for reference
some schools in NSW already operate on different hours from the standard 9-3,
personnally with 2x primary school aged children i would support a 8am - 2pm or even 730am - 130pm
i'm also one of those people that would like retail hours to extend much like our south east asian neighbours
This.
When I heard about the changes, I was excited because I thought school would start later. Unfortunately not.
Plus.. I could do with more sleep myself! =S
Definitely!
Having worked in schools I'm all for parents actually parenting and school hours being the least of our concerns.
"But for one expert, that raises a question: what is the purpose of school?"
Surely the delivery of education should be the primary focus of any debate about the hours of schooling.
===================
I don't get the reference to 'retail hours'?
I don't get the reference to 'retail hours'?
something i thought would be great than the traditional 9-5
imagine retail being open from 10 to 10
I'm sure if the demand was there to make it financially attractive, allowing for the additional staff overheads and other logistics, the major stores or shopping centres would go for it.
Chadstone Shopping Centre (Melb) does 9am - 9pm for two days/week.
Coles/Woolies are a prime example, they operate extended hours all week as there's sufficient demand.
With the rise of online shopping and the big push given from COVID, there's less reason for retail to operate extended hours. I can see an argument for shifting retail hours (eg: 12 - 8) as that might let shops capture more foot traffic.
I can see an argument for shifting retail hours (eg: 12 - 8)
I don't understand this either. Maybe difficult to get employees to work strange hours? Operating 9 - 5 makes it difficult for anyone who works full time to get something from the shop. Definitely makes it difficult for anyone who works full time to go to a retail store.
@RandomNinja: Those 'extended hours all' are usually fills in with lower-paid-kids-who-do-the-same-job-as-over-21s
imagine retail being open from 10 to 10
Do you work retail?
I bet not…
@pharkurnell: Right?
A lot of places I've worked struggle to keep fully staffed full time employees for retail. Can't imagine having to operate an additional 20hrs in just the week days alone.
It's interesting you say this, but a lot of other countries have retail work 10-10.
Changing school hours would be mess..
Having Colesworth open until midnight in Sydney was incredible. Going back to QLD and having half the shops close all day sunday was like stepping into a time warp.
Agreed, any changes to school hours has to start with how it will improve the quality of education for kids.
Yes and No.
School isn't about Education, or I should say "only". There are other ways to increase a human's Wisdom or Intelligence/IQ than the traditional means. This is just a weird way of me saying "it's complicated, and I don't know the solution". There is probably no single solution that works for everyone. Logically more hours in class = more learning, but we know this is false in-practice.
It's possible to sacrifice a child's (class) education, to make things better and more convenient for the parent and family unit, which in-turn will increase a child's education from outside means (better nutrition, more exercise, better assignment and exam preparations, etc etc). And these can partially, or fully negate the initial compromise… if not surpass it.
External factors definitely play a part. But I think the bigger problem lies internally with teaching quality and resources.
Also, the curriculum and HOW different children learn needs a big overhaul, especially the NAPLAN.
https://lens.monash.edu/@education/2021/05/10/1383196/learni…
Since its introduction in 2008, the increased reliance on NAPLAN results to inform education policy and practice has coincided with a decline in the relative performance of Australia on global league tables. Although this may imply correlation and not necessarily causation, there is evidence that NAPLAN has been counterproductive in its aim to raise achievement (details of which are included in the 2020 federal review of NAPLAN).
Beyond its failings in regard to academic achievement, NAPLAN has also had a series of highly detrimental unintended consequences. A national study of more than 8000 teachers revealed:
narrowing of teaching strategies and of the curriculum
negative impacts on student health and wellbeing
negative impacts on staff morale
negative impacts on school reputation, and capacity to attract and retain students and staff.
@Blitzfx: That's interesting, and not really surprising.
I think if you are a parent, your child will have better education without private schools and expensive tutors… if you instil in them a sense of curiosity, eagerness to learn, and good habit building.
Most kids these days and the past couple decades grew up influenced by TV, Movies, Internet, Video Games, with high-processed foods, lots of carbohydrates and sugar, with a lot of glamourising of questionable personalities. Many kids want to be YouTube Stars and Twitch Streamers, instead of Structural Engineers and Physics Professors.
Those above influences cannot be solved by sending them to private schools and expensive tutors. Sure they might memorise things more, or do lateral-thinking, but they won't do vertical-processing and applying concepts. So give them proper food, proper exercise, healthy habits, and good character traits… they will go further. Also mingling with like-minded parents with like-minded kids will help speed that process.
There are other ways to increase a human's Wisdom or Intelligence/IQ than the traditional means.
Agreed! Question is are there alternate means would both supercede current schooling and be practical for parents, especially those that both work?
While I agree that alternatives to traditional schooling can benefit some kids, it could potentially be detrimental to others. For example, COVID has demonstrated that self-directed learning from home has had mixed results, with some kids thriving and others struggling (particularly those in early primary).
I definitely think it's worth trying to find new models of education, provided they actually improve educational outcomes for the majority of kids.
Logically more hours in class = more learning, but we know this is false in-practice.
Can confirm. I was home schooled (by my mother) for my primary school years, and we covered the equivalent of a regular 9-3 school day, in less than 2 hours, every day for my entire primary years. When I went to high school, I could not believe the amount of wasted time!
It gave me a lot of chances for extra-curricular activities as well that many children wouldn't have had as much time to do, or at least do to the depth I did.
The purpose for schooling is to give our children an education - an education that will assist our country to progress in the modern, technical world
The school day is too short and the emphasis is on sport!
That's wrong:
1) Secondary school hours should be 8.30-4.00p.
2) More emphasis should be on academic education (maths, sciences etc).
We can all name sports (greats?) people, but how many academic (greats) can we name?
Australia imports academics to manage our sciences and commerce - if we want to hold a place in the modern, technical world, that has to change!
Working with your brain is smarter than playing cricket, rugby, tennis (leisure activities).
Wake-up Australia before we get left even further behind.
I agree. Far too much emphasis on sports and competition, particularly where some schools offer extensive scholarships to some students with specific sporting skills.
There does need to be a balance between academic pursuits and a healthy lifestyle, but that should be achievable by the inclusion of exercise (of some nature) as part of a balanced education program, but with more of an emphasis on participation than on competition. Similarly, general 'life skills' should be part of the curriculum.
general 'life skills' should be part of the curriculum
I actually disagree with this part. This is where teachers are being asked to go beyond the scope of their role and distracts from their ability to deliver academic education outcomes.
I agree that 'life skills' are important, but it's not the teacher's responsiblity; it should be the parents'.
@RandomNinja: What I mean by 'life skills' includes things like:
- verbal skills, including public speaking / debating
- non-discrimination in society
- theology (i.e. not any specific religious teachings, but awareness of the different religious beliefs that exist, the basic teachings of each, etc)
- basic finance matters (budgeting, banking, taxation, investing, etc.)
Not everything needs to be 'academic'.
If these types of standards are part of our education system, we would achieve a more harmonious society rather than relying on the transfer of family beliefs etc. Each generation should be an improvement on the next.
@GG57: No disagreement from me on the importance of life skills, everything you listed is solid and far too many kids transitioning to 'adulthood' without having a solid grasp of some of these concepts. I'd add additional things like more career planning, basic home DIY and car maintenance, as well as mental health.
I question whether it should be taught during school hours though. It's certainly convenient to place the responsibility with schools where kids can be easily reached, but for every hour spent on learning life skills, it's an hour less on academic outcomes. While not everything has to be academic, can we afford to let our academic standards slip further?
Personally I would prefer to see life skills/'How to adult' programs offered outside of school hours. There was a pilot program run by a South Australian council a couple years back that seemed promising, but I can't seem to find what the final verdict was.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-21/should-young-australi…
Guess it depends on your own experience and views. Respect yours.
Sports teaches many important life schools.
Fitness and health are extremely important, how people get that, alot of the time is from sport.
I don't think there is enough sport in schools that I have experience with, currently 1 short class per week. Inter school sports that used to happen when I was young dont seem to happen anymore, I remember schools would play in alot of sports against each other.
everyone's opinion could be different really on experience.
8.30-3pm would be only change primary or secondary. no longer day at all for kids
Looking at primary school teachers, I think they have too many responsibilities that are not directly related to educational outcomes.
From a population health perspective, getting kids engaged with sport is important to combat adult obesity. Similarly, addressing mental health challenges, such as learning or behavioural disorders, is important to prevent worse or worsening conditions in future. Teachers are also dealing with increasing expectations from parents, an increased admin load and with the start of this term, deploy and monitor COVID testing!
All of this takes time and it unfortunately comes at the expense of academic education. For me, the solution isn't necessarily keeping kids in school longer as much as freeing up teachers to focus on doing what they're meant to do - teach!
Imagine trying to get kids to school at 7.30 if you have a 1 hour commute!
Also
In France, students are in school for eight hours from 8am some days, but most get Wednesday afternoon off.
They didn't mention that in France in high school you also often have Saturday morning classes
And parents often get wine at sports day!
if it takes 1hr to get your kids to school then they're going to the wrong school
In Switzerland we had Wednesday afternoons off, and from memory didn't have any Saturday schooling (not even the odd one here and there). That was just over 15 years ago I reckon it was.
It might have changed in France by now too, my experience is from 17 years ago
Google tells me:
France: typically runs from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., with a half day on Saturday
Spain: in most primary schools in Spain is from 09:00-12:00 and 15:00-17:00. There is a two-and-a-half to three-hour break in the middle of the day for lunch and a siesta
Italy: For most primary and lower secondary schools, classes tend to be from 8:00 and 13:00, Monday through Saturday.
Even though I'm mostly WFH, make their hours 10am-4pm so that I don't have to hear groups of schoolkids on public transport.
I wouldn't survive school if it started at 7:30am. I had a 3 hour commute and I am confident there are students today with similar commute times.
No child (or adult for that matter) should have a 3 hour commute, though, that sounds super awful/unhealthy… how does that even happen? Were there no schools in your local area?
I had a 3 hour commute in year 11 & 12 too, as I was in a country town and the high school there wasn't very good
the high school there wasn't very good
In what way?
Was the physics teacher crap?
Even some kids going to their nearest school have a 2 hour bus ride. Welcome to regional NSW. I'm sure other regional areas were the same.
Definitely. I was doing research in schools in rural isolated Qld. There was a 5 year old that has the worst commute. She had such a long day just to get to her nearest school.
2 hours is a long commute, but that largely sounds like a choice.
1) lots of small towns have schools
2) No one is forcing anyone to live in regional Australia
3) surely you can’t expect the gov to build schools in isolated areas to accommodate a handful of families/ students?
Richmond to city is a 90 minute commute each way (making it a 3hr daily commute) and its a suburb of Sydney.
Urban sprawl and lack of infrastructure planning and decentralising Sydney.
We’ve heard talk over the decades of making sydney have 3 centres but with covid recovery all they ever talk about is getting people back to the Sydney cbd. The rest (including regional) is an irrelevance to them.
Yeah. But if you live in Richmond you don’t have to go to school in the city.
Heaps and heaps of schools betweeen Richmond and the city
or adult
Teachers may not get a choice.
But general commute times are terrible in NSW. Liverpool to Sydney CBD is almost an hour.
Imagine what time the before-hours sports training programs would need to start if classes started at 7:30am.
It would probably all shift to after school since kids will have more time in the arvo
You raise an interesting point about after school programs though. If schools all have different start/finish times, might be tricky to figure out an optimal schedule
I can't see sports like rowing moving away from an early morning start. Same with swimming, and most of those already do afternoon training as well.
If school hours did start at 7:30 or 8am, the sport may not be able to keep the early morning starts if parents aren't willing to take their kids at an even earlier hour!
If the goal of morning training is to maximise hours of training, how much difference does it make if the morning hours are replaced in the afternoon? I suppose I can see a benefit for the athlete breaking up the hours and recover a bit while at school.
If morning training is crucial to the sport, shifting school hours earlier might end up worse for these athletes in that they continue training in the morning and arrive at school later >_<
@RandomNinja: i've never entirely understood why swimming insists on early morning training, but for sports like rowing its because early morning generally has no wind but the afternoons can be blown out and potentially dangerous (as in, boats are swamped and sink)
then again, how many rowers actually are there
@dtc: +1 I’m with you, maybe some can enlighten us as to why you need to swim in an indoor pool at the crack of dawn if you are doing swimming training.
As you said rowing makes sense, 5am to laps in a pool, wtf?
This is the forums.
Less sleep is a bargain.
If the motivation to change school hours is to accommodate working parents, maybe the focus should be on finding ways to give working parents greater flexibility?
For office workers, this seems relatively easy to provide and I'm sure many already do. Not sure how changing school hours benefits these folks.
For workers that have to be onsite, I'm not sure how shifting school hours helps. While they might be able to do drop offs in the morning and avoid before school care, they'd need to use more after school care if they're working a standard 8 hour day.
Don’t have kids but this would be pretty cool. Drop kids off to start school at like 7:15 am, leave work at 2pm to pick them up from school then WFH the rest of the day. Could even help with congestion on the roads.
i'm also one of those people that would like retail hours to extend much like our south east asian neighbours
Sydney is an absolute joke when it comes to retail hours. I cannot state how much I loathe the lack of trading hours. In Melbourne we have 2 x late night trading during the week till 9pm Thursday and Friday, and then places like Chadstone are open till 9pm on Saturday and 6pm or 7pm on Sunday.
If you need to get something for the weekend in Sydney you have to either buy it on Thursday or go out on Saturday. It’s so weird considering Sydney is the largest economy in the country!
Who’s in charge of retail trading hours in Sydney and have they even thought about revising retail hours in the past decade?
Sydney is an absolute joke when it comes to retail hours. I cannot state how much I loathe the lack of trading hours
Wait until you go to Adelaide.
Yeah but that’s Adelaide lol, it’s expected things would close at 5pm (or earlier) every day.
I need to write to whoever is in charge of retail hours in Sydney.
I think it is a David Jones.
@GG57: Not DJs, as someone who worked there until 9 on Saturdays when I first started working there. If you told them they could open 24/7, they'd be there with bells on. i.e. very pro extended trading hours. Used to open 9:30-7 weekdays in the city stores when most places only traded until 5:30 or 6
Adelaide here. Supermarkets close at 9pm on weekdays. They closed at 5pm in the 1990s.
Wait till you go to QLD.
To be fair, Adelaide is flat out keeping the electricity on for eight hours a day, let alone enabling "extended trading hours".
Mate, we're running 100% renewables in SA - ain't no power blackouts here.
@Benoffie: It was more of a tongue in cheek comment. SA has been in the news many times with retail blackouts, let alone that statewide blackout.
Who wants to live in SA anyway?
@Mysterious Laptop: Ha. Maybe years ago. Not now. So many batteries here, only blackout chance is infrastructure failing.
Wait. Like last time.
SA had a state wide ~6 hour blackout due to downed powerlines in September 2016, yet people are still banging on about blackouts. Move on already. Everyone else has.
Wait until you go to Perth. We only recently got unrestricted Sunday trading.
Woolies used to run from 7am - Midnight except Sundays where they close at 10pm. Then they changed it to midnight on Thursday late night shopping. And now it's 7:30am - 10 pm daily.
I thought recent thinking was that high school should start later as many teenagers don't get enough sleep and get their best sleep in the morning
I would have supported this at junior school as with 2 parents working only being able to drop kids at school at 8.45 was very difficult
Now at high school with them getting themselves there, I have to wake them up every morning already. Having to wake them earlier would just them more tired.
And I know they could just go to bed earlier, but not so simple when they have sport and other things at night
I hope in all states they offer earlier preschool drop offs supervised areas for those that can't cope with the staggered times between primary and secondary schools starts .
NGL i wouldn't be surprised if it goes the other way.
You start to bring the working day back to an 8.30-3 time table to match school hours and increase the number of holidays so parents can actually take all summer off with their kids.
You start to bring the working day back to an 8.30-3 time table to match school hours
But it depends on the school….
Highschool is generally 8.30 to 3pm, but Primary school is normally 9 to 3.30pm. So parents can drop off to one, and make it to the other.
Maybe more schools should use school buses? Could help to ease congestion on the roads.
What school buses? You mean public transport? Hmmmm yeah nah. Its hard enough getting a kid to school on time let alone to meet some bus that is plus or minus 10 mins!
@JimmyF: Nah, I think parents would be concerned about safety. I mean like ones that belong to the school or private charter buses. Funding would be an issue, wondering if parents would be willing to chip in for it? I know if I was a parent I’d probably pay for the convenience tbh.
I know it’s probably hard for some people to get to school on time but people will just need to become more disciplined.
Funding would be an issue, wondering if parents would be willing to chip in for it? I know if I was a parent I’d probably pay for the convenience tbh.
Depends on the cost I guess…. My kids school has over 700 students. That's a LOT of buses and drivers running around to pick up kids every day and drop them home. So the cost would be huge!
Also don't forget most people are 'zoned' into their local school by their location, so they are not travelling an hour across city to get to school and back. Unless they're paying big dollars and if so, then they'll be ok :)
The buses running around still doesn't really resolve the issue of the parents if you can't WFH. What do you do with the kidlets from 1pm till they get home and you're still at work?
personnally with 2x primary school aged children i would support a 8am - 2pm or even 730am - 130pm
So what hours do you work then?
i work 8:30 - 5, 5 days my partner works the same 3 days a week.
with a 30 minute commute each way
So what will you do with the kids between 1.30-2pm till you're back from work at 5.30pm?
after school care like most other families that need to work.
and much like they are doing now.
every family is unique and you cant use one set of rules to measure everyone…
i don't criticise anyone else's family, i'm just thinking that that arrangement might work for me. i might change jobs next year and this arrangement might not be suitable.
the key take away is what is best for the kids learning environment, can the schools operate with flexibility?, can work places be more empathetic on working parents?
it's a cultural change, societal change and mind set change.. no one said it was easy whether or not we change school hours, work hours or retail hours. that's the beauty of having a discussion and seeing and maybe understanding other people's point of view
after school care like most other families that need to work.
and much like they are doing now.
So what's the point of changing the hours then if the kids still end up in before/after school care?
i'm just thinking that that arrangement might work for me.
But that now means teachers/school staff have to start early, so might not work for them. Plus other people who work in the afternoon, now have issues. What works for one, doesn't work for others.
it's a cultural change, societal change and mind set change.. no one said it was easy whether or not we change school hours, work hours or retail hours. that's the beauty of having a discussion and seeing and maybe understanding other people's point of view
Maybe the cultural/society change isn't putting kids in school/care from 7am till 6pm needed to allow parents to work, but the fact that we move away from having to have both parents working 40 hours a week.
So what's the point of changing the hours then if the kids still end up in before/after school care?
i don't think any change is ever going to get rid of before and after school care, not sure why you would think so
But that now means teachers/school staff have to start early, so might not work for them. Plus other people who work in the afternoon, now have issues. What works for one, doesn't work for others
exactly.. may work for some and not others.. just like the situation is now. that's what the discussion is about
Maybe the cultural/society change isn't putting kids in school/care from 7am till 6pm needed to allow parents to work, but the fact that we move away from having to have both parents working 40 hours a week.
agree, that's what i was saying
i don't think any change is ever going to get rid of before and after school care, not sure why you would think so
So why bother changing the school hours then?
just like the situation is now. that's what the discussion is about
But what works for you, doesn't work for others. Seems a little self centered to want all schools to move hours to be around your work schedule.
I don't disagree, school hours don't work for people who work. The issue is more around needing two parents to work full time to make ends meat, not the school hours.
But what works for you, doesn't work for others. Seems a little self centered to want all schools to move hours to be around your work schedule
that's exactly what i'm saying…what works for me may not work for others if the hours change… similarly at the moment may work for some and not for others. but having a view to change, amend, be more flexible whether that be school hours or work hours is a benefit for the kids.
in fact like you said school hours may not change, but how they school might. having a discussion and recognising that there may be something we can do to change the status Quo to make things better might be a good thing. one might say… progressive.
having a discussion and recognising that there may be something we can do to change the status Quo to make things better might be a good thing. one might say… progressive.
But it is really progressive when you have just said move the starting hours 2 hours forward? It hasn't solve any issues, and honestly seems to be creating more issues with having to get young kids up early and to school.
Now parents need to be up extra early, to get the kids to school earlier, then off to work and still getting home at 6pm.
after school care like most other families that need to work.
That's an incredibly long day for a young child. They need time to rest and relax. You'll end up with sad, angry, misbehaving children. Plus they'll need to go to bed pretty much as soon as they get home in order to get up in time (10-11 hours sleep, if they need to be up at 5.30-6 they would need to go to bed by 6.30 or so), no time for dinner or bath!
@Quantumcat: that is the life unfortunately for many families who do not have a choice.
lots of different types of families with different scenarios, there will obviously be not one solution to fit all.
lucky for us before and after school care is only a sometimes thing, and we make sure that we spend every free moment we have in our busy lives to nurture.
@Archi: It would be rare for a family to have to drop kids off at 7am and not pick them up until 6pm. If they don't start school until 8.30 or 9 that's a lot more flexibility and shorter days for the kids even if they can't be picked up until 6
It would be rare for a family to have to drop kids off at 7am and not pick them up until 6pm. If they don't start school until 8.30 or 9 that's a lot more flexibility and shorter days for the kids even if they can't be picked up until 6
It's generally primary school kids who go into care, once kids enter high school, they are more independent. getting themselves off to school and back again in a lot of cases.
I know you live in ACT and everything is only 10 mins away and no traffic. But in the bigger cities, it's not uncommon for kids to be dropped off before 8am, to allow the parents an hour travel to work, then work 8 hours, getting back around 5.30-6pm to collect the kids.
I agree it's a MEGA long day for the kids and leaves very little time at home to spend with the kids. Basically, eat, bath then bed for younger ones!
@Archi: It would be rare for a family to have to drop kids off at 7am and not pick them up until 6pm
at the moment probably…
pre-covid it is more common than you think.
again… many different families across Australia, with different living conditions, different jobs, different environments. just because we don't see certain things doesn't mean they don't exist
personally I support 7.30am to 6pm
in fact I support them sleeping at school lolz
while I wouldn't mind a change in times u have to think about the teachers too
7.30am start means gates open 7am
means teachers might need to be at school at 630 even. wake up 5.30? to get readyguess they do finish early then but it's a balance
Maybe teachers can live at the school for free. That way they don’t have to pay for housing.
Kids getting more sleep is better