39

          You don't get my point. Currently it is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Say, there are 20 apples on the table and some males take 15 apples(they benefit from the male privileges). Now these males who have taken apples hope the metrics look better and ask the females to take the rest of the apples.
          This example may be extreme but my point is it is unfair for some young males who don't or don't have the chance to take the apples.

          • Bargain Slut on 10/10/2023 - 17:12

            @nned2say: Bruh, not sure how good your reading and comprehension is? I'm increasingly convinced that any career advancement issues you run into aren't going to be because of gender quotas.

            • nned2say on 10/10/2023 - 17:54

              @Bargain Slut: I am convinced you got a job because of the male privileges in the past.

              • Bargain Slut on 11/10/2023 - 10:35

                @nned2say: Yep, them male provileges have really eroded so severely in the last 5 years that I would longer be employable… if you're going to attempt some kind of comeback, some level of originality would be appreciated. I'm guessing you struggle with non standardised interview questions and that's a key part of what's holding you back (other than your personality obvs).

  • Thenarrator on 26/09/2023 - 16:15
    +4

    What some organisations have attempted to do is to adopt equality of outcome by filling in female quotas. This is undesirable. Organisations should adopt equality of opportunity which may or may not result in 50/50 men women in workplace. People cant wrap their head around this

  • RevolverUpstairs on 26/09/2023 - 16:29
    +7

    People in this thread accusing this man of being wrong have clearly never worked in big corporations before. I've witnessed sexism first hand against men with senior managers saying two identical candidates on her table one male one female, she would always pick the female. It exists unfortunately and it will be tough for the new generation of men coming through to get ahead, even without any wrongdoing by themselves.

    • Ughhh on 26/09/2023 - 20:01

      saying two identical candidates on her table one male one female, she would always pick the female

      And if the senior manager was a male?
      I could say the same thing about males favouring males, something that has been going on for decades.

      • RevolverUpstairs on 26/09/2023 - 21:00
        +5

        I completely agree that it's wrong. However this "anti-male" position is now endorsed whereby managers can say that publicly.
        If I said I would always hire a male over a female I'd be chastised. I feel sorry for younger generations of men who are now starting their careers where it's okay to bash men publicly.

        • Ughhh on 27/09/2023 - 19:57
          -1

          I disagree that it's "anti male", but given you've described it that way, demonstrates your bias view.

          There's bad managers from both sexes, some will always favour the same sex, or family/friend. But to paint everything with the same brush….

          • RevolverUpstairs on 27/09/2023 - 20:08

            @Ughhh: Genuinely how else would you descirbe it then?
            I'm witnessing a senior female manager spout sexism and have support by her peers for doing so without repurcussion.

            • Ughhh on 27/09/2023 - 20:42
              -1

              @RevolverUpstairs: So you're basing your opinion on diversity on one incident/bad manager?

              I've witness guys saying shit about women not being able to do stuff (including non physical labour work). Should I hate all men because of that?

              • RevolverUpstairs on 27/09/2023 - 20:44

                @Ughhh: No, I'm just using that as the best anecdotal example I have to explain the situations I've faced. I've never once said I hate all women… just that this type of behaviour is now becoming more accepted in the workplace.

                The way you're twisting my words to fit some pre-concieved notion that I'm behaving in a sexist way is concerning.

    • freefall101 on 27/09/2023 - 16:26
      +1

      Big corporations aim at hiring for the corporation and not just the role. We're all cogs in the machine, but study after study shows improving diversity at the top level brings more ideas and makes the company more appealing to people at the lower levels from a more diverse group, so your options for hiring get better.

      The problem is that hiring is rampant with biases from every angle. People subconsciously hire men (both men and women do this), some people see age as experience, some see age as stuck in the past. Some try to hire clones of themselves or what the corporation already has - which is usually also males in senior positions. The whole career progression to get to a senior point is often tilted towards men.

      It'd be nice if there was none, but if you've got the choice between someone who's fought against a lot of biases and one who hasn't, the first choice is probably a sensible one.

      It used to be near impossible for a woman to get ahead, thus why most senior roles were pack with men to begin with. It's hard to argue it's tough to get ahead when men will continue to hold most of those roles for quite a while to come too.

  • Klogg86 on 26/09/2023 - 17:27

    Easy one. You might be right, you might not be. Doesn't matter.
    Do what's in your power to win. Don't like the game? Change games.

    Even if you really are a victim, don't play the victim card. It does you no good.

    • infinite on 26/09/2023 - 23:15
      -1

      Unfortunately people self-victimizing themselves and then playing the victim card like it's a profession, is actually a profession for many individuals now.

      It's best to just ignore those people and continue on with life as normal. Nothing triggers professional victims harder than seeing someone else just happily living their life.

  • massafiri on 27/09/2023 - 01:20
    +4

    I'm a male and work in IT.
    I've seen this discrimination first hand, but I've also seen the "boys club" that enable high-paying roles to be passed on to friends and buddies.

    Just like most things in life, it's who you know, not what you know.
    Stop being a baby and improve your social skills.

    • randomvis on 30/09/2023 - 13:07
      +1

      On a personal level I am doing fine, was even in academia. But doesn't stop me for advocating for those guys getting the rug pulled from under them. Heck, even on an individual level, you can help each guy get a promotion, but that doesn't change what is happening overall.

      How will companies react when the success of a tender is reliant upon gender diversity? Especially in male dominated professions like engineering and science. I've seen multiple applications with a lengthy ESG diversity section. How many promotion/hiring forms have 'special considerations' on them? This is not just some niche issue.

      Telling the average guy they didn't get the promotion because they needed to fill a quota is demoralizing; on a societal scale this attitude will make young guys give up. We can already see the effect of two decades of telling men they are bad for just being men, their drive is being systematically being extinguished. Resulting in this growing hikikomori/incel generation.

      Telling them to "stop being a baby and improve your social skills" after being cheated is as helpful as saying "do better than you are currently doing."

  • ddilrat on 27/09/2023 - 04:51
    +5

    In my experience it is very rare for a man and woman applying for the same position to have equal qualifications and experience. 90% of the time the better applicant gets the job.

    I've hired plenty of people and it's not always about the individual but what will fit in with the team and other perspectives that the team needs. For example I've purposely hired less experienced people for a job because the team needs fresh ideas and not to be subconsciously bias towards their previous ideas or experience. Sometimes bringing a woman into an all male team is exactly what the team needs to perform better as a unit.

    IMO the people who complain about the current situation are the battlers who are not getting promoted because of their own abilities and work ethic.

  • capslock janitor on 28/09/2023 - 21:28

    I remember better days

    • [Deactivated] on 28/09/2023 - 21:40

      How good were the 1950s for men?

      • capslock janitor on 28/09/2023 - 21:40

        is it so hard to believe

        • [Deactivated] on 28/09/2023 - 21:43

          I only have 'Mad Men' as a reference point

  • jay9 on 21/01/2024 - 07:48

    Statistics can be read and interpreted in different ways.

    Maybe it was previous years data.

    Say the faculty had 1 woman and 5 men.

    The 1 woman and 3 men all apply for promotion

    1 woman and 1 man get the promotion.

    That would spit out a result of 100% promotion rate for women and 33% promotion rate for men.

    Even though women were by default underrepresented by total employee % at that level.

  • Gimmebrainzzz on 23/01/2024 - 23:58

    Given the generations of female oppression, I think we’ve earned the right for some preferential treatment.

    • randomvis on 24/01/2024 - 21:10

      Intergeneration sins makes as much sense as intergenerational debt.

      The end result of this "equalising" will be a world where old men handing the keys of crumbling kingdoms over to the young women— all that will be left will be empty buildings and bitterness.

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