Need Peoples Opinion (Not Advice) on a Fence Issue at My Property

Lgarygaz on 09/09/2021 - 14:34

hi everyone

i purchased a property 2 years ago in sydney (inner west), quite an old semi-detached property which has passed through a few owners hands in the last couple of decades.

about 6 months ago, one of the neighboring properties on our boundary line informed us they were looking to do a decent sized renovation. no one enjoys earth movers and power tools, but it is a part of life and i thanked them for letting us know and the only feedback i gave them was regarding window placement on the second floor and trying to maintain some privacy in our back terrace/yard.

fast forward until recently, was asked verbally if we were okay with the neighbour replacing the fence with some fancy taller one. at the time i verbally agreed and didn't see any issue with this (i understand nsw law regarding splitting costs, however he indicated but did not promise he was willing to pay for the entire thing given the existing fence was in good order). no cost of the fence or details were shared with us and it was all verbal at this stage. for context, i have photos from 20-30 years ago with the exact same fencing between the properties from previous sales.

one of the parts of the build was a wall on the boundary of the property which ran between the property directly behind us and to the neighbour doing the rennos (his boundary extends further than the neighbour behind us, onto one of the sides of our property). this is where the first problem arose, when the builders removed our back fence (which is not a joint boundary with their property) to allow for the new wall between those two properties to be built. it was my opinion after seeing the brickwork later that day that they had built over where the old fence line is - i.e. the old fence could not be erected due to where the new wall lay.

at this point i raised my concerns with the neighbour and asked that they stop work on the boundary of our properties as i was of the opinion they had built on my land and i wanted to get an independent opinion. this was quite a learning curve as i have talked to a lot of people (council, surveyor who did the work on the property when we bought it) and none of them want to get involved. so i have been juggling work and trying to solve this over the last couple weeks.

fast forward to today and i get a text from my neighbour essentially saying the builders were intending to place the new fence and in the process they will be cutting the tiling in our back yard (all tiles no grass) to make room for what they consider the actual property line to be.

i have since managed to get onto a surveyor who is coming out to give an independent opinion, but i was just wondering if anyone had any general advice or thoughts. what would you do in my shoes? do i have to agree to this new fence given nothing is in writing? is the way that they are informing the day before and just building over what (regardless of where the actual line sits) i would have clearly believed to be my land okay?

this has been driving me nuts recently, many thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to reply

Home & Garden

Comments

  • SF3 on 09/09/2021 - 14:40
    +17

    I don't look forward to your future with that neighbour.

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 09/09/2021 - 14:41
    +9

    Hoping surveyor comes back saying they are indeed over the boundaries and you can take them to court or demand repairs/other remedy as your neighbour sounds like an a-hole… and not the other way around. Have seen quite a few horror stories where surveyor comes out and determines the person initiating the complaint is actually over their boundary line and then forced to pay extra to remedy…

    Either way yeah - future with neighbour don’t look too good..

    • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 14:46

      hmm fair enough, i understand these things can go two ways. i don't think things are too frosty between us yet, i just clearly explained to him this fence has been here for decades and i bought the house with that fence line and it was surveyed when i bought it. would i not be reasonable assuming the fence line was correct? there is a lot of other work still being done on his property so it hasn't really stuffed around the builders workflow (from what i understand)

      anyways, just a bit shocked by the blase nature of it all, just builders telling you off the cuff that they will be cutting a part of your tiling away and reducing your property line. ehhhh oh well fingers crossed for the surveyor

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 09/09/2021 - 14:56
        +2

        I deal with tradies, mainly sparkies, but have dealt with builders/developers and while many of them are actually quite alright to deal with even when shite hits the fan, many of them are also a-holes even when things have not hit the fan… all I can say is if it goes south with the contractors/neighbour I'd make it a habit of checking your tyres/driveway for nails on a semi/regular basis :)

        • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 15:10

          haha oh god thanks :(

      • cameldownunder on 09/09/2021 - 16:19
        -3

        I would say ( with no clue about laws in Australia ) that once something is in place for more than 10 years, it becomes "legal" and so your fence, as it was, becomes legal. And if they tradies are too lazy to work the same location: not your problem. Take pictures of what is, what was broken and plate numbers and phone numbers on the utes of the tradies.

        And get a hunting camera, one of those that gets activated by movement.

        • Jimothy Wongingtons on 09/09/2021 - 17:33
          +9

          becomes "legal"

          In summing up. It's the constitution. It's Mabo. It's justice. It's law. It's the vibe.

    • trustnoone on 09/09/2021 - 15:27
      +2

      Hoping surveyor comes back saying they are indeed over the boundaries and you can take them to court or demand repairs/other remedy

      Not a lawyer but to add to this OP, if there's a chance they did cross the boundary, they may also be doing other things that may not be right for the area, such as building too close to the boundary and you may be able to get council involvement on that also (as it may be a council rule), there may also be rules on window locations etc.

  • MITM on 09/09/2021 - 14:54

    Are you intending to live here with your neighbours for years to come and in peace ? I'd want to get this sorted as soon as.
    I would want to get the neighbour to pay for an independent survey of the boundary (which you have already begun).
    You could say you believe the end of your tiles is the boundry until proved otherwise and that a survey is the only reason you would agree to reducing your backyard.
    And since until the renovation, you've had no reason for a survey and you believe there may now be an encroachment on to your property.

    I'd start a conversation with your neighbour begining with… I didn't realase the scope of the project and am withdrawing my verbal agreement.
    I'd prefer all future correspondence in writing for your solicitor to ponder.

    • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 15:10
      +5

      thanks for this, i will tell them to stop immediately pending the surveyor coming out and can go from there

      • Logical on 10/09/2021 - 22:11
        +1

        you can tell them to stop, but they will not. Why would they? Just have your surveyor do their job and identify the boundary line with pegs etc. Then do a string line and you will see for yourself. If they encroached onto your property then they will rectify. And if they haven't then you will need to talk to your conveyancer.

  • slow on 09/09/2021 - 14:57
    +2

    Has the neighbour had a survey done?

    They can build the fence anywhere and the builder will build wherever your neighbour tells them, but if later a survey is done that shows it is on your land the neighbour will have to remediate.

    When I built recently my builder insisted on a survey.

    Will cost around $800 to get a survey done and the surveyor will put in something to mark the line

    • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 15:09
      +1

      he has and the builder is saying they are fine. the problem is they essentially began building over the fence line without telling me and have pointed to the survey as proof that they are in the right. i have no idea how to read these things and i am taking someone who he is paying on their word, which i dont like - hence i am forking out of my own pocket to get an independant opinion.

      i thought properties had to have their boundaries verified before sale so it seems to me either his surveyor is wrong or the surveyors who did our property pre sale were wrong

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 09/09/2021 - 15:30
        +1

        i thought properties had to have their boundaries verified before sale so it seems to me either his surveyor is wrong or the surveyors who did our property pre sale were wrong

        Just because you pay a 'professional' to carry out the survey doesnt mean it's right.
        Our work neighbour said according to the survey they had their guy do (not sure why they had to survey) , their carpark is over the boundary onto our side, but our back fence is over on THEIR side roughly the same amount. It kinda evens out so he doesnt care but thought it was still interesting since we paid good money for a very VERY reputable builder to build our lot.

        • netjock on 09/09/2021 - 17:20
          +2

          Just because you pay a 'professional' to carry out the survey doesnt mean it's right.

          we paid good money for a very VERY reputable builder to build our lot.

          I'd trust the surveyor over your builder. We know how gun ho builders are. Builders reputation is for delivering the house, not for exactness of boundaries.

          But it speak for the wild west nature of the building industry. Everyone doesn't want to have a liability but everyone wants to be there for the feast of fees.

  • Baysew on 09/09/2021 - 14:59
    +6

    Need Peoples Opinion (Not Advice) on a Fence Issue at My Property

    if anyone had any general advice

    I'm sitting on the fence on this one.

    • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 15:06

      heh maybe thats my work life stuff coming through, no personal advice, but here is general advice!

  • Euphemistic on 09/09/2021 - 16:45
    +2

    Get the survey done first. Once you have the boundary marked move froward from there.

    If the fence was not on the boundary but on their side and has been there for a long time you could claim adverse possession or whatever it’s called. This will then force them to build on the existing fence line

    If the fence was on the correct boundary that’s what they are bound to and if they damage anything on your property (incl cutting tiles) they need to repair afterwards. If they continue to want to encroach your land they’ll need to buy it off you.

    If the fence was not on boundary but on your side you they could go adverse possession road but they’ll need to build on the existing fence line or over. You could force them to build back to boundary but probably difficult if the fence was there for a long time.

    • netjock on 09/09/2021 - 17:21
      +1

      Get the survey done first.

      Only another qualified surveyor could refute what your neighbour is doing (even if they got surveying done already).

    • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 17:25

      If the fence was not on the boundary but on their side and has been there for a long time you could claim adverse possession or whatever it’s called. This will then force them to build on the existing fence line

      on this point, i have only lived here for 2 years although i have pictures of the fence line from ~15-20 years ago. does this still apply?

      • BreezyPalms on 10/09/2021 - 07:46

        The boundary is the boundary - confirmed by a surveyor. The fence line is often wrong as whoever builds it doesn’t follow the survey or the neighbours agreed to a slight difference for practi reasons. So in this case if the survey shows the fence is incorrect you are out of luck mate

        • garygaz on 10/09/2021 - 12:58

          yeah fair enough i will defer to whatever the new surveyor says, however the added twist (from a below comment) is that their surveyor may not be registered

  • iNeed2Pee on 09/09/2021 - 16:57
    +2

    Please alert us Gaz on what the surveyor says….otherwise contact me directly and I will piss on their wall.

    • SF3 on 09/09/2021 - 18:06

      Sounds like a Pikies way to resolve disputes!

      • iNeed2Pee on 09/09/2021 - 18:35

        I feel like I am a bitter person after discovering the forum section of this site.

        • SF3 on 09/09/2021 - 18:39

          R U OK?

  • Seraphin7 on 09/09/2021 - 18:03
    +1

    You will have to get a survey done. Can't speak to the costs/process having not been involved, but that is your answer here.

    Between now and then you will have to formally (i.e. speaking and writing) advise your neighbour that no work can continue (i.e. no cutting of your tiles, etc.) until the survey had been conducted.

    That will inform next steps and any other commentary is premature.

    As others have noted, be aware that the outcome of the survey may or may not be favourable to you.

  • Traveller107 on 09/09/2021 - 18:26
    +3

    1. First thing to do is check if their surveyor is registered with the relevant surveyors board in your state. Surprisingly a massive number are not registered and complete cowboys.

    2. Boundary surveys are not too hard to read but if you're having trouble then you could get the surveyor who did the survey to explain it to you over the phone. He can help you spot the boundary and pegs. Or call the surveyor who did your survey and have him run you through it.

    3. Or Get your own new surveyor to do a survey and be present so he could explain things to you. Check registration first.

    Sometimes old fence are just in the wrong place and not on the real boundary. You can't really claim adverse possession as others are suggesting as you haven't been there long enough and haven't been maintaining that land or paying rates etc for it among other things. Let us know how you go. Cheers!

    • garygaz on 09/09/2021 - 20:15

      mate thanks for that. so I just typed all the details from the survey that they sent me into this site:

      https://onegov.nsw.gov.au/PublicRegister/#/publicregister/se…

      The details of the person and firm on the survey do not show in this register.

      • Traveller107 on 09/09/2021 - 20:35
        +4

        Time to call the surveyor board and double check in the morning. If they confirm the same info that the surveyor is not registered then one might consider sending a letter to the neighbour to stop illegal works and provide a new Boundary survey done by a registered surveyor as per law to confirm the boundary if they want to proceed with works or fix everything to how it was before.

        Also installing a camera facing the works and informing the builder its recording all the illegal works and damage might be an option too. This will discourage the builder to take risks and he might give a hard time to his client instead of you.

        Then speak with your previous surveyor regarding where the boundary lies as per the survey he had done. He should not charge for this.

        Call the council and have their inspector to come around and pause the works until this is sorted. Or you'll have to spend some money and get a lawyer to write it up. Cheers!
        Disclaimer- this is not legal advice and not to be relied upon without consulting a professional. It's just an opinion from someone on the internet :P

  • shaybisc on 10/09/2021 - 08:13

    "however he indicated but did not promise he was willing to pay for the entire thing given the existing fence was in good order). no cost of the fence or details were shared with us and it was all verbal at this stage"

    Red flag

    • MrBear on 10/09/2021 - 09:42

      It should be okay because I believe that if one neighbour wants to replace the fence, but that fence is not in disrepair, they need to pay for the whole thing (unless otherwise agreed).

      • garygaz on 10/09/2021 - 12:58

        yeah that was the vibe of the whole convo. the fence was completely fine and in no form of disrepair or otherwise

  • kiitos on 10/09/2021 - 08:42

    A drawing of the situation would help, I can't visualise it properly.

    My understanding is the boundary line is straddled by the fence, so the thickness of the fence had to encroach on either side of the boundary line. Not sure if that applies for walls of residences though.

    • garygaz on 10/09/2021 - 12:57

      i did my best ms paint job to a reply below

  • Waltervp on 10/09/2021 - 09:17
    +1

    Always a pain to have bad relations with a neighbour. My father build a home and erected a small fence in the bushes between us and the neighbour. The neighbour advised us, weeks later, that it was 10cms onto his land… my father just took a deep breath and counted to 1500 and got the contractors to move the 50m fence 10cm even though visually noone would ever notice.

    I would consider how much impact does the fence have on you, will moving it make any real difference? I know it's not right, but lots in this world isn't right. Keeping the neighbours 'on your side' is always important.

    • garygaz on 10/09/2021 - 12:57

      yeah i don't want it to turn ugly. when i had the neigbhour and builder over to show them the issue i restrained myself and just said i think its reasonable that considering you've built over the old fence line without consulting me i am obviously going to ask you to stop and have to have this assessed. trust me i wanted to say a lot more but i just had to bite my tongue. very hard not to lose your marbles over stuff like this when it feels like the builder is treating you like a fool

  • backpaqer on 10/09/2021 - 09:23
    +2

    needs mspaint diagram…possibly bikies too

  • windale on 10/09/2021 - 12:17
    +1

    are you getting a building surveyor (building inpector) or an actual land surveyor? you need a land surveyor to come and peg out the boundaries so you and your neighbour are 100% sure where they are.

    • garygaz on 10/09/2021 - 12:55

      i am getting a registered land surveyor :)

      • dandandan on 10/09/2021 - 22:25

        Get an identification survey, signed by a Registered Surveyor that clearly show setbacks of relevant structures in relation to the boundary, so don't just get the boundary survey. Basically it will show if either sides fence is currently built over the boundary line and how much etc, a boundary survey will not show this

  • OzHunterNSW on 10/09/2021 - 15:33

    Don't know what you seek from us, since you have spoken to many people. If the fence line is incorrect, and your lose some of your property, you haven't lost anything bc it was not your property boundary.

    However, if your actual property extended into the neighbour's property, then you have all the right to have the fence moved to the proper line.

  • windale on 10/09/2021 - 16:52
    +1

    Due to some work I want to carry out in my back yard (we are doing a reno) I decided to have our boundaries pegged out by a surveyor. The home is my old family home that I purchased off of my mother. The retaining wall and fence between us and the neighbours in the back yard area has always been of concern, it was put in in 1978, 5 years after the house was built. The neighbours house was built in the 1980's. Mum & dad (RIP) always had a thought that it was slighly on the neighbours block. Anyway the Survey I had done last week shows that is the case with one end being about 20cm into the neighbours yard and the other end (in the back yard) being fine. There was also concern the neighbours steps next to their shed down the front were on our land, the survey found that to not be the case, they are fine. My plan when I get around to the back yard is to build a new retaining wall and fence on the boundary as it should be, just to save any dramas in the future. My neighbour now is fine but if he sells the new neighbour might not be so accommodating. I can leave the existing wall and fence up if the neighbour wants it on his side or pull it down and he can go halves in the fence part (on top of the wall). My moral is just because an existing boundary fence is there doesn't mean it is in the right place.

  • Hopscotchy on 15/09/2021 - 20:35
    +2

    Any updates OP? What happened when your land surveyor attended?

  • iNeed2Pee on 16/09/2021 - 21:12
    +1

    What was the outcome??

    • Cliche Guevara on 16/09/2021 - 22:09
      +1

      Outcome = another forum topic where the OP ghosts us

      • garygaz on 24/09/2021 - 11:30
        +3

        hiya yeh fair sorry i took a fair while to reply

        just so over the whole thing and get triggered even talking about it lol - but generally it worked out in my favour however the emotional stress and money spent has just left me feeling bitter about the whole experience

        long story short i had my surveyor come out, he measured the true line of the property (which did not align with what their surveyor did) and found that their structure did in fact come over the boundary line (albeit only slightly, by 10mm), not an amount i am going to cause a fuss about. i also pushed the line back for the fence and that means my pavers wont need to be shaved, which is the main thing i wanted from this.

        funnily enough the surveyor pointed out that multiple properties were over the boundary line by between 10-35mm across the entire boundary (multiple properties on the one line of our property), but given the age of the homes here it's not that unusual. he said his personal opinion was that he could not believe they were causing this issue over a few cm of fence line and common practice was to just build on the old fence line to avoid conflict (especially with such small differences).

        guess i'm just amazed by the unabashed attitude of my neighbour who even after i've pointed out i don't wanna cause an issue over the slight encroachment of his wall onto my property (even though i am within my legal rights to do so), the builder (and by proxy him) still were adamant on building the tip of the fence on top of the pavers and then angling back to his grass (we are literally talking cm's here). just can't (profanity) believe some people, you know?

        so yes getting the surveyor helped me remedy the situation somewhat, but the overall situation has left me with a pretty sour taste in my mouth. i can't tell you the amount of phone calls, emails, text messages and door knocks i've had to deal with for this tiny, tiny issue. pretty infuriating

        • Hopscotchy on 24/09/2021 - 21:56
          +1

          Sorry that you've had to deal with such shitty people, and that this has been so draining for you OP. Thanks for coming back to update us!

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