Recently my old bones starting to hurt at the neck. Was wondering what our fellow ozber favourite go to when this happens? Share some first hand experience?
Chiropractor or Physiotherapist, Who Do You Believe in?
Comments
From what I recall, physiotherapists are the only ones that practise based on EVIDENCE.
I was waking up still tired after 5 hours from a sore back. Figured it was my bed but went on a holiday and was having the same experience in a completely different bed.
I thought a chiro might be worth a shot while I was still
on holiday.The night after I saw him the problem was gone. 8 hours blissful sleep.
People often comment the improvements are temporary. For me it lasted 18 months, so yeah temporary but I’m happy to pay for another round after that long.
Power of the mind is a strong thing. Some interesting studies on the placebo effect.
In the last decade of practice I have personally seen 3 patients with strokes from chiro. All 3 were young and healthy, had neck pain and went for an "adjustment"… which ended in stroke because the "adjustment" tore a blood vessel in the neck. There is no way I would go near chiropractors.
Strokes are terrible and life changing. Can definitely be worse though
https://people.com/health/playboy-model-katie-may-died-after…Can definitely be worse though
thats the type of stroke you get from 'adjustment'
i tried both for an issue i have had for 1.5 years with my knee and lower back.
They were both meh.
I then went to an osteotherapy and it was much better the treatments, and they worked. Highly recommend.
Defending my comment above!!!
Osteopathic physicians follow much of the same path as a traditional medical doctor, including pre-med classes, four years of medical school and 3-7 years of residency) but rather than becoming a Doctor of Medicine, or M.D., they become Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.). Like an M.D., an osteopath can prescribe medicine and referrals for surgical procedures as they see fit.
In America. Not Australia. We don't have D.O's as a recognised medical professional here and they cannot prescribe or refer for surgery.
Osteopathy student here. As @MissG said this is blatantly incorrect. DO / Doctors of Osteopathy do not call themselves Osteopaths. The DO program is essentially medicine with OMT (osteo manipulative technique) sprinkled in from what I gather and it's an American thing.
In Australia:
We cover musculoskeletal / visceral / general anatomy in a decent amount of detail.
Physiology / Biology to a lesser extent and if you didn't care about your grades you can pass while knowing very, very little. To be fair, this isn't all that relevant considering the scope of practice Osteopaths will adopt.
They go pretty hard on the manual therapy / treatment side / assessment side which I think is good, still waiting to see exactly how far we go into exercise prescription and rehab but looking at the course outline it doesn't seem like it will be very detailed unfortunately. (I'm in my third year next year so time will tell.).
I've seen enough vertebral artery dissections and resultant strokes from neck manipulations by chiros to know what I'd choose. But if you must see a chiro just don't let them near your neck! No neck cracking! Bad!
Meh. Saw a chriro, felt great for literally one day, post all the cracking then neck pain returned. (She was also very defensive about chiros claiming they're like doc's). Yeah right. Would never go back.
Seen a bunch of osteos and would say that's a bit of quackery too. Spent $$ on persistent knee pain I've had since my teens and they just keep suggesting exercises/rehab that does very little. Had MRI's that have shown nothing too. Pain also gets worse during winter. (Like old people who complain seasonally). lol.
Oh well, just have to monitor it and no running. Just sticking with my bike for exercise now"Seen a bunch of osteos and would say that's a bit of quackery too."
That quackery comes straight from uni. It's a bit better now but you still see some bullshit in there.
Alot of our teachers still practice cranial osteo / craniosacral therapy for gods sake.
agree with everyone; see your doctor. For me I saw an Osteo and he really helped but I also started taking care of myself better; healthy lifestyle and eating so my shoulder pains went away as I grew my shoulder and back muscles at the gym etc to better support my body.
Yes so the Osteo had nothing to do with it.
How about find the right practitioner that is fit for you? I'm a soon to be chiro graduate and yes, I do agree there are some whack jobs out there, but that can be true of every profession. I'm quite sick of my future profession being dragged down and attacked unfairly (sometimes fairly), but the new age of graduates are definitely trying to redefine the public perception of what a chiro is and what they can do (yes there is a long way to go as is evident in just reading this thread).
It would be unfair to say all doctors are terrible just because some doctors only prescribe medication and expect your problem to sort itself out. It would be unfair to say all physios are bad based on ones that only stick a warm towel on you and do massage. There are some amazing chiropractors out there that do aim to find the root problem, that do aim to not only resolve what is causing you pain but also the contributing factors. Not everything we do is an adjustment, yes that is one component but even then, it isn't always indicated. We aim to educate, prescribe appropriate exercise, give appropriate advice. We aim to do what is right by anyone that comes to us for help and that includes referral where appropriate.
Why did you pursue a career in chiro?
I've always had a keen interest in health, sport and helping people. I didn't really know how to approach this interest until I met the local chiropractor at my gym for treatment. After getting treatment from him and talking to him about what chiropractic is, what it can be, I decided to transition from a teaching degree (which I hated) to study chiropractic. He didn't put me on a treatment program of adjusting my spine once a week for 4 weeks, he didn't sell me on some magic cure. He educated me, treated me with hands on therapy (and told me this is all temporary, that you need to put in the work to really see long term improvement), he just provided the framework for how to approach my goal. So from those interactions, and eventually research into what chiropractic is and the study process itself, I fell in love with how I believe I can help people.
Through my study, I did have that struggle of, "oh, maybe I should've studied to be a physio." But I eventually realised, whether I'm a chiro or physio, I am in a position to help people. So being a chiropractor is one avenue that I can use to help people and that excites me. Hope that answers your question.
he just provided the framework for how to approach my goal
What was that exactly? What did he tell you to do outside of his chiro sessions that would fix you?
@serpserpserp: Modified my activities of daily living, rehab exercises, general advice on what to do or avoid.
rehab exercises.
Interesting. Do they suggest physio like rehab exercises? Sounds like to be all these bits are the advice a physio would give
@serpserpserp: What makes an exercise a "physio" exercise? Is it not just exercise that can be prescribed by anyone? Whether its a chiro, gp, exercise physiologist or physio. Is it not just an exercise? What matters is how its prescribed, the volume and load, the progression, the appropriateness of the exercise for the person.
What unis even offer chiro these days?
@thanatos350: Macquarie University is the big one in Sydney, not too sure of other unis that offer it.
I taught high school Biology for 37 years. I had quite a few very bright students go on to complete physiotherapy degrees. Not once, in 37 years, did I see someone in the top third of the cohort go on to study Chiropractics. I did know of students in the lower two thirds who did, though.
I'm not a chiro, but I do work out of a chiro clinic.
I'll say this, there are good and bad chiropractors. Adjustments help relieve pain rapidly, improve range of motion etc….but it is all temporary.
This is no different to say, dry needling, massage, pnf / met stretching, articulation, joint mobilisation etc.
If you had a chiro who helped you manage the pain AND put you through rehabilitative exercise and didn't just want to adjust you regularly it would be an effective method of treatment imo. Unfortunately it seems the minority of chiropractors are in this category from what I've heard.
If you found a chiro who claimed to work on an evidence based paradigm, that would probably be your best bet.
One thing I will say on the chiro / physio debate is that musculoskeletal rehabilitation is just a part of physiotherapy and from talking with physiotherapists it seems that the quality of your training here can vary significantly.
TLDR: Some physios, and some chiros are shit.
you could have osteopenia or issues with worn discs in your neck - I would see a specialist first before you get anyone to start cranking your neck
So the question remains
Why would Chiropractors be legal if there is no scientific basis?
Does the government allow this to knowingly harm its population?
the government allows smoking, drinking and gambling
whats your point?
Why would Chiropractors be legal if there is no scientific basis?
Because people want freedom. There is no scientific basis to many herbal remedies, fortune tellers, clairvoyants, many vitamin tablets, even religion. Should all of those be made illegal if there's no scientific basis?
Does the government allow this to knowingly harm its population?
No. They allow it to give its citizens freedom to choose, just like how smoking, drinking, and gambling is allowed as MrThing mentioned.
Do you prefer a government that tightly controls what its citizens can do? Perhaps even block "harmful" websites, and maybe even introduce some sort of social credit system?
I do agree , it should be banned. Stealing money from fools
I'll add one more dimension here to the mix. Exercise physiologist, you don't get better if you don't do the self rehab exercises regularly and consistently!
EPs really don't get enough recognition.
Yeah. They're the best when it comes to developing a regimen to regaining daily functionality and maybe even going beyond that.
I work with both PT and EP and I totally agree. I've seen the best progress when people are treated specifically by the PT (a joint, disc issue) followed by EP to treat regions and whole body mechanics.
EP has a huge branding problem. Physiotherapists aren't the only people who do "physical therapy".
Personal training is increasingly well regarded despite the fact that an EP would likely be better for most people. Obviously EP isn't about getting buff or thin, but I speak more out of regard for overall physical wellbeing (joint mobility, strength, stability, etc).
EDIT: the guys who disengaged with PT and EP in favour of chiro never got better.
This poll seems to be tracking about the same ratio as Vax Vs non-Vax… Which is pretty interesting.
Exercise physiologist spotted and cured the problem for me that several physios, GPs and orthopods could not.
[exercise physiologist vs physiotherapist] (https://www.google.com/search?q=exercise+physiologist+vs+phy…)It's a no-brainer. One is science, one is horseshit.
I believe they both exist
Anecdotal but there's a reason why I will never see a chiro.
An acquaintance of mine was having lower back troubles. Went to a chiro and they said that it was just spinal pressure and if the chiro cracked it over a few sessions, their back would be fine in a couple of weeks.
The family decided to go to a physio for a second opinion. The physio gave the family a referral for an MRI (or other diagnostic imaging, can't remember) and found that there was some kind of growth on the acquaintance's spinal cord that needed surgical intervention to remedy.
If they had gone through with the chiro treatment, the odds were overwhelming that my acquaintance would end up a paraplegic, possibly quadriplegic.
Never considered ever going to a chiro after I was told this story.
Did the chiro actually try to crack their back? I'm pretty sure they would have found the growth once they started the manipulations.
I don't believe that they did, and you're probably right in that they would have found it before anything dangerous happened. Personally, I just didn't like that they seemed to want to jump into treatment straight away with minimal diagnosis.
This may have been one rogue chiro that has been a little overzealous, but it has turned me off of them. The few ruin it for the majority, I suppose.
Good chiro and good physio are both good in their own right.
Chiros the snap quacks.
Physio is a waste of time, only ask you to do some stupid exercise which doesn't even work. For neck problem, first do a x ray, and then check if the disc are worn. Chiro can help you manage the pain. Physio won't help much. If you want a good chiro, there is one at docklands chiropractic
Physio is a waste of time, only ask you to do some stupid exercise which doesn't even work.
That is true, because people usually don't bother doing those exercises or stretches at the frequency they're meant to be doing them. ;)
Found the PT who writes HEPs knowing they are the only one who will ever read the plan.
Who do I believe in? Well, chiros are witch doctors, so I guess you have to have some "faith" in them. Physio's are science based, so probably best to go with them.
None… I took a trip to NYC and contacted the Sorcerer's Supreme, got the Good Ole' Strange to fix me up. Good as new.
Why dont the people go to a doctor/gp first and let them refer to whoever needed? Are hospitals that packed that they cannot see a specialist?
some people (usually low education) are terrified of death, and afraid of doctors so avoid going to them for annual checkups and ignore low level symptoms
until that becomes impossible and they show up at emergency, where the doctors say 'sorry it's too late - if you had only seen a doctor 5 years ago this could have been prevented'
The real answer (for some issues such as back pain caused by poor posture etc) is a physio who’s got a sub speciality in muscular skeletal manipulation. Aka can do “back cracking”. Bonus points for also offering dry needling.
That way you’re getting a proper evidence backed assessment, muscular manipulation / massage, minor adjustments of spine, and an exercise and care plan.
Santa Clause
This is not a debate or opinion,
Chiropractor’s are a scam
This is generally the consensus among allied health, though I've heard that there are a few good ones out there. From memory, a bunch of unis have dropped their chiro programs.
A lot of this stuff comes down to placebo and I'd link studies if I could be bothered. Physio, real surgery and sham surgery (cut the patient open and sew them back up) all have equivalent outcomes.
None of this even matters because chances are OP will go to the physio expecting to be fixed, ignore prescribed exercises (the actual fixing part) and then complain that progress is too slow prior to disengaging entirely.
I suggest you Google "ring dinger". It's a chiro adjustment, and while it isn't NSFW it is still kind of gross to watch.
Whatever works best! Try both and see what offers the best treatment/relief.
All I know is my doctor went to a highly regarded chiropractor for a sore back at the recommendation of friends and came out with permanent Tinitus.
Don't mess around with your body. Go to somebody actually medically licensed.
That is really sad
Physiotherapists actually help you heal. Chiropractors are more for pain management.
If you're just in pain but there's nothing to worry about I guess you could go to a chiro if it really affects you. Otherwise you should always see a physio.
Haven't you watched the YouTube videos where chiropractors crack babies necks and backs? Surely this is safe and science based lol
Chiro will give immediate short term relief. You gotta research who is good though. Mine basically does a physio session and the back adjustments. X-rays and all that jazz of course.
Physio will give immediate short term pain but also give you a set of exercises to strengthen the areas in and around where you have an issue.
OP provided no medical or injury history
so I'll toss in something that worked for me in a tangential fashion that cured my dizziness/vertigo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olgEtOKAGaI - I just do the first 4 exercises, like one set of 4 x 4 movements, once a day - usually while sitting on the toilet or standing in the shower - but it seems to have fixed my dizziness - I have felt no random dizziness since I started doing these - they also could pass as neck stretch exercises as I hear odd clicks many days that feels like a release
my experience of chiropractors - practitioners of BS - last guy used a pistol-spring gun to 'move slightly' vertebrae - I googled his US-type accreditation and found a whole field of BS with quasi-medical big-word-salad documents purporting to be research, but with my medical background I recognised it as total fakery.
physio - the last one I went to was a hot baby so I just loved her hands on my body - felt good immediately - but fix my health problem ? Not so much. At $100 a visit I prefer to spend my money elsewhere.
'old bones' is not a medical diagnosis - unless you are hinting at arthritis
I'd start with a full investigation of why the problem - then work out which way to go with surgery, treatment, drugs or exercise.
Psychotherapist
Psychohistorian
Psychopractor
depends on who you ask. They both have their biases.
You might consider looking at Osteopathy and to a lesser extent, Myotherapy. An Osteo is somewhere between a physio and a chiro - they'll treat you for relief using massage, dry needling etc, work through recovery plans and exercises for you to self treat and also do some skeletal manipulation.
I don't really properly follow the exercises as much as I have in the past so it's almost turned into a bit of a maintenance thing, but have found I get really good relief for my lower back and my neck/shoulders from treatments. I once had a really stiff shoulder after a boxing workout and was able to get very good relief from that too, so have had a range of things treated. My wife suffered a C5/C6 ruptured disc a few years ago and has been able to get relief and build up confidence in her body again through treatment and exercises by our osteo. I'm sure there are also osteos out there that don't show the same level of care that ours does, but ours has been great.
Check out the wim hof method and cold water exposure for another free and natural alternative.
In my experience, it comes down to the quality of the practitioner.
I played a tonne of sports when I was younger and have been to many physios for various issues. However, as I've grown older I've found an Osteo to be more effective. Having said that, it took me a few bookings with different practitioners to find one who was actually decent at their job.
Osteo's should give you exercises to help with long-term recovery along with treating the symptoms. But, many ignore the exercise in my experience
Specific to your case - Neither.
See your GP first. I would first get a Neck CT scan +/- MRI if you can afford.
Find out what is wrong. Most likely narrowing of the nerve foramen causing nerve impingement with degenerative changes/bony spurs.
Then follow your gp's advice on treatmentHave you been working at home a lot OP? You likely just have a stiff neck from starting at a laptop or an improperly positioned screen.
From an educational standpoint, Chiropractors are people who have been conned into a career offered by questionable educational institutions. The 'profession' itself is a joke, and not supported by actual science, and involves no medical training whatsoever. I would personally never go to a chiropractor, but there is a legitimate counter argument, and it comes down to tactility. Some people are just better at tactile jobs than others, and some people are better at massaging than others, so regardless of education, when it comes to a hands on job, despite having no real education, there will be some chiropractors who are better with their hands than some physios. It's a real pity that the requirements for entry into jobs with medical components such as medicine and physiotherapy are so focused on a number, because while intelligence is certainly required, in a job that requires massage, movement, surgery or interaction between one body and another, some people are just going to be naturally better at it. I'd much rather a surgeon with a 92 ATAR who is very good at performing delicate and skillful surgery, while being empathetic to the patient, than someone who got a 99 ATAR and has almost no hand eye coordination, no delicate touch and no finesse. Likewise it'd be great if some of the more skilled chiropractors (in terms of touch) could gain a proper medical based education and qualify as physiotherapists. As I said, I'd never go to a chiropractor, but I've been to plenty of physios, and some of them were completely useless. I have two herniated disks from weight lifting with poor form in my early 20s. I found that small female physios didn't have the strength to push through my traps and give me any relief, even if they got on top of me and put all their weight down. Strong males did much better, but it really showed me that not everyone is suited to every job, regardless of their qualifications.
THC will do the trick … although side effects include laughter, hunger and paranoia
I know this probably a comment in semi-jest, and there is some evidence regarding potential CBD for chronic pain in multiple sclerosis patients… but I have to say that THC does have very tangible risks. I have personally seen multiple people with THC induced schizophrenia have their lives completely ruined. You don't know if you're a 'susceptible individual' until it's too late.
Additionally, for those who smoke it… you're taking on the same type of cardiovascular, stroke and lung complications as smoking.
Disclaimer: Above is not medical advice. See your doctor for personalised health advice.
Edit: Evidence for CBD in MS patients (instead of THC)
OK BRO
cool story!
Chiro wanted me to visit as frequently as I could afford forever. Told me my issues where from birth and would never get better. The adjustments from the chiro left me very light headed and off balance. I couldn't even walk properly out of the place.
A physio told me I had tight IT bands and a bunch of other tight muscles caused by lack of exercise and poor posture causing some muscle to spasm. Taught me some exercises, sold me spikey ball and a foam roller I could do at home. Also massaged the worst muscle providing some temporary relief.
A GP gave us a bunch of pain medication told me the name of what I had which was basically some muscles in spasm, and told me to YouTube the same exercises from a physio. Told me the worst of my discomfort would be over by the time I got a booking with physio and sent us off to youtube at home.
No doubt there are a few good Chiros out there that believe in what they do, but the couple I have seen just wanted a regular paycheck from me in exchange for adjustments that left us feeling like rubbish. That did nothing to treat the cause of my issues or even symptoms. They told us to that the adjustments would take 24 hours to work, like the gp told me a muscle spasm stops after a while. Chiro was nothing short of a scam taking advantage of me being in pain and telling us there treatment would help when really its just time and trying to get me back in next week.
Osteo and myotherapist
went down the chiro path once.
had a neck crack that made me nauseous and I felt like vomiting. So of course, I drove home and almost killed myself. Did that about 25 years ago, never doing it again. Luckily, no lasting physical damage that cannot be explained by other injuries later on in life lol
Unrelated: there's an amusing prank you can play on your friends with an empty water bottle tucked under your arm and a compliant pet if you want to pass yourself off as a (quack) 'pet chiropractor'. Penn and Teller used to do it, it's likely on YouTube.
D. D. Palmer founded chiropractic in the 1890s, after saying he received it from "the other world"; Palmer maintained that the tenets of chiropractic were passed along to him by a doctor who had died 50 years previously.
Straight chiropractors believe that vertebral subluxation leads to interference with an "innate intelligence" exerted via the human nervous system and is a primary underlying risk factor for many diseases.
From Wikipedia.
Read the full article there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic
Obviously depending on what the issue is.
If I screw my back or neck and want to walk out of my appointment fine and feeling great I’ll go to a chiropractor.
If I want it to take multiple appointments and exercises I’d go to a physio.
In response to comments above I’ve never had a chiro try to sell me any product. I’ve never had one try to sell me a treatment plan and they rarely try to book you in for a repeat booking.
All of the chiropractors where I go have degrees and the prefix “doctor” and my chiro is a bloody legend.
I’m sure there’s crap chiros and crap physios though so do your research. And I’m sure there’s ailments that either can help with that the other can’t.