Europe Travel Best Options - Short Visit Vs Work Permit/Study

Lfocus123 on 29/08/2023 - 14:56
Last edited 12/09/2023 - 12:31

Hi All,

We are a family with two kids (boy 7, girl 5).
We have been living in Australia for the past 15 years, now all are Aussie citizens and our house mortgage is nearly settled ( have an offset account balance nearly equal to the mortgage thanks to wife's saving skills )

Me and partner both work in IT and we had dreams of traveling Europe for quite some time.

Given the density of places/countries in Europe, we are thinking about our options for travel.

. Is it better to leave our current jobs here and go to Europe on a Work visa or enroll in a cheap European master's program if a work permit visa is unsuccessful?

This will allow us to explore Europe in detail (East, South, Western, Central, and north Europe. maybe one area per quarter or so). This option gives us the potential to earn money on weekdays and go sightseeing on weekends.
However, there is a risk of us not finding jobs or finding jobs that pay less than our current salary, plus finding work once we get back to Australia in 2-3 years' time.
on the flip side, we may find good jobs there and may actually settle there if Europe is as fascinating as they say :D. If we look 12-15 years into the future, university education is free for EU residents whereas, in Australia, the uni students are burdened with high HECS debts, and HECS debt is set to rise more in coming years.

Or

. Should we just take about 2 months of leave (My wife already has banked up about 10 weeks long service leaves that can be taken in small blocks and I have about 4 weeks' annual leave balance) and spend money from our savings and get the Europe box ticked (at least parts of it)? If you travel to Europe for 50 days with young kids, how much should you expect to spend? What are the not to miss things?

Or

. Forget about Europe at this stage given the conditions around Ukraine and wait a few more years until Putin or Zolankey dies (it will bring the war to an end). focus on a USA/Canada tour (which is our next dream destination).

This is to be implemented towards the mid or end of 2024 or early 2025 (add +1 year to kids' ages)

I've been a quiet observer of OzB for the past 12-13 years.
Appreciate your ideas.

Update 12/09/2023
Thank you all for all the comments and different opinions. We probably will take the 1-2 month holiday option to start with and then see other options.

Poll Options

  • 5
    Leave here for a few years and enjoy Europe in full.
  • 19
    Take the shortcut 2 months option and get the thing done and come back to reality in Australia
  • 2
    Leave Europe aside for the moment and focus on North America (USA/CANADA)
Travel

Comments

  • GG57 on 29/08/2023 - 14:59
    +1

    Are you eligible for a work visa in Europe (i.e. EU and/or specific countries in Europe)?

  • GG57 on 29/08/2023 - 15:02

    …If we look 12-15 years into the future, university education is free for EU residents …

    Is that for residents or citizens?
    How do you know that will be the case in 12-15 years time?
    How do you know that Australian education costs will not change in that timeframe?

    • focus123 on 29/08/2023 - 15:38

      Most of Europe already provide fee free bachelor and master's degree for EU residents
      https://www.study.eu/article/study-in-europe-for-free-or-low….

      From what I saw in the past 15 years, nothing has come down in price except the electronic items. The services cost in Australia is going up every year.
      Currently, the university fees for local students are controlled by government regulation.

      There was a push by Tony Abbot's government to de-regulate the fees and allow universities to set the price tag for their courses. Luckily it was voted down in the senate.
      https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/abbott-governments-u…

      Universities are commercial entities in Australia, they would happily jack up the prices if they were allowed to and sell the vacant seats to wealthy international students who are willing to grab a place in Australian universities.

      Australia has a serious underinvestment issue in all levels of education (at pre-school, primary, secondary and tertiary levels). Of course the system here is better than where we originally come from, but the feedback that we get from friends who live in Scandinavian countries gives us the perception that they have a better student-focused education system and social welfare system there.

      • GG57 on 29/08/2023 - 15:42
        +1

        So potentially free in two countries, currently.
        Anything could happen in the 12-15 year timeframe to which you refer, both in Australia and in Europe, which could impact on where would have the least expensive education.

      • jv on 30/08/2023 - 12:44

        Scandinavian countries gives us the perception that they have a better student-focused education

        How do their universities rank globally compared to ours?

  • Benoffie on 29/08/2023 - 15:29
    +2

    With kids that age, I'd be travelling in Asia. Europe is a long haul and whether theyll get any tangible benefit out of the experience, especially in 2 months, is debatable.

  • Gdsamp on 29/08/2023 - 15:29

    Me and partner both work in IT and we had dreams of traveling Europe for quite some time.
    We are a family with two kids (boy 7, girl 5).

    Personally I think it is pretty selfish to uproot your kids' lives here to live else where for a couple of years, and then re-uproot at the end of that to come back to Aus, because you and your partner want to. Especially to travel for 2-3 years at a fairly critical time for their schooling. And moving about every quarter, probably to different places not speaking English. It may be very hard for them to make friends, and then come back to Aus and have to do it all again

    I also think they're not quite of the age to really appreciate that kind of travelling - to be able gain an appreciation for other cultures and societies etc. Not to say that the alternative of annual holidays of a few weeks in different parts europe would be unappreciated (e.g. Disney) at that age, just that it seems less intrusive

    • mskeggs on 29/08/2023 - 15:39
      +2

      Strong disagree. Kids are very adaptable and will learn plenty from global exposure to other cultures.
      Much bigger risk from bringing up kids with no experience of the world beyond theme parks And with no adaptability because their parents worried they couldn’t cope.

      • Benoffie on 29/08/2023 - 16:14
        +3

        Theres a difference between travel through short holidays and what is being suggested which is akin to becoming Army Brats. And whilst the defence forces worldwide provide a network of support for those kids, they still suffer from a heightened inability to form stable connections and tend towards abandonment trauma.

        While parents may think its all educational and such, the children have to enter a foreign schooling system (either local or international). They cant speak the language, they have no friends. And in 3/6/12 months, it happens again.

        It erodes the self worth and places a hyperfocus on the family unit when children are meant to grow outward as they age. It is an unhealthy way to raise children, imho. They end up struggling as adults to ground themselves.

        Source - defence family and now teach international students.

        • mskeggs on 29/08/2023 - 20:14
          +1

          Oh right, yeah, I agree an interrupted moving lifestyle is undesirable (though I also think about families in a caravan or yacht who seem to make it work for a year or two). I read it as choosing a home country and vacationing from there, staying in one place to live so they meet residency requirements possibly in future years.

          • Benoffie on 29/08/2023 - 21:45
            +1

            @mskeggs: That would be preferable, basing in say Germany and then using holidays to branch out. Have family who have done that quite successfully.

    • focus123 on 29/08/2023 - 15:46
      +2

      thanks for the input. from what I noticed, the people who have travelled/explored outside the boundary early will do well when they grow up.

    • focus123 on 29/08/2023 - 16:30
      +1

      I did not mean to say that we would switch places every quarter. once we establish a base country in Europe, it is easy to have short holidays to different places.
      For example London to Paris train ticket is nearly the same as the Adelaide to Melbourne flight. Or we can even drive (we are quite used to long-distance drives such as Adelaide to Brisbane return, Adelaide to Sydney return ). and there are plenty of budget airline options for farther destinations

  • mskeggs on 29/08/2023 - 15:46
    +2

    Primary age kids are the bet candidates for international adventure, IMO.
    While they might not appreciate a Bach concerto in Brandenburg, they will learn how different cultures approach life, and develop adaptability and cross cultural skills that will be a life long asset plus the memories suitable for that age - building a snowman at Xmas time, visiting places they encounter in story books or movies etc.
    I would not hesitate in your circumstance.

    That said, why not plan a month long vacation in places that interest you. Go to a couple of job interviews for roles that are interesting while you are there to see whether the hassles of work permits etc. will be a huge barrier or not. Meet with some local recruitment people there.
    After a month you will have many of your questions answered.

  • try2bhelpful on 29/08/2023 - 18:58
    +4

    Must resist being the grammar police.

    If you are thinking about moving to Europe I would go for a visit first. You might find you don’t like the experience. Living and working in Europe would be amazing but how do you intend to overcome the language barrier? What languages are you fluent in? As an offside, have you thought about staying in Ireland. It is still part of the EU. They speak English (of a sort). They are a long way from the Ukraine. It would be a relatively short hop to holiday in Europe from there.

    • mskeggs on 29/08/2023 - 20:16
      +1

      Home of the Ryanair 9€ flights to airports an hour ride from destinations across the continent! Unbeatable value for Aussies used to a 9 hour flight to anywhere.

      • Benno007 on 01/09/2023 - 04:58

        Without checkin, checked bags. carry on, toilet access or snack 😂, but with hours at the airport still…!

    • Benoffie on 29/08/2023 - 21:49

      Ireland's got it's own set of issues and residency > citizenship is not as easy as it's made out. We are currently 3 years in attempting to get family home and it's been nothing short of a nightmare.

      • try2bhelpful on 30/08/2023 - 09:32

        Best of luck with sorting your issues out. Nit sure OP is looking at citizenship, more work visas.

    • focus123 on 30/08/2023 - 10:11

      Thank you for the suggestion about visiting first and then deciding on a long-term move.

      Based on the videos I've watched on YouTube, it seems that most Europeans speak their own version of English.
      Having worked with people from many different backgrounds, I think we can understand most versions of English (including Scottish and Welsh )

      Since we work in IT, we use a common set of communication standards (UML , flow charts, diagrams, programming languages) it will not be difficult in the workplace either.

      • try2bhelpful on 30/08/2023 - 10:32
        +2

        Before you start a job I would find out if English is considered a common language in the workplace. It could be a bit like coming to Australia and just assuming everyone will speak French because many Australians study it at school. If you do find a job over there I would, at least, do an intensive language course before you leave to get familiar with how their language works.

        As a tourist there are a lot of people who will speak English to you because they want your money. Maybe not so much in the workforce.

        • Benoffie on 30/08/2023 - 11:08
          +1

          Second that. The expectation in Germany and France will be you speak those languages. Had a cousin move to Germany for banking and he had to take intensives in both as it was made clear no concessions would be made for him.

          In Italy, most don't learn English at all. It's not seen as important.

  • Sinnerator on 30/08/2023 - 08:31

    DO IT !
    Travel Europe > living in australia

    • jv on 30/08/2023 - 12:46

      🤣

  • sumyungguy on 30/08/2023 - 09:53
    +1

    Europe is full of stuff that's fascinating to adults but boring and not memorable to kids. In the USA you'll enjoy seeing the world through the eyes of your kids way more.
    Last three trips with my family of four, daily expenses, Europe & USA (excluding airfares & shopping): 2011/2015/2018 $650/$770/$835

    • focus123 on 30/08/2023 - 09:59

      Thanks for the input on daily expenses. For the USA/Europe did you rent a vehicle or use a taxi or Uber-like service for local transport?

      • sumyungguy on 30/08/2023 - 13:46
        +1

        We very rarely use taxi or rideshare, generally public transit. We always rent a car in the US but avoid days when we're staying in the cities where overnight parking plus valet tip is insane. In Europe there's nowhere to park so no rental cars there (except when Aurora hunting in the 'burbs of Tromso).

        • try2bhelpful on 30/08/2023 - 13:55
          +1

          Europe is OK to rent a car but not in the bigger cities. When we did Loire Valley and Tuscany it was easier for us to drive. With the smaller ones you park outside the villages and walk in. The US is similar. The bigger cities you are better off on public transport but if you want to go outside the immediate town centres you need a car. In LA you just need a car. The is a leasing scheme you can do in Europe where if you need a car for more than 21 days you are better off leasing and then returning it at the end.

    • try2bhelpful on 30/08/2023 - 11:50
      +1

      I would think the duck and cover drills for dealing with gunman on campus would add some excitement to the school day.

  • Benno007 on 01/09/2023 - 04:47
    +2

    Damn, I had a huge post and it got wiped 😩

    My partner and I are doing the two month europe now. We were thinking 6 months working remote but it would have been hell I think. Im taking 5 weeks unpaid and my partner is taking 3 weeks unpaid but going back to jobs we enjoy. We were looking into digital nomad visas but it all seemed very difficult… plus you’d have to consider tax, in many places you might be a tax resident over 180 days IIRC?

    We are moving every 3-4 days (some 1-2 night stopovers). It’s a lot, we picked 18 different cities all over from UK to greece, Portugal, Switzerland, France, Netherlands, Germany, Austria etc… so lots of flights and trains and ferries. For kids, youd definitely want to stick to places where you aren’t moving but can go to a different place frequently - Interlaken would be a great location if you like mountain and lake activities. We stayed in wengen though.

    Check in to hotels is 3pm mostly. We’ve only been let in early a couple of times. Parking has been 20-30 euro a night when we had the car. If you go way out of town, you might get a place that has free parking, or if you get an Airbnb with parking you’ll be set.

    We’ve seen a lot of kids holidaying so far in Rome, Wengen/Lauterbrunnen/Interlaken, Innsbruck, Amsterdam, London. Not so much in Greece or Germany.

    My dad brought me to a lot of these places when I was 3-4 years old. I’ve got childhood movies of me in places that look exactly the same 30 years later. If your kids grow up with a sense of nostalgia, they might appreciate that like me haha.

    Car hire can be a pain if you plan to go between countries. London, Amsterdam, Germany, Austria and Switzerland at least all have ultra low emission zones, and different ways of charging tolls. Either via a prepaid ‘vignette (sticker)’ (Austria 9 euro/Switzerland 42 euro) or nothing at all (germany). Some have ULEZ stickers(germany, 6 euros), others don’t (Austria/Switzerland).

    I met a family who was driving 3 months through Europe in an old car and they said a lot of salami and bread is what they were eating.

    Example:
    2 large McDonald’s meals in zermatt - $62 AUD ($41 in Innsbruck)
    A single coke at almost any European restaurant - $8.30 AUD
    A coffee (that tastes like shit almost anywhere in Europe except Rome so far) - $9.20 AUD (it’s just from a machine!)
    A pizza at a restaurant - about $35 AUD (plus service charge of 10-20% depending on country) + discretionary tip + sometimes a cover charge or what I call the ‘bread charge’.

    The service in Europe has largely shit at restaurants. only go to places with top rated reviews (search reviews by ‘newest’ in google too).

    Any place that has people eagerly ushering you in - LEAVE. Only come back once you’ve verified their rating…

    For airlines, try to travel with carry on for your kids. Checked luggage over 10kg basically doubles the cost of the flight.

    Costing wise we’ve spent $405/night on average so far (form $267 in Innsbruck to $670 in santorini… soon to be $800 in Paris)

    We are averaging $120/day between us on food, usually eating at a restaurant for dinner and a cheaper place for lunch or vice Versa and supermarket or cafe breakfast like a coffee and pastry and banana. When we were having supermarket breakfast and lunch, and just going out for dinner it was about $70/day

    If you go to Disney Paris easiest access seems to be via CDG airport, then there are hotels nearby that were quite cheap like $250/night. We are going there for 2 nights then Paris for 3 at the end of our trip(1 day 2 parks though)

    SIM card wise we both got Holafly. I think it cost about 90 euro for 2 months for an eSim with unlimited data and calls (only within Europe though) so we can still receive SMS on our Australian numbers for banks and stuff.

    • focus123 on 03/09/2023 - 03:25

      Thank you for the detailed response mate. Highly appreciate it.

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