BS car parking infringement notice

DannyC on 09/08/2021 - 18:31
Last edited 11/08/2021 - 10:32

Heya Ozbargain peeps,

So went out last month before lockdowns in VIC for lunch in Abbottsford for some good Viet pho and 25 mins later return to car to my absolute delight, a $91 fine awaited me. I was fuming. The reason? I was apparently parked for more than 2 hours in a zone signed 7am to 6pm (2 hour limit, after 6pm it is a Permit Zone). Apparently my offence occurred from 7am in the darn morning….

So I did what any person would and contact the Internal review team for the City of Yarra. Being a council body I did not have high hopes and I was correct. They told me in their system is registered my car as being in that spot since 7am…. tough luck pay the fine or go to Court…. I call total BS that their system had me registered at 7am as my car was in a secure car port at my apartment, I was still having darn breaky at that time. I arrived in that spot at 12:01pm and it was 12:26pm when I left. They took pictures dated and time stamped 12:22pm (*EDIT) with no proof that it has been there since 7am…. I checked in via QR code at a post office in Collingwood around 11:30 and the restaurant at 12:05.

I live 2 suburbs away, not too sure how I can prove that my car was still in my apartment car port… I guess I could ask building management for CCTV screenshot of the front entrance as our car port is a Car lift system but it may not capture my number plate….

Out of principle I don't want to give these f****ers my hard earned money for no reason. Going through a Magistrates for $91 is a bit much. So peeved off right now.

Would like to know if people have had similar situations? If so, how did you fight it? Any proof etc?

P.S. I do not have a dash cam unfortunately. I do however, have geo tagging locations from Google Maps on where I went and the time stamps for when I was there on that day.

Poll Options

  • 365
    Fight it in Court
  • 10
    Pay the darn fine and move on
  • 6
    Don't pay it
  • 326
    Find proof - try to get CCTV screenshot of apartment entrance
Automotive

Comments

              • danyool on 11/08/2021 - 21:09
                +2

                @DannyC: Plot twist - someone stole your car, drove it to the exact same spot, had Pho for breakfast, inspector tags your car, then the thief returned your car to your apartment building! :O

  • Arcticsoldier on 09/08/2021 - 19:49
    +16

    I've gone through what you have and won.
    -The photo is when they give you a fine.
    -They have a notebook that they supposedly fill in when they first marked your car. (This is where I won over the judge)
    They fill in notebook when they give you a fine but they are suppose to fill it in to record the time they first spot your car. Because they do it after the fact, (no registration of vehicles being crossed out), considering they must do hundreds of cars a day, it was thrown out.
    I also got every evidence I could. What time I start work (to give a time when I parked) . you just need to paint a picture with all the information for the judge. You taking QR code in the area is not definite proof but it shows you were in the area at a certain time.

    • pharkurnell on 09/08/2021 - 21:25
      +2

      Some suburbs now have sensors in the road (mitcham shopping strip does) they dont always use a parking cop or book anymore..

      but having said that the sensor shouldn't lie….

      • Cheeper on 09/08/2021 - 22:02

        Devices like that can malfunction.

        • pharkurnell on 09/08/2021 - 22:09

          any device can malfunction… but good luck proving it.

        • idonotknowwhy on 10/08/2021 - 13:00
          +1

          Humans are more likely to malfunction.

      • DannyC on 10/08/2021 - 20:59

        Probably a sensor malfunction i'm assuming

    • Vote for Pedro on 10/08/2021 - 12:58
      +8

      100%.

      To issue a penalty notice they need a prima facie case. If you take it to court, it needs to be beyond reasonable doubt.

      The burden of proof for them is higher when challenged in court.

      • gromit on 10/08/2021 - 16:16

        beyond reasonable doubt is for criminal matters, not civil/liability matters. Wouldn't it be balance of probabilities in this case or for him to provide proof that he is not liable?

        • Vote for Pedro on 10/08/2021 - 17:14
          +2

          This isn’t a civil matter

          • gromit on 10/08/2021 - 18:24
            +1

            @Vote for Pedro: learn something new, didn't know local councils could issue criminal fines.

            • Vote for Pedro on 10/08/2021 - 19:24

              @gromit: You will find those enforcement officers, be they parking inspectors, council rangers, transport ticket inspectors will be classified as some form of authorised officer under certain legislation for the specific purpose of enforcement of said legislation.

  • Randxyz123 on 09/08/2021 - 20:03
    +5

    Do you have timeline on google maps enabled? Did you go anywhere before pho? Get petrol? Groceries etc? Anything that would prove you were at home or had your car elsewhere before you went for lunch? Even if you went with your partner and they had maps timeline on would help.

    I’d contact your building manager ASAP to get the footage before it gets removed/overwritten. I’d also ring the council and ask for proof you were there since 7am. You shouldn’t need to go to court for that.

    • DannyC on 10/08/2021 - 21:00
      +4

      Yep got Google map location data for the day it occurred, screenshot that and gonna submit it with the CCTV screenshot hopefully….

  • Davo1111 on 09/08/2021 - 20:17

    dashcam?

  • spersephone on 09/08/2021 - 20:49
    +8

    Do not give in - I am someone who totally believes that we should accept when we have done the wrong thing and pay a fine. However, this is clearly wrong, and it is absolutely disgusting that they have dropped to this level and are fabricating fines.

  • King Tightarse on 09/08/2021 - 21:01
    +1

    Once the fine is issued, councils (and courts) work entirely with evidence presented to them.
    Can you get stat decs from your neighbors saying they saw your car their (at home) that morning? Two or three would be great if possible
    "my car was in a secure car port at my apartment," Security camera footage with a timestamp would be the best. Might need to move quickly in case it gets recorded over, assuming you can obtain it.
    Basically you need evidence of any kind.

    • Montyjpm on 10/08/2021 - 19:54

      Is the onus on the op to prove his innocence or the council proving him guilty?

      • tomsco on 11/08/2021 - 08:36

        On the council, but it would depend on what evidence the court would accept as proof. If OP provides nothing and council provides bare minimum, the judge/magistrate may take council's side.

    • Ryanek on 09/08/2021 - 21:43
      +13

      Get ripped off is a global problem mate

    • smartazz104 on 11/08/2021 - 11:13
      +1

      Where the hell do you think you live?

  • KaTst3R on 09/08/2021 - 22:26

    Weirdly, i also got fined in the same suburb for the same reason. But it was my fault. I parked after 6pm thinking it was free night parking but it turns out to be permit only after 6pm.
    However, I found that to be pretty sneaky because I thought the sign meant if you had a permit, the 2 hour limit didnt apply to residents. It was kinda confusing.

    • Montyjpm on 10/08/2021 - 19:55
      +1

      That’s how they make money man. Confused folks and count $$

    • tomsco on 11/08/2021 - 08:37

      Found that once in a side street in Hawthorn. Prior to that, had never experienced night time only parking restrictions. Learned my lesson.

  • FareEvader on 09/08/2021 - 22:47
    +2

    DO NOT PAY!!!

    • SF3 on 09/08/2021 - 22:54
      +32

      Username checks out.

  • Mokr on 09/08/2021 - 22:56
    -1

    Councils actually lose money if people ask to review parking fines.

    I'd imagine if everyone did it the system would fall apart and your garbage would not get collected. House of cards.

    • HelpMeiCantSee on 10/08/2021 - 09:24

      We pay for garbage separately on our rates. Council is fkd.

    • smartazz104 on 11/08/2021 - 11:14

      Maybe the council building would like to be turned into a rubbish dump then.

    • Pelicannn on 09/08/2021 - 23:37
      +4

      Who shat in your cereal this morning?

      If you were in OP's situation and you would pay the fine, hand in your OzB badge.

  • Axelstrife on 10/08/2021 - 01:09
    +4

    What proof do they have you car was there for the entire time they claim?

    I always thought our society was innocent till proven guilty.

    • DannyC on 10/08/2021 - 21:02
      +1

      Their excuse was "it's in the system"…. lol

      • tkdbboy on 11/08/2021 - 09:07
        +3

        "Great to hear you have a digital record of it and is of ease to pass on to me. Let me know if you're unable to do this and why so I can have a record of it in my system for future reference."

      • P Plater Panda on 11/08/2021 - 14:56

        bring them to court and get them to say it under oath. Apparently if you're testifying under oath you don't have to provide documentation (ala NSW Health Minister)…

  • screensaver on 10/08/2021 - 02:22
    +2

    this is a form of corruption that needs to be exposed, so leep records of objections you have made, letters you have written etc, speak yo you state MP, ask them who you can complain too. You need to show the judge that you have tried exposing them

  • cerealJay on 10/08/2021 - 03:14
    +7

    If you're not lying, go to court. You'll be in the position of declaring "not guilty" which is not usually the case for parking infringements.

    Usually people who fight tickets in court are technically guilty but have some reason or story to get them out of the fine. Like I did when I was fined for parking in a loading zone in CBD. I was actually unloading though, and parked directly outside my own apartment building for 15 minutes when moving in. Imagine being fined for unloading in a loading zone outside your own home! I felt let down by the system, so requested a review in writing, and got knocked back by an automated "zero tolerance" BS response pretending to be human. So I challenged it in court. Fine was waived.

    • jjjaar on 10/08/2021 - 11:28
      +4

      There's an unknown element to loading zones where you need to have a specific vehicle type or loading permit. It goes against the whole "reasonable person" logic that most people would assume you can park there if you are just doing the act of loading/unloading, as opposed to having a business reason for it. More needs to be done to clarify if their intent is not as a reasonable person would assume.

      I'm glad your fine was waived. I've known people who haven't been as lucky.

      • Cronium on 10/08/2021 - 18:25
        +3

        Our laws are out of date.

        NSW its "a vehicle constructed principally for the conveyance of goods", which apparently includes station wagons, and even three wheeled motor bikes, but doesn't include SUVs (which can carry a lot more than many station wagons).

        In other words its bullshit :(

  • Euphemistic on 10/08/2021 - 05:22
    +1

    You rang them, next write formally asking for review outlining any proof you have. It may be enough to get you off despite the phone conversation. Of that fails go to court.

    Right now write down your movements and collect any evidence you can. Youikely won’t need CCTV footage in court, just receipts, QR check in history, google location services records.

  • TEER3X on 10/08/2021 - 06:31
    +7

    You're going about it the wrong way. Put the onus back on them, they're accusing you, the burden of truth lies with them.

    Ask for photos, there should be two, an initial one and another showing you've exceeded the time. (See link below)

    Submit a request for review, most councils have this. Check their website.

    https://www.yarracity.vic.gov.au/services/parking/parking-fi…

  • gidxg03 on 10/08/2021 - 07:58
    +15

    Joe Lycett gives very good advice on how he got out of a parking fine: https://youtu.be/2Gkiw7zpULo

    • John3000 on 10/08/2021 - 10:20
      +1

      That was a very entertaining watch…highly recommended. 🤣

      • htc on 10/08/2021 - 13:36

        Love it. It just shows some similarities between council across Commonwealth country, England, Victoria etc

    • Poor Ass on 11/08/2021 - 07:33

      Classic

  • djkelly69 on 10/08/2021 - 09:26
    +3

    Tell them you are not disputing the fact that you were there at 12.22pm, but rather their assertion that 'their system' has you there from 7am. The system must be based on something, so request evidence of this.

  • HeWhoKnows on 10/08/2021 - 09:30
    +1

    " I checked in via QR code at a post office in Collingwood around 11:30 and the restaurant at 12:05."

    Should be sufficient evidence

  • lovepub on 10/08/2021 - 09:52
    +2

    Sucks….time wasted dealing with this crap.
    Bad luck OP.
    Would fight it in court with enough evidence. Will definitely go your way….but with the expense of loosing a day or two sorting this out.

    I wonder if you can get compensated for these fcuk ups from these motefkcers

    • John3000 on 10/08/2021 - 10:16

      I believe you can…but it's even more complicated than just going to court.

    • Love a bargain on 10/08/2021 - 14:21

      Don't think OP would be able to claim compensation for his own time even if the court orders the council to pay their costs.

    • DannyC on 10/08/2021 - 21:05
      +1

      Ye it sucks cause I have to waste my time fighting this. It is purely on principle. So dodgy I can only imagine how many others have gotten in a similar situation but do not have good enough evidence to fight it.

      If I knew I was in the wrong i'd suck up and pay but I wasn't so gotta fight it.

      • pharkurnell on 10/08/2021 - 21:27

        Ye it sucks cause I have to waste my time fighting this

        But you dont have to.

        • DannyC on 10/08/2021 - 21:33
          +3

          Maybe but i'm not gonna be smacked around like that when I know this is wrong. Out of principle.

  • 82norm on 10/08/2021 - 10:01
    +8

    Have you seen the photos from the council of your car? Do u have someone who can do a stat dec on your behalf as to your whereabouts at 7am? What about any CCTV cameras of where you were supposedly parked, can you capture any evidence there (yes it would be time consuming to do, but you maybe surprised what may be available). This is on principle so you shouldn’t give up. You need to FU that council ranger.
    I think if you went to court (dress smartly), speak with humility explain to the magistrate the situation, explain you would be more than happy to pay the fine if you were wrong, but you’re doing this on principle and you don’t like wasting courts time etc, I think you have a good chance of winning.
    Pls post your outcome. Good luck.

    • Montyjpm on 10/08/2021 - 20:01

      It is for them to prove he is there longer than 2 hours and not him to prove where he was at 7am. We’re using the British law system and not the French.

  • John3000 on 10/08/2021 - 10:15

    They handed out the COVID payments willy nilly…they already made them taxable, and you didn't think they were gonna pull this kinda crap to get them back?

    There is no free lunch…but it's not supposed to have a $91 surcharge either. 🤨

    • jackspratt on 10/08/2021 - 11:53
      +1

      They handed out the COVID payments willy nilly…they already made them taxable, and you didn't think they were gonna pull this kinda crap to get them back?

      "They" being the City of Yarra, presumably?

      • idonotknowwhy on 10/08/2021 - 12:58

        I think "they" are the ones who pay those covid-spreadding squads who go around wiping every traffic light button and letterbox with the same cloth right?

  • OzHunterNSW on 10/08/2021 - 10:52
    +7

    In your pocket is the most powerful tool you could ever possess.

    Your phone also has a tracking history. It can tell you where, and when, you were at any given moment.

    You say you were home - gather your security footage. Gather your phone data, and table it in front of the Magistrate.

    Unless you are not telling us the full story.

  • ATTS on 10/08/2021 - 11:35

    2 hour limit, after 6pm it is a Permit Zone).

    Just curious did the sign say permit zone after hours?

    I never seen a sign say permit zone after hours before

    Am i right to assume if it doesnt say permit zone after hours you can park as long as you want outside the hours

    • JayEmmGee on 11/08/2021 - 09:39

      Have you never been to any inner suburb? Any street near bars/cafes/restaurants/shops is generally public parking during the day and residents permit parking after hours

    • jackspratt on 10/08/2021 - 11:56

      Unlike your good self, most of the "Experts" on this thread seem to have some principles.

      • popsiee on 10/08/2021 - 13:44
        -2

        Is there a term some term besides Impatient Bugger for someone who has a fear of waiting in queues ?

    • kiitos on 10/08/2021 - 12:00
      +2

      What?

  • daowiies on 10/08/2021 - 12:46
    +1

    If you have the evidence and you didn't do anything wrong, fight it and win. I was in a similar situation because most of the scum that councils hire to be inspectors can't even read the damn meter themselves. It was an easy win at that.

    Contest it via the fine website and they'll get back to you in a few weeks/months. Make sure you have all your evidence prior though.

  • idonotknowwhy on 10/08/2021 - 12:57
    +3

    Dashcam footage?
    CCTV at your apartment with the car there? (call up the body-corporate QUICKLY as these things don't persist forever)
    Got an Android phone? I think google track your location 24/7 and you can view it somewhere in the google account web interface.

    Look into TEER3X's post above, looks like they need 2 photos (the one at 7am, which they don't have)?

  • mdavant on 10/08/2021 - 13:15
    -1

    How old are you?

    If under 20 or over 60, there is no way you would have been awake before 7am.

    • Gervais fanboy on 10/08/2021 - 13:28
      +6

      I know you are only trying to be funny but the 60+ people actually wake up quite early..
      Old people like to get out and get their newspapers/groceries so they can beat all that morning traffic madness.

      • OneJay on 10/08/2021 - 14:33
        +1

        I know some 60+ people wake up around 4:30-5am because they’re already in bed by 8pm the night before.

        They’re also the ones calling radio talkback at 4 in the morning…

        • idonotknowwhy on 10/08/2021 - 15:30

          Yeah that's why the RSL has a seniors hour from 5:30pm with cheaper food.
          I read something in Mathew Walker's book about why we sleep, old people produce melatonin earlier or something.
          They can off-set this early sleep by wearing sunglasses in the morning.

      • mdavant on 10/08/2021 - 18:36
        -3

        Thanks for pointing this out.

        I never realised /s

  • Spicytunaroll on 10/08/2021 - 13:50
    +4

    What pho did you get?

    • lilkid28 on 10/08/2021 - 15:32
      +4

      Hope its Pho Hung Voung 2, it's the best.

      • DannyC on 10/08/2021 - 15:40
        +6

        Hell yes it was Hung Voung 2. Been going there for years. Tasty :-)

  • bejahi on 10/08/2021 - 14:15
    +5

    Okay so I'm confused. Everyone in this thread seems to be focused on how he can provide evidence he was not parked there at 7am.

    Isn't how the law works that the council has to prove he was?

    • Quantumcat on 10/08/2021 - 14:25

      Their "evidence" might be a stat dec from the parking officer, OP would then want to have evidence it is a lie.

      • Gervais fanboy on 10/08/2021 - 15:10
        +1

        But can’t the op counter that with a statutory declaration of his own ?

    • Love a bargain on 10/08/2021 - 14:25

      Yes but when it becomes a "he says, she says" situation, it helps to make the other side (or the court, should it come to that) that the council's claim is unreasonable

  • neyo on 10/08/2021 - 15:17

    Add poll option for council to provide proof of your car there at 7am. Delete all others

  • Ace26 on 10/08/2021 - 15:18
    +1

    Just go to court and its them who have to prove your car was parked there for longer than 2 hours. All you have to do is to claim you didn't. Simples.

    • popsiee on 10/08/2021 - 15:25
      -7

      Great idea let OP waste maybe a few more hundred bucks hopefully not over 1K total yet to save how much again ?

      How clear do I need to make my point ?

      • smartazz104 on 10/08/2021 - 16:02
        +1

        What point are you trying to make exactly?

        • tomsco on 11/08/2021 - 08:56
          +4

          The point they're trying to make is they are talking out of their arse.

      • Ace26 on 10/08/2021 - 21:37
        +1

        OP doesn't have to pay any money to go to court. He doesn't need to lawyer up for this. It's a matter of principle, and OP said so as well.

  • apple2016 on 10/08/2021 - 15:21
    +1

    not too sure how I can prove that my car was still in my apartment car port

    If you decide to go to court, its would be the other way round. The council need to prove you are guilty.

  • Drakesy on 10/08/2021 - 15:27
    +1

    Surely they need to provide evidence that they knew your car was there from 7:00 am, such as chalk marks etc.

  • dr on 10/08/2021 - 15:53
    +1

    You will probably have a receipt from a restaurant with date and time printed, depending how you paid you may have debit/credit card record in your internet banking. With those QR code check-ins it would be reasonable to assume that you were not there since 7:00AM.

    If you have other QR code stamps from other places few hours earlier, or any other reasonable confirmation you were not around (e.g. work meeting at 9:00AM, Coles checkin at 9:30, statutory declaration of friend, family that you were at home…) then you have reasonable grounds to have the ticket dismissed.

  • smartazz104 on 10/08/2021 - 16:01

    What kind of sensors do the parking spots have?

  • Kamsi on 10/08/2021 - 16:12
    +1

    You would think at this darkest period of our time some leniency and human decency prevail.

    • pharkurnell on 10/08/2021 - 21:25

      what when money and councils are involved? No chance

  • w37hsyea on 10/08/2021 - 16:22

    I haven't practiced for a while - but in Victoria I'd be taking the option to contest on the fine. Victoria (e.g. VCAT/Magistrates) .

    First step is apply for an FOI of sensor logs for the parking bay on that day. This will prove your car entered and exited on the times you believe.

    • dazeller on 10/08/2021 - 17:07
      +2

      Unless the sensor is faulty and that's what they based their infringement notice on.

      • JayEmmGee on 11/08/2021 - 09:41

        FOI the service records as well then

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