Germany Will Block Europe's Gas and Diesel Ban Unless Synthetic Fuel Is Allowed

LLeadfoot6 on 02/03/2023 - 23:46
Last edited 03/03/2023 - 11:14 by 2 other users

Burned: Germany will block Europe's gas and diesel ban unless synthetic fuel is allowed

Carbon-neutral fuel doesn't contribute new greenhouse gases.

Carbon neutral liquid fuels may put a spanner in the works to those who want us all to bow down to solar powered cars, to the exclusion of everything else.

The European Union has proposed rules that will effectively end the sale of new gas and diesel-powered cars in 2035, but Germany wants to keep internal combustion alive in the electric age.

The country's transport minister, Voker Wissing, said it won't back the proposal unless engines burning carbon-neutral synthetic fuels, known as e-fuels, are allowed.

"The EU Commission should propose regulation that allows combustion engines to be registered after 2035, if they can verifiably only be fueled with synthetic fuels," he told reporters in Berlin.

Synthetic fuels are being developed that are created using water and carbon captured from the atmosphere, so they don't contribute any additional greenhouse gases when burned.

German automaker Porsche is set to use an e-fuel in the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup racing series this year.

It's produced by Highly Innovative Fuels in Punta Arenas, Chile, in a pilot factory powered by wind turbines that the automaker has invested in and has been demonstrated in a production 911 that was able to use it without any modifications to its engine.

It costs $45 per gallon to make today, but the price is expected to drop to $8 by 2026 and continue to be reduced from there. Conventional gasoline currently sells for around $7 per gallon in Germany.

Automotive

Comments

- - - - Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 18:05
        
        @freefall101: No.
        
        Because on principle the "green" revolutionaries are forcing, by fraud, the increasing roll out of wind farms, solar panels etc. and I will not join the lemmings jumping over the cliff.
        
        Billions of dollars are being diverted to duplicate power generation/distribution networks.
        
        The world is not ending any time soon from "global warming" or whatever "catchphrase:" is being touted this week.
        
        This wasted money is slowing economic growth, whilst China gets a free hand to pollute as and when it likes without penalty.
        
        They are gaining at our expense.
        
        Speaking of expense, I only spend $40 p/w on fuel.
        
        To me, it does not make financial sense to pay out $45,000 or more to get a car to save maybe $15/20p/w.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 19:00
        
        @Leadfoot6:
        
        Billions of dollars are being diverted to duplicate power generation/distribution networks.
        
        Umm. No. Not duplicating distribution networks. Yes, investing money in a solution in preparation for when coal is phased out because renewables just make more sense in the long term.
        
        And yes, even if climate change is a scam why wouldn’t you want energy that comes from a free source and not from digging up billions of tonnes of dirt to burn coal in polluting generators - and not just carbon dioxide, but all the ash and other crap that you need to find a hole in the ground for.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 19:03
        
        -1
        
        @Euphemistic: Of course they are duplicating.
        
        When the proposed wind farm is completed off the Illawarra cost how will the electricity generated get to the power grid?
        
        How does the huge wind farm near Goulburn on the Hume Highway get to the grid?
        
        And it is not "free".
        
        Someone, like the taxpayer, has paid for it.
        
        No taxpayer has been paying for my grid electricity.
        
        I'm still waiting for "Airbus" to hand over the $275 that was promised.
        
        I knew it would never happen, but I was not stupid enough to vote for his crowd.
        
        Snowy 2.0 budget out to $10 billion from 2 billion.
        
        Who pays for that?
        
        The following article is behind a paywall, but the headline will do.
        
        "Five years on, Snowy 2.0 emerges as a $10 billion white elephant"
        
        https://www.smh.com.au/national/five-years-on-snowy-2-0-emer…
        
        Not Sky News, instead from the Fairfax group, who are very left.
        
        At 2 min.06 of this video from the ABC:
        
        says $12-14 billion eek!
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kc7B-6g6PY
        
        I'm not sure how accurate that the later figure will be, but it has blown out to a huge extent.
        
        It is not "free", and apparently won't be finished until 2028, according to the video from the ABC.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 19:22
        
        @Leadfoot6:
        
        When the proposed wind farm is completed off the Illawarra cost how will the electricity generated get to the power grid?
        
        That’s not duplicating the grid. That’s connecting a power plant to the grid. How do you think they got all the sparks out of any of the coal stations when they were built.
        
        And it’s not “free”
        
        No it’s not free, but once you install and connect them there is no further cost for inputs like coal.
        
        Who pays for that?
        
        taxpayers do. Snowy II might be a screwup, but that’s not much different to a budget blowout on other major infrastructure like roads and stadiums. Not that it’s acceptable, but it’s not uncommon.
        
        Solar and wind are relatively straight forward and budget blowouts are significantly less.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 19:24
        
        @Euphemistic: No duplication of the grid?
        
        Your dictionary is different to mine.
        
        And @4.30 to about 6.00 some strong comments about duplication, coming from someone who is "an in-law of Malcolm Turnbull".
        
        More "interesting" comments @7.00
        
        Bazinga.
        
        And the ABC as a source?
        
        Any "smart…." comments?
        
        Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 19:42
        
        @Leadfoot6: Duplication: the act or process of doing the same thing that another person has already done:
        
        Building a new power station and connecting to the grid isn’t duplication. Building a second grid would be duplication, but they are just adding to it. They are adding generators to the grid to replace the aging coal fired stations that are due for retirement. The new generators that are being added will have lower overall costs than building new coal stations.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 20:18
        
        @Euphemistic: You obviously have not looked at the video.
        
        I know why.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 21:09
        
        @Leadfoot6: I can’t be bothered looking at it. I’m confident you are correct about snowy II having a massive budget blowout unlike my confidence in many of your other arguments that are peppered with the usual fox talking points.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 21:20
        
        @Euphemistic: Just like the Fox talking points, they are duplicated(there is that word again) by the other sources that I linked to, or were available to be viewed easily.
        
        "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
        
        Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 22:06
        
        @Leadfoot6: Unfortunately it’s really hard to lead a horse back away from the koolaid as well.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 22:13
        
        @Euphemistic: I'm a diabetic.
        
        I can't drink Koolaid.
        
        Too much sugar.
        
        And I hate artificial colours.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 12:31
        
        @Euphemistic: Here is more "good" news about Snowy Hydro, and from the very "lefty" Guardian:
        
        "Snowy Hydro 2.0 project hit by delay of up to two years and another cost blowout
        Government-owned company pushes earliest start date of pumped hydro project to the second half of 2028
        […..]"
        
        https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/may/03/snowy…
        
        This would not be such a big problem in isolation.
        
        Unfortunately, Liddell was shut down last week…..
        
        "[…..]
        Mike Kelly, president of the Muswellbrook Chamber of Commerce and Industry, further up the Hunter Valley, says it’s still unclear what will replace Liddell.
        […..]"
        
        https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/17/it-ca…
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 14:20
        
        @Leadfoot6: Liddell was shut down last week and ever since we’ve had no blackout after no blackout
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 14:49
        
        @Euphemistic: I thought that you might have been more intelligent than that.
        Obviously misplaced.
        Demand in the future is expected to rise, what with massively increased immigration and all.
        Also, power demand is seasonal.
        It fluctuates.
        Are you familiar with the concept of "peaks and troughs"?
        
        Don't worry.
        "Blackout Bowen" will have plenty of time in the future to confirm the aptness of his new moniker.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 16:34
        
        @Leadfoot6: They wouldn’t have planned to shut it down if they didn’t think there was sufficient capacity on the grid. It’s not like they decided yesterday to shut it down.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 17:41
        
        @Euphemistic: Um, facilities like Snowy Hydro were planned a number of years ago to be up and running sooner.
        And the article I linked to today proves that such a "pipe dream", quite an apt description even if I say so myself, is a fallacy.
        It WILL cause problems in the future.
        
        According to "greenie" imbecile activists like US politician AOC we only had 12 years to go before climate disaster.
        
        Will she grant an extension because of the 2 year delay to Snowy Hydro that I linked to above?
        
        'The world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change,' Ocasio-Cortez says
        William Cummings
        USA TODAY
        
        https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2019…
        
        She said this in 2019.
        
        What a moron.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 18:07
        
        @Leadfoot6: Hope you aren’t using lights or TV tonight. We need all the dorks to go to lower the hospitals and football stadiums now that Liddell has closed.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 18:25
        
        @Euphemistic: I'm sorry, but I will have to admit that I am not astute enough or insightful enough to understand the meaning of your post.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 18:29
        
        @Leadfoot6: Seems my fat fingers got an autocorrect to go to dorks from sparks. Now that Liddell is shut we all need to do our bit and shut off unnecessary items so that we don’t get blackouts and end up shutting down hospitals or more importantly, putting football into darkness.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 18:32
        
        @Euphemistic: I'm not surprised, but that is the usual response born from an overfondness of communism.
        It is not a regime that I am overly happy with making accommodations for.
        It seems appropriate, but you seem to be drinking from the well dug by AOC.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 18:33
        
        @Leadfoot6: Struggling with sarcasm are you?
        
        We aren’t gonna run out of power.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 18:35
        
        @Euphemistic: We could be using cheaper power.
        Instead, resources are being diverted to subsidising other things that now cost more.
        "Blackout Bowen" will welcome your reassurance, but the fat lady is only just warming up.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 18:39
        
        @Leadfoot6: But that won’t cost more in the long run. Yes, the cost is up front like anything. Ongoing cost is tiny compared to fossil fuels or nuclear. It’s not economical to build new coal stations and it’s not economical to continue them on indefinitely.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 18:47
        
        @Euphemistic: Many industry figures disagree.
        Just watch Sky News to get the "good oil"…..sorry about the pun.
        
        With the years and years previously of force feeding "green" energy onto the market, energy bills should have been well and truly decreasing by now.
        
        Albo told me so many times…..$275 reduction rings a bell.
        Was he telling a big fat lie?
        On purpose?
        I believe so.
        
        You know(but won't admit it) and I know that electricity bills are not getting smaller, even though most people are making attempts to cut back.
        I spent a significant amount of time last winter attempting to "draught proof" my house.
        I spent money on thermostat regulating devices to try to cut down on heating.
        I don't have air conditioning.
        I turn off every light possible.
        I actually risk falls due to darkness that could be avoided if electricity costs were lower.
        I am getting older and am experiencing some mobility issues.
        I have nowhere else to go.
        Except bend over.
        
        Euphemistic on 03/05/2023 - 20:47
        
        +2
        
        @Leadfoot6: If you stop watching Sky news your life would probably appear to improve. It’s all negative, fear mongering owned by a bloke who just paid out near $1b because they were lying to viewers and won’t even admit it on their own network because it doesn’t fit the narrative.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/05/2023 - 23:10
        
        @Euphemistic: I access a number of different news sources including, for example, The Guardian(very left wing) that I linked to earlier today.
        
        I have linked to 3 articles here today, none of which was a Sky News source.
        
        Not watching Sky News will not put extra money in the bank to pay the increased electricity bills that I know are coming.
        
        Not watching Sky News does not give me a "free pass" to prevent the power blackouts that are predicted.
        
        At about 3.00pm earlier today(12 posts ago) I made the following comment about you:
        
        "I thought that you might have been more intelligent than that.
        Obviously misplaced."
        
        You have just emphatically confirmed that my perception of you was correct.
        
        Whilst I am at it, should I take my "soma" pill, which is a reference to the dystopian novel "A Brave New World"?
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
        
        Will this help me to process bad news in a manner more in keeping with the potential disaster that is developing in Australian society?
        
        Euphemistic on 04/05/2023 - 08:43
        
        +1
        
        @Leadfoot6: I don’t mind being considered less than intelligent by someone who what’s been brainwashed by anti-science, pro-oil Sky News.
        
        That same Sky News that promotes big business and trickle down economics that actively work against providing properly for pensioners and the less fortunate.
        
        Hackney on 04/05/2023 - 12:05
        
        @Euphemistic: Well said! One certainly has issues if they believe SKY & Fox.Both are absolutely crap news casters.
Switchblade88 on 03/03/2023 - 11:59

+2

To play devil's advocate here, until such time as EV charging is readily available to rural areas then fossil fuels will still be inevitable in the bush. There's too many issues when you have to drive several hundred k's for specialist appointments and there's no available charging hardware en route. Europe is a highly populated continent so chargers are everywhere, and banning fuel won't be as big of an issue.

Maybe the OP should consider the economics - electricity is 4.5x cheaper than fossil fuel to run your vehicle, and that means the market will gravitate to the cheapest option - and certainly not to synthetic hydrocarbons that are more expensive. Consumers didn't buy into E10 since the 2c savings from U91 is not enough to make any significant difference to your hip pocket.

Having said all that, the 'automotive forum moderator' would rather post on OzBargain than in his own forum?? THAT'S an indictment against them, lol
- Crow K on 03/03/2023 - 12:34
  
  +1
  
  I reckon Scotty should do a deal with them, instead of the penalty box BAM across you go to spend some time on the sort of board that would have this guy as a mod.
  
  It'd straighten the heck outta me, no lie.
- Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 12:42
  
  I'm active on a number of forums, where I have also posted related subject material.
  - Crow K on 03/03/2023 - 12:48
    
    +4
    
    Like this, right? https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/3jwqj7q9?p=3
    
    "Mincers and metros". What a piece of work.
    - Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 13:05
      
      -2
      
      Yes, that's right.
      
      But because I live in a democracy that my father fought to defend, I have a right to have and express my opinion even though you might disagree with it.
      - Crow K on 03/03/2023 - 13:14
        
        +1
        
        @Leadfoot6: You don't need to quote yourself from that very same thread, I'm sure anyone interested to hear your further thoughts (anyone? .. anyone?) can go read them there. Even people who don't mind making a bit of mince beef in the kitchen.
        
        Incidentally, everyone here has those rights. You might as well be telling us about your rights to breathe air while you're at it.
        
        Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 13:34
        
        -2
        
        @Crow K: But you seem to be disputing my right to express these opinions, or at least think them.
        
        Crow K on 03/03/2023 - 13:40
        
        +3
        
        @Leadfoot6: Your victimhood narrative would be a lot easier if that was happening (can't even imagine what sort of steps I'd need to take to try to make you stop thinking certain things, but I promise you I'm not a mind-wiping hypnotist).
        
        No, you exercised your right to state your view on 'mincers and metros', and I exercised my right to state my view it's an embarrassing and backwards-looking view of the world. Telling you you've said a stupid thing isn't taking away your rights to say stupid things.
        
        pegaxs on 04/03/2023 - 09:11
        
        +1
        
        @Crow K:
        
        Status: In the penalty box
        
        I think that pretty much sums up their account on Whingepool. So much for their father fighting in a world war, it was all for nought now that their "Freedumb of expression" has been revoked.
        
        Good lord, their comments over on Whingepool are cringe… :/
        
        Euphemistic on 04/03/2023 - 09:45
        
        +1
        
        @Crow K:
        
        Telling you you've said a stupid thing isn't taking away your rights to say stupid things.
        
        This. And the more we tell people they are saying stupid things, the more likely they are to think about it recognise it is stupid and not say them anymore.
Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 13:51

-1

You might think my thoughts are "stupid".

I don't agree, and will continue to say so.
- Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 15:52
  
  +2
  
  Maybe not stupid, misguided definitely. If you can’t see the headline you’ve posted is sensationalised, like most of the headlines we see, then …
  
  Continuing to say so is part of the problem. Shouting the wrong thing louder so doesn’t make it any more right.
  
  Most people on this forum can see the writing on the wall for ICE. No one is forcing you to buy an EV. Synthetic fuels are not going to play a big role in our future transport needs.
Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 15:57

CrowReally, 3 posts above, did refer to my thoughts as "stupid".

A number of different interest groups and organisations, Porsche included, are investing large sums in keeping petrol type vehicles into the future.

And you should have worked out by now that I will not be "bending" for anyone…..especially for you.
- Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 16:49
  
  +3
  
  Seems you’re not that crash hot at replying to the correct posts. Thought a forum moderator would be all over that sort of stuff.
  
  And you should have worked out by now that I will not be "bending" for anyone…..especially for you.
  
  You realise that’s not a good thing right?
  - pegaxs on 03/03/2023 - 17:23
    
    "i'M a CaR fOrUm MoDeRaToR!!1!11!" but cant use the indent/quote formatting and doesn't know where the "reply" button is…
    
    It all reminds me of that Navy Seal copypasta, but with Navy Seal crossed out and "automotive forum moderator" instead…
    
    What the (fropanity) did you just (fropanity) say about me, you little (fropanity)? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in CAMS, and I've been involved in numerous secret races on Calder Park Speedway, and I have over 300 confirmed laps. I am trained in light aircraft piloting and I'm the top sprint and gymkhana racer in the entire Macquarie University Auto Club. You are nothing to me but just another lapped car…
    - Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 18:56
      
      but cant use the indent/quote formatting and doesn't know where the "reply" button is…
      
      To be a little bit fair, this forum is unlike other in my experience. The quote thing isn’t intuitive (but easily to find if you look) and the reply thing is more akin to face ache than other forums.
      
      That being said, I figured it out, can’t be that hard.
Leadfoot6 on 03/03/2023 - 16:54

So, what correct posts?

AFAIK I have replied to all posts which is a lot more than anyone else in this thread.

Please point out any posts that I have not replied to in this thread.

Furthermore, and finally, is any of this "nit picking" relevant to synthetic fuels?

I don't believe all of this "off topic" material is germane to the thread.
- Euphemistic on 03/03/2023 - 17:23
  
  Again. You replied in general to the thread rather than replying to a specific comment. It’s not a problem, it’s an awareness thing for making it easier to follow the thread.
  
  (I’ve been guilty of it too)
  
  As for nit picking, yes it’s probably a bit much, but will help for future reference. Besides you seem to live jumping on the China thing when it’s not really relevant.
WreckTangle on 29/03/2023 - 20:58

Merged from EU and Germany come to a weird arrangement about future car emissions

So apparently in the EU all cars sold from 2035 must produce zero emissions, and Germany has just talked them into allowing climate neutral e-fuels. But is this e-fuel even a realistic thing…seems like its only a step away from making an exemption for cars running on pixie dust. Seems like a win for the EU’s original plan.
- theHMASfriendship on 29/03/2023 - 21:00
  
  What is your question?
  - WreckTangle on 29/03/2023 - 21:02
    
    My question “is this e-fuel even a realistic thing?”
    - theHMASfriendship on 29/03/2023 - 21:04
      
      +1
      
      With scale, yes.
- brendanm on 29/03/2023 - 21:01
  
  Maybe
- Bafranz on 29/03/2023 - 21:03
  
  +1
  
  Similar to formula 1 biofuel who are aiming for net zero.. it'll trickle down to production cars
- MS Paint on 29/03/2023 - 21:19
  
  +3
  
  Germany has just talked them into allowing climate neutral e-fuels.
  
  Porsche (a German co.) own 12% of a synthetic fuel company. They make EVs already but are keen to continue ICE cars and keeping their current ICE cars on the road for as long as possible. Plenty of videos on YouTube about it. Looking like pretty impressive tech at this stage IMHO.
- cashless on 29/03/2023 - 21:39
  
  +3
  
  Germany and EU
  
  Germany is in EU?
- payless69 on 29/03/2023 - 21:54
  
  Too many greenies killing nuclear power and burn coal instead. Driving an EV there is pretty well same price as ICE. How good is burning coal while France mostly uses nuclear.
  Despite power shortages VW and Merc are heading full steam towards EV.
  Bio fuels been around for ages, but Ukrainian crops getting less things are tightening up.
  They need zillions of batteries to balance their grid to go EV. No proper mountains for hydro just wind and solar. Many home owners are now switching heating from gas to heat pump.
  Car makers want to keep the unlimited speed and greenies want to make it so expensive that you slow down because of costs.
- cookie2 on 29/03/2023 - 22:09
  
  As in ANY car sold? Or just new cars?
- AustriaBargain on 29/03/2023 - 22:14
  
  Sucking carbon from thin air to make fuel with, that can't have a better future than batteries in EVs. But who knows.
- freefall101 on 29/03/2023 - 23:30
  
  -1
  
  I answered this in the last thread:
  
  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-asks-eu-wiggle-… - A much better article.
  
  The EU has already passed the law, Germany won't block anything. However the law contains a provision about how CO2 neutral fuels can be used and Germany has asked the EU to define what those rules will be.
  
  In other words, it's a boring story where Germany asked the EU to clarify the rules. However right wing journalists tried to spin it as a fight on electric vs petrol cars because they're stupid hacks who aren't interested in reality.
  - Leadfoot6 on 29/03/2023 - 23:56
    
    My thread, and the article it is based on, covers more ground than what your article deals with.
    
    And, if mods want to have different threads covering the same material, it is up to them.
    
    I can only influence moderation policy at the forum I am moderator on, not elsewhere, and make a suggestion here that I believe to be appropriate.
- Euphemistic on 30/03/2023 - 08:34
  
  +2
  
  Synthetic fuels are only ever going to be a niche thing. They are significantly less energy efficient than renewable electricity into a battery EV.
Leadfoot6 on 21/04/2023 - 00:01

-1

In the USA similar initiatives are being considered:

"Chevron, Exxon pursue cleaner gasoline as alternative to EVs

HOUSTON, April 19 (Reuters) - The two largest U.S. oil companies are road testing renewable gasoline blends that they say could bring down emissions from conventional autos to levels competitive with electric vehicles (EVs).

The fuels being promoted by Chevron Corp (CVX.N) and Exxon Mobil Corp (XOM.N), if made commercially available, potentially would extend the life of the gasoline market as part of the world's transition to cleaner fuels and electric vehicles.

"We really believe there has to be alternatives for the light duty vehicle," Chevron President of Americas Products Andy Walz said at an event on Wednesday to road test the fuel. "Electrification is not the only answer."

Chevron and Exxon disclosed in the past days test results from partnerships with automaker Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) using renewable gasoline partially made from soybeans or other non-fossil feedstocks. The blends could be used by the existing U.S. car fleet and gas stations, the oil majors have said.

The tests came as U.S. President Joe Biden's administration last week proposed new pollution standards that could result in EVs accounting for up to two-thirds of U.S. light vehicle sales by 2032, according to government calculations.

[…..]

The companies use different metrics to measure emissions. Exxon said its renewable gasoline could reduce emissions by as much as 75% compared to conventional gasoline on a life cycle basis. Chevron said its blend was more than 40% less carbon intensive than traditional gasoline, including the carbon intensity of manufacturing the vehicle."

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/chevro…

P.S. I trust that Reuters will not be rejected by the snowflakes here as being a "right wing nutjob" source.

Germany Will Block Europe's Gas and Diesel Ban Unless Synthetic Fuel Is Allowed

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Merged from EU and Germany come to a weird arrangement about future car emissions

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