"by" a Certain Date Meaning, What's Your Interpretation?

hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 16:11
Last edited 05/07/2022 - 16:12

Hey guys,

Was speaking with a client and I had to clarify with them exactly what they mean by 'by'.

Client: "Can I please have the item by 12th July"
Me: "Sure, but to make sure, do you want the item on or before the 12th of July or do you want the item before 12th July?"
Client: "On or before the 12th of July is fine"
Me: "Sure!"

The client then continued to explain to me what he meant and said: "by means either on or before the date I said"
I replied: "Sorry, but some people may have different interpretations, that's why I asked and I need to make sure"

The reason I clarified is that I had different interpretations in the past regarding when people use the word 'by' a certain date and I always clarify it.

Some people may not include the 12th July and want it before the 12th and will still say: "Can I please have the item by 12th July" but others may say the same thing and include 12th July.

I am interested, what is your interpretation when someone says "Can I please have the item by 12th July"?

Poll Options

  • 217
    Inclusive of the day mentioned and any day before the day mentioned
  • 15
    Exclusive of the day mentioned, it means any time before the date mentioned
General Discussion

Comments

  • Benoffie on 05/07/2022 - 16:14
    +15

    By the date mentioned, by COB, unless otherwise stated.

    • subsbligh on 06/07/2022 - 09:43
      • midnight on the date stated, unless COB is specified.

      COB would be convention though.

  • SF3 on 05/07/2022 - 16:14
    +51

    By is <=

    Before is <

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 05/07/2022 - 16:14

    if the address is attended just get it out before 12 would be even more ideal. save having to deal with a whinging customer.

  • apsilon on 05/07/2022 - 16:16
    +3

    By X means before X, not on it IMO. Now if they were to say by COB on X then that would include X up to typically 5pm.

    • GG57 on 05/07/2022 - 16:18

      "…typically 5pm…" becomes a problem if in different time-zones, or if the business(es) are open for extended hours.

      • apsilon on 05/07/2022 - 19:47

        I said typically because most people only deal with people in their own time zones. If your client is in a different one and specifies COB it's fairly safe to assume they mean COB for their time zone.

    • CheapandUsed on 05/07/2022 - 17:30
      +5

      I have started saying "by your COB on X date" because too many pedants kept asking what COB meant.

      This way I don't have to care if Noddy Nolife works until 11pm every night, I'll have it ready for the morning when I need it.

  • GG57 on 05/07/2022 - 16:17
    +2

    The statement is not well defined. It should include a specific time on that date, or "…before 12th July…".

  • bobbified on 05/07/2022 - 16:19
    +3

    "by" usually means "on or before".

  • Crow K on 05/07/2022 - 16:20
    +1

    By means before ("By the time I get back from the shops, I want the floor vaccuumed". You're in a load of trouble if you wait until Mum gets back from the shops to pick up the Hoover.)

    People have taken it to mean 'including' as well however, so it's good to ask for clarity.

    It's the problem with a series of events/instances leading "up to" something, do you include the something itself?
    * Counting from 1 up to 20, yes, you count 20 as well.
    * Listing of major 20th century events up to the 2nd World War, no, that doesn't include the 2nd World War as well.

    • JimmyF on 05/07/2022 - 16:52

      By means before ("By the time I get back from the shops, I want the floor vaccuumed". You're in a load of trouble if you wait until Mum gets back from the shops to pick up the Hoover.)

      Maybe you should be saying this instead

      "Before I get back from the shops, I want the floor vaccuumed".

    • havebeerbelywillsumo on 05/07/2022 - 18:57

      To me this "by" means the job should be finished or at worst ultra close to being finished - yes a little bit of wiggle time is allowable ( just started is totally unacceptable). A business shuts its doors at a fixed time so there it is "by the time you normally close" ie no wiggle time as the business is no longer accessible.

      • Crow K on 05/07/2022 - 19:26
        +1

        The confusion is usually because specific instances (when Mum gets home from the shops) are obviously a single instance in time, but days (Tuesday) last for, well, a day which has lots of instances of time in it.

        "By Tuesday" is then interpreted as either "by the time Tuesday starts" or "by the time Tuesday ends".

        People have come to use the latter, as though "by" means 'includes the event referred to as well'.
        e.g. If you need to get your passport by the time you turn 13, you can wait until you're 13 and apply. (???)

  • Keplaffintech on 05/07/2022 - 16:24
    +3

    Whilst it's a well established pattern in business that 'by' includes the day, I think it's perfectly fine to clarify as there's always someone who does things differently and you don't want them to learn that the hard way.

  • MS Paint on 05/07/2022 - 16:42
    -2

    If I was the client, and I had to clarify this, I'd be looking for another supplier.

    • hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 17:53
      +4

      IMO, in any type of clarification is good clarification. This means that both parties are on the same page and understand each other.

      If one is offended because the other person may not know what they mean, then that's their problem. One can't assume everyone knows everything especially when no one knows previous experiences may lead up to that question.

      Also, the client could have mean any date before the mention date and if the supplier assumed to deliver it on the date mentioned the client would have been unhappy.

      While this poll shows majority is inclusive of the date, there's still a minority of exclusive.

      Your comment, I could assume you could be the minority. Who knows.

      Conclusion, communication and clarification is they key, I rather have someone clarify on what I mean than assume and the deliverables may be wrong.

      At the end of the day, a smooth trade is the goal, if the client is offended and feels the need to go to another supplier because they asked clarity, so be it.

      • cookie2 on 05/07/2022 - 20:38
        -1

        Not about being offended but too much clarification, where they already feel that they've been clear, may make them concerned about your confidence to complete the task or about your ability to comprehend the task. Then that creats trust issues. This may be more of a concern if you're not a native English speaker, which I'm thinking you're not. You may find it useful to reiterate or confirm, rather than questioning for more clarification. Eg. "Great, confirming I'll have it out to you at the latest of cob 12th July". Then if they're meaning something else they'll advise they want it another time. But in the situation you've raised, it's safe to assume that 99% of people want it at the latest of eod 12th July.

        • hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 20:56
          +1

          How was it too much clarification? I asked one question for a specific answer and I understood him when he clarified it to me, if someone is going to look for another supplier based on a question to clarify a statement and/or question then that's on the client, not the supplier. I am trying to close all possible errors in the future, whether the clients thinks I'm a dumbass, so be it, but it's not going to hinder my ability to deliver what they want without any problems.

          If the client had to repeat his answer multiple times in different terminologies then it creates distrust.

          Non-native English speaker or not, everyone can ask for clarity, so I don't know why non-native or native has anything to do with this thread, I obviously understood the client the first time BUT I needed clarity on what HE meant because I know there are people out there that may mean X and it's actually Y. A good example is my reply to Adz81 below about the "next day" thread I made which has higher statistics than this one.

          Given the poll where it's at now, 5.1% stated excluded while 94.9% stated inclusive, I believe it's never safe to assume and I am sure you know what they say about people who assume.

          • apsilon on 05/07/2022 - 20:59

            @hasher22: TBH, I'm one of the "exclusive" votes but I wouldn't have asked for clarification in this case. If they said they wanted it by the 12th then I'd make sure they had it no later than the 11th. No need to clarify and everyone is happy. If you're clarifying because it's going to be close getting it done in time then you need to work that out rather than risk over promising and not delivering on time.

            • hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 21:06

              @apsilon: But that's the thing, there's no over-promising or not delivering on time at risk here. It's pretty much knowing that we're on the same page with dates, the product will be delivered to the customer on or before the date mentioned thus I have a bit more time to create the product for the customer and I can attend to my other jobs.

              Let's take you for example as an 'exclusive' voter, if you said to me you want the item by the 12th of July and I said yup cool cool, and I deliver the product on the 12th of July but you expected the item on 11th July…… what would do, feel or act towards that person and/or company's process and behaviour?

              • apsilon on 05/07/2022 - 21:14

                @hasher22: That's why I said you shouldn't need to clarify. Never deliver on time when you can deliver early, even if it's only a day. You should always have been targeting the 11th as the last day for delivery.

                • hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 21:20

                  @apsilon: Not everyone can deliver early or should have the mindset to deliver early if it's by a date. By all means, I agree with you if the person can deliver early, do it. If there is a spare day to finish up a client's work to make it polished or a buffer day to make sure there are no errors or problems then that 1-day buffer is a godsend.

                  All I am saying is that if both parties are on the same page, both people are happy.

                  But with you as an exclusive voter, I can only imagine when someone delivers your goods on the last day when you assumed earlier, this creates alot of problems to you and the supplier because you both have different views on what 'by date' means.

                  • apsilon on 05/07/2022 - 21:31
                    +2

                    @hasher22: I actually aim to deliver a week early usually. IMO you're cutting things way too close if a day is going to make a major difference. All it takes is something unforeseen and you'll miss your deadline. Do that for a new client or on a important project and it's unlikely you'll see any more work from them in the future.

                    • SF3 on 05/07/2022 - 21:47
                      +1

                      @apsilon: I think it depends on the job/role, you and OP may have different SLAs or expectations in a supplier and client relationship.

                      What I would have added to clarify with a client is,

                      Me: "Sure, but to make sure, do you want the item on or before the 12th of July or do you want the item before 12th July?"

                      I would provide additional information to narrow the time, e.g. by 5pm on 12 July, if OP isn’t in the same time zone, then it needs to be clear which time zone for the said time.

                      Who knows the client may want it by 8am!

                      Edit: OP might still be a graphics designer, rather than just handing over the work on 12 Jul, your client gets a preview (you decide how many times to review or allow refinement ) and they get whatever is done by a time set on 12 Jul.

                      • apsilon on 06/07/2022 - 08:57
                        +1

                        @SF3: Sure but as I said above, if you take the exclusive view you can't go wrong. The client either gets it the day they expected or a day early and no clarification was required.

          • cookie2 on 06/07/2022 - 22:03

            @hasher22: You don't have to agree. Not sure why you're being argumentative about my opinion, which has been given in response to a post and poll that you have created. Native language has been mentioned by me because it may have something to do with your need to clarify or also with the communication concern that your request for clarification may raise to the other person. And at 95% I think you're are safe to assume, especially since it had already been communicated previously. But hey, take my advice, see it as judgement or just disagree. You get to decide that.

            • hasher22 on 07/07/2022 - 01:30

              @cookie2: Mate, native or not, native English speakers are not immune in asking for clarification on something. Whether it's this, a task, a word, an action….. It doesn't matter.

              Also it was not "already been communicated previously". Where in my post state he clarified it before I asked to clarify it? Or implies a second time he had to explain it to me?

              He took it to his own accord to mansplain it to me AFTER I asked for clarity.

              Also, I didn't know 95% was inclusive of the day, cause from MY experience I know some people exclude the day. This poll proves it, it may be a small 5% but it does happen.

              That's like someone saying "the meeting is pushed forward 2 hours, see you then". One can ASSUME that the meeting is going to be earlier that the original time not later. There is a poll or thread out there asking people's views on what time they think pushing a meeting forward or backwards mean. Now you can say… Oh but 80% knows it's earlier than the start time…. Yes but 20% thinks it's later… So thats when you ask for clarity…. Is the meeting at 10am or 2pm? (If the original meeting was at noon)

              Again, I don't assume, I like to clarify things if I can. My work background and life experience has lead future outcomes to be less stressful and clients, reps or whoever are thankful people like me are thorough to minimise and prevent future problems.

              There is no shame to ask for clarity or for someone to explain X, y or z.

              What happens if he's part of the 5%? Asking one small question makes both parties on the same page and pretty much guarantees a smooth trade.

              • cookie2 on 07/07/2022 - 07:27

                @hasher22: I think what you meant was 'explain' not 'mansplain'. I see now, you have a chip. Ofcourse being a native English speaker or not doesn't dictate whether or not you'll need clarification, I'm trying to provide you with possible reasons where the other side may be concerned about your trying to confirm further even though they had already communicated their date requirement. But you seem to think they didn't. They said to you "on or before the 12th July is fine". They literally stated their requirement. Uf you don't see that, you don't see that. I get it, it doesn't make a difference to your work but people use their judgement to guide them on decisions.

                • hasher22 on 07/07/2022 - 12:06

                  @cookie2: The client said that after I gave him the 2 optionsnfor clarification.

                  He also mansplained (yes that is the correct term) cause I said "The client then continued to explain to me what he meant and said: "by means either on or before the date I said"".

                  He further explained what he mean even though I said sure. That's mansplaining which is totally different from explaining, imo.

                  If the other side is concerned I need clarification that's their problem.

                  You're on the 95% of the voters and totally fine, but I'm on BOTH, you see my position?

                  I gave you a question which you didn't answer. I asked you "What happens if he's part of the 5%?"

                  I also gave you a quote common misunderstanding with pushing forward or back meetings and how people may interpret that as either earlier or later.

                  Again, I should NOT assume, that's my point. I don't care if 95% of people think it's inclusive, there's still a 5%, chance.

                  Also you implied that I knew that 95% is inclusive of the date. I didn't, because from experience I know some people have the date excluded, hence my question to him.

                  It's only when I made this poll after the conversation the statistics were revealed.

                  Other things that may be misinterpreted, someone could ask… "I need the car on the first day of the week". You tell me if Sunday or Monday is the first day of the week? There are alot of factors that people may say either from society norms, religion, business and/or country. To me Sunday is the first day cause I was brought up thinking that but I know from a business perspective it's Monday but I would still like clarification if they mean Sunday or Monday. There are also calendars and settings in phones that allow you to set Sunday or Monday is the first day of the week.

                  There is nothing wrong asking for clarification

  • JimmyF on 05/07/2022 - 16:49
    +1

    The reason I clarified is that I had different interpretations in the past regarding when people use the word 'by' a certain date and I always clarify it.

    Easy to solve in the future . If you ever feel the need to ask this question again, just deliver/complete it by COB the day before aka 11th July in your case.

    No one will ever complain if it is early and you won't have to have this convo with clients ever again.

    In my books, I'm with SF3 above.

    by means any day before and up to including the date listed.

  • Adz81 on 05/07/2022 - 17:42
    +2

    If someone asked for this clarification I'd immediately regret assigning them the task.

  • Adz81 on 05/07/2022 - 17:53
    +1

    Do you intentionally try to confuse things?

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/643650

    • hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 18:21

      I do understand I posted that before I posted this and yes I was aware someone will dig up my history, always one does. I was waiting for someone to link it and here you are.

      No, I do not intentionally try to confuse things, it wasn't even a post to make things confusing but more so getting general consensus on terms that the public collectively thinks.

      Also if you regret assigning the task because that person asked for clarification, that's fair enough, that's your feelings, but you approached them for the task based on whatever exposure of them that made you assigned the task to them in the first place.

      I am sure there are alot of tasks you have been given that you had to get clarification for, and we can only assume the person you asked may think the same way you did in this thread.

      • Adz81 on 05/07/2022 - 19:30

        I can honestly say that i have not once asked for clarification in a, "I need this by xyz date…"

        • hasher22 on 05/07/2022 - 19:51
          +1

          Sure, but I am sure you have come across some type of miscommunication or phrases or terms with someone who thought X and you thought Y. While these conversations may not be their or your fault based on how someone interprets it, if something goes wrong and it will, one will now know to follow up with a question for clarity.

          No one goes through life having the English terms perfected, while the majority of society thinks X another group of people may think Y and this is where the confusion starts, to minimise confusion, we ask questions to get clarity and understand someone's needs or thinking.

          This thread proves it as there is a minority thinking the said date is excluded. What happens if the client said: "I want the item before the date"? And I thought he can have it on the date if something is delayed? He could be in that minority, hence the question for clarity. We are both happy.

          In the thread you linked about next week…. 28.8% voted current weekday and 71.2% voted for the following weekday, with this data set, we can assume the majority of people will interpret "Next X (day)" the following week but there's still quite a large group of people that will interpret it for the current weekday. Let's go out to the real world and assume the whole world is this 28.8/71.2 percent split, you go to someone on a Monday and ask them you want to watch a movie next Wednesday, you both say YEAH! Now your friend messages you the next day (Tuesday) and ask what time tomorrow (Wednesday) you want to watch the movie but to your surprise, you message back "no I meant, next week Wednesday"….. You both can argue who is right or wrong, but the thing is…. no one is right or wrong as there is a 28.8/71.2 percent split on the interpretation. The thread I made about this provides real data from primary sources that 28.8% think X and 71.2% think Y. To minimise confusion, you ask a question to get clarity on which Wednesday.

  • AsukaST on 05/07/2022 - 18:51
    +1

    The answer is easy.
    You can always find a bottle of milk or a pack of meat on supermarket's shelves where the use by date or best before date is the day you visit.
    So it's inclusive, i.e. before the end of that day.
    That's why you should always include the hourly time when you give a deadline to someone else regarding something importing, such as "by 4pm today".

  • Ocker on 05/07/2022 - 19:01

    "By" is at 24:00 hrs before the date in question.
    At 00:01 hrs of the date is is already the date, and not "by"

  • John Kimble on 05/07/2022 - 19:25
    +2

    I get the same issue with expiration dates. Service NSW sent me an email saying:

    Remember to renew the registration for your <car>. It's due to expire in 2 weeks on 12-07-2022 unless you renew before this.

    Does this include the 12th? Evidently it does, as my comprehensive insurance renewal is more clear, saying:

    Period of insurance:
    From: 13 Jul 2022 (00:01 am AEST)
    To: 13 Jul 2023 (11:59 pm AES T)

    Slightly related, the other day at 6pm, my wife messaged me "come get me in 15?". I replied "OK" so she knew I got her message and would be on my way. She was a 7 minute drive away.

    I read the message as, leave our home at 6:15pm to pick her up at 6:22pm.

    When I got there, my wife asked what took me so long, and a slight disagreement took place on what she meant ensued, as she meant she wanted me to Ieave so that I would arrive at her location at 6:15pm.

    Some clarification would have helped in that situation, but we both thought we understood clearly what each other meant, so didn't think to clarify.

    • Daabido on 05/07/2022 - 20:46
      +1

      I thought you would have learned that lesson by now.

    • ozbargainsam on 05/07/2022 - 23:29
      +1

      Wow. This is about the closest real life, non-ironic example of this old programmer joke:

      Wife says to her programmer husband, "Go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, buy a dozen." Husband returns with 12 loaves of bread.

      Why would anyone asking to be picked up specify when they want you to leave where you are? Did they happen to back calculate how long it would take you to go from wherever you happened to be to where you need to pick them up? That's your job.

      You're getting them in 15. Not leaving to get them in 15.

      Sorry. I've been triggered a tad.

      • SF3 on 05/07/2022 - 23:38

        It could just be John. and he didn’t want to clarify with his wife as it may trigger the disagreement event earlier.🤷‍♂️

  • endotherm on 05/07/2022 - 19:36
    +2

    What about "Next Saturday"? That's a week and a half away, isn't it? Because if it's the one in a couple of days time, it will be "This Saturday".

  • ozbargainsam on 05/07/2022 - 23:15

    Due by tomorrow? Is it: due at 11:59pm tonight, or 5pm today, or CoB tomorrow?

    Who would knowingly specify a target date and mean the day before? What exactly is the cut off time for the day before? Close of business? Okay well then say it's due by date X - 1.

    There's a lot of conventions based on specificity and context. In a business scenario, it's generally before end of the business day for the recipient since they might work on it after hours or first thing in the morning. If it's a uni assignment, and it's submitted by email or online, probably before the date ticks over to a new date.

    Anything else you would be more specific. Like 'I need this delivered before I catch by flight on date X'. Or 'I need this delivered by Tuesday because I'm flying out the next day' (am I flying out Tuesday or Wednesday? Do I want it delivered on Monday so there's a day of buffer?)

    Try it with other durations

    By 2023 = before 2023 (though it's odd phrasing) - could argue either way but context matters
    By next week = before start of business on Monday
    By next month = first business day of the month

    But 'by day' is the widely regarded exception to that rule.

  • StingyBritches on 06/07/2022 - 11:30
    +1

    Hopefully, this thread will end by today.

  • bamzero on 06/07/2022 - 12:19

    I usually take a by date to mean by end of given day.

    There was once where an invoice for one of the kids activities offered an early payment discount if paid by a certain day. This particular time I forgot until after 10pm, but being in WA and the payment system over east I think it was treating it as the next day so didn't apply the discount.

    Anyway, being an OzBargainer I contacted them about it, their response was pay by meant having to pay the day before the given date, however I've paid their invoices previously on the given day (but before 10pm) and got the discount so I still say "by" means end of day of the given date. (They credited me the discount btw :)

  • ozbargainsam on 10/07/2022 - 11:13

    I think we can consider this thread closed: Kevin has spoken (popped up in my feed)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=GdP8Jb51Zzo&t=1m

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