When To Desex My Male Puppy

Nucleus Acumbens on 31/10/2022 - 14:10

I have a five month old male Miniature Fox Terrier. He will be an Assistance Dog so he has to be desexed.

Here's where it gets tricky.

In my breeder's contract it says he is to be desexed at 6 months.

The vet said to desex him at 6 months.

I dutifully booked in his Desexing at 6 months, 1 week (November 21).

Now the organisation that has taken on the training for Charlie to become an Assistance Dog said to delay Desexing for as long as possible before PAT because early Desexing leads to osteotherosis.

So who is right?

Pets Animal Desexing

Comments

  • oscargamer on 31/10/2022 - 14:16
    +13

    Vet. But ask them about the osteo thing…

  • Nucleus Acumbens on 31/10/2022 - 14:27
    -2

    Yes, that's the obvious answer but surely if the vet knew about this they would advise me accordingly?

    I also have Healthy Pets Plus through Greencross vets so free consults, so I'm thinking of going there for a second opinion.

    I just thought the good folk of OzB may have heard of this.

    • oscargamer on 31/10/2022 - 20:34
      +5

      If it's the obvious answer, then why the f did you ask dear?

      Maybe you should wait until your assistance dog is older and wiser, so you can ask them?

    • SydStrand on 01/11/2022 - 00:12
      +1

      Conventional wisdom these days is: 6 months for everything excepting certain breeds prone to orthopaedic diseases like elbow or hip dysplasia, or giant breeds. Mini foxies are small, hardy dogs so will reach adult size around 6 months. Shelters desex a LOT earlier (think <8 weeks), and generally don't run into problems.

  • MrHyde on 31/10/2022 - 14:34

    Some information here - https://myvetanimalhospital.com.au/when-should-i-get-my-dog-…

  • [Deactivated] on 31/10/2022 - 14:36
    +5

    There is lots of research to suggest to wait until 18months for larger breeds (possibly less for smaller breeds like yours) as the hormones are required for proper growth.

    But you have already signed a contract to desex by 6m.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6863800/
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8226247/

  • j1nk0r on 31/10/2022 - 14:43
    +4

    I read about that before I got my dog so I asked the breeder and was told anywhere from 6 months is fine. I asked the vet and was told the same. The dog breed facebook group I joined had nearly everyone say, including other breeders, no sooner than 12 months. So I tried to hold out for 12 months to be safe, but the dog started marking in the house at 9 months so I got him done.

    I think the mass of information on the internet has a lot of people saying stuff without an actual medical basis and it spreads like chinese whispers everywhere, but if you’re worried about it you’ve got nothing to lose by holding off whether there’s a medical basis or not.

  • Iwantthebestprice on 31/10/2022 - 14:59

    6 months seems a bit young, but maybe for small breeds that normal. My dog is a medium breed, 30kg and is almost 8 months old and vet told me to not have him desexed until he is at least 12 months old to allow proper growth of all his joints.

    • Quantumcat on 31/10/2022 - 21:30

      Yeah it could depend on the breed, many larger breeds are disposed to hip displasia and maybe waiting longer to desex reduces the chances of them developing it

      • Woody982 on 01/11/2022 - 08:33

        Correct, definitely a benefit in large breeds. General rule is to wait 18 months to 2 years before desex to allow proper growth before changing hormones

  • BewareOfThe Dog on 31/10/2022 - 15:02
    +2

    I think some Councils required you to have the dog desexed prior to 6 months, otherwise they will charge more for the Pet Registration (This might be different for Assistance Dogs?)

  • parsimonious one on 31/10/2022 - 16:05
    +3

    Out of curiosity, how is the “breeders contract” possibly enforceable?

    • HelpMeiCantSee on 01/11/2022 - 08:20
      +1

      It’s not, just another attempt at protecting the racket

    • Nucleus Acumbens on 03/11/2022 - 13:29

      I have to forward them the proof of Desexing. I suppose if I don't ever desex the pup they could pursue me for breach of contract but I doubt they would pursue me if I was just "a bit late".

      I am not failing to desex the pup so I can breed him. I completely intend to desex him, I am just questioning if I need to delay it or not for the pup's long term health.

      The Desexing contract clause from the breeder is possibly common as the same clause was in the contract for my daughter's Swedish Velhund which she got recently.

      • parsimonious one on 04/11/2022 - 10:14

        Couldnt you just say you gave the dog to your partner or child, who has no contract with the breeder?

        Does then breeder have any of your personal details? How would they find you to chase you up?

  • Tee Rex Arms on 31/10/2022 - 16:23

    6 months

  • Kangal on 31/10/2022 - 20:58

    I've always thought it was 2 Years, so that they grow in to their Adult phase :\

    • Quantumcat on 31/10/2022 - 21:28

      2 years is too long, they could impregnate another dog long before then. They also might get aggressive, as well as mark the house.

  • miwahni on 31/10/2022 - 23:30

    I have a miniature Dachshund and vet advised to wait until he was at least 12 months old so that he had the male hormones to assist with development, lowering the risk of IVDD down the track. Obviously that won't be an issue with a mini Foxy but he would still benefit from the growth hormones. The six-month mark is usually so that they don't develop overt sexual behaviour, but your dog won't be harmed by waiting.
    Re breeder's contract - just drop the breeder a line letting him / her know what you've just told us, and that you still plan to desex. Or say nothing until / unless breeder requests.

  • Mr BoMBAStiG on 01/11/2022 - 07:28

    Delay it as long as possible. The testosterone that their balls produce will help with muscle, joint and bone development. Their are papers published on this.

    Testosterone amplifies behaviour, it doesn't change it, so if you have a nice dog, he will just be nicer.

    Vets say get it sooner as the operation is easier. People say get it sooner as they here about aggressive dogs being more aggressive with testes.

  • jizmo on 01/11/2022 - 08:05
    -4

    Desexing leads to osteotherosis.

    So who is right?

    You think the Vet is going to care? It's a win win for them they'll get paid on the present job and future proof it with the osteoporosis.

  • HelpMeiCantSee on 01/11/2022 - 08:19

    I waited until I couldn’t tolerate the humping everything anymore. Was about 12 months for my pup (he’s 16 now!)

    My suggestion is wait as long as you can until behaviours start manifesting that are intolerable, then chop chop, but no sooner than 6 months.

  • Woody982 on 01/11/2022 - 08:25
    +1

    Honestly, with when to desex you cant really trust the vets. They will always tell you to desex within 6 months, it is literally just a business to them. (And yes, to reduce unwanted puppies and kittens, but desexing at 8 weeks or even less is just so wrong imo)

    For example, GSD's and Rottweiler's is a terrible idea to desex at 6 months, as they are a large breed and early desexing has been shown to lead to a higher chance of hip dysplasia etc. Generally with them its actually recommended to wait for 2 years atleast, so they have developed without a huge change in hormones.

    Now, i hear stories all the time of people going to vets for checkups and general vaccinations when they get a new pup of the aforementioned breeds and the vets nearly always tell them they should be de sexing at or before 6 months. Now the breeders will tell you about 2 years and im going to trust someone whos been working with the breed for over 20 years…

    As you've said your breeders contract states 6 months. So assuming they are a good reputable breeder who actually cares about their pups, then you should heed their recommendation and I'd suggest it would be fine in that case at 6 months

  • Rahonui on 01/11/2022 - 14:57

    The breeder purely said 6 months so as to not compete with their business, and the vets would say 6 months so as to avoid any potential unwanted litters of pups. As far as I'm concerned, they both have an agenda they are pushing here. I would leave it until 18 months - 2 years until your pup has reached maturity.

    • SydStrand on 01/11/2022 - 22:22
      +1

      As far as I'm concerned, they both have an agenda they are pushing here.

      What dumb, contrarian logic is this? The research is there. Delaying desexing for no medical benefit not only chances unwanted puppies, it's also a riskier, longer, and more expensive surgery and anaesthetic. Small breeds can reach skeletal maturity at 6 months. Their growth plates have literally closed. So where is this '2 year' theory from?

  • Sensiekatie on 01/11/2022 - 15:45

    We've always done it before 7 months. That is when the male behaviours start to form (particularly marking their territory and aggression in some breeds). We had a pair we hoped to breed and he was not desexed until he was about 8. Everywhere we took him, he would mark his territory. I found that very embarrassing - especially in the vet waiting room or the pet shop.

    I don't agree with doing them very young as the hormones are important for growth. We have a cat who was desexed before we got him from the breeder. His growth has been stunted and apparently that is what the research is showing as long term complications for male cats. I would expect the same for dogs - but you are well past that now. Best advice is the vet.

    Foxies are extremely protective and they can be pretty.persistant and actually stop people entering your property. Nipping people around the ankles can be a good deterrent to entry. So you don't really want to end up with full blown aggressiveness with this territorial behaviour.

  • Nucleus Acumbens on 03/11/2022 - 13:52

    Thank you so much for the time and consideration that you all spent in replying to my post/question.

    I have since had advice from the head trainer at the Assistance Dog Training to get Charlie desexed around the 6 months, so his opinion varies from the other trainer/owner of the organisation.

    The head trainer said their parts were "softer" at six months and the surgery wasn't as traumatic and easier to recover from.

    Perhaps her opinion is based on large dog breeds as she has two Golden Retrievers.

    I'm not sure what to do now.

    I am a member of Green Cross Vets Healthy Pets Plus, so I will make an appointment with them, ask their opinion and their reasons for that opinion.

    I will also ask our regular vet "why 6 months" and discuss the reasons given for waiting longer.

    Cost for registering or the operation itself doesn't matter, I just want to do what is in the best interest of the pup as I hope to have a happy and healthy dog for a long time.

    It just confuses me that there can be such varied opinions and the naive part of me hopes that the vet does what is best for the dog and that the breeder wouldn't request anything harmful iykwim.

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