By what year, should all fossil fuel passenger vehicles be banned from use on Australian public roads?
So that is both new & used vehicles
Doesn't include freight trucks, mining vehicles or trains (in this poll).
For those who choose 'Never' - do you accept the relevant science of the health effects of airborne carcinogens/pollutants from vehicle exhaust? Do you accept the science of anthropogenic global warming?
@Juice-Wa: The way they became renewable was my turning off the gas turbines. Worst case they could be switched on.
@Clear: No, they regularly import power from the mainland. In the last 7 days imports make up 25% of the power supply.
Haha, I'm imagining the prius southpark episode
A lot of reeducation needs to happen fast ,
Needs to start in parliament!
how can people be this ignorant.
Lobbyists' money
Education wont change a damn thing.
The rolling blackouts will though.
Sounds like the education needs to begin with you.
The infrastructure isnt there, nor can we see the pace to have one…
Electric also puts burden of other resources - why do people feel like it is free? You pay upfront added cost, then charging cost.
I honestly don't see the difference if the break even point is in 6-7 years and by then something major needs replacing.
Will believe this concept more when they have solar panels on the roof with a spare battery that charges while the primary one is being used to drive.
What major needs replacing in 6-7 years? There isn't anything. The major breaking point at the moment is about 20-30 years for most EVs at a bare minimum, for those with liquid cooled batteries (just about all of them now).
Also depending on the EV you buy and how much you drive the break even could be 3 years.
Battery life is 20 to 30 years.
Where did that data come from?
Looking at the trends of the avg Tesla, which is the model I believe we have the most data on. It correlates with my own experience with my 8.5 year old EV. In fact 20 would be a bad run.
Where does any alternative data come from?
@Jackson: Their warranty?
One of my old laptops the battery can hold 5% but it hasn't exploded, so I guess it has lasted? Still with no AC power it'll only power the device for 30-60 seconds and for any actual use would need a replacement.
What degree of scrutiny should we allow EV's for range drop?
Their warranty
I assume you also judge ice engines as only lasting as long as their warranty period also?
@SBOB: What do dino cars have to do with my question? It's about the efficiency of batteries.
Dino engines with can still use the same L/100km after 200,000-300,000km's on the same engine (sometimes even over 1mil). Can we say the same for EV? Tesla allow for a 30% drop in efficiency before you can even make a warranty claim. Would replacing the batteries be kin to a new dino engine?
As I said, what degree of scrutiny do we allow for efficiency before a battery is classed as 'not working'?
@A-mak: Their batteries are dropping about 2% a year, so nothing worth considering. Warranty is only really there for failures. Of course there's outliers, but there is in the ICE world too. Nothing to write home about, like every other diversionary tactic usually raised by anti EV mob.
Speaking from experience, I am 8.5 years in and 110k and the car drives like brand new. I have had degredation, but less than most anti EV people claimed I would have. In the meantime the car has paid for itself between the petrol and servicing savings
@Jackson: At what efficiency/range drop would you consider 'it's time to sell'? And what expectation of return would you have on the second-hand market?
That's great about your savings, but what about the difference between dino's and ev's on the second/third-hand markets? Do you expect to replace your battery pack prior to sale? I think some on this market would be in shock at the cost.
Thanks.
@A-mak: Considering the car feels as tight as new, and will likely never leak anything, I plan to keep it as long as I can. Considering how 99% of trips are under withing the range limits, I haven't hit the point where it's not the primary car yet. If it happens in a few years time (I don't expect it to happen in the next 3), I will just phase in the use of my second ICE car (we have 2 cars) which get very little use atm. The plan is that I won't upgrade until I can get a 7 or 8 seater EV for a reasonable price, but if one doesn't get released and I need a long range vehicle there's always a chance I can get an after market battery.
The cost of the car and how much I will get for it is moot, because the car pays me to drive it. Every km is money saved on petrol, brake pads, servicing. As it's paid for itself already, if I wrote it off tomorrow I would be ahead, and I am fine with that. But since I really like the car, I would consider getting a new long range battery put in one day if available and it wasn't too expensive. Anything up to 20k could be worth it if the battery and specs were right. I wouldn't get a new battery for someone else to drive it, that would be madness, since unless you are doing it yourself you can't make money one that, but that's the same as souping up any ICE car, drop a turbo in and respray a car and no way anyone will py you the price of part and labour on the market, unless it's a classic
@Jackson: If you've done 110k then you've saved about $15k in petrol (ignoring electricity cost), how much did you pay for the car that it has paid for itself at $15k?
Following the argument above, isn't the concern that resale will be poor because of the risk of needing to replace battery etc? So for the EV to stack up, it needs to not only bridge the upfront cost difference but also the resale, through reduced fuel/servicing cost.
@Gladioli: I paid 22k for the car, and yes at least 15k in petrol (but more going off my records, I usually pay about 2500/year), but servicing which conservatively would be about 500/year so so another $2500 which would amount to at least $20.5k, not to mention from 100k km you hit your major service, and that's at least 1k. Car still goes and drives fine, so looking at least 3 more years of service on the current battery if it's my primary, but many more as a secondary vehicle. As mentioned once your car has paid for itself, you are ahead of every ICE vehcle on the planet, so if it brings in $0 you are still ahead. Since with ICE vehicles you are relying on the resale to recoup money, you can only get ahead if your car appreciates. Your daily driver will almost never appreciate, unless it's a modern classic e.g. V8 Commodore and then it will still be years after it turns 30.
On electricity, often you get a free charge, whether it's at shops, other people's houses, or off solar. Combined with the low comparitive cost of electricity, the cost is negligible.
@Jackson: Just looked up some typical usage figures for electric cars and 'comparative cost of electricity… is negligible' is a long shot. For a small car it looks likely to be at least half the cost of an equivalent ICE.
Sure you've got some savings on servicing etc, but the way you view it includes some very optimistic assumptions.
I'm keen for an EV when I can get a cost effective 7-8 seater and also have confidence that I can get reliable and cost effective green energy. But until then, I'll stick with the better value.
@Gladioli: See, now I am thinking you are a typical naysayer or that you your sources are. I pay about 11. 50 compared to a tank if gas in my old car, which was a 2L from 2004. A tank of petrol in that car on a good day was 70 bucks, on a bad day much more. Thats my worst case scenario, when the electricity is not free. Call that half way? Not in my book. Part of the reason might be that I have a smaller battery than most, and part that while my old car is the around same size, it may not be as efficient as a brand new model, but either way the difference is stark.
I am also looking for a 7 seater but the only one at the moment is a model x which is expensive. I missed the BYD e6, which hey only brought 40 out nationally and sold for 40k. I am burning because it was just what I wanted, a cheap long range van that didn't have Al the stupid bells and whistles that EVs are known for. They sell them in places like India and Europe but not here for some reason.
Regarding green energy reliability, generating your own solar is the easiest way, and you can always pay a small premium on your bill.
@Jackson: You have to compare apples with apples though, new car with new car. If a new EV uses 15kwh/100km, plus charging inefficiencies, and a new car of the same size uses 7l/100km, you end up with about half the cost for electricity compared to fuel. All well and good to pay a premium for green energy, but this also makes the cost gap smaller.
All I'm saying is, make sure you don't overlook the true costs when saying what a good option am EV is. People won't get on board if you overstate the benefits, they will just be disappointed when they do their own research.
On the other hand, if you state it truthfully and add on the less tangible benefits of potentially saving the planet, perhaps people will be willing to bridge the small(?) cost gap for this reason.
https://lightyear.one/lightyear-0/
https://lightyear.one/lightyear-2
Ok, so there are some compromises but this is a good start.
Yes, the Lightyear 0 costs a quarter million, but that's (obviously) not for everyone, perhaps more of a capital raising effort. The Lightyear 2 is supposed to be more for the masses.
Are they actual serious about a solar panel roof meaning you don't have to charge for weeks or months?
Are they actual serious about a solar panel roof meaning you don't have to charge for weeks or months?
based on their states it would need to be charging about 8kwh from the solar panels to give 70km range a day (using their home charging rates as example range per kw)
A decent 4-500W panel does about ~3-4kwh DC in a day for good sun (based on a quick google)
so would need a fairly sizeable bit of roof space to hit 8kwh
would be impressive if you could just leave it parked outside in the south of spain and get 70km a day (clearly ideal sun conditions)
No EV cars require the same resources as ICE cars.
For example roads consume an enormous amount of fossil fuels. Bitumen comes from OIL. Concrete is a major contributor to green house gas, contributing about 10% of all green house gases.
Its amazing how so many people cant grasp the problem is the stupidity of society in thinking everything must be done and requires driving ….
Why would you ban them? By all means tax fossil fuels to the point they become uneconomic but banning them is just silly. There's always going to be an edge case somewhere the government has not considered.
Yeah I mean we have Model T Ford's and other historic cars on the road.
Classic cars are pretty cool, and historically important.
One days our kids and grandkids will be excited to see an old petrol car on the road.
Taxing them more is OK, if you think it's needed (it already looks like it won't be, even if petrol prices never rise again, as long as they can build enough EVs to catch up with demand).
But banning is 100% pointless.
I find it kinda funny, my 12 year old son likes when he sees old VH Commodores, Coronas, Geminis, etc… on the road. I suppose if I think about it that is the same as me seeing an EH Holden when I was a kid.
There will always be a demand for retro /vintage cars to be shown off.
What a stupid idea, banning of use of ICE is extremely bad for the environment;
1) dumpling of millions of cars befoe end of useful life? In general cars are design to last 20+ years, and ICE related components of them gets recycled.
2) additional fosil fuel that need for production for replacement of those banned cars
3) economic downfall, not everyone got spaire 40k in their bank account
And let's not even start on the damage caused by lithium mining and battery disposal.
battery disposal
recycling is achievable and for lithium batteries the percentage achievable for recycling is quite high, but like most things, industry chooses least cost/least burdensome options, and if that means stacking it up in a warehouse rathe than recycling it, well.. thats what happens.
Doesnt mean that has to be the end result though.
Fair enough. I'm sure there's lots of things that could be done better. :)
I'm sure there's lots of things that could be done better.
Pretty decent summary of the world today 😂
Can you name a single program or manufacturer taking back lithium batteries when they are retired ?
Can you show a single link from say tesla where they say they take back the batteries ?
Elon says a lot of bullshit, but even he doesnt say that anybody is recycling EV batteries…
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779
Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less."
@CowFrogHorse: As I said but like most things, industry chooses least cost/least burdensome options
So perhaps there needs to be more pressure put on governments to legislate battery recycling requirements by ev car manufacturers.
The problem isnt that they can't be recycled, the problem is we just kick cans down the road, rather than having any future thinking about what is a better solution than 'do nothing'
Welcome back btw ..
@SBOB: Actually the problem is the cost to recycle EV car and similar batteries is MORE than actually manufacturing from scratch.
The construction form of a EV battery is done in such a way that also makes it extremely dangerous and costly to separate the materials.
As time passes, gasses and other breadown of the components happens, this also makes any attempt to handle the battery or separate it, dangerous and thats basically why nobody recycles and thats just the start.
Why does everyone bring up lithium mining and battery disposal every time EVs are mentioned.
Are you as concerned about the damage caused by oil drilling and fuel tank disposal? Because that's the equivalent on ICE cars.
Is it though?
And how much fossil fuels are used in extracting lithium?
Is it though?
When I said equivalent I was meaning in respect to them being comparable activities: the extraction of the resource and the disposal of the resouce storage object - I was not saying they were equivalent in terms of their impacts (I haven't looked into it enough myself to make a call on that).
I was making the comment as, as I state, almost every time EVs are brought up someone brings up the environmental impact of the lithium mining or battery disposal; and whilst I understand that considering environmental impact is both important and in vogue, where is everyone decrying the environmental impact when ICE cars are brought up?
Part of the issue, in my opinion, is both the vogue-ness of environmental concerns as well as the unknowns: we know a lot about the life cycle of ICE cars, and their environmental impacts; not so much on EVs. I'd certainly be interested in a full life-cycle report on environmental impacts of EVs compared to ICVs (from an unbiased source).
And how much fossil fuels are used in extracting lithium?
Unsure - never been to or involved with the process. I would however expect lithium mining to be a comparable process to any other mineral: mining equipment, trucks, etc.
How much fossil fuels are used in extracting oil?
Yes it's weird people obsess over lithium mining as thought it's a 'gotcha' argument. Battery tech is extremely fast moving and there's some really cool stuff in the pipeline (pardon the pun) including stuff being developed in Australia like graphene aluminium-ion (which can also charge 70x faster). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B6icvUBNzE
@ronafios: So what happens to the trillions of tonnes of Lithium and the other toxic components from todays batteries when they are worthless tomorrow ?
These components are forever chemicals, they dont just disappear like a banana peel gets eatten by worms and gives life too tomorrows plants, they remain for thousands if not longer year poisoning everything in the area.
The people who cheer on destroying animal habitats etc for mining act like they need a fainting couch about the small number of birds killed by wind turbines (less than are killed by regular tall buildings).
And they magically don't care again about the animals killed by air pollution or climate change.
Lithium doesnt grow on trees, it comes from mines.
Do you inow why car batteries cost thousands ?
Its not pure profit, most of that cost goes into paying for OIL to run the big machines at those mines etc.
@CowFrogHorse: Yes it does come from mines, much like most other ores.
I disagree that most of the cost of lithium is to cover the cost of fuelling the machines. Fuel would be a substantial operating cost, for sure, but there's a pretty hefty capital cost which needs to be recovered - land, equipment, site establishment, etc. Also depending on the mining method, a proportion of the machines will be electric. There's already a shift to electric mining vehicles, which will see fuel being an even smaller portion of those operating costs.
By mining that lithium, we're better able to reduce fuel usage not just for everyday people (EV cars) but also in these industrial processes.
My issue is every time EVs come up, you get some people up in arms about lithium mining like it's some new process that's devastating to the environment. To my knowledge, and based on comments in this thread, it's no more devastating than mining any other ore - coal, copper, iron, gold, etc. So, why is lithium the pariah of ores?
With all the land we have we could become the world’s dumping ground for ICE cars.
Think that's what happened in the Mad Max timeline…
Good start, lets also ban EV cars, because guess what they require crazy amounts of OIL as well..
Every single mine runs on OIL.
Go ask Tesla to give you the amount of OIL required to mine and manufacture the batteries for a single car. Now you know why EV car batteries are expensive, thats because a majority of that cost is buying the OIL to run those mines and factories.
Its the same reason why GOLD production goes down when OIL goes up, and why mines speed up when OIL goes down.
No one's accusing OP of being a genius here, that's for sure.
Used vehicles too? How would that work without a buy back or vehicle swap scheme?
Clearly there will be a brief amnesty period when you can voluntarily surrender your ICE vehicle. After that, draconian penalties and a highly funded compliance and enforcement team will be roaming the suburbs looking for evidence of those that continue to harbour these instruments of death.
Mandate that everyone must use public transport one day a week
Replace high car usage vehicles over 20k with hybrid or ev
Phase out two stroke lawn movers
I drive 110kms to work, please advise the public transport that will be implemented to cover these situations and costs to the taxpayer thereof.
You are an idiot if you drive 110 km to work, and thats part of the problem.
A system that allows and encourages this is fundamentally broken.
@CowFrogHorse: Am I now? I think I've got you covered. Other factors may come into play when choosing employment.
This is great if you live in the city where i totally understand 97% of Aussies do.
We have NO viable public transport out here in the regional area.
We have acres of lawn to mow and maintain, electric mowers don't come close to doing the job (like an EV for regional distances).
Otherwise your suggestions are workable for people in the city with actual choice and options.
Blanket rules don't work for everyone.
Yep - let's just continue banning everything.
/s
Throws ban hammer at you
I’d rather just keep buying used ICE cars till I die if they stop production of them all.
In ten years we will be at best hybrids.
2025 obviously not doable. There are not enough electric cars available to purchase. Banning fossil fuel vehicles by 2025 would crash the economy. 2030 probably not doable either considering the manufacturing challenges, but possibly doable in best-case scenario if the state and local governments work at lightning speed to massively improve public transport options to make up for the shortfall in electric car availability.
We already are crashing the economy with interest rate rises might as well do it for carbon
I would say we are resetting the economy. The world has relied on cheap money for too damn long and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Sadly I wouldn’t be surprised if rates go up and then come down to 0.1% in a few years time.
The viability of petrol / diesel vehicles is directly tied to the availability, reliability, economic feasibility and support of electric (or other future technologies)
Right now - Electric vehicles neither have the availability, on going support or economics for the entire car driving population to switch over.
Switzerland are considering stopping electric car vehicle charging due to concerns over electricity usage…. So they want you to buy an EV, then they can say sorry you can't travel…. I'm sticking with ICE as long as I can
You haven't drunk the coolaid. You are not going to drop $80k on a car then another $13k to get 13kwh of solar panels then another $20k to get 30kwh of batteries to charge you car?
Or the alternative is to check the weather, pray for sunny days and sit at home all day to let it trickle charge.
What a load of rubbish! They merely made it a joke that people of Zug may should stop buying Tesla's once they have one of each of the 5 models! Plenty of power there, they are updating their dams and solar. With around 150 electricity suppliers they have very affordable power.
Italy is switching fast to avoid further city pollution. They have zero nuclear power. France has always plenty of nuclear power to sell in winter when many heat-pumps are on.
They should be banned just after trolling
Unfortunately haven't got enough negs for this sort of post.
Seeking confirmation bias is strong in this one.
For those who choose 'Never' - do you accept the relevant science of the health effects of airborne carcinogens/pollutants from vehicle exhaust? Do you accept the science of anthropogenic global warming?
The carbon footprint from a single cruise ship is more than 12,000 cars.
Let's not forget the carbon footprint of creating all those magical electric cars as well as the requirements to generate the electricity.
Electric cars are not some saviour for global warming dude, where do you think the batteries come from? Where do you think the electricity comes from?
By what year, should all fossil fuel passenger vehicles be banned from use on Australian public roads?
I guess the first question we should be asking is why should we ban them at all? As per my points above, electric cars are not some zero emission product that solves all our problems, so why ban ICE cars? Because electric cars are sexy?
The greatest con on Earth is big industries making the individual think that global warming is your fault because you don't recycle, because you drive a petrol car and because you eat meat.
A recent survey of trees showed 101% were in favor of banning books.*
(unprinted to save trees).
Thats bogus because a few small number of tree species are used to make books, most trees wood is simply not practical in making books.
Banned from use is very vague and going to be hard to poll.
A better poll would be - When Should All New Fossil Fuel Passenger Vehicles Be Banned from Sale in Australia
Same as you - Doesn't include freight trucks, mining vehicles or trains - I would suggest 2030.
Yeah agree. Both used and new is a bit harder to gauge.
But new, definitely 2030.
Do you accept that the planet is greener than it’s ever been before?
Food crop growth is at its highest it’s been in history?
Human life expectancy at its highest in history?
Human population highest and consistently growing?
Which part of global warming is bad again?
Human life expectancy has already peaked and is falling.
Grain crops have reached the highest prices in history pushing many in the third world into starvation.
Population growth is not a goal when the population is getting sicker and is already consuming resources more rapidly than they can be replenished.
The best case scenario (i.e. cutting carbon emissions in half) puts us at +0.5 C on average by 2040.
Soil microbes will die rendering previously fertile cropland worthless.
Many reptiles and sea life will become extinct.
Billionaires are buying bunkers in cold climates waiting for the inevitable collapse, meanwhile you post such garbage.
Do you accept that you are living in a bubble? Enjoy your delusion while it lasts
Wrong
Price isn’t the same as supply.
Then why do you want to “save the planet” ? Long term illnesses and general sicknesses are are all time lows. Albeit advancements in science being the main reason for this.
If Australia for eg. Cut emission to 0 tomorrow. It would basically have ZERO effect on the planets climate.
Over the past decade so many new species have been found and some species thought to be extinct have re-emerged
Stop watching YouTube conspiracy videos.
"Data strongly suggest that it [maximum longevity] has already been attained and that this happened in the 1990s."
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/10/our-life-span-could-h…
Go troll somewhere else, you have no idea what you are talking about.
@greatlamp: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/life-expecta…
In Australia it’s even higher :)
If I remember correctly there was a thriving electric vehicle society at the rturn of the last century (and they didn't use lithium batteries either) but it was scuttled by the usual culprits. The same culprits who now want to become carbon trillionaires though their latest scam.
I think there was a doco out a few years back called 'Who killed the electric car'. Might be worth a look if this stuff is important to you.
If I remember correctly there was a thriving electric vehicle society at the rturn of the last century
How… how old are you?!
About 150.
What's their latest scam?
Look up 'who wants to be a carbon trillionaire' and find out. :)
In the same way horse and buggy aren't banned, there doesn't necessarily need to be a ban applied via legislation for changes to occur
Making alternatives more attractive, manufacturers will go where demand is, availability and pricing of energy sources.
All these are things which will make transport technology transitions more realistic than trying to put a line in the sand hard deadline
Cant wait till electric cars get banned
At the rate they're spontaneously combusting they might ban themselves. :)
Is this the Green party trying to workshop their policies?
Setting a hard date and praying there is enough supply of technology to deliver is bad policy. Logically:
I was going to make a long, ranting comment, but I saw who the OP was and just lost my will to live…
They should never fully ban dino juice power vehicles, what they should do it make them less attractive and make alternative/cleaner powered vehicle more attractive. There are just some things that EV's cant do that we will still need legacy fossil fuels to power…
And that is related how?
FMD.
1920 the Model T could do 800km per tank & 0-100 in 5 seconds
Top speed of 42 mph (68 km/h) and fuel consumption of 11-18L/100 km so 800km range is dubious. Pulling info out of your ass…
When government subsidises me to buy 50%+ share in EV/FC car then. (Which will not happen most likely)
Government will need to bear consequences of so many people having trouble of changing vehicles spending so many $$, and the rage in poor people's mind too. (Just like how energy crisis is going now).
A better option is going to be putting a mandatory environmental check (like every year or so, that checks how much your car pollutes, and yes this is clearly not happening in australia, may be once during buy/sale of car but afterwards not really and so many cars infront of me, just start spitting that junky smell, (especially those diesel Toyotas)
@Clear: Not sure without doing research, I was just looking at the 7 day trend @rentonc linked. The energy market is a high driver for generators and is pretty regulated. So I'd guess it's a balance between dam level movement and stability of the energy market. But TAS couldn't survive on just renewables if it suddenly isolated itself from the rest of the grid.