Seeking Advice on Next Car Purchase - EV/PHEV or Petrol?

CochazoTuc on 21/07/2023 - 22:38
Last edited 22/07/2023 - 01:10

Hello everyone,

I'm on the hunt for my next car and could use some advice. My current vehicle is showing signs of aging (it's 11 years old) and the mechanic suggested that it's time for a replacement.

My employer offers novated leases and there's an appealing price for EV and/or PHEV cars, thanks to their exemption from FBT. I've narrowed down my options to a few choices within my budget (~200 PW), including EVs, PHEVs, and a traditional petrol car. Here they are:

  1. EV - BYD ATTO-3 Extended Range (53K) ~180PW
  2. PHEV - Ford Escape ST-Live PHEV (59K) ~200-210PW
  3. PHEV - Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV 5 seats (61K) ~ 200-210PW
  4. Petrol - Toyota RAV 4 (~44K) ~ 230 PW
  5. EV - Tesla Model Y (69K) ~ 230-240PW

My goal is to find a cost-effective, economical, and durable car that will ideally last for the next 10 years. I'm drawn towards a Toyota RAV4 EV, but unfortunately, it doesn't exist yet.

It's worth noting that I'm planning to buy the car at the end of the lease, which will be 3 years at the residual value (46.88% of the original price).

Each option has its own set of concerns, and I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons. Here are some of the key points I'm considering:

EV Concerns:

  • BYD: While it's reasonably priced, it is a Chinese brand, and there's a stigma associated with the durability of Chinese-made cars. I'm worried it might not last 10 years, and if I decide to sell after 3 years (post lease), it might not recover the residual value (46.88%).
  • BYD: The car has a smaller trunk than I'd prefer, and the warranty is fragmented, with different components covered for varying lengths of time. Additionally, BYD's local network of service/support is just starting.
  • Upcoming EVs: Numerous promising EV models are expected to hit the Australian market in the next 12 months.
  • EV Price: Prices have been trending downward, largely thanks to Elon Musk's influence, but this seems to have plateaued recently due to what appears to be an oligopoly in the market.
  • Technology Advancements: There's a high chance of a major battery breakthrough in the next few years, which could make current EV technology obsolete, much like older iPhone models once a new one is released.

PHEV Concerns:

  • Cost-Benefit: Is the additional cost of a PHEV worth it, especially when considering long-term durability and potential resale value?
  • Future Regulations: PHEVs might lose their "low-emission vehicle" status soon, and their FBT benefits could disappear.
  • Mitsubishi's Future: There's uncertainty about Mitsubishi's plans, as it has been pulling out of major markets like Europe, India, and China. It's unclear if they will maintain their quality as they seem to be targeting the economy segment.

Petrol Concerns:

  • Price Fluctuation: Will petrol prices continue their upward trend? It's hard to say.
  • FBT Benefits: Since petrol cars are not FBT exempt, I end up paying the same for a Toyota RAV 4 as for a base model Tesla Model Y, which changes the cost-benefit calculation.

So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on which option you would choose and why.

Poll Options

  • 3
    Any other option (provided it's within the 70K budget)
  • 16
    BYD ATTO-3 (EV)
  • 1
    Ford Escape (PHEV)
  • 6
    MG (EV)
  • 4
    Outlander (PHEV)
  • 42
    Tesla Model Y (EV)
  • 35
    Toyota (Petrol)
Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

  • Euphemistic on 21/07/2023 - 22:53
    +2

    What is your current vehicle usage? If you hardly ever travel long distance PHEV isn’t a great option. PHEV is only worth it if you can charge daily and travel less than the EV range normally but travel longer distances fairly regularly (monthly). Even payi mg extra for a long rangne option isn’t worth it unless you can’t charge at home or travel more than like 70% of the range monthly.

    An EV now won’t be obsoleted by newer tech. There will still be a market for them as used car buyer shift away from ICE because petrol is expensive and sparks are a lot cheaper

    Ultimately, if they don’t make an EV that suits you now, hold off for 1-2 years while the number of model variants increase so you can get something you want. Your cars value is unlikely to drop much more in the meantime and if it’s well maintained is unlikely to suddenly cost a fortune. Tell your mechanic you want it to last another 12-24months

    • CochazoTuc on 22/07/2023 - 01:03

      I agree that waiting at least a year would be the optimal choice, but it's difficult to delay when my current car consumes about $70-80 AUD worth of petrol per week (a 2011 Forester with a 2.5-liter engine and four gearboxes). We currently clock close to 18-20K km a year, with multiple short trips of 10-20 km per day. A PHEV might help reduce that consumption, and any new car would be more efficient than my Forester. However, an EV would be the ideal choice.

      Additionally, the novated lease options for EVs present a great deal, allowing me to use pre-tax income to pay for the car, which makes a substantial difference.

      • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 09:21
        +2

        but it's difficult to delay when my current car consumes about $70-80 AUD worth of petrol per week (a 2011 Forester with a 2.5-liter engine and four gearboxes)

        It’s likely the difference in fuel cost and depreciation between your current vehicle and any new EV will not be very different, it’s probably cheaper to keep the current vehicle.

  • Hairgainbunter on 21/07/2023 - 22:56
    +1

    If can afford get Model Y RWD. If can’t BYD ATTO.
    I switched from RAV 4 to Model Y RWD, best upgrade ever. Night and Day!
    Both have LFP batteries which are very durable and can charge regularly to 100%.

    • CochazoTuc on 22/07/2023 - 01:07
      +1

      It's good to hear that the Model Y is a worthwhile upgrade from the RAV4. Was your RAV4 a newer model?

      This makes the Model Y a bit more tempting. I'd love to have the Model Y, but it feels a bit too luxurious for my taste. I might start taking more care of the car than I would usually do. Also, there's a $10K AUD difference over the term of the lease (3 years) - which makes it 34% more expensive.

      • Hairgainbunter on 28/07/2023 - 14:01

        RAV4 was 2016 model, great car and good value compared to other ICE cars but it's a generation behind EV. IMHO have to go EV now, PHEV can be worst of both worlds.
        Have you calculated savings of EV over the course of loan or benefit of adding solar ? Usually a no brainer if you do….

    • kipps on 22/07/2023 - 05:28

      Pretty sure only SR+ is LFP. LR is NCM. I’d double check though.

      OP, test drive the Model Y and Atto.

      Personally I wouldn’t bother with PHEV for those low km trips. Avoid servicing that comes with petrol.

  • [Deactivated] on 21/07/2023 - 23:13
    -2

    So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on which option you would choose and why.

    мозъчна гимнастика

    [Deactivated] on 21/07/2023 - 23:13 (Collapsed - Offtopic. Show)
  • dcep on 21/07/2023 - 23:29
    +1

    MG ZS EV Long Range 73kWh/440kms - $53k (After $5k MG rebate) 7 years warranty

    $5,000 MG Rebate redeemed at purchase as a deduction from the advertised state-based DAP (Drive away price) across MY22 and MY23 MG ZS EV Long Range models. MG participating dealers only, while stocks last, offers valid for vehicles sold & delivered between 1/7/2023 & 31/7/2023. MG Australia reserves the right to modify or extend these offers.

    Novated lease w/ FBT works out better than the $6k QLD Gov. EV rebate?

    • CochazoTuc on 22/07/2023 - 01:23

      I need to examine this model more thoroughly. One concern for me was the boot volume, which is smaller compared to the Atto-3 and the Model Y.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 22/07/2023 - 11:00
        +3

        It's also a Chinese car

        You mention being concerned by byd being Chinese, well so is mg

        Ignore any heritage the brand has, that's irrelevant. They're rebranded Saics

        • [Deactivated] on 22/07/2023 - 20:29
          +2

          The teslas are Chinese too, so are polestars, but gullible people think they’re something special.

          • coffeeinmyveins on 22/07/2023 - 22:06
            +3

            @[Deactivated]: That's marketing

            People were buying Tesla's when they had 3cm panel gaps and missing brake pads because daddy Elon was cool

            Now excuse me while I can open my glovebox without going through three menus on a zero haptic feedback screen

            • [Deactivated] on 23/07/2023 - 12:45
              +1

              @coffeeinmyveins: That’s something I don’t understand with EVs, wanting to make everything that was manual now electric. Like really how hard is it to manually adjust your seat, open the glovebox or close a tailgate? Especially when the ‘fuel tank’ is depleted by doing so.

              • Mibo on 28/07/2023 - 16:13

                @[Deactivated]: Electric seats and mirrors with memory function is great if you have multiple drivers regularly driving the car

                • [Deactivated] on 28/07/2023 - 16:25

                  @Mibo: It also ads weight, complexity and cost to an already lardy arsed vehicle. For a vehicle that is already 1/3 heavier than the market segment, has limited range and extended refueling systems I'd have thought weight saving would be a must. But I guess it wouldn't feel 'premium' with manual seats and door handles.

      • seannami on 24/07/2023 - 14:52

        I have a ZSEV on a 5 year novated- the boot is a good size, especially if you at looking at things that need vertical space (its quite deep down, and goes back a decent way). Bigger than a hatch for sure. I've not had to load much in it yet- what kind of boot loads are you looking at (suitcases, Bunnings runs, shopping?)

        ZSEV is a really good car, little foibles here and there but those are more things you get used to being a different car rather than anything problematic (steering is adaptive, for example, turning lane keeping from 'emergency' to warning is also a good step one etc. I'm on a standard range and have had no problem doing the daily commute 4ish times (50-60kms if I go direct there and back) on a charge, battery have never been lower than 38%

        Have been in a few EVs now (Tesla most recently- nice car but some weirdness I'd want gone) and I'd choose an MG again personally (maybe a 4 instead of a ZS though)

        I'd actually suggest an MG4, but you seem to want an SUV form factor? Outlander Phevs are also pretty nice, but there's still petrol.

        Full disclosure I will advocate for EV whenever possible for not promoting fossil fuel reasons.

    • BluebirdV on 29/07/2023 - 17:21

      Isn't an MG a small car and hence a death trap with all the large utes and SUVs that make up the majority of cars on the road now? 10 years ago Australia's best selling car was a Toyota Corolla. Now I think it's a Hilux or a Ranger.

      • dcep on 29/07/2023 - 17:44

        Does it looks like a small car to you ?

        https://mgmotor.com.au/models/mg-zsev/

        • BluebirdV on 29/07/2023 - 17:46

          Mid-sized but a lot of the MGs I've seen are on the small side.

      • seannami on 30/07/2023 - 10:22

        It's a small SUV, MG4 is a biggish hatch from what I can tell. ZSEV is a similar body size to a largish hatch but with a height advantage- same length/width as recommended on hatch car covers, but the wrong shape (mispurchases were made).

        Haven't felt particularly intimidated by a big SUV in one. And all cars are death traps if you hit the wrong thing the wrong way.

  • Switchblade88 on 21/07/2023 - 23:34

    I've got the MG HS PHEV (which I wrote about here) and love it.

    I get both the benefits of an EV with the flexibility and range of a petrol SUV, both of which were much more important to me being rural than any other factors. If you are more urban then an EV is probably the slightly better option, but not always. Other factor is upfront cost - the MG PHEV is about $52k (which is about $6k higher than what I paid for it 2 years ago), so comparing against a $53k BYD is a bit different to the $70+k Teslas that were the only alternative in 2021.

    In terms of durability - the petrol engine side of the drivetrain is essentially slacking off, compared to any other ICE vehicle! I'm only doing 5000km with the engine running between services, so I'm sure the oil is still near-clean when it gets serviced. By the time my odometer get to 100,00km I will only have done half that compared to a RAV4's engine. And since the petrol engine is really only being used for my 300-400km highway trips, it's a constant load with less stop-starting so there is much less wear compared to say hard city driving with any other ICE engine.

    Dunno how the Ford PHEV compares, but the Mitzi had significantly less luxury features (TPMS, sunroof, powered tailgate, adaptive cruise etc) by comparison two years ago which was a significant nudge to the MG for me. Just something else to weigh up.

    • CochazoTuc on 22/07/2023 - 01:24

      I wasn't aware of this model. It has the perfect size, but unfortunately, it's not yet available as an EV.

  • Benoffie on 22/07/2023 - 00:12

    Keep away from PHEVs. See the myriad of current articles on those.

    Consider the new generation of EVs about to hit. Due Q4 23 Q1 24.

  • Mokr on 22/07/2023 - 00:17
    +4

    Get a used car say five years. And wait for evs to be cheaper

    Eleven years is very bad for a car to last

    • CochazoTuc on 22/07/2023 - 00:49

      I've thought about getting a used car, but prices are high right now. On the other hand, the novated lease for an EV like the ATTO-3 works out pretty well. I'd pay less weekly for 3 years and then buy the car for its residual value. This allows me to spread the cost over time.

      The ATTO-3 is priced at $53K - I can end up paying its full value (53K), but only in year 3. During the first three years, I would pay around $174 AUD per week (which totals to $28.8K AUD in three years), and then the residual value (~$26K). The calculated savings are significant, and they all result from paying less in taxes.

      Buying a used car means spending $20-30K upfront, money that could otherwise be earning interest.

      Lastly, fixing the issues with my current car costs more than the car is worth. That's why I'm leaning towards a new one."

      • Worf on 22/07/2023 - 07:55
        +1

        Could also lease a car with the option of handing back the keys in 3 years time if better cars/battery tech becomes available.

      • lunartemis on 01/08/2023 - 06:05

        You can do novated lease on a used car as well

        • seannami on 01/08/2023 - 10:40

          Though won't be FBT exempt

          • lunartemis on 01/08/2023 - 13:12

            @seannami: Are you sure about that because i just put it through an estimator and 2nd hand car is also exempt from FBT

            • seannami on 01/08/2023 - 14:32

              @lunartemis: seems a little wobbly-

              "The practical effect of this requirement is that the electric car must be used for the first time on or after 1 July 2022 – even if it is held before this date.

              An electric car is 'held' when it is:

              owned (includes cars acquired under hire-purchase arrangements)
              leased (or let on hire), or
              otherwise made available by another entity.
              An electric car is considered 'used' when it is used or available for use by any entity or person."

              You might be right as long as it's a post-July 2022 used car? Though the example they give doesn't outrigt state whether the exemption applies to the second owner (and whether its available more than once per vehicle):

              "John ordered an electric car on 1 February 2022. The car was not subject to LCT. The car was delivered on 15 June 2022, at which time legal ownership passed to John.

              John first makes the car available for the private use of his employees on 5 July 2022.

              On 1 September 2023, John sells the electric car to XYZ Co. The new owner makes the car available for the private use of its employees from 1 September 2023.

              The electric car was:

              first held on 15 June 2022 – when John started owning it
              first used on 5 July 2022.
              The first time the electric car was both held and used was after 1 July 2022. Therefore, any car fringe benefits are exempt from FBT."

              I posted that because I said the same thing as you in a previous post and was corrected :p

              Also example John let the car sit there for a month, which I can't imagine the tax office believing…

  • LVlahov on 22/07/2023 - 01:16

    Get the Model Y, you are getting $25k more car, for the same weekly cost (as the RAV4). The incentives are set up to make the Model Y the more attractive choice. Wouldn't touch a Chinese (branded) EV with a 10ft bargepole. People won't want them when you go to trade or sell at the end of your ownership period.

  • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 01:27
    -4

    Don't buy a Chinese made car.

    It strengthens the ability of China to threaten other nations, either militarily or politically.

    Purchase a car made, if not from one of our acknowledged allies, at least from ones that are less aggressive.

    • payless69 on 22/07/2023 - 06:59
      +2

      All Teslas sold here come out of China so do the majority of components of our daily consumer spending. Buy a Bimmer, Frau Klatten in Munich pays Chinese slave labour to build something ugly!

  • AustriaBargain on 22/07/2023 - 02:27
    -2

    EV would be cool. You should get the coolest car and EV is the coolest out of the technologies you listed.

  • OMGJL on 22/07/2023 - 03:18

    BYD: While it's reasonably priced, it is a Chinese brand, and there's a stigma associated with the durability of Chinese-made cars. I'm worried it might not last 10 years, and if I decide to sell after 3 years (post lease), it might not recover the residual value (46.88%).

    dude… like 1/3 of the car on the street in any bigger Chinese cites are BYDs

    I wouldn't worry about their manufacturing skill.

    Though your concern with warranty is valid, as big as BYD are, they have only just arrived in AUS, so their warranty could still be a mess.

    • dcep on 22/07/2023 - 04:07

      All the distribution/sales/dealerships/aftersales/servicing/warranty of BYD Australia are handled by 3rd party partnership joint venture EV Direct (Eagers Automotive).

  • freefall101 on 22/07/2023 - 04:50
    +3

    What’s wrong with your current car after just 11 years? If you’re doing tonnes of km or aren’t servicing it, that might drive the decision making.

    I have an Atto 3 and it’s great, but the short range compared to upcoming cars is annoying. I wouldn’t expect a major drop in value, demand is still very high, the batteries will be still worth a lot in 3 years and I imagine petrol prices will go up as governments put more pressure on it.

    For a Chinese car there are regular software updates, it works very well, BYD is a battery giant. However with local after market I’ve had trouble getting my deposit and govt rebate sent to me (condition of the novated lease). They have huge volume going on. Pickup was a breeze though on the car. Don’t expect notifications of how it’s tracking though, it’ll just show up one day.

  • payless69 on 22/07/2023 - 07:03

    It is not a stigma!
    There are no real limits of spare part pricing.
    So the very split seconds ot comes out of warranty it is bricked and you are stone tired screaming at them having come so far being endless time in getting it fixed. Ask around!!
    The RAV4 still shines even you need to bridge time with a hybrid….

  • wal990 on 22/07/2023 - 07:20
    +1

    Possible Toyota EV are rubbish and unavailable not to mention overpriced, likewise if you need to replace a car soon you are left with less choices.

    in terms of EV, 90% of whats on the australian market are made in China, they are in fact market leader in electric vehicles. (Audi infact just signed up with SAIC, parent of MG, to utilise their EV platform).

    On EV, Get a Tesla or BYD, or have a look at the MG4.

    • payless69 on 22/07/2023 - 15:10

      your choice:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8

      • naruto128 on 22/07/2023 - 16:21

        Take this video with a pinch of salt cos its been debunked by the Electric Viking

        • payless69 on 22/07/2023 - 20:04
          -1

          Cadogan and tha E Viking are just 2 silly tube comedians!
          They waffle forever to get their youtube algorythm in direction unboxing theraphy. America has Scotty, nothing to do with our boss here.

      • wal990 on 22/07/2023 - 17:38

        no ty, serpentza earns his living bashing china in front of a green screen

        or better yet, share that video with the german execs at Audi.

  • boomramada on 22/07/2023 - 09:51
    +3

    My current vehicle is showing signs of aging (it's 11 years old) and the mechanic suggested that it's time for a replacement.

    Look like OP sux at maintaining a car, definitely get a EV lol.

    But EV only worthwhile if you driving a lot, at least 15k / year.

    • lgacb08 on 30/07/2023 - 11:40

      Either him or his mechanic being a dud. An 11 year old subbie is no shit, he just find an excuse to upgrade.

  • bluegumflat on 22/07/2023 - 09:59

    Sorry to broaden the options but I was told by Goodcar co that their second hand EV Japanese imports are also eligible for the lease discount scheme.

  • Brick Tamland on 22/07/2023 - 12:34
    +2

    I'm drawn towards a Toyota RAV4 EV, but unfortunately, it doesn't exist yet.

    It certainly does exist but unfortunately only sold in California.

    What about the Peugeot 308 GT Sport PHEV for $69,990? These are an amazingly well presented car, very stylish.

    • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 13:14

      It certainly does exist but unfortunately only sold in California.

      The rest of the world gets so many more EV models than our backwards, petrol loving market.

      • Brick Tamland on 22/07/2023 - 14:04
        +2

        Yep. I don’t think people realise how far behind we are when it comes to EVs.

        • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 15:02

          About 6 months ago I saw a YouTube clip in like the top 30 EVs available in UK. Meanwhile we had about 3

          • payless69 on 22/07/2023 - 15:14

            @Euphemistic: UK charging situation is DISMAL!

            Unlikely to change soon. Once London drops its ev exemption their EV's will be dumped!

            • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 17:22

              @payless69: It’s probably poor charging network because so many have adopted EVs and the network hasn’t caught up. I highly doubt EVs will be dumped en mass.

            • BluebirdV on 29/07/2023 - 18:19

              @payless69: Use solar at home instead.

      • bluegumflat on 22/07/2023 - 14:18

        Nissan Ariya another eg. A TeslaY competitor. Maybe next year.

      • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 15:07
        -3

        Not all Australians believe that there is a need to "save the planet", or that reducing Australia's contribution to roughly 1% of worldwide CO2 emissions actually means anything.

        However, those who are not "true believers" are still forced to subsidise the "bed wetters" and the traitors who are either unknowingly or deliberately helping the increased military and political reach of our enemy China.

        It would be MUCH DIFFERENT if China was more benign in how it relates to the world, but it is not.

        It is attempting to dominate, and pressure those that do not "kowtow" to it.

        • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 16:35
          -1

          I don't believe it…..an upvote.

          That makes a nice change.

          So there is some hope for this site, and Australia, yet.

        • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 17:21
          +1

          You don’t have to want to save the planet to realise the EVs are much more efficient, don’t waste energy while stopped, cheaper to fuel, have less noise and vibration, require very little maintenance and don’t require you to go out of your way to refuel when you can plug in at home, work or the shops (yes, long trips are an exception). Plus they turn braking into energy rather than noise and dust.

          But I’m not gonna make you choose either. I just believe EVs are better than ICE in many scenarios.

    • Techie4066 on 23/07/2023 - 20:08

      Or the 3008 Hybrid4, since OP seems to want an SUV. It's one fast car (a second faster 0-100 than even the standard Model Y).

      • Brick Tamland on 23/07/2023 - 20:29

        It's a pricey one though. About $80K

        • Techie4066 on 23/07/2023 - 20:30

          Hmm, I just checked carsales, and I think because they're not shifting some demos are sitting around $70k. Definitely room to haggle there and a superior car than a Model Y for the same money.

          • Brick Tamland on 23/07/2023 - 20:32

            @Techie4066: $80K is overpriced. The 508 PHEV is actually cheaper. Unless you were a complete SUV fiend the 508 is a better buy

  • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 17:54
    -1

    They also cost a lot more, are significantly heavier(ceteris paribus), and need taxpayer funded infrastructure to survive.
    Also, the subsidised electricity infrastructure will need to be subsidised even more to allow significantly more EV's.

    Millions of more hectares of farmland will be set aside for additional solar panels.

    Tens of thousands of km of extra power lines.

    (admittedly not just for EV's, but to reach overall net zero)

    So much for limiting visual pollution.

    • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 18:23

      fossil fuels aren’t exactly subsidy free.

      Solar farms can be placed in areas where farming isn’t practical. We don’t grow produce on the roof of a building either. Coal mining already decimates heaps of good farming lands.

      Think I’d rather have a bit of visual pollution from powerlines and windmills than from coal mining.or a fracking plant.

      Renewable electricity isn’t perfect but it’s a damn sight better than burning stuff that was formed millions of years ago and is going to run out one day.

      • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 13:20

        Speaking of windmills:

        Scots ‘astonished’ as 15.7 million trees felled by SNP to develop wind farms
        Estimations suggest around 15.7 million trees have been cut down since 2000, the equivalent of 1,700 per day.
        By FRANCESCA EDWARDS
        16:15, Sat, Jul 22, 2023 | UPDATED: 16:49, Sat, Jul 22, 2023

        National Trust free passes in Friday's paper
        Scots ‘astonished’ as 15.7 million trees felled by SNP to develop wind farms
        Estimations suggest around 15.7 million trees have been cut down since 2000, the equivalent of 1,700 per day.
        By FRANCESCA EDWARDS
        16:15, Sat, Jul 22, 2023 | UPDATED: 16:49, Sat, Jul 22, 2023
        233BOOKMARK

        Scottish Conservative has say on SNP felling trees
        Scots have been left in "astonishment" after it was revealed the SNP cut down millions of trees to build wind farms.

        Rural affairs secretary Mairi Gougeon admitted the party had felled nearly 16 million trees to make room for the new project as part of the SNP's plans to make Scotland net zero over the next ten years.

        Reacting to the controversial move, Tory MSP Liam Kerr said "astonishing is the right word".

        Appearing on GB News he added: "Not just astonishment at the numbers that we are talking about but the fact of it."

        Estimations suggest around 15.7 million trees have been cut down since 2000, the equivalent of 1,700 per day.

        https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1794037/SNP-cut-down…

        I thought trees absorbed greenhouse gases.

        Cutting them down is obviously going against this.

        I am wondering what is going to do more damage to Scottish birdlife.

        Cats, or tree felling for windfarms?

        There is no need for the intellectual capacity of Einstein to work that one out.

      • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 14:09
        -1

        And yet it is quite OK for China and India to burn coal but not the West.

        Hypocrisy at its finest.

        Why don't you email the embassies of these nations with your complaints about burning coal and see how far you get?

        Better yet…..glue your hands to the walls of these embassies in Canberra like the Extinction Rebellion/Just Stop Oil imbeciles do at Wimbeldon or stopping traffic on the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

        • Euphemistic on 23/07/2023 - 14:42

          It’s not ok for China or India to burn coal either. They’ll transition.

          • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 21:16

            @Euphemistic: Long after the rest of the industrialised world has given them a free pass.

            Both countries are armed with nuclear weapons, but are allowed to keep up their levels of CO2 emissions at a much higher level than other industrialised nations.

            I do not see the fairness in that.

            • Euphemistic on 23/07/2023 - 21:33

              @Leadfoot6: Nobody said the world was fair. Just because someone else doesn’t do something doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do what we can.

              • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 21:51
                -1

                @Euphemistic: But we only produce about 1% of the world's CO2 emissions.

                Turning our economy on it's head and making life much more expensive for the sake of virtue signaling won't improve the climate.

                • Euphemistic on 24/07/2023 - 05:39

                  @Leadfoot6: We aren’t the only ones making changes. our previous governments head in the sand, kowtow to fossil fuel lobbying has meant we now have to carry out th transition faster. If they’d been smart and started the transition earlier we’d be way ahead and our power prices wouldn’t have spiked like they currently are.

                  The price of sun and wind doesn’t change with the whims of global pricing.

                  • Leadfoot6 on 24/07/2023 - 08:59
                    -1

                    @Euphemistic: But despite what Saint Greta has said the sky is not falling:

                    "Greta Thunberg accused of quietly deleting tweet that said ‘humanity would be wiped out’ if fossil fuels not cut by 2023
                    The eco campaigner has been pilloried for allegedly deleting a tweet warning “humanity would be wiped out” if action wasn’t taken by 2023."

                    https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-chang…

                    And I won't exert myself finding a quote from Flim Flam Flannery about there being not enough rainfall to fill the dams, made around 2007.

                    Climate alarmism is a crock.

                    And those forcing me to pay more for electricity are doing so by fraudulent means.

                    I want them to get their hands out of my pockets.

                    They can pay for their own delusions if they want.

                    • Euphemistic on 24/07/2023 - 09:43
                      +1

                      @Leadfoot6: Even if you don’t believe climate change, fossil fuels are a finite resource. They’re gonna run out eventually and as we use up the easy reserves it’s going to get more expensive - it already is. It’s already cheaper to put solar and batteries on your house than to install power lines in some rural settings. I forget the distance where it’s cost effective, but it’s remarkably short, like 1km.

                      Why wouldn’t we want to start using other sources of energy that don’t emit pollution? Ever seen the air in Sydney after a couple of still days? It’s positively brown. Changing to non-emitting vehicles would significantly change that and improve the airway health of everyone.

                      The simple fact you use insults when discussing anyone who is some sort of climate change activist means you’re a lost cause. Climate alarmism is obviously exaggerating for point, and almost as bad as fossil fuel propaganda. Climate science however is real and the vast majority of actual climate scientists agree that things aren’t good.

              • Leadfoot6 on 24/07/2023 - 09:06

                @Euphemistic: There is no imperative to do anything to aid a nation that threatens to bully us.

                • Euphemistic on 24/07/2023 - 09:44

                  @Leadfoot6: True, but they’ll soon work out that not burning stuff is a better way of getting energy and will do it for themselves.

      • quog on 24/07/2023 - 15:23

        so you are going to stop using computers, phones, your tv, internet, electrical wiring (insulation is made from oil), a selection of clothing, running shoes and the like, and etc etc etc.

        you know all the things that are made from oil.

        • Euphemistic on 24/07/2023 - 16:11

          Burning oil is just a waste when we can make other useful stuff out of it.

    • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 21:13
      -1

      To make further reference to the "Millions of more hectares of farmland will be set aside for additional solar panels":

      "Queensland to be ‘covered in glass and steel’ to meet 2032 renewable targets
      July 20, 2023 - 8:41PM
      Environmentalist and Photographer Steven Nowakowski says Australia is looking at “1.8 million hectares” of land in Queensland to be covered in glass and steel within seven years to meet our 2032 targets."

      https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/andrew-bolt/queensland-to…

      This is just Queensland alone, and is put forward by "Environmentalist" Steven Nowakowski.

      https://www.stevennowakowski.com/meet-steven

      The Left are starting to eat their own.

      • Euphemistic on 23/07/2023 - 21:27

        Again with the reputable sky news report. And the so called environmentalist you linked is a photographer, not a scientist. More disingenuous reporting by sky.

        • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 21:44

          Photograpy, periodical writing, and now youtube presentation(see below), is how he makes his living.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxw1t1qV9EM

          He is also a publisher:

          https://www.wheelers.co.nz/browse/publisher/147441-steven-no…

          That does not mean he does not have formal qualifications, or needs to describe himself as a "scientist".

          Some, including yours truly, have formal qualifications in a specific area, but have chosen to make their living in other areas.

          • Euphemistic on 25/07/2023 - 08:12

            @Leadfoot6: Aaah yes. We all know that YouTube is a bastion of truth and no one could possibly get on that platform without any knowledge on what they are discussing. For reference check out flat earth videos.

  • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 18:37
    -1

    You seem to believe that everyone who frequents this site were "born yesterday".

    Fossil fuel use produces revenue for the nation, rather than needing subsidies.

    Royalties when exported…..think coal & LNG.

    Oh, I forgot, you didn't do Economics at university so you do not understand the difference between taxation revenue/royalties(incoming dollars) as opposed to subsidies(outgoing dollars).

    There are other elements involved in the overall equation, but you are ignoring too much, or just "glossing over" too much.

    Coal does not "decimate"(wrong term used here) millions of hectares of farming land.

    "A bit"(of extra)?

    Instead of telling you to grow up, I will in this instance just say that you are extremely deficient in doing your research.

    We do of course have nuclear…..fission now…..SMR soon…..fusion later.

    OH THE HUMANITY…..

    Of course, we could always liquify our own vast coal reserves for use in transport vehicles of all sizes.

    The Germans developed the means to do this before and during World War 2.

    • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 21:06

      Fossil fuel use produces revenue for the nation, rather than needing subsidies.

      We import petrol and diesel in vast quantities. That doesn’t raise any revenue.

      Coal does not "decimate"(wrong term used here) millions of hectares of farming land.

      Neither does solar farms but that didn’t stop you from making the point earlier. As for mines not decimating the landscape, take a trip around the Hunter valley - most of which happens to be pretty good farming land - and see how much of the place is covered in overburden.

      • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 22:06
        -1

        You must get free petrol.

        How much tax per litre(excise and GST) goes to the federal government on liquid fuels?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Australia#Excise…

        SURELY you must know about this?

        What % of Australian land area is the Hunter Valley?

        There is a map on this page showing mine activity:

        https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=coal+mines+in+t…

        It seems rather tiny in comparison to the size of Australia.

        • Euphemistic on 22/07/2023 - 22:07

          Great. Now show me areas decimated by solar panels. Some estimates say we’d need approx 1000 square kms of panels to power Aus. Our total land size is 7.6million km2 so we should be OK.

          How much tax per litre(excise and GST) goes to the federal government on liquid fuels?

          None of that tax brings money into the country, which I think was your original point. We sell coal and get revenue. The tax on petrol comes from within Australia. I thought you understood economics.

          • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 22:24
            -2

            @Euphemistic: Are you yet to acknowledge the taxes paid(revenue) on use of liquid fuels in Australia?

            You did not comment on the point I made above.

          • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 22:37
            -1

            @Euphemistic: "Great. Now show me areas decimated by solar panels. Some estimates say we’d need approx 1000 square kms of panels to power Aus. Our total land size is 7.6million km2 so we should be OK."

            I could make a suggestion as to where you got your "1000 square kms of panels ….." figure from.

            It would be somewhat indelicate, but close to accurate.

            Your figure, unattributed, is vastly different to what I supplied below.

            • Euphemistic on 23/07/2023 - 07:58
              +2

              @Leadfoot6: Pretty much all of your comments come done to grumpy old man syndrome “I don’t like change”

              • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 12:11

                @Euphemistic: Your standard of research, suggesting only 1000sq km for solar panels Australia wide, is abysmal.

                With standards so low, you would easily qualify for a job working for Blackout Bowen.

                Admittedly, my source covers TOTAL estimated coverage area for solar, wind turbines, and transmission lines, whereas your "guestimate" only covered solar, but even so you are wrong by such a massive amount.

                Anyway, following is a source from The Guardian, which would normally be considered to be patronised by a much younger or much less conservative audience than Sky News, which is complaining about "change" to a natural environment in North Queensland:

                "Conservationists rubbish plan to build a windfarm near protected north Queensland rainforests
                About 1,000ha of native vegetation will have to be cleared to build the proposed Chalumbin windfarm on the edge of the world heritage area"

                https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/22/conse…

                • Euphemistic on 23/07/2023 - 13:11

                  @Leadfoot6:

                  Admittedly, my source covers TOTAL estimated coverage area for solar, wind turbines, and transmission lines

                  And you call my research bad (yes, it was pretty poor). Your is downright disingenuous

                  We need to maintain a good amount of awareness when it comes to land clearing - even for wind farms or solar generation or transmission lines. Everything we do affects the environment, it’s just prudent to ask proper questions of corporate interests. Corporations have a terrible record of not doing ‘the right thing’ in the pursuit of profits.

                  • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 13:16
                    -1

                    @Euphemistic: You did not pick that up by yourself.

                    You needed to be alerted to it.

                    You can, of course, provide your own research that disputes what I sourced.

                    I'll be patiently waiting.

              • Leadfoot6 on 23/07/2023 - 13:58
                -2

                @Euphemistic: Pretty much all of your comments come done to grumpy old man syndrome “I don’t like change”

                https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/14066176/redir

                "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

  • Leadfoot6 on 22/07/2023 - 22:28
    -1

    […..]Yet tens of thousands of others endure the loss of natural amenities, the noise, dust and frustration of construction and the loss of property value with no compensation beyond the joy of knowing they have sacrificed for a greater cause.

    Last week’s report by Net Zero Australia, ‘How to make net zero happen’, showed that the battle between the green energy industrial complex and the forgotten Australians has only just begun.

    It estimates that 120,179 square kilometres of land must be commandeered for wind turbines, solar panels and transmission lines if Australia continues to pursue its net-zero goal with wind, water and solar power alone.

    That’s an area half the size of Victoria or twice the size of Tasmania.

    Very little of it is industrial land.

    Much of it will be farming land supplemented by considerable areas of remnant forests and other bushland.

    None of that land is likely to be within the boundaries of Green or Teal independent seats, the most vocal advocates of renewable energy and staunchest opponents of the far more practical clean energy alternative, nuclear power.

    […..]

    https://www.skynews.com.au/insights-and-analysis/everyday-au…

    • Euphemistic on 23/07/2023 - 06:52

      Oh absolutely. We all trust sky news to give us accurate information regarding renewable energy. And yeah we are going to install all our solar panels on perfect farming land.

      Yet tens of thousands of others endure the loss of natural amenities, the noise, dust and frustration of construction and the loss of property value with no compensation beyond the joy of knowing they have sacrificed for a greater cause.

      More propaganda. We all get the same noise, dust etc from construction of roads, houses and factories but that doesn’t seem to be a major issue. Do you not think that destroying a small town for a coal mine doesn’t have any impact on farmers and residents? You can find arguments for both sides. You can find a lot more propaganda on the side of fossil fuels. Those same fossil fuel companies that are heavily investing in renewable energy sources and battery powered equipment so the don’t have to buy their own products to power their own equipment.

      We are already getting 10% of our power from solar. I can’t see any signs of it covering 129000km2 for our energy needs.

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